Figured out why GTA4 is bland in some areas

[kmg90]

and the reason is because of this corporate "fad" that is "Downloadable Content"

 

Let me explain

 

Before GTA4, all Grand Theft Auto games were shipped final versions. When you went to the store and slapped money down for a GTA game you got what you payed for Everything R* North wanted and designed was on the disc. This goes from extensive array of weapons (flamethrower, mini-gun, automatic shotguns, katanas, chainsaws) to Jet packs and fighter jets, army helicopters, tanks and a wide variety of clothes. The sub-missions like firefighter and ambulance and taxi. Where is the rampages one of the signature missions of gta

 

Most of the said features are missing with no real good reason to think why they would take it out besides that they want to "sell" the features to you. Thats the only reason I can think of. Or maybe they ran out of space on the DVD since Rockstar said they wished they had blu-ray capacity.

 

I see a lot of "missing features" in GTA4, like the all the skate parks, why have all these skate parks and not have some sort of skateboards, the Driving Range, I could see you could take out your anger on a bunch of golf balls maybe even through a few people out on the range to hit?

 

I could almost go as far as saying Microsoft ruined GTA4 (for not having a better disc media that holds more data and paying for exclusive DLC) Ugh I just want to

Edited December 24, 2008 by kmg90

[tobu24]

I'm pissed that Rockstar is screwing it's fans with this move as well dude.

I don't agree about the xbox 360 because it was the ps3 that delayed the game's release date. I figured they would pull this sh*t when I heard about the DLC. I'm still gonna get it though lol

[LunaticBrandon]

I think this game is so bland because its the first attempt at a realistic grand theft auto. The DLC wasn't thought of until microsoft asked them if they woud make it which was several months before the game came out. Its still a pretty good game but it could use some more content. Maybe the DLC will help but the DLC isnt the reason the game feels it is lacking.

[LitoBX]

To be honest, I could've lived without The Lost and Damned and just

live with Rockstars down loadable episode. It's causing so much damn

imbalance, seriously, this greedy mentality is f*cking annoying. The

least they could've done was make The Lost and Damned disked but

no, of course not, because they want Playstation 3 owners to get Xbox

360's and then Xbox Live.

 

 

I. Seriously. Could've lived without The Lost and Damned.

[Warplay3r]

 

I think this game is so bland because its the first attempt at a realistic grand theft auto. The DLC wasn't thought of until microsoft asked them if they woud make it which was several months before the game came out. Its still a pretty good game but it could use some more content. Maybe the DLC will help but the DLC isnt the reason the game feels it is lacking.

 

I second this. I mean seriously, it was kind of like Rockstar starting from scratch, and it feels just...unGTAish. No tanks, flamethrowers, miniguns, rampages, etc? That was the GTA we used to love. I mean, I love GTA IV, but I also love previous games. Truthfully, I believe DLC will help and give back the GTA feel, or atleast I hope it does. We'll havta wait and see, I suppose.

Edited December 24, 2008 by Warplay3r

[Mafioso86]

No offense... but you guys sound like 9 year old spoiled brats with no knowledge of how the gaming industry actually works. Your views on the purpose of DLC are comparable to thinking that the government is putting fluoride in the water supply to control your mind or that the moon landings were filmed on a sound stage. There is no conspiracy to leave things out and then charge for them later through downloads... Remember how helicopters were left out of GTA3? Did they do that to force you to buy VC? No. They did that because they needed more time to develop the programming properly on a completely new engine so that it didn't operate like sh*t. Be glad that you have DLC to download and update GTAIV rather than being forced to wait for the next proper installment in the series to get additional weapons and game play. Further more... go read interviews with R* from two years ago... it was made clear from the beginning that GTAIV was going to be kept fairly simple as they were developing a completely new engine. It was also stated that they wanted to go in a more serious and realistic route. They said there would be no planes or tanks from the get go. Add to that the fact the DLC is 360 exclusive... and your logic makes no sense. From a business perspective it makes no sense to release an "incomplete game" on two consoles... and then charging for updates to "complete the game" on only one of those consoles. Regardless of Microsoft paying $50 million... you are guaranteed to alienate 30-40% of your consumer base. This is like a mid cycle semi-sequel along the lines of the stories games... a GTAIV&1/2 if you will. Possibly even just an experiment in how well a game released online only would work.

