Eminence Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 A short while ago, Candarelli offered us a few views on the state of the forum as a whole at the moment (you can view his post by clicking here). One of the key ideas he highlighted was a desire from himself - and, I feel, a lot of people - for this area to be more of a workshop, as opposed to a simple 'show-and-tell' area - a 'showcase' - as he put it. Another key idea he discussed was something implemented on many other writing forums - ones that may take their craft more seriously than we do here - whereby there were post limitations, for example 'three critiques for every piece of original work posted'. Do I believe we should implemented a strictly monitored rule like that? No, I don't - as Masterkraft stated, many people here are casual readers and writers, and may not wish to expend the effort to go into such detail as this. However, I do believe we should attempt to move in the general 'workshop' direction, and maybe lose the 'showcase' attitude. We have a strong community here with some very skilled writers, and we're treated to a slow but steady influx of newer members also trying their hand out - so why shouldn't we take the craft seriously; why shouldn't we try to develop each other as much as possible? I see a lot of pieces here - often ones posted by newer community members - that receive little to no feedback. I also look at the authors and feel that they're annoyed by this - but, at the same time, not once do I see them offering up their opinions on other people's work - and that's the root of the problem. Everybody expects people to read and critique their own piece, but then many are unwilling to look at the other work on show. I'm not speaking about everyone, but in all honesty, I do feel I'm often speaking about the majority. Yes, the majority. As I've said, I don't think we should discuss implementing something strict - but I think we should move in that direction. To receive is to give; to give is to get. We should all start at least trying to move in this direction, and try to adopt a more intense, developmental attitude - for it's the only way forward. And if you don't agree, then you may as well just post your pieces and expect nothing in response, because I honestly feel it's all you deserve. We always pride ourselves in having such a strong community - so show it, and interact. Give out more than the bare minimum, if you even give out anything at all. Get involved, get serious. We're all good writers; let's show it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Unvirginiser Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Well said mate, I think the more frequent visitors should take this on board. I, myself have been guilty of being selfish on here. But sometimes between writing, college, gaming, socialising, seeing girlfriend and working, it can be difficult to find the time. Sometimes I see a large piece about a topic that doesn't really interest me and I think 'f*ck that'. Which is wrong really, especially if the author has already given me feedback in various pieces. So shall we call it a New year's resolution then? Find the time to read each other's pieces and give constructive feedback that will be helpful to let them improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vercetti21 Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Well said mate, I think the more frequent visitors should take this on board. I, myself have been guilty of being selfish on here. But sometimes between writing, college, gaming, socialising, seeing girlfriend and working, it can be difficult to find the time. Sometimes I see a large piece about a topic that doesn't really interest me and I think 'f*ck that'. Which is wrong really, especially if the author has already given me feedback in various pieces. So shall we call it a New year's resolution then? Find the time to read each other's pieces and give constructive feedback that will be helpful to let them improve. The way I see it, if you have the time to put out as many pieces as you have, you shouldn't have a problem setting five minutes aside to disect and critique someone else's work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saltinespike Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 I don't think this should be on a posting basis. As I have evidenced to most writers here, I discuss their pieces with them in private more often than I critique the work in public. Of course, I still do critique work publicly and everything, but having a one-on-one conversation, to me, is much more effective. I've done this with most of the regulars here. And if, all of the sudden, I'm forced to resort to long, boring critiques, I don't know how inclined I'm going to be to do so. If I don't get feedback, so be it. We'll see how long I last in these parts. Also, you can't expect new people to abide by these guidelines. If I see someone that looks like they've got potential and may not argue with a critique, I give feedback, regardless of their prior activity in Writer's Discussion. I really think this is going to close the door to newcomers, especially if these are implemented into rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminence Posted January 8, 2009 Author Share Posted January 8, 2009 Ryan, that is completely fine and is actually a perfect way to go about it. It's not about showing your critiques to the public, it's about showing them to the author - and if you discuss it with them personally, then that's perfect; not a problem. As I've said, I'm not talking about making this a specific rule, I'm just saying we should encourage the attitude. I'm not saying that if you don't critique you can't post - I'm saying you shouldn't expect any responses if you don't look at other people's work, and that goes for new writers too. Yeah, if someone new posts something, then people should take a look - but that new writer should also look around at other people's work and integrate themselves, not just expect everyone else to do the work for them. And if they only want to showcase their own work and not look at other people's, then who cares if they decide not to stay - what's the