Vert101 Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 ok I might be opening myself to a big kick in the goolies but here I go... (wide stance) This is a brief history or some such, of my experience with consoles and why I'll never buy another one... again... ever. After GTA SA came out... I was really enthused yet crushed after the people down at the games store told me that the PC version of the game was going to come out, about a year after the console version. I thought... well... that's complete and utter Bull $%#^. At this time I had a reasonably powerful PC and I'd payed some decent coin for it... so then I went away and thought... ok I'll buy a PS2. Apparently they're great... I've played Tekken on them... and I liked Tekken. So off I went to buy my shiny new PS2 and the PS2 version of GTASA. To say the least I was dissapointed. GTASA on console was abomnable... I own both versions now. The graphics and frames per second on PS2 were shonky... using a PS2 controller for a third person shooter was slow and unorthodox. I played it for about the first 5 missions before I finally decided that it was a waste of my time. When the PC version came out about a year later... even with all the bugs I thought it was a %1000 improvement on the PS2 version. So why do developers choose consoles over PC? My theory is that consoles are like Maccas or burger king... they're fast food... tasty but with little nourishment. it's a lot easier for developers to create a game over a unified system... which is underpowered and cannot be upgraded... unless you buy a new system... maybe the PS3 which will come out next year and cost you the same arm and a leg that the PS2 did, yet will still be underpowered compared to a PC to date. So why are developers taking the same stance as I am... (WIDE STANCE) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacMaan Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Console Vs PC, why do developers choose console? Because they are businesses who's primary goal is to make money - and they make a lot more money from consoles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YodaStar Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 (edited) Generally there are more sales of the console versions which equals more money. More money = happy developers. It might be less debuging on a unified system than a platform with lots of different hardware components. Though coding for the Xenon or Cell is no walk in the park either due to is IOE and limited memory. Might add to that GTA:SA bad framerate tale the console versions of GTAIV. They run quite bad to. Xbox360 version which has the more stable framerate of the 2 console versions barely ever runs smooth, averages of 20fps is not uncommon and heated situations you might look at 5-15fps (first hand experience). People are assuming console version runs flawless with solid 30fps and complain about the PC version having fluctuating perfomance despite wastly more graphical detail and better quality assets. Like on console versions you have a sprite dot in color for cars at distance in limited amount. On PC you got 3D cars in low LOD with proper headlights and tail lights. Increased cubemap resolution, texture resolution etc. It adds up. Really download the HD version and take a look at the xbox360's perfomance... http://www.gametrailers.com/player/33327.html Edited January 7, 2009 by YodaStar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vert101 Posted January 7, 2009 Author Share Posted January 7, 2009 Ok so everyone is out to make a fast buck... however... there have been a lot of PC game developers that have made a lot of money... and I mean a LOT of money developing for PC Gamers first... they have worked their games to cater for the PC user. And they work... shock horror... for the PC. I mean look at games like half life or world of warcraft... or crysis. I think they are much bigger earners than GTA4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacMaan Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 If you had a all-in-one universal unified system, there would be no competition so progress in hardware and software development would be painfully slow. Like Microsoft Windows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vert101 Posted January 7, 2009 Author Share Posted January 7, 2009 Ok that's interesting... I know first hand that the PS2 version of GTASA was crap... yet my question still remains... why develope a game on an inferior system?... you know it doesn't really have the power make your product shine like the stars but you still do it?... I ask... why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YodaStar Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 It'sjust that developing for PS3 and xbox360 requires lots of money invested in the project. Would it be PS3, xbox360 and PC it would cost even more and could go beyond their budget layout. hence when teh console versions are released they get back on their investment and if they go on profit they make a PC version. Though they limit their investment in the PC version due to several reasons. They want to save as much money as possible. PC's are more powerful and a brute force approach is temptating to save money. The game is released several months after the console versions hence the interest from the gaming community wont be as high nor will the sales. Most have already played it, interest for the game has sunken and devs want to profit on their creation. This of course doesn't hold true for all devs. Many multiplatform games are