[LunaticBrandon]

No offense... but you guys sound like 9 year old spoiled brats with no knowledge of how the gaming industry actually works. Your views on the purpose of DLC are comparable to thinking that the government is putting fluoride in the water supply to control your mind or that the moon landings were filmed on a sound stage. There is no conspiracy to leave things out and then charge for them later through downloads... Remember how helicopters were left out of GTA3? Did they do that to force you to buy VC? No. They did that because they needed more time to develop the programming properly on a completely new engine so that it didn't operate like sh*t. Be glad that you have DLC to download and update GTAIV rather than being forced to wait for the next proper installment in the series to get additional weapons and game play. Further more... go read interviews with R* from two years ago... it was made clear from the beginning that GTAIV was going to be kept fairly simple as they were developing a completely new engine. It was also stated that they wanted to go in a more serious and realistic route. They said there would be no planes or tanks from the get go. Add to that the fact the DLC is 360 exclusive... and your logic makes no sense. From a business perspective it makes no sense to release an "incomplete game" on two consoles... and then charging for updates to "complete the game" on only one of those consoles. Regardless of Microsoft paying $50 million... you are guaranteed to alienate 30-40% of your consumer base. This is like a mid cycle semi-sequel along the lines of the stories games... a GTAIV&1/2 if you will. Possibly even just an experiment in how well a game released online only would work.

If only there was a way to force all the idiots read this.

[Mafioso86]

No offense... but you guys sound like 9 year old spoiled brats with no knowledge of how the gaming industry actually works. Your views on the purpose of DLC are comparable to thinking that the government is putting fluoride in the water supply to control your mind or that the moon landings were filmed on a sound stage. There is no conspiracy to leave things out and then charge for them later through downloads... Remember how helicopters were left out of GTA3? Did they do that to force you to buy VC? No. They did that because they needed more time to develop the programming properly on a completely new engine so that it didn't operate like sh*t. Be glad that you have DLC to download and update GTAIV rather than being forced to wait for the next proper installment in the series to get additional weapons and game play. Further more... go read interviews with R* from two years ago... it was made clear from the beginning that GTAIV was going to be kept fairly simple as they were developing a completely new engine. It was also stated that they wanted to go in a more serious and realistic route. They said there would be no planes or tanks from the get go. Add to that the fact the DLC is 360 exclusive... and your logic makes no sense. From a business perspective it makes no sense to release an "incomplete game" on two consoles... and then charging for updates to "complete the game" on only one of those consoles. Regardless of Microsoft paying $50 million... you are guaranteed to alienate 30-40% of your consumer base. This is like a mid cycle semi-sequel along the lines of the stories games... a GTAIV&1/2 if you will. Possibly even just an experiment in how well a game released online only would work.

If only there was a way to force all the idiots read this.

hehe... thanks, good to know someone has a brain

[CookPassBabtridge]

"From a business perspective it makes no sense to release an "incomplete game" on two consoles... and then charging for updates to "complete the game" on only one of those consoles."

 

^ It actually makes perfect sense, because Rockstar have multi-million sales already in place for both platforms, and can now make more millions without the expense of developing another full-blown game.

 

As for how the industry works, it is big business, plain and simple. Players will continue to get screwed, especially with the economy as it is. Fable II is another example of a shortlived game padded out after the fact, to make more money. Which is fine if you are Mr. Microsoft/Lionhead. But theres no point defending these practises.

 

IV is a very good game, but the novelty has faded far quicker than previous GTA's. SA lasted people literally for years. To get the same replay value, we are probably looking at paying triple the price tag of a single game, in the long run.

 

Il be getting the DLC if it expands the gameplay, but I wont pretend Rockstar are doing me a favour.

[The BigSlick]

I know im going to sound like a complete fanboy (have ps3) but im going to say it any way. The only way for this to end, is if no one buys the lost and damned. I know all of you guys will, but if you dont R* wont try this money grabing tactic again.

[kmg90]

GTA series was always a rebel in the gaming industry of going the extra miles for awesome games and not slacking about "putting them in the next game" or having DLC

[the_regular_guy]

...extensive array of weapons (flamethrower, mini-gun, automatic shotguns, katanas, chainsaws) to Jet packs and fighter jets, army helicopters, tanks and a wide variety of clothes. The sub-missions like firefighter and ambulance and taxi. Where is the rampages one of the signature missions of gta.

