Oakland shooting.

[voteneg]

I'm sure some of you may have heard about this story already, but I felt it was worth mentioning (unfortunately.)

 

On New Years an Oakland Transit Authority Officer (BART Officer) shot and killed Oscar Grant. The reason this has become such a controversy is because he was shot while on his stomach with his hands behind his back.

 

 

 

The victim Oscar Grant died shortly thereafter.

 

I think it's pretty clear there was no reason to shoot this man. With as many officers as there were around it should be safe to say that there was no threat.

 

Not that I feel all law enforcement officers and agencies are bad (not by a long shot) but the handling of this situation by Oakland authorities has been truly dispicable. Not only did they not discharge the officer immediately, they took so long to act that the officer in question resigned first... I don't believe any charges have been filed either.

 

Because of the Officers surprised reaction some believe that the officer may have thought he grabbed his taser. Personally I do not believe this considering the tasers are a bright yellow color (as seen by another officer towards in the end of the video) but even so if the man was so careless as to make such a mistake I still feel he is guilty of involuntary manslaughter at a minimum.

 

The video is pretty clear. I have no idea what they need to continue investigating.

 

Edited January 8, 2009 by voteneg

[Girish]

Jeez...that dumbass officer should be jailed and prosecuted for murder. Although it seems as if the victim wasn't cooperating, there was no f*cking reason to shoot him. Don't they have stun guns or something?

[voteneg]

Jeez...that dumbass officer should be jailed and prosecuted for murder. Although it seems as if the victim wasn't cooperating, there was no f*cking reason to shoot him. Don't they have stun guns or something?

Right I'm sure they were pulled off the train for being rowdy and obnoxious or something (it was New Years) and you can see the victim Oscar Grant struggling a bit... but even if the victim was being a prick that doesn't deserve being shot execution style whilst being held down by other officers.

[Tetsuo2501]

yeah, that's pretty bad.

 

but this isn't the first or last time the law has done something terrible, even if by accident.

 

See: John Africa

[ryuclan]

Wow, the man is on the ground with three guys on him and one decides to shoot...The video tells it all. There may have been a struggle but it couldn't have warranted that. Also Police are not supposed to shoot to kill. I know police are trained to work on instinct rather than allow their thoughts to get in the way, but damn, the dude was practically defenseless.

 

 

People wonder why we're afraid of the police in the first place.

[Rebel]

That is bad. But its happened many times before, I know there was something over here sometime ago when the police killed this guy because they believed he was some terrorist because he had a bag with him or, something a long those lines.

[Mad Tony]

What a dumbass. There was absolutely no reason to shoot him.

 

Fortunately though, this kind of thing is certainly not common. I don't think people should judge the entire police force on the actions of this one man.

 

Conspiracy theorists jump on this kind of thing though, as they use it to further all sorts of wild theories. I can see this thread turning into a full-blown tin foil fest soon.

[Damo.]

That is bad. But its happened many times before, I know there was something over here sometime ago when the police killed this guy because they believed he was some terrorist because he had a bag with him or, something a long those lines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Charles_de_Menezes

 

It's a travesty that they can get away with this.

[Machida]

I don't think people should judge the entire police force on the actions of this one man.

 

 

The police supposedly go through a training regime. You're only as good as your weakest member. Well that member was pretty dire.

[Typhus]

That is bad. But its happened many times before, I know there was something over here sometime ago when the police killed this guy because they believed he was some terrorist because he had a bag with him or, something a long those lines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Charles_de_Menezes

 

It's a travesty that they can get away with this.

Oh come on, it was quite understandable. There had just been a terrorist attack.

Is it any wonder that mistakes were made?

[darthYENIK]

Didn't someone post about this, and was quickly sent to the Youtube topic?

 

It's lame. I've ridden the BART many times. Strange sh*t seems to happen. People jump or collapse onto the rail, and are hit by oncoming trains. Once I was riding into San Francisco from Oakland, and was delayed a half hour because somebody fainted and was hit by a train. And the BART officers seem pretty useless. Usually follow ethnic minorities around, and ignore that group of white teens harassing old ladies. But seriously, what cops don't do that?

