Etiquette

[Rhoda]

If you feel you can't full well comment without sound like a nagging goat, then by all means dish out praise, but specify which part in particular you like, maybe even suggesting how it could be reworded for future reference.

 

And while you may feel like your picking holes in the way it's written rather than the story itself, you'll find that this aids in the very way the narrative flows. If I read a very poorly written piece of work, I find it very hard to follow the story as it's intended. Sure, it's down to personal interpretation but it does play a big part.

[Oxidizer]

Since when did I say I can't comment well and only use praise because of that? The only reason I keep things simple is because, like I said, it's obviously not a wanted part of the feedback. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this very debate.

 

And I never said the constructive critism of grammatical errors and wording wasn't useful, otherwise I'd have knocked off the word 'constructive' and just classed it as critism.

 

I've always stated that the critique is useful but has no relevance to the actual story, and that we should start to review all aspects of a piece (i.e. what I'm saying).

[Rhoda]

Fair play Andy, I get what you're saying. Needless to say, I don't think you're our biggest worry when it comes to crap feedback. However, try the ol' paragraph method more, see if you're comfortable enough.

[Oxidizer]

I'm glad we finally see eye-to-eye and people are starting to get what I actually mean now. Though I dunno why it was so hard. /bitching

 

I'm also glad we can debate about these things! It's healthy and a good thing that we can share our opinions and argue them with each other. You all know that what's said in here, stays in here, and that it's never personal because I like you all, both as friends and as writers. I just think that if we respect each other's views and actually take them into account then this etiquette thing has a good chance of working. There's so many more aspects to a story than how it's grammatically written, and we shouldn't just limit ourselves to focusing on that.

 

But like I said, giving quality feedback regarding development on a character or storyline basis isn't as easy as correcting the grammar, as it takes time to actually develop a character and such, and you need to be genuinely interested in them. So we can't really expect that kind of thing straight away (which I'm also, if not more, guilty of).

[Typhus]

I made a thread once where people could talk in-dept about their characters. It fizzled out

[Oxidizer]

I remember. But that was about our villains if I recall rightly, and only to deconstruct them in order to find out what made them tick and to discuss their complexity. Or am I wrong?

 

What I mean is to actually review the characters' (both protagonists and antagonists) as it's happening, with feedback to their stories.

 

I guess people really don't want feedback to their well-thought out characters and storylines after all.

[Rhoda]

I can't see there being a problem with discussing such things, because stories and characters are constantly in flow, with many of us writing more and more stories as we progress. Unfortunately, some of us write shorts (moreso than novels/novellas anyway) and there isn't much time to really explore the characters, not as much as in something much larger and on a much bigger scale at least.

[Oxidizer]

That's something I can take into account. But shorts don't necessarily mean you can't develop a character.

 

I've got something on its way that's only a one-shot and there is massive character and story development in that, and it would be a complete shame and almost waste of time if it were all overlooked (I understand that's not exactly a good example given my track record of not getting things done , but it's a good example to illustrate one of my points).

[Rhoda]

Of course, there will always be exceptions, it isn't like what I've said about shorts is a rule. It's more of generalization, as shorts are very fast paced narratives usually, with rather basic character development. Then again, I'm seeing more and more character driven tales here.

[Oxidizer]

Exactly! So why is that overlooked in favour of the grammatical errors? Sure enough it helps developes one's skills in the writing department, but it's got next to nothing to do with the actual story. I'm not being snipey, but it seems like I'm the only one getting that.

[Rhoda]

It's not overlooked intentionally, but it's rarely touched upon I think because it's so hard sometimes to nail spot on what the author is trying to achieve. With grammar and spelling, it's so much easier to comment on because it's something literal that we know exists and we know the way it is intended to be used.

 

With several plots and characters, it can be so easy to misinterpret said areas, which may cause audience bias (through reading others opinions first) and even author offense or torment.

[Oxidizer]

That I can understand perfectly, and why I said it's good to only leave that sort of feedback to pieces you genuinely like and to wait until there's actual development gone on. As for biases being made, I think you should be reading stories with an open minded view anyway. Of course you're gonna have your favorite characters or ones you don't particuarly like, but any sensible person wouldn't force those views and opinions on people in their feedback.

[Rhoda]

Not at all, and I didn't want to refer to force, but I mean certain audiences will read other comments and feel influenced, perhaps understanding their view and adopting it as their own. There's nothing at all wrong with that in the slightest, but said member of the audience may have originally had another opinion on the character/plot which they held in high regard, discarding it after seeing one that may have made more sense to them.

 

Man, I'm loving this discussion sh*t we got goin' on.

[Oxidizer]

That's why I said they should read the story with an open mind and state their own opinions in their feedback.

Edited January 10, 2009 by Oxidizer

[Eminence]

As for biases being made, I think you should be reading stories with an open minded view anyway.

So, for example, by not reading stories you think you won't be interested in at first glance?

[Oxidizer]

No. That's not what I meant. I actually read them but I soon realize that the storyline or whatever's not what I'm into, so why should I have to continue reading the story?

[Eminence]

I'm just making the statement that it's not reading something with an open mind and free from bias if you make those initial claims and decide not to read anymore. If you have read it, why not offer some form of opinion? Make a comment showing your reaction - maybe you don't like it and aren't too interested in carrying on, but maybe say what was good about it, or somewhere that can be improved. Offer anything.

[Oxidizer]

But if I did that it wouldn't be very constructive at all, would it? I wouldn't be able to offer 'anything' because I wouldn't have read enough of it. Why? Because I'm not interested in that type of story! You can't force people to read something they don't like.

 

Look, I'm not gonna repeat myself anymore. I'm clearly wasting my time trying to get through to you all, so I'm sorry - for you - for not getting it. Obviously the only feedback you guys want for your work is your grammatical errors being quoted and corrected.

Edited January 10, 2009 by Oxidizer

[Pat]

Another problem here is that not everyone is good at critiquing. We have a lot of people who can write, as well as pick out errors and offer suggestions, but some of us read stories for the stories. I'm one of those people. If I try really hard, I can find errors, but in all honesty, I'd rather just read the story for a little enjoyment.

 

Obviously errors need to be addressed, to help improve talent, but a lot of posts on page one seem to think that everyone needs to criticize each story. I haven't seen one story where there wasn't at least one post which pointed out and corrected errors, and a lot of the time, I've seen topics with the same error being addressed again and again and again. It'll only happen more if people are forced to critique stories.

 

I also don't understand the logic behind critiquing a story even if it isn't a theme you care for. I mean, that makes no sense at all.

Edited January 10, 2009 by Pat

[Eminence]

Poem? I can't.

 

Therefore,

 

I will.

 

-

 

What are we?

 

To write is to think, and

We should think to write

About all of the

 

Different

 

Things that we want to.

 

We may judge and loath,

And persevere

When need be. But why must we?

 

Why isn’t it simple enough to just have that one thing that we can do no matter what, something that flows effortlessly through our minds and souls and can reach out to others with an almighty impact that is, more often than not,

 

Individual,

 

Untouched,

Invincible.

 

We are writers.

[The Unvirginiser]

I think this thread has hit home, already I'm seeing improvement.

[Wanted Assailant]

Honestly, I haven't read or reviewed (which is lesser than pieces read) a lot of stories, differing from my days of normally looking over after piece after piece. Truthfully, I don't think you can expect for everyone to fully commit themselves to doing things such as this. Plus, from my perspective, there's been a truckload of pieces flowing in the on WD bank, all good and equal; it all seemed to appear around Christmas time. And in no way do I have an open mind to critique a story like an literature biologist if I do, or do not like the story present.