point in having members like that anyway? Vercetti's point is also extremely pertinent - he's put it perfectly. We should all be willing to at least read the pieces written by other people, and once that's done, offering criticism doesn't take long at all. The title of the topic sums it up. I'm not talking about guidelines, rules, or necessities. I'm talking about etiquette. If you expect people to read your piece, then read theirs. If you want advice, give it out. If you want criticism, show your thoughts. That's the attitude I want, and I feel we should all want, because it's the best way to develop not only the forum as a whole but ourselves as writers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxidizer Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 I'm all for it, as long as it's not just grammatical critique. I feel you should give constructive critism (if need be) on the actual story too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminence Posted January 8, 2009 Author Share Posted January 8, 2009 All kinds of criticism. Grammar only scrapes the tip of the iceberg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxidizer Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 (edited) Then that's sweet! Though the grammar side of things is the only kind of feedback I've seen since everyone started the deconstructing thing. It'd be nice if people did the same on character and storyline development etc. too. Edited January 8, 2009 by Oxidizer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Typhus Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 When no one comments on your work it's hard to give a sh*t what anybody else is doing. There is no way around it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminence Posted January 8, 2009 Author Share Posted January 8, 2009 When no one comments on your work it's hard to give a sh*t what anybody else is doing.There is no way around it. That's my point, though. When something is there, everyone should try to comment on it. This would make the author somewhat interested in returning the favour, and in that sense the exchange continues. But at the same time, I think that's the wrong attitude to have. We, as writers, should be interested in reading other pieces and expanding our knowledge and exploring writing. If nobody does read our piece, then so be it - I'm sure we wrote them mainly for intrinsic or other value, not solely to showcase on a forum alone. At the same time, if we read others' pieces, then they'll be inclined to return the favour, and things will be read all round - the perfect circle. But it has to start somewhere, so eliminating stubbornness could be crucial. In an ideal world, if we had 20 members, then we'd have 20 topics, and each one would have 19 replies. I don't see why we can't try to work towards that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Typhus Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 I don't see why we can't try to work towards that. Because people don't like to change, you know this better than most. Every time someone tries to liven this place up all you get are naysayers and doubters, they go on and on and on, nothing gets done. I think that people are in a rut, and they like it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminence Posted January 8, 2009 Author Share Posted January 8, 2009 I think you're so cynical and nihilistic that you don't want to. Go read someone's piece. Give it a try. You might feel better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Typhus Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 I think you're so cynical and nihilistic that you don't want to. I don't want to what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminence Posted January 8, 2009 Author Share Posted January 8, 2009 Change, my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxidizer Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 One thing I will say that might affect this new little system we're gonna try and have is this, that there's gonna be stories that don't interest us due to personal likes and dislikes. I know I've looked at a story and instantly backed out from reading it (despite how well written it may or may not have been) because it wasn't my thing story-wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminence Posted January 8, 2009 Author Share Posted January 8, 2009 In that situation, then, look at it in two ways - what can you give to the author, and what can you take from their piece? Experimentaion is key - you can learn a lot by writing something unfamiliar - and if it's well written, then you'll definitely be able to pick something up, and there will be at least something you can take from it. At the same time, you can comment solely on the writing itself, as opposed to the characters or plots contained within. In a workshop atmosphere, it's important not to just read what you're interested in, but to dabble in everything and try to evolve your own tastes, ideas and writing. I know we're all guilty of switching off on specific things, but we should try not to, and try to think of how we can help the other authors as much as ourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxidizer Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 That's very true, and something I will definitely try to do in the future, it's just I feel drained just looking at something that's not my preference before I've even begun to read it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan. Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 I think it's a great idea. As long as this place doesn't become an authoritarian stronghold with dictators in power, than I'm all for it. I'll even admit, I myself don't contribute that much myself. Hopefully that will change in this new year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Struff Bunstridge Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 I kind of agree with everybody. Whilst it's obviously nice to get feedback, I'm not going to trawl through yet another appallingly written fan fic and give the guy hints, partly because I think he ought to just stop, and secondly because I mostly hate them. If that means one less comment on my own work, then so be it. If we genuinely think someone ought to just stop, not commenting causes less grief than actively telling them, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxidizer Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Then I'd suggest what I do, only leave feedback to stories that you're actually interested in. Not only would it be a waste of time but you wouldn't be able to give them the full critique they may need if you're don't genuinely like the stuff. That being said, I'd still like to see some serious deconstruction of characters and their plots when reviewing stories, rather than just pointing out and correcting grammatical errors. Though I think I'm the only one who does want to see feedback to the actual story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saltinespike Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 That being said, I'd still like to see some serious deconstruction of characters and their plots when reviewing stories, rather than just pointing out and correcting grammatical errors. Though I think I'm the only one who does want to see feedback to the actual story. I've aseen plenty of that around, but if it's not to your standards, how about you demonstarte on a few stories around the forum. I only ever see a few lines per post from you, normally saying "Good job!". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxidizer Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 (edited) I only ever see a few lines per post from you, normally saying "Good job!". At the end of what I say as a bit of praise, yeah. If that's all you take notice of with my feedback then you really don't take any notice. I acknowledge character and story development of other peoples' work rather than their spelling mistakes (which are mostly typoes anyway! ). And to add to the contrary... Edited January 10, 2009 by Oxidizer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhoda Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Not everyone here can do a line by line deconstruction Ryan. Andy's posts may not be of much help, but they do wonders for an author's sense of self esteem, especially when more detailed criticism comes in the form of someone who has experience in doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxidizer Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Don't get me wong, I can and I will do a line-by-line deconstruction of character and story development if that's what people want, only I just feel it'd get overlooked anyway because apparently that's not what they want to see in their feedback. So I keep things short and simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminence Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 I kind of agree with everybody. Whilst it's obviously nice to get feedback, I'm not going to trawl through yet another appallingly written fan fic and give the guy hints, partly because I think he ought to just stop, and secondly because I mostly hate them. If that means one less comment on my own work, then so be it. If we genuinely think someone ought to just stop, not commenting causes less grief than actively telling them, right? If that's how you feel, then fair enough - but what about other pieces? Andy/Ryan: Sure, not everyone can give perfect constructive feedback, or tear a piece to absolute shreds. But, the point is, everyone should be able to at least read the other pieces of work, and give their thoughts - everybody has thoughts, whether good, bad, or whatever. I'm sure every time you read a piece, you can think of something you didn't quite like about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxidizer Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 True, but I just can't read something I'm not interested in. It's just the way it is. Which brings me onto my next point regarding what kind of critique I could provide: I'd only be able to do some hardcore deconstructing on stories I'm actually into as I wouldn't know the characters as well as I should do. Not only that but to provide feedback on development, of course I'm not gonna be giving massive reviews straight away. I wouldn't be able to until at least a few chapters into a story once some events start to unfold and shake things up a bit. That being said, I'll definitely start doing some of that from now on if that's what people want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhoda Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 I don't think there's any need at all to go overboard; as said, if people start seeing chunks of their stories followed by our criticism all over the page it'd be a bit of a turn off. Maybe if I was to quote a specific section I felt strongly enough to comment on, highlighting the words, like so: Which brings me onto my next point regarding what kind of critique I could provide: I'd only be able to do some hardcore deconstructing on stories I'm actually into as I wouldn't know the characters as well as I should do. Not only that but to provide feedback on development, of course I'm not gonna be giving massive reviews straight away. I wouldn't be able to until at least a few chapters into a story once some events start to unfold and shake things up a bit. "I quite like this segment, though it could use some work..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxidizer Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 But... I don't see anything wrong with what I said there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhoda Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 You know full well what I mean! I think if everyone did this, even if it's just a comment on a sentence they liked in particular we'd add a new degree to feedback, and help make WD all the more constructive without becoming a chore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxidizer Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 But that's exactly what I mean: it's just nitpicking at things that have nothing to do with the actual story. You're just playing thesaurus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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