[Randall Flagg]

Yeah I was watching the riot over this live last night.

 

I'm not to far from oakland, Im over in the mid pennisula area, RWC. Represent

[Rebel]

That is bad. But its happened many times before, I know there was something over here sometime ago when the police killed this guy because they believed he was some terrorist because he had a bag with him or, something a long those lines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Charles_de_Menezes

 

It's a travesty that they can get away with this.

That's the one. They even got away with it in the end which is even worse. Looks like police can't do their job all the time in keeping their cool when needed.

[Damo.]

 

That is bad. But its happened many times before, I know there was something over here sometime ago when the police killed this guy because they believed he was some terrorist because he had a bag with him or, something a long those lines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Charles_de_Menezes

 

It's a travesty that they can get away with this.

Oh come on, it was quite understandable. There had just been a terrorist attack.

Is it any wonder that mistakes were made?

They shot him at least five times into the face at point blank range while he was restrained. That's a bit much.

[voteneg]

I'm sure I'll get a lot of flak for this. But I think part of the problem is that whenever we get a group of people who feel they are oppressed or singled out somehow, they become overly sensitive of the actions made by the perceived persecutor. So in this case you have a large group of urban blacks who feel they are being mistreated and when encounters are made with the authorities they react in a more aggressive angry resistive manner. Whereas someone who doesn't feel they've been slighted is likely more willing to cooperate and thus avoid situations where tensions escalate.

 

I'm sure that sounds racist. It's really not... I think the same thing happens (despite racial origin) when a group feels oppressed. Past and current examples could include... Turks in Germany and France. Irish in Great Britain. European immigrants to the U.S at the turn of the century. Muslims in England. Hell even rebels versus yankees. I could be wrong about some of those, I'm not exactly an expert in the area. But regardless I think the principal still holds.

 

I at least feel it is true for young black culture in the U.S. to take an especially anti police stance. As such they gain a reputation as being hoodlums and uncooperative... Police then keep an extra eye and guard on them, the extra attention from the police contributes to the feeling of oppression, some poor black kid gets detained and throws a struggle because he feels it's unwarranted, some officer overreacts and blam... dead black kid... and the viscous cycle repeats itself.

Edited January 8, 2009 by voteneg

[Saggy]

 

Because of the Officers surprised reaction some believe that the officer may have thought he grabbed his taser. Personally I do not believe this considering the tasers are a bright yellow color (as seen by another officer towards in the end of the video) but even so if the man was so careless as to make such a mistake I still feel he is guilty of involuntary manslaughter at a minimum.

I really doubt he would have made that mistake. I've never handled one of those tasers, but I've seen enough about them to know that you generally can tell the difference between the light plastic frame of it, and the heavy metal frame of a pistol. Do police officer's carry their weapon with the saftey on at all? You'd think he'd realize it was a pistol just by the feel of it, even if there's some extra mechanics involved with drawing either a pistol or taser. I mean, you'd figure those tasers have to be set before fired.

 

I think it was just a misfire by the way the officer reacted. Those types of incidents aren't really that uncommon, there's even another video going around of a female officer accidentally discharging a round into a suspect's back.

 

 

I don't think that excuses the police any however. I've said for a long time that police officers need better weapons training, or just better training in general to allow them not to rely on their weapons so much. Shooting unarmed people like this is one thing, but there are way more getting shot because their cell phone looks like a pistol or because someone is running a car toward them... And then people wonder why an officer freaks out, draws his weapon, and accidentally kills a man like this.

 

I really don't think it was intentional, just by the reaction of the officer, and the fact that it was a single shot. That doesn't really make it any better though.

 

 

some poor black kid gets detained and throws a struggle because he feels it's unwarranted, some officer overreacts and blam... dead black kid... and the viscous cycle repeats itself.