 

Most of the said features are missing with no real good reason to think why they would take it out besides that they want to "sell" the features to you. Thats the only reason I can think of. Or maybe they ran out of space on the DVD since Rockstar said they wished they had blu-ray capacity.

 

The only problem is that they're not putting in the tanks, miniguns, jets and all that sh*t in the DLC.

So your whole "they left it out so they can sell it to us later" argument doesn't really work.

 

The reason they left all that stuff out, and they've been saying it ever since the first trailer, is because R* wanted to take the game in a more realistic direction.

 

 

[CookPassBabtridge]

That may be true for vehicles, but it goes way beyond that, its the sheer lack of interiors and activities that's the problem.

 

Take the huge rollercoaster for example, who the hell guessed that would be unusable? There was a lot of stuff that was used to tease buyers in the trailer, that ended up locked off. Even the godamn Bean Machine isnt enterable. The list goes on....

 

 

[Pubicmonkey]

Quite a lot of old game series have gone downhill or been killed off because the fanbase didn't like the new direction developers tried to take them. Rockstar are taking a big risk with their serious business. And judging by all the threads that were started by disappointed people around the launch of GTA IV.. it doesn't look like people like the new direction.

 

Up until the trophy patch for PS3, I was only playing the game for online racing. Racing! I could have bought MC: LA for that. I got bored of freemode because the city just isn't very interesting. I got all the offline trophies and a few online other than the problematic ones. Then i went back to racing.

 

GTA IV was the first game that actually made me look elsewhere for games of a style that Rockstar pretty much pioneered. I got Saints Row 2 two weeks ago and haven't touched GTA IV since.

 

They need to pull something more than just a new city out of their hat for the next game or I'm quickly gonna lose interest in the series.

[Mafioso86]

"From a business perspective it makes no sense to release an "incomplete game" on two consoles... and then charging for updates to "complete the game" on only one of those consoles."

 

^ It actually makes perfect sense, because Rockstar have multi-million sales already in place for both platforms, and can now make more millions without the expense of developing another full-blown game.

 

As for how the industry works, it is big business, plain and simple. Players will continue to get screwed, especially with the economy as it is. Fable II is another example of a shortlived game padded out after the fact, to make more money. Which is fine if you are Mr. Microsoft/Lionhead. But theres no point defending these practises.

 

IV is a very good game, but the novelty has faded far quicker than previous GTA's. SA lasted people literally for years. To get the same replay value, we are probably looking at paying triple the price tag of a single game, in the long run.

 

Il be getting the DLC if it expands the gameplay, but I wont pretend Rockstar are doing me a favour.

Ok, but you see all the bitching? A lot of people are unhappy... and perhaps they'll continue to buy the games anyways, but if I were that displeased with the direction they are going in I would not. Someone mentioned that a number of series have lost sales and fans due to going in a different direction and that is what I personally think this is. In my mind no developer would be stupid enough to purposefully make an "incomplete game" and then release the "complete" version via download to one console.

 

The game may be missing things you that you want and may be "incomplete" in your mind... but I still think R* made the game they set out to make. For those of you expecting the DLC to allow you to use roller coasters and planes, I think you're gravely mistaken. It will most likely be more of the same as GTAIV. Sure you will get some new guns and you will be able to use the sawnoff on the bike, but I really think that will be the limit of the types of updates we will get. Probably some more new side missions. Point is... if you thought GTAIV was bland you will probably thing TLAD is bland, and that's your opinion, you have the right to it. Volition cleverly made a new franchise just in time for those of you that liked the more whacky off the wall part of GTA that R* have decided to abandon, which seem to be the majority. That if nothing else shows to me the fact that R* are as rebellious and independent as ever. Why? Because they are making the game that they want to make. They could have easily made another San Andreas with better graphics and you guys would have devoured it... but that's not what they wanted to do, so they didn't. Maybe it is because I personally prefer the more dramatic and film like direction of GTAIV... but I have a lot of respect for R* doing that.