decent-good optimised for PC. The ones gettingthe best profit and that put the more work on the PC version are those that realease all versions at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacMaan Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Ok that's interesting... I know first hand that the PS2 version of GTASA was crap... yet my question still remains... why develope a game on an inferior system?... you know it doesn't really have the power make your product shine like the stars but you still do it?... I ask... why? My answer still remains..... Money. They'll develop on whatever system makes them the most money. They dont make games because they love the game, they do it for the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xrk Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 They dont make games because they love the game, they do it for the money. A side effect of capitalism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YodaStar Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Ok that's interesting... I know first hand that the PS2 version of GTASA was crap... yet my question still remains... why develope a game on an inferior system?... you know it doesn't really have the power make your product shine like the stars but you still do it?... I ask... why? Becouse despite being inferior it is what a lot of people own. They are potential buyers with money and they are a business that wants to make money. In the end it is all about the money. multilatform games will never harness the power of a gaming PC to it's fullest. I would be impressed if any dev making a multiplatform game would even reaches 50% optimised utilisation of PC hardware in the future. PC exclusive devs on the other hand will becouse they aren't targetting the consoles perfomance. Though it still comes down to their dev staff size, the money they have to invest and their audience target. A game like Silent Hunter would get less money invested into the development project becouse their target audience is limited. Would most PC gamers like submarine games they would have invested a lot more into the project becouse they know they will earn enough money to go on even and beyond. Money talks, fan love seldom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YodaStar Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 If you had a all-in-one universal unified system, there would be no competition so progress in hardware and software development would be painfully slow. Like Microsoft Windows Not fully true if that universal system would be the PC. That becouse companies making hardware would still compete with each other to make the biggest profit. Like TVs, they are all TVs but each company wants to get the buyers nod and money. So they improve on their tech to outdo the competition. And yes Windows, MS greedy triumph card. Only reason why DX10 is not that well established now is becosue the ymade it Vista exclusive. Would it have been for WinXP and Vista it would have been widely used by devs. As is MS monopoly on gaming OS hampers progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vert101 Posted January 7, 2009 Author Share Posted January 7, 2009 so my question still remains I guess... why after so many years of developing for PC... and don't tell me you guys didn't make any money off it... did you go console and shoot yourselves in the foot... when you could have spent the time and developed the game for a superior system and held your heads high and said "See what we can do... we're rockstars" not the other way around... where 98% of the PC gaming community think that this game is a complete flop? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vert101 Posted January 7, 2009 Author Share Posted January 7, 2009 sorry it was about 87% or something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayushisrocking Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 it's an intresting thread and all, but shouldn't it be in the Tech&PC chat sub-forum? sorry if i'm wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldage Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Ok that's interesting... I know first hand that the PS2 version of GTASA was crap... yet my question still remains... why develope a game on an inferior system?... you know it doesn't really have the power make your product shine like the stars but you still do it?... I ask... why? The PS3 wasn't released yet when SA was released No idea about X360. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vert101 Posted January 7, 2009 Author Share Posted January 7, 2009 yeah I know the PS3 wasn't released the same time as GTASA but I could tell you now without ever playing a PS3 that a decent PC gaming system would $%I^ rainbows all over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vert101 Posted January 7, 2009 Author Share Posted January 7, 2009 And to make it all clear... I don't blame the employees of rockstar for this... this problem sits firmly on the shoulders of the big knob... he or it... made the wrong decision... and will back it until he crashes and burns... but we as the pc gamer have to live with this ineptitude until another big knob sit in his place... and says "yeah ok the other big knob made a bad move... maybe we should develop our stuff for PC next..