 

That's the black kid's fault? Officers need to deal with unruly suspects, why they're unruly makes no difference. Shooting them in the back is not the right tactic. I don't think there's that much of a vicious cycle at play as much as there is racial profiling at play. If young black men feel oppressed or singled-out by the police, are you just discounting the reason for that? Maybe, perhaps, most of these young black men have seen incidents like this where there wasn't the fortunate occurrence of a camera around. I have Mexican friends that tell me about my own police department taking people out into the woods and beating them silly.

 

If people feel they're being mistreated, they probably are. I don't see how it is the young man's fault in this scenario at all. There was probably abuse and mistreatment occuring far before the shooting ever took place to warrant his actions, we just don't want to admit that because of the extra liberties we need to give police to do their job. Instead we twist and turn it to make it seem like, "Oh, that's a young black men, he must just be righteously indignant and being a problem for the officer." When do people stop giving the police credit? I'm pretty sure none of the people on the train are.

Edited January 8, 2009 by SagaciousKJB

[baptiste]

Its stupid and unwarranted, but I understand the kind of pressure these officers can be under. Or I can at least imagine.

[anuj]

That officer is going to be buttf*cked over this, but I can only imagine that he has to live with the fact he brained some dude through sheer negligence. That might be punishment enough.

 

It is absolutely f*cking amazing the amount of officers that would be outshot by f*cking boy scouts. Sometimes I think these guys don't even f*cking know where the safety is on their weapon.

[TECHN9CiAN]

That officer is going to be buttf*cked over this, but I can only imagine that he has to live with the fact he brained some dude through sheer negligence. That might be punishment enough.

 

It is absolutely f*cking amazing the amount of officers that would be outshot by f*cking boy scouts. Sometimes I think these guys don't even f*cking know where the safety is on their weapon.

That's not enough of a punishment at all... I doubt he regrets doing what he did. He might only regret getting caught.

[voteneg]

 

That's the black kid's fault?  Officers need to deal with unruly suspects, why they're unruly makes no difference.  Shooting them in the back is not the right tactic.  I don't think there's that much of a vicious cycle at play as much as there is racial profiling at play.  If young black men feel oppressed or singled-out by the police, are you just discounting the reason for that?  Maybe, perhaps, most of these young black men have seen incidents like this where there wasn't the fortunate occurrence of a camera around.  I have Mexican friends that tell me about my own police department taking people out into the woods and beating them silly.

 

If people feel they're being mistreated, they probably are.  I don't see how it is the young man's fault in this scenario at all.  There was probably abuse and mistreatment occuring far before the shooting ever took place to warrant his actions, we just don't want to admit that because of the extra liberties we need to give police to do their job.  Instead we twist and turn it to make it seem like, "Oh, that's a young black men, he must just be righteously indignant and being a problem for the officer."  When do people stop giving the police credit?  I'm pretty sure none of the people on the train are.

I think your not catching onto my point as I intended. I'm not discussing the particular merits of perceived persecution real or not. I definitely believe the black community is unfairly treated... however that's not crucial to my argument. My point is that regardless whether or not a group is actually being treated unfairly... they will... so long as they believe so, react in a more suspicious, aggressive, and or reactionary manner to their perceived persecutors.

 

So we go back to my viscous circle. People feel they are oppressed... they react to police unnecessarily, police in return react with unnecessary force, someone does something stupid, oppressed feeling people then feel even more oppressed and the cycle repeats.

 

In addition you seem to confuse my observation that the victim did struggle as a warrant for the cops to shoot him... this is certainly not the case, I've consistently argued that it was completely without reason.

 

What I am saying is that I am noticing a pattern of overreaction at every step in the process... and that overreaction breeds more of the same.

Edited January 8, 2009 by voteneg

[Mike Tequeli]

That officer is going to be buttf*cked over this, but I can only imagine that he has to live with the fact he brained some dude through sheer negligence. That might be punishment enough.

 

It is absolutely f*cking amazing the amount of officers that would be outshot by f*cking boy scouts. Sometimes I think these guys don't even f*cking know where the safety is on their weapon.

The police never get in trouble for things like this. Look at Rodney King, or Sean Bell. Or one of the many times the NYPD has gunned someone down because they were holding something that looks like a gun (keys and wallets).