[QwertyAAA]

 

No offense... but you guys sound like 9 year old spoiled brats with no knowledge of how the gaming industry actually works. Your views on the purpose of DLC are comparable to thinking that the government is putting fluoride in the water supply to control your mind or that the moon landings were filmed on a sound stage. There is no conspiracy to leave things out and then charge for them later through downloads... Remember how helicopters were left out of GTA3? Did they do that to force you to buy VC? No. They did that because they needed more time to develop the programming properly on a completely new engine so that it didn't operate like sh*t. Be glad that you have DLC to download and update GTAIV rather than being forced to wait for the next proper installment in the series to get additional weapons and game play. Further more... go read interviews with R* from two years ago... it was made clear from the beginning that GTAIV was going to be kept fairly simple as they were developing a completely new engine. It was also stated that they wanted to go in a more serious and realistic route. They said there would be no planes or tanks from the get go. Add to that the fact the DLC is 360 exclusive... and your logic makes no sense. From a business perspective it makes no sense to release an "incomplete game" on two consoles... and then charging for updates to "complete the game" on only one of those consoles. Regardless of Microsoft paying $50 million... you are guaranteed to alienate 30-40% of your consumer base. This is like a mid cycle semi-sequel along the lines of the stories games... a GTAIV&1/2 if you will. Possibly even just an experiment in how well a game released online only would work.

Noo, it's not the government. It's the Commies that are fluoridating the water to control our minds. Goddamned Commies.

 

Nevertheless, I agree with you completely. Y'all, stop whining. GTA III wasn't perfect either, and neither was your beloved broken and f*cking pointless and completely unrealistic SA.

Edited December 24, 2008 by QwertyAAA

[Lil' Red]

I've been saying this ever since DLC was announced.

[shunsuke]

 

and the reason is because of this corporate "fad" that is "Downloadable Content"

 

Let me explain

 

Before GTA4, all Grand Theft Auto games were shipped final versions. When you went to the store and slapped money down for a GTA game you got what you payed for Everything R* North wanted and designed was on the disc. This goes from extensive array of weapons (flamethrower, mini-gun, automatic shotguns, katanas, chainsaws) to Jet packs and fighter jets, army helicopters, tanks and a wide variety of clothes. The sub-missions like firefighter and ambulance and taxi. Where is the rampages one of the signature missions of gta     

 

Most of the said features are missing with no real good reason to think why they would take it out besides that they want to "sell" the features to you. Thats the only reason I can think of. Or maybe they ran out of space on the DVD since Rockstar said they wished they had blu-ray capacity.

 

I see a lot of "missing features" in GTA4, like the all the skate parks, why have all these skate parks and not have some sort of skateboards, the Driving Range, I could see you could take out your anger on a bunch of golf balls maybe even through a few people out on the range to hit? 

 

I could almost go as far as saying Microsoft ruined GTA4 (for not having a better disc media that holds more data and paying for exclusive DLC) Ugh I just want to 

You fail since DLC is about a new storyline first. I've never played two different characters in previous GTA. There was only Claude, Tommy, CJ.

 

What you're mentioning is useless additional features. Skate ? GTFO crybaby.

Edited December 25, 2008 by shunsuke

[shamanzerox]

Xbox 360 and Ps3 players dont have to complain! R* should look to the Pc gamers cause they have more problems then one of the others!

Problems with gameplay, Graphics, lagg etc. Xbox and Ps3 cant complain about Graphics and lagg cause they are playing well.

Just wait till R* fixed PC version before make it look to other stuff.

 

And yes, if you think R* should have taken a better Data Storer they should have taken 3 Cd's

[chngdman]

I don't agree simply because this game should be compared to III, not VC or SA, in my opinion. Compare this game to the game it successes, and I think you'll agree that this game far shadows over it's predecessor.

[Algonquin Assassin]

 

Quite a lot of old game series have gone downhill or been killed off because the fanbase didn't like the new direction developers tried to take them. Rockstar are taking a big risk with their serious business. And judging by all the threads that were started by disappointed people around the launch of GTA IV.. it doesn't look like people like the new direction.

 

Up until the trophy patch for PS3, I was only playing the game for online racing. Racing! I could have bought MC: LA for that. I got bored of freemode because the city just isn't very interesting. I got all the offline trophies and a few online other than the problematic ones. Then i went back to racing.

 

GTA IV was the first game that actually made me look elsewhere for games of a style that Rockstar pretty much pioneered. I got Saints Row 2 two weeks ago and haven't touched GTA IV since.

 

They need to pull something more than just a new city out of their hat for the next game or I'm quickly gonna lose interest in the series.

