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radicell

China

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radicell

A topic like this was bound to spring up some time.

 

The idea here is to discuss China as a modern nation, as a whole, but more focusing on the negative aspects that everyone has been focusing on: Human Rights. Even though it is the fastest growing economy and a global superpower, there are many who do not approve of its government and its ways.

 

There are plenty of criticism about the way the government lies to the people, and stops the free flow of information, with methods such as internet censorship. Websites and blogs have been known to be deleted by the Gov because of sensitive matter, as well as plenty of international sites, such as BBC, Blogger, Youtube, Wikipedia, have been blocked in the mainland due to their inclusion of sensitive material. Even though China declared that free, unimpeded internet will be available to reporters and media alike during the Olympics, this has clearly not been the case and the Chinese later restated its statement, saying that journalists will have "sufficient" access to the internet instead of the promised "free" access.

 

More gross to outsiders is the human rights records of China. Many sources have documented the abuses of human rights in violation of internationally recognized terms. The infamous 1989 incident at Tiananmen Square set the tone for a decade of limited freedom. Freedom of speech, freedom of movement, and especially political freedom, rights that the general population in other developed countries hold, are severely limited in China. Those who criticise the government are imprisoned, and incidents of torture, forced confession, and forced labor are widely reported.

 

Other topics of or relating to Chinese government/human rights are the One-Child Policy, which has come under heavy criticism from pro-life groups, its hostility with Taiwan and its allies (China refuses to conduct diplomatic relations with countries that recognize Taiwan as a separate country), and its involvement in the Darfur conflict.

 

Personally, as a member of Chinese heritage as well as living in Beijing right now, I'm not too keen on the Chinese government myself. My access to information is often limited (for example, a National Geographic magazine's May 2008 Special on China did not arrive until July, at which point I found out that several pages were glued together and several texts blacked out), but being part of the local international community does give me insight to the situation and I can well understand where the critics are coming from. The human rights record is one thing of my country that I'm not especially proud of.

 

There's been plenty of discussion in the Olympics topic as well as international websites (Facebook etc.) regarding China, and now, especially that the Olympics have come, are getting much more heated and frequent. Like I said, I myself am quite disgusted at the human rights record. However, I rigidly disagree against the banishing of China, its products, or its contributions it has to the world: In this case, the Olympics. China has plenty of good aspects to offer as well, and I'd like to note that most of China's criticizers have not been to the country themselves. Furthermore, sports and politics do not mix at all, and should stay well separate of each other. Boycotting China's (possibly) proudest moment in history is not going to help the cause.

 

I'd like to hear what the rest of you have to say, and I'm hoping I will be contributing to more discussion as well.

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Vercetti21

You live in Beijing? I didn't know that.

 

This all goes back to Machiavelli's principles in "The Prince", where he discusses whether it is better to be loved or feared as a leader. A government as oppressive, aggressive, and controlling as China's is bound to fall, no matter how successful it may seem now. I predict that we will see China arise as the main world superpower (above the US, which one could arguably say holds that position now) sometime within the next few decades, at which point the Chinese people will either revolt, or a third party will step in and try to stop any expansion of communism and other Chinese principles (i.e. the US). World War 3, anyone?

 

I myself have never desired to travel to China. Huge crowds, smog, bad sewage = smell, etc.

 

Also, I heard the other day that the population of China is around 1.5 billion, which is incredible considering the world population just passes 6 billion. Can anyone confirm this statistic, or is it bologna?

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Struff Bunstridge

 

Jul 30 2008

With just over 1.3 billion people (1,330,044,605 as of mid-2008), China is the world's largest and most populous country.

 

Apparently not. That's an astonishing figure. The same site reckons two and a half billion live in India and China alone, almost half the world's population.

 

No wonder the pollution is crazy around that part of the world.

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mark-2007

I watched a Panorama epsidoe on it. The guy interviewed a man in a wheelchair who, according to government records, had lost his leg in a vehicle accident. Upon being interviewed however, he admitted to being crushed by a tank during the Tianamen Square protests. He has since been banned from competing for China in the Paralympics.

 

The interview was stopped there by a government minder who said that it was a "sensitive subject, and it's probably best to not discuss it". This silencing happened a few times in the programme. The interviewer was also followed later by government officials.