[Davo the Assassin]

That officer is going to be buttf*cked over this, but I can only imagine that he has to live with the fact he brained some dude through sheer negligence. That might be punishment enough.

 

It is absolutely f*cking amazing the amount of officers that would be outshot by f*cking boy scouts. Sometimes I think these guys don't even f*cking know where the safety is on their weapon.

That's not enough of a punishment at all... I doubt he regrets doing what he did. He might only regret getting caught.

I think that's a bit unfair. Taking someones life, especially when you don't intend to, is something I would say that'll haunt you to the end of your days.

 

However, I would say that something more should come of this obviously, that's ridiculously negligent.

[TECHN9CiAN]

 

That officer is going to be buttf*cked over this, but I can only imagine that he has to live with the fact he brained some dude through sheer negligence. That might be punishment enough.

 

It is absolutely f*cking amazing the amount of officers that would be outshot by f*cking boy scouts. Sometimes I think these guys don't even f*cking know where the safety is on their weapon.

That's not enough of a punishment at all... I doubt he regrets doing what he did. He might only regret getting caught.

I think that's a bit unfair. Taking someones life, especially when you don't intend to, is something I would say that'll haunt you to the end of your days.

 

However, I would say that something more should come of this obviously, that's ridiculously negligent.

True, but what makes you so sure he didn't intend to? This reminds me of OJ Simpson... They knew what they were doing, they just didn't think about the consiquences. Same applies to both.

 

Tazer or gun, weapons are ALWAYS supposed to be the last resort when all else fails. What about some pepper spray, wrestling or some billy clubbing? Then again, the guy was down already... I call bullsh*t.

Edited January 8, 2009 by the7ftmidget

[Saggy]

 

Stuff, abridged to avoid quote train.

No, I understood what you were saying, I'm just saying that the police shouldn't be over-reacting at all. I mean, some people's mis-trust of the police may cause them to act suspiciously, or over-react and become uncooperative. The police officers are supposed to be trained to deal with exactly those situations. I mean, what, are you expecting police to put someone under arrest, and the guy act all civilized and courteous? The police don't either, so whether one group of people acts more suspicious or non cooperative, police officers are supposed to apply the exact same training. I mean, not much of this is relevant to this video; I think the officer simply misfired. However, was pulling the weapon justified in the first place? Black or white, does a struggle to put cuffs on someone merit the drawing of a firearm? I think in most cases the answer is yes, and so I don't really think the officer did anything wrong here except f*ck up and shoot a man accidentally.

 

Then look at something like the Rodney King case. Are the police supposed to viciously beat people? I don't think so, even if they aren't acting co-operatively, what's supposed to matter is the training they receive. When they're trained to draw a weapon in a circumstance like what happened here they will, and then when accidents happen there's hell to pay.

 

I guess the question is: Why don't we hear or see white people being shot and killed like this? I'm beginning to question whether the police even pursue white people that often. It's not as if there's not any white, street-level criminals that would behave in the same manner as Mr. Grant ( not insinuating Mr. Grant is a criminal, but he was treated like one ) did, so why aren't the police detaining them on the ground in very physical confrontations? Is it because white people co-operate more, or is it because black people are being targeted more? Frankly, I'm more apt to believe the latter.

 

 

Tazer or gun, weapons are ALWAYS supposed to be the last resort

 

Exactly what I believe, but I've been questioning whether weapons use by the police is last resort for a long time. Here is a post in D&D discussing that exact question and things very related to this.

Edited January 8, 2009 by SagaciousKJB

[fuckindumass]

I guess the question is: Why don't we hear or see white people being shot and killed like this?

Here's just one. link There's many more, everywhere. It's not 'news' when they kill whites.

[Gutslab]

Yep, it happens a lot. Today I read two other incidents of police that resorted to killing the suspects. The difference here, is that it was captured by witnesses and spread on the internet very fast. It's sad that law enforcement can really get away with this kind of stuff, and unfortunately it won't be the last time it happens. You know how the motto goes for police, 'shoot first, ask questions later'.

[TECHN9CiAN]

I guess the question is: Why don't we hear or see white people being shot and killed like this?