I bought SR2 on release day, and I was convinced it was a better game than GTA IV, but after a while I slowly started to realise that it takes more than just features to make a good game. I still haven't even finished the story.

 

Anyway maybe alot of people don't like the new direction, but what were R* meant to do? Keep on producing the same style games they were making 6-7 years ago?

 

I honestly think R* were trying to make GTA IV alot like GTA III. GTA III didn't have alot in it, and it was more serious than VC, and SA.

Edited December 26, 2008 by Miamivicecity

[iPetrovic]

...extensive array of weapons (flamethrower, mini-gun, automatic shotguns, katanas, chainsaws) to Jet packs and fighter jets, army helicopters, tanks and a wide variety of clothes. The sub-missions like firefighter and ambulance and taxi. Where is the rampages one of the signature missions of gta.

 

Most of the said features are missing with no real good reason to think why they would take it out besides that they want to "sell" the features to you. Thats the only reason I can think of. Or maybe they ran out of space on the DVD since Rockstar said they wished they had blu-ray capacity.

 

The only problem is that they're not putting in the tanks, miniguns, jets and all that sh*t in the DLC.

So your whole "they left it out so they can sell it to us later" argument doesn't really work.

 

The reason they left all that stuff out, and they've been saying it ever since the first trailer, is because R* wanted to take the game in a more realistic direction.

His argument works. They're not selling it to us in DLC, they're selling it to us in CHINATOWN WARS. Remember that there's more than one player in this industry, not just Microsoft.

[the_regular_guy]

 

...extensive array of weapons (flamethrower, mini-gun, automatic shotguns, katanas, chainsaws) to Jet packs and fighter jets, army helicopters, tanks and a wide variety of clothes. The sub-missions like firefighter and ambulance and taxi. Where is the rampages one of the signature missions of gta.

 

Most of the said features are missing with no real good reason to think why they would take it out besides that they want to "sell" the features to you. Thats the only reason I can think of. Or maybe they ran out of space on the DVD since Rockstar said they wished they had blu-ray capacity.

 

The only problem is that they're not putting in the tanks, miniguns, jets and all that sh*t in the DLC.

So your whole "they left it out so they can sell it to us later" argument doesn't really work.

 

The reason they left all that stuff out, and they've been saying it ever since the first trailer, is because R* wanted to take the game in a more realistic direction.

His argument works. They're not selling it to us in DLC, they're selling it to us in CHINATOWN WARS. Remember that there's more than one player in this industry, not just Microsoft.

 

So you think they removed all that stuff from GTAIV just so they could sell us Chinatown Wars?

That's the dumbest thing i've heard in a long time.

 

Right now i can't see any evidence that tanks, miniguns, flametrowers, parachutes and all that stuff is in CW. I can't even see any evidence of features that wasn't in IV, except maybe some minigames especially made to work with the DS controls or the slightly expanded drug missions.

 

 

Edited December 26, 2008 by the_regular_guy

[motorforum]

...extensive array of weapons (flamethrower, mini-gun, automatic shotguns, katanas, chainsaws) to Jet packs and fighter jets, army helicopters, tanks and a wide variety of clothes. The sub-missions like firefighter and ambulance and taxi. Where is the rampages one of the signature missions of gta.

 

Most of the said features are missing with no real good reason to think why they would take it out besides that they want to "sell" the features to you. Thats the only reason I can think of. Or maybe they ran out of space on the DVD since Rockstar said they wished they had blu-ray capacity.

 

The only problem is that they're not putting in the tanks, miniguns, jets and all that sh*t in the DLC.

So your whole "they left it out so they can sell it to us later" argument doesn't really work.

 

The reason they left all that stuff out, and they've been saying it ever since the first trailer, is because R* wanted to take the game in a more realistic direction.

His argument works. They're not selling it to us in DLC, they're selling it to us in CHINATOWN WARS. Remember that there's more than one player in this industry, not just Microsoft.

 

So you think they removed all that stuff from GTAIV just so they could sell us Chinatown Wars?

That's the dumbest thing i've heard in a long time.

By the op's reckoning, it does make sense. By claiming DLC meant things were cut from the game so it could be sold to you later, then the features of CW on DS would also mean features were held back from IV's main release. It's an analogy as absurd as the point originally made, but that's the implication.