 

I think it's an odd country. You see and hear about it's human rights abuses, which is obviously partially down to the Western media pushing that image out, but then you see all the crowds and crowds of people as the Olympic Torch passes along the streets of Beijing and everyone is screaming and cheering.

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Mike Tequeli
I think it's an odd country. You see and hear about it's human rights abuses, which is obviously partially down to the Western media pushing that image out, but then you see all the crowds and crowds of people as the Olympic Torch passes along the streets of Beijing and everyone is screaming and cheering.

Cheering thanks to brainwashing and super nationalism. Talk to a Chinese person, they know so little about true democracy that they don't realize how much their system oppresses them.

 

 

There are so many things wrong with China, with all the human rights abuses, that I can't even say any of them. Bottom Line, China sucks, as you can see here.

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Breaking Bohan

Well I've never been to China, but I think they're probably getting a bad rap. I'm sure they do some really lousy things, but come on, anyone who can create cookies with pearls of wisdom inside them can't be that bad!

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Struff Bunstridge

I was interested to see a skit on the news last night, where some really beautiful little girl was singing, possibly at the Olympic opening ceremony. She looked like she was miming as she was slightly out of sync, they went on to reveal that it was a much less aesthetically pleasing little girl who actually sang it, and they replaced her with the prettier girl to "promote the right image". Sort of like David Prowse and James Earl Jones. Bastards.

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radicell
I was interested to see a skit on the news last night, where some really beautiful little girl was singing, possibly at the Olympic opening ceremony. She looked like she was miming as she was slightly out of sync, they went on to reveal that it was a much less aesthetically pleasing little girl who actually sang it, and they replaced her with the prettier girl to "promote the right image". Sort of like David Prowse and James Earl Jones. Bastards.

Yep. "In the best interests of the country" they said. They even went as far to say that the real singer "wasn't flawless enough" to be put on stage.

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forwhich

It's great to see so many friendly replies,I just could say that the world is still not a village yet,we were too far away, we were in two different worlds

 

Because of the language problem,people beyond China are hard to get to the "B side " of a stuff.For example,in that news about Chinese girls robbed a gold metal from Americans,what we Chinese can see is that they are beautiful,elegant,friendly and so on,although a little embrassing during the game(most of them were the first time attending such a great event).But what was that report about?What I remember the most clearly is that the reporter make a dig at these girls with the words"a mile-wide smile".

 

And that's the difference.People beyond China lived and grew up in this environment£¬in which they can only see the .burning satire and freezing irony about China .It's no wonder why China is so hated around world

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Breaking Bohan
It's great to see so many friendly replies,I just could say that the world is still not a village yet,we were too far away, we were in two different worlds

 

Because of the language problem,people beyond China are hard to get to the "B side " of a stuff.For example,in that news about Chinese girls robbed a gold metal from Americans,what we Chinese can see is that they are beautiful,elegant,friendly and so on,although a little embrassing during the game(most of them were the first time attending such a great event).But what was that report about?What I remember the most clearly is that the reporter make a dig at these girls with the words"a mile-wide smile".

 

And that's the difference.People beyond China lived and grew up in this environment£¬in which they can only see the .burning satire and freezing irony about China .It's no wonder why China is so hated around world

The only report I saw that was critical of the girls who won the gold metal from China was that some of the girl's were believed to be underage. Although news organizations did some investigations, I don't know if the evidence is clear or not, I'm not sure it matters. They got better scores and won ... people just get upset when the lose.

 

The only person who hates china for some reason is lou dobbs on cnn (but he's not taken very seriously).

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forwhich
It's great to see so many friendly replies,I just could say that the world is still not a village yet,we were too far away, we were in two different worlds

 

Because of the language problem,people beyond China are hard to get to the "B side " of a stuff.For example,in that news about Chinese girls robbed a gold metal from Americans,what we Chinese can see is that they are beautiful,elegant,friendly and so on,although a little embrassing during the game(most of them were the first time attending such a great event).But what was that report about?What I remember the most clearly is that the reporter make a dig at these girls with the words"a mile-wide smile".