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vert101 Posted January 7, 2009 Author Share Posted January 7, 2009 if wishes had wings pigs would fly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OabAli Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 (edited) Definitely GTA on PC is the absolute best way to play it - the free aim with mouse, easy rotation of camera while driving. I played Vice City Stories, and it didn't quite feel as immersive - I felt I didn't have as much control and freedom as PC, due to 'fixed' camera and auto-aim. This is probably the similar feeling on console. Yeah the PC version out of a multiplatform game is usually not considered as much as the console versions, which sucks. Although many developers still believe in the PC, in games like Farcry 2, Fallout 3, COD4, Orange Box. Kudos to that. What sucks is that since GTA IV didn't sell as much as expected, this may discourage R* to create more games for PC. I think they were already discouraged while developing the PC because they knew, no matter how much DRM, that it would be pirated, thus crappy port. Fudging cheapskates who don't to actually purchase the game. I searched a torrent of GTA IV and over 125000 people downloaded it, and that was only one torrent out of 196. Dcikwads... Edited January 7, 2009 by OabAli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stickymaddness Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Profit. Console games cost more and there's a lot less piracy than on pc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DML Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 What sucks is that since GTA IV didn't sell as much as expected, this may discourage R* to create more games for PC. Anyone who expected a 7-month-old console port to sell well is only kidding themselves. Unfortunately, Rockstar kids themselves very frequently. It was Sam Houser who said (with a straight face) that the PlayStation 3 will allow them to build the best Grand Theft Auto world ever (something along those lines). That is the sort of attitude, along with bribes from console manufacturers, that has removed GTA from the PC's grasp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArecBalrin Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 What's ironic is that the reason given for why Gears of War came to the PC later was according to a developer: "If you stick it out on the 360 and PC, of course people that own both will buy it on PC". The PC remains the single largest games platform. There are so many 'game-ready' PCs compared to consoles that developers simply can't afford to not do the PC either, it's just they've been making a complete hash of it lately in multi-platform games. PC games stop selling more than all the consoles combined for the first time and some unknown industry person starts the "PC is dying!" hysteria. Of course GTA sells more on consoles: but that isn't reason why PC takes second place, it's because PC takes second place that GTA sells more on consoles otherwise there wouldn't be exclusivity deals. Is anyone suprised Valve games sell more on PC than consoles? I'm somewhat reminded of the campaign in London to keep the old Routemaster buses even though they didn't have wheel-chair access. The campaign's arguement about it was "Well people in wheel-chairs don't even use the buses!". Well of course they don't if they don't have wheel-chair access. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vert101 Posted January 8, 2009 Author Share Posted January 8, 2009 Ok it may be true that there is more piracy on PC's but there's a lot of piracy on consoles also... there's also a lot more legitimate customers for PC. I mean look at me... I was stupid enough to buy a PS2 and GTA SA on the same day (never again though) and when the PC version finally came out I bought it also, and I was much happier with the PC version as opposed to the PS2 one. I mean I don't begrudge people for owning consoles but I would rather pay $800 to upgrade my PC rather than pay $800 to buy a console. And considering the fact that you will need to buy a new console every several years anyway, to play the next generation of games; there's no real point for me doing so; I would put that money towards an upgradeable system which is at least twice as fast. I truly don't think that developers are going to lose money making games for the PC, well apart from losing bribe money as DML said; but honestly if Devs released a PC version first (that worked at least reasonably well), their sales aren't going to be low. I just wonder how much R* would have made if they had released the PC version before console; prolly not as much, but how long can you rely on bribe money for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stickymaddness Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Many game development companies (Including Rockstar) have said that they release on console first because there's more money to be made that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dcrysis02 Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Ok it may be true that there is more piracy on PC's but there's a lot of piracy on consoles also... there's also a lot more legitimate customers for PC. I mean look at me... I was stupid enough to buy a PS2 and GTA SA on the same day (never again though) and when the PC version finally came out I bought it also, and I was much happier with the PC version as opposed to the PS2 one. I mean I don't begrudge people for owning consoles but I would rather pay $800 to upgrade my PC rather than pay $800 to buy a console. And considering the fact that you will need to buy a new console every several years anyway, to play the next generation of games; there's no real point for me doing so; I would put that money towards an upgradeable system