Here's just one. link There's many more, everywhere. It's not 'news' when they kill whites.

Bullpoop. Answer me this: Why don't we hear or see on the news reports of school shoot outs in predominantly black/hispanic schools? A white school is shot up, instant front page and first topic on the TV news. If there weren't any riots in oakland, we probably wouldn't have heard of it...

[Gutslab]

 

I guess the question is: Why don't we hear or see white people being shot and killed like this?

Here's just one. link There's many more, everywhere. It's not 'news' when they kill whites.

Bullpoop. Answer me this: Why don't we hear or see on the news reports of school shoot outs in predominantly black/hispanic schools? A white school is shot up, instant front page and first topic on the TV news. If there weren't any riots in oakland, we probably wouldn't have heard of it...

Opinion and also it's hard to measure how much media coverage there has been on white vs. minorities in these kinds of events. I do agree with you though. When I was near DC, it seemed like every week a student was being killed on or near a school. Sometimes it was random, other times they were targeted for gang/drug reasons. It got to the point in which you just got used to it and blocked it from your mind. Of course it made the local news, but you never heard it on something like CNN.

 

edit: I should mention they were also minority students, since they made up like 97% of the area schools student body.

Edited January 8, 2009 by pokemon4ever

[TECHN9CiAN]

I guess the question is: Why don't we hear or see white people being shot and killed like this?

Here's just one. link There's many more, everywhere. It's not 'news' when they kill whites.

Bullpoop. Answer me this: Why don't we hear or see on the news reports of school shoot outs in predominantly black/hispanic schools? A white school is shot up, instant front page and first topic on the TV news. If there weren't any riots in oakland, we probably wouldn't have heard of it...

Opinion and also it's hard to measure how much media coverage there has been on white vs. minorities in these kinds of events. I do agree with you though. When I was near DC, it seemed like every week a student was being killed on or near a school. Sometimes it was random, other times they were targeted for gang/drug reasons. It got to the point in which you just got used to it and blocked it from your mind. Of course it made the local news, but you never heard it on something like CNN.

 

edit: I should mention they were also minority students, since they made up like 97% of the area schools student body.

Exactly.

 

Off topic: what's with the Compton google map image?

[voteneg]

 

I mean, what, are you expecting police to put someone under arrest, and the guy act all civilized and courteous?

I do actually... shocking. I think people just need to stop overreacting... the police and those being detained (regardless of race) when you start putting a struggle up things are much more apt to turn south in a hurry.

 

When a law officer has pulled you aside you should cooperate within reason and so long as he is not breaching his authority. That's called common decency. To be plainly honest if all three of those gentlemen sat back against the wall quietly, didn't lip off, and didn't physically provoke the officers none of this would have happened. With that said there also is no reason for that officer to have pulled his gun. I do not condone the use of excessive force or overreaction.

 

If I was pulled off a train and set aside like that I would have been cooperative and passive. Clearly these gentlemen were not, likely because they felt targeted (perhaps rightfully so) but behaving the way did, fighting with the officers, is not the proper time and place to address those concerns. The better course would have been to peaceably cooperate, and if they weren't let go with a warning that night, they could have later brought it up with the ACLU and filed complaints against the transit authority.

 

I believe there were two wrongs here... first and foremost the officer's decision to pull his gun (with the intention to fire or not.) Second and minor compared to the first is the decision to be indignant and fight with these officers.

 

It's a cycle. A self fulfilling prophecy. If you fight ans struggle with an officer because you think his actions are unjust or because your afraid he's gonna hit you with a club or shoot you, your more likely to make the officer think your dangerous and he or she will use more and more violent force to restrain you. Whereas if you just cooperated you'd probably end up without bruise or scrape.

 

I will concede that there are your rogue racist cops out there looking to throw down a beat down for whatever reason... but those certainly are not the majority. Hopefully those types of bastards get pulled off the streets as soon as possible... but the way to deal with them isn't to give them any reason to do anything... and if they do you won't be sinking to their level... and hopefully there's witnesses too.

Edited January 8, 2009 by voteneg