 

And that's the difference.People beyond China lived and grew up in this environment£¬in which they can only see the .burning satire and freezing irony about China .It's no wonder why China is so hated around world

The only report I saw that was critical of the girls who won the gold metal from China was that some of the girl's were believed to be underage. Although news organizations did some investigations, I don't know if the evidence is clear or not, I'm not sure it matters. They got better scores and won ... people just get upset when the lose.

 

The only person who hates china for some reason is lou dobbs on cnn (but he's not taken very seriously).

Well£¬you can say so...I don't want to be critical but you should admit that China is not what a good ,positive word to many many people.

 

And about the media,I remember that in the book "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix ", at the beginning,Hermione said to Harry that the "The Prophet Daily" were saying bad things about him,this was just like the situation here.They don't say that directly like "Damn China""It's an evil country",instead they mixed their ¡°sarcastic ridicule¡± into everything.And that's the best way to make people dislike China from the bottom of their heart,instinctively

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Breaking Bohan
It's great to see so many friendly replies,I just could say that the world is still not a village yet,we were too far away, we were in two different worlds

 

Because of the language problem,people beyond China are hard to get to the "B side " of a stuff.For example,in that news about Chinese girls robbed a gold metal from Americans,what we Chinese can see is that they are beautiful,elegant,friendly and so on,although a little embrassing during the game(most of them were the first time attending such a great event).But what was that report about?What I remember the most clearly is that the reporter make a dig at these girls with the words"a mile-wide smile".

 

And that's the difference.People beyond China lived and grew up in this environment£¬in which they can only see the .burning satire and freezing irony about China .It's no wonder why China is so hated around world

The only report I saw that was critical of the girls who won the gold metal from China was that some of the girl's were believed to be underage. Although news organizations did some investigations, I don't know if the evidence is clear or not, I'm not sure it matters. They got better scores and won ... people just get upset when the lose.

 

The only person who hates china for some reason is lou dobbs on cnn (but he's not taken very seriously).

Well£¬you can say so...I don't want to be critical but you should admit that China is not what a good ,positive word to many many people.

 

And about the media,I remember that in the book "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix ", at the beginning,Hermione said to Harry that the "The Prophet Daily" were saying bad things about him,this was just like the situation here.They don't say that directly like "Damn China""It's an evil country",instead they mixed their ¡°sarcastic ridicule¡± into everything.And that's the best way to make people dislike China from the bottom of their heart,instinctively

Well, it is true that some people probably don't like China because it's a communist country - they will likely come right out and say so (like Lou Dobbs). Some probably don't like China because they are scared or racist or for personal reasons.

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forwhich
Well, it is true that some people probably don't like China because it's a communist country - they will likely come right out and say so (like Lou Dobbs). Some probably don't like China because they are scared or racist or for personal reasons.

Yeah....It's such a bad fact here

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Breaking Bohan

well china may have poor human rights record, but the other day - after about 12 beers - I realized that some of their olympians were kind of cute. was it just beer goggles? I don't know - that's why I've decided to have many drinks and look closer tonight ... so far, they don't seem to be quite as hot, but I'll give it time Shifty41s_beerhatsmilie2.gif

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Reincarnated

With China heading so head first into capitalism, they will learn that it is getting harder and harder to hold on to a communism government. This doesn't mean that China will be going democratic anytime soon. In fact, they're doing a swell job holding on to that government type. But hey, you can't have it both ways. You can't be a true capitalistic nation with a communist government and vice versa. Human rights abuses are of course going to be in a country of a billion and with communism as the government. It's not exactly easy to silence that many people!

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Breaking Bohan
With China heading so head first into capitalism, they will learn that it is getting harder and harder to hold on to a communism government. This doesn't mean that China will be going democratic anytime soon. In fact, they're doing a swell job holding on to that government type. But hey, you can't have it both ways. You can't be a true capitalistic nation with a communist government and vice versa. Human rights abuses are of course going to be in a country of a billion and with communism as the government. It's not exactly easy to silence that many people!

I've often thought the same thing ... how can China have billionares living alongside the very poor if it is a communist country? It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It seems like the masses of the C-people will get sick of the income-inequality and toss the entire gov't over - just like obama plans to do. It's only a matter of time ..........