which is at least twice as fast. I truly don't think that developers are going to lose money making games for the PC, well apart from losing bribe money as DML said; but honestly if Devs released a PC version first (that worked at least reasonably well), their sales aren't going to be low. I just wonder how much R* would have made if they had released the PC version before console; prolly not as much, but how long can you rely on bribe money for? RockStar and all the other companies lately hold the Pc version back,because they say:The piracy of the Pc version drages the sale numbers down.Look.People are gonna pirate a game even if you release it a year later or a decade later.And there are customers for the PC version so they are going to buy the game.So that means profit,and higher sale numbers.Even if they sell 300000 the first day,that's profit too.I really don't understand why they do this.It's big BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vert101 Posted January 8, 2009 Author Share Posted January 8, 2009 Well at least there's still some developers out there that are comitted to producing a quality product for the PC... even though they are waning. And when I find these games I will buy them. I support the PC gaming industry wholeheartedly. But as it stands... companies with brilliant people on staff, which have the capacity to produce amazing games with groundbreaking technology; still want to cripple themselves and earn nothing but scathing reveiws by pushing a product which could have been great, out on an inferior system. Can we hope they see the light?... NAH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vert101 Posted January 8, 2009 Author Share Posted January 8, 2009 I think that if linux came out with a user friendly and compatible system made especially for gaming... and computer game devs could see past the bribes and turn to linux... I would pay big bucks to buy that operating system. it $%!^s rainbows over windows. Maybe that's the problem with PC gaming today... we are to dependant on windows. And look at where that got us... the XBOX... a windows based gaming console with no soul... which bribes Devs to manufacture games catered for "Games for Windows". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vert101 Posted January 8, 2009 Author Share Posted January 8, 2009 If wishes had wings... pigs would fly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kkthxcya Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 I look at it this way: Any console is the same, with the only difference being minor changes (like different readers, versions etc. etc. - Nothing like extra graphic cards, more RAM/CPU - Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't have that much knowledge on Xboxes and PS3). There aren't nearly as many similar computer Rigs vs Consoles. Therefor: There's only ONE way (if it's only for one console platform) the graphics can be handled - There's no tweaking, adjusting, adding or removing (well, in some cases there are, but you all know what I mean - Don't be dumb). So: There aren't any users they have to think off, while setting the graphics. It's a whole other thing, when it comes to the computer. I actually think, there are about as any DX9 users, as there are DX10/PCI 2.0 users. A game like this, I imagine, runs smooth on low settings if it's a 512MB DX10 compatible graphic card? I've got mine to run somewhat smoothly, but it still glitches, and sometimes hangs it self. - Well. Another reason could be for pilot-testing the games. In some cases, many console known bugs get fixed, some features get added + FOR THE RIGS ABLE TO DO SO: Way better graphics. Don't get me wrong here: I'm not saying this release is the best rockstar made, but then again: I remember having problems with GTAIII (Something about a Screensaver update, or something ^.^), and likewise with GTA SA (Not same bug, I just remember having problems with SA). My point is: GTAIII was really an epic game. It only got better with Vice City! So I'm thinking, that GTA IV might just be like III - Having a Vice city waiting for it adding more features ^.^ A thought I had last night was: Wouldn't it be beautiful if GTA IV on LOW settings (1 in everything, low in both) was set as dx9. I don't know if I'm explaining it right. What I mean is that: Low = DX9 and med/high/??? = DX10 only. I hope I'm making sense ^.^ The way I see it nearly all developers would benefit from making lighter PC games and making DLC for power-gamers providing dx10 compatibility, HD graphics and/or more. Another thought I had was: Instead of buying a new graphics card I might look for a used console instead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stickymaddness Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 I think that if linux came out with a user friendly and compatible system made especially for gaming... and computer game devs could see past the bribes and turn to linux... I would pay big bucks to buy that operating system. it $%!^s rainbows over windows. Maybe that's the problem with PC gaming today... we are to dependant on windows. And look at where that got us... the XBOX... a windows based gaming console with no soul... which bribes Devs to manufacture games catered for "Games for Windows". The thing to remember is that games are written using directx, regardless of a directx vs opengl debate, the point is (most) games are written in directx and game developers like using directx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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