[LitoBX]

Things You Can Do in GTA's

 

 

GTA III

-Rampages

-Races

 

GTA VC

-Rampages

-Races

-Companies

-Clothes

-Rob stores

 

GTA SA

-Girlfriends

-Modding

-Companies

-Rampages

-Clothes

-Eating

-Working out

-Gang recruitment

-Basketball

 

GTA IV

-Friends

-Girlfriends

-Friend/Girlfriend activities

-Clothes

-Improved stunts

-Eating

-Races

-Achievements

-Mission choices

-Usable phone

 

I personally, love the realness with doing stunts on the NRG in IV.

[RATEDR307]

 

No offense... but you guys sound like 9 year old spoiled brats with no knowledge of how the gaming industry actually works. Your views on the purpose of DLC are comparable to thinking that the government is putting fluoride in the water supply to control your mind or that the moon landings were filmed on a sound stage. There is no conspiracy to leave things out and then charge for them later through downloads... Remember how helicopters were left out of GTA3? Did they do that to force you to buy VC? No. They did that because they needed more time to develop the programming properly on a completely new engine so that it didn't operate like sh*t. Be glad that you have DLC to download and update GTAIV rather than being forced to wait for the next proper installment in the series to get additional weapons and game play. Further more... go read interviews with R* from two years ago... it was made clear from the beginning that GTAIV was going to be kept fairly simple as they were developing a completely new engine. It was also stated that they wanted to go in a more serious and realistic route. They said there would be no planes or tanks from the get go. Add to that the fact the DLC is 360 exclusive... and your logic makes no sense. From a business perspective it makes no sense to release an "incomplete game" on two consoles... and then charging for updates to "complete the game" on only one of those consoles. Regardless of Microsoft paying $50 million... you are guaranteed to alienate 30-40% of your consumer base. This is like a mid cycle semi-sequel along the lines of the stories games... a GTAIV&1/2 if you will. Possibly even just an experiment in how well a game released online only would work.

Then explain to me what happened to the MP5,

and the silenced pistol

Don't be surprised if they come back to be sold as downloadable content.

[mrpain]

Things You Can Do in GTA's

 

 

GTA III

-Rampages

-Races

 

GTA VC

-Rampages

-Races

-Companies

-Clothes

-Rob stores

 

GTA SA

-Girlfriends

-Modding

-Companies

-Rampages

-Clothes

-Eating

-Working out

-Gang recruitment

-Basketball

 

GTA IV

-Friends

-Girlfriends

-Friend/Girlfriend activities

-Clothes

-Improved stunts

-Eating

-Races

-Achievements

-Mission choices

-Usable phone

 

I personally, love the realness with doing stunts on the NRG in IV.

LitoBX just showed there are enough stuff in GTA IV, so why do we need a DLC?

[LitoBX]

 

Things You Can Do in GTA's

 

 

GTA III

-Rampages

-Races

 

GTA VC

-Rampages

-Races

-Companies

-Clothes

-Rob stores

 

GTA SA

-Girlfriends

-Modding

-Companies

-Rampages

-Clothes

-Eating

-Working out

-Gang recruitment

-Basketball

 

GTA IV

-Friends

-Girlfriends

-Friend/Girlfriend activities

-Clothes

-Improved stunts

-Eating

-Races

-Achievements

-Mission choices

-Usable phone

 

I personally, love the realness with doing stunts on the NRG in IV.

LitoBX just showed there are enough stuff in GTA IV, so why do we need a DLC?

Because it'd be fun to be a biker. Well at least, I think so!

[OverTheBelow]

GTA SA had so much more than IV. That list is very summarized on the SA part.

[C06alt]

Just a few things unmentioned i miss from SA that are not in IV

 

- haircuts

- tattoos

- bicycles

- owning business

- burglary

- dancing minigame

- bouncing cars & minigame

- player skills that changed with experience.

- sp turf wars

- gambling

- car modding

- planes

- hovercraft

- parachuting

- swimming underwater

- destruction derby

- several video subgames

- tanks

- national guard

- different styles of hand-to-hand combat

 

In its defense IV has MP which is nearly worth all of that for replay ability factor.

The fact its called IV and not another derivative of gta III Is part to blame for the lack of features.

When III came out many things that were introduced in II were lost also.

MP and changeable gang respect system to name a couple.