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Seachmall
With China heading so head first into capitalism, they will learn that it is getting harder and harder to hold on to a communism government. This doesn't mean that China will be going democratic anytime soon. In fact, they're doing a swell job holding on to that government type. But hey, you can't have it both ways. You can't be a true capitalistic nation with a communist government and vice versa. Human rights abuses are of course going to be in a country of a billion and with communism as the government. It's not exactly easy to silence that many people!

I've often thought the same thing ... how can China have billionares living alongside the very poor if it is a communist country? It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It seems like the masses of the C-people will get sick of the income-inequality and toss the entire gov't over - just like obama plans to do. It's only a matter of time ..........

I remember on an episode of 'Paul Merton's China' he interviewed some high class, multi-millionaires about the state of China and the Human Rights and as far as they were concerned China had no human rights issues. It was a perfect country where everyone is well off. It then cut to poor people ravaging through a dump looking for materials to build their shanty town and for food. Merton wouldn't say where the dump was and he blurred everyones faces as he was told if the police saw the tape all the people would be arrested.

 

The problem is that noone steps out of their class, that is, the rich never see the middle class or the poor and vice-versa. As far as everyone else is concerned everyone is in their situation and the censorship doesn't help.

 

Why fight something if you're not aware of how things could be?

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Lioshenka

 

Talk to a Chinese person, they know so little about true democracy that they don't realize how much their system oppresses them.

Just like stupid Indians lived in their barbaric tribes and knew nothing about democracy before Europeans came in and shown them. Sadly not many of them lived to see today!

 

I don't really think people need to know that they can live better. I don't have a mansion and a car and it makes me sad. If I did not knew that one can have them I probably would be very happy for achieving what I can achieve.

 

About Internet Censoring - why noone mentiones Georgia where they have blocked all Russian TV, wireless stations and Internet sites??? And they believe to be a best democracy in Caucasus.

 

Now, back on topic. My personal opinion is that China is fine. For centuries people lieved like that and I doubt any changes would be good. Yes, there are some very poor places there, but I think it is kind of hard to control a country with 2 mlrd of people.

 

Of course everyone can have an opinion, but I guess only the Chinese can decide what they want.

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Seachmall
Of course everyone can have an opinion[...]

Unless you live in China, then your opinion will be censored depending on it content.

 

but I guess only the Chinese can decide what they want.
The Chinese people should have a right to decide but the problem is that they're not given that right.

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Lioshenka

 

Of course everyone can have an opinion[...]

Unless you live in China, then your opinion will be censored depending on it content.

That's the secret why China is still one powerful country.

 

 

 

but I guess only the Chinese can decide what they want.
The Chinese people should have a right to decide but the problem is that they're not given that right.

That is what you think. Say, if half of people (that's 1 mlrd) don't like government (that's no more than 10 000)... Why we haven't seen a revolution there yet?

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Ph3L1z14n0

This may cause a little ruckus on the topic, but China is not a comunist country, it's the product of totalitarism, which are both very different things, and this precisely has caused many problems to the region, such as under-development and the prohibition of many liberties that every chinese should have.

 

Now, on other matters with China formally "getting into capitalism" i believe like many people here that China will rule the world, the chinese raised the prices of milk all over the world merely because they started drinking it, they are so many that their influence in many matters is almost like a silent nuke.

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Breaking Bohan

I saw on the news yesterday about the tainted baby formula problem ... and today they think it may also spread to milk and gogurt sad.gif

 

 

They need to stop adding industrial chemicals to foodstuffs ... and soon!

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Lioshenka
They need to stop adding industrial chemicals to foodstuffs ... and soon!

I wonder what do they add into LIDLs food and in the BettaBuy food in Morrisons. I mean, a decent can of beans costs 60 p. And they offer similar cans for like 7 or 9 p! mercie_blink.gif

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Jesta

Wait until they get richer, eventually the wealth will be spread to the people, and they will be well on the way to human rights and even democracy. It's only a matter of time, provided that McCain doesn't get into the white house and cut them out of the G8, wich is just ridiculous.

 

"On March 26, McCain gave a speech on foreign policy in Los Angeles that was billed as his most comprehensive statement on the subject. It contained within it the most radical idea put forward by a major candidate for the presidency in 25 years. Yet almost no one noticed.

 

In his speech McCain proposed that the United States expel Russia from the G8, the group of advanced industrial countries. Moscow was included in this body in the 1990s to recognize and reward it for peacefully ending the cold war on Western terms, dismantling the Soviet empire and withdrawing from large chunks of the old Russian Empire as well. McCain also proposed that the United States should expand the G8 by taking in India and Brazil-but pointedly excluded China from the councils of power.

 

We have spent months debating Barack Obama's suggestion that he might, under some circumstances, meet with Iranians and Venezuelans. It is a sign of what is wrong with the foreign-policy debate that this idea is treated as a revolution in U.S. policy while McCain's proposal has barely registered. What McCain has announced is momentous-that the United States should adopt a policy of active exclusion and hostility toward two major global powers. It would reverse a decades-old bipartisan American policy of integrating these two countries into the global order, a policy that began under Richard Nixon (with Beijing) and continued under Ronald Reagan (with Moscow). It is a policy that would alienate many countries in Europe and Asia who would see it as an attempt by Washington to begin a new cold war.

 

I write this with sadness because I greatly admire John McCain, a man of intelligence, honor and enormous personal and political courage. I also agree with much of what else he said in that speech in Los Angeles. But in recent years, McCain has turned into a foreign-policy schizophrenic, alternating between neoconservative posturing and realist common sense. His speech reads like it was written by two very different people, each one given an allotment of a few paragraphs on every topic.

 

The neoconservative vision within the speech is essentially an affirmation of ideology. Not only does it declare war on Russia and China, it places the United States in active opposition to all nondemocracies. "

Link. (http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/fareed_zakaria/2008/04/mccains_radical_foreign_policy.html)

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Lioshenka

They are NOT in G8, so he can't exculde them, but he said that he won't let them in. Noone cares. G8 does not decide anything, to be honest UN and NATO or any other organisation doesn't decide anything, although they set some rules, but that it entirely up to people in charge whether to obey those rules and whether to force others to do so.

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lloydo

I would like to myself a Communist, but China, to me, doesn't meet the expectations of Marx's interpretation. However, in the UK i would rather give up a few liberties in return for common sense policies. Anyone know the crime rate in China?

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Breaking Bohan
I would like to myself a Communist, but China, to me, doesn't meet the expectations of Marx's interpretation. However, in the UK i would rather give up a few liberties in return for common sense policies. Anyone know the crime rate in China?

I don't think there is any crime there ... it's a utopia!

Even if there was crime, I doubt it would be reported since the gov't controlls the media.

 

I agree that Marx would likely not be impressed ... it seems like the working man is getting fisted by the gov't over there on a regular basis ... and while that may happen everywhere, at least we can vote them out of office.

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lloydo

 

I would like to myself a Communist, but China, to me, doesn't meet the expectations of Marx's interpretation. However, in the UK i would rather give up a few liberties in return for common sense policies. Anyone know the crime rate in China?

I don't think there is any crime there ... it's a utopia!

Even if there was crime, I doubt it would be reported since the gov't controlls the media.

 

I agree that Marx would likely not be impressed ... it seems like the working man is getting fisted by the gov't over there on a regular basis ... and while that may happen everywhere, at least we can vote them out of office.

What do you mean about the UK being a utopia? lol.gif

 

I know what you mean, about the ability of voting politicians out of office, but maybe the Chinese state could become less corrupt and more democratic if it did what Marx said and "whither away..." for the Soviets!

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Jesta
They are NOT in G8, so he can't exculde them, but he said that he won't let them in. Noone cares. G8 does not decide anything, to be honest UN and NATO or any other organisation doesn't decide anything, although they set some rules, but that it entirely up to people in charge whether to obey those rules and whether to force others to do so.

He's kust trying to weaken them and piss them off, so America can remain the worlds super power.

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Breaking Bohan

I saw on CNN webcite today that a major British candymaker is now forced to recall their chocolates because regulators discovered poison chineese chemicals in the food.

 

We must ask ourselves why the british and chineese are trying to poison the children of the world - who only want to enjoy non-toxic candy and such sad.gif

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