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jelly

Caucasus conflict

Recommended Posts

Barciur

 

Georgia says its forces have withdrawn from the separatist enclave of South Ossetia, and that Russian troops are now in control of the regional capital.

 

An interior ministry spokesman told the BBC it was not a military defeat but a necessary step to protect civilians from a "humanitarian catastrophe".

 

Georgia says Russia has brought an additional 10,000 soldiers across its frontiers, readying for a raid.

 

Earlier, Russian jets bombed a military airfield close to the Georgian capital.

 

There was no independent confirmation of the attack, although the BBC's Gabriel Gatehouse, who was in Tbilisi, said he had heard a loud explosion about the same time.

 

Georgian troops have pulled back to positions at or south of those held on 6 August, when the current hostilities began, said Georgian Interior Ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili.

 

He told the BBC that the withdrawal was necessary because of the mass casualties both within Georgia and South Ossetia, at the hands of the Russians.

 

Mr Utiashvili said 100 Georgian soldiers had been killed and many more injured.

 

Earlier, Georgia's President Mikhail Saakashvili called for an immediate ceasefire to stop what he described as an "annihilation" of his country's democracy.

 

In the absence of independent verification, there are conflicting figures about the casualties suffered on both sides but the numbers appeared to rise sharply on Saturday.

 

Based on Russian and South Ossetian estimates, the death toll on the South Ossetian side was at least 1,500. According to Moscow, all but a few of the dead were civilians.

 

'Fatal blow'

 

Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has accused Georgia of genocide against the South Ossetian people and defended Moscow's military action to intervene directly.

 

On Saturday, he flew to the Russian city of Vladikavkaz, close to the border with South Ossetia, where he met those who had fled the violence.

 

He said the territorial integrity of Georgia had "suffered a fatal blow", suggesting that it was unlikely that South Ossetia would re-integrate with the rest of Georgia after the conflict.

 

He said the conflict had created at least 34,000 refugees.

 

This figure wildly conflicts with that cited by the UN refugee agency, which it says is based on information supplied by both sides.

 

The UN estimates that about 2,400 people have fled South Ossetia to other parts of Georgia while between 4,000 and 5,000 have crossed the border into Russia.

 

Meanwhile, a joint delegation of the US, EU and the Organisation of Security and Co-operation in Europe is heading to Georgia in the hope of brokering a truce.

 

It comes as a third emergency session of the UN Security Council ended without an agreement on the wording of a statement calling for a ceasefire.

 

 

 

But emissaries from the US and Europe who are Nato members may not be seen as honest brokers by the Kremlin when it comes to Georgia, BBC's diplomatic correspondent Bridget Kendall says.

 

The danger now is that Russia will not only use this crisis to demonstrate its military power in the region, but argue it is time to redraw the map, she adds.

 

Moscow has said there can be no "consultations" with Georgia unless Georgian forces withdraw to the positions they held outside South Ossetia before Thursday.

 

Meanwhile Russian jets have bombed several towns, including the central Georgian city of Gori, where Georgian troops had been massing to support forces engaged in South Ossetia.

 

Georgian TV has also shown pictures of damage to the Black Sea port of Poti, the site of a major oil shipment facility, after a reported Russian air strike.

 

President Saakashvili told the BBC on Saturday that Moscow wanted to take control of energy routes to Europe and accused it of "war crimes" against civilians.

 

His parliament has approved a presidential decree declaring that the country is in a state of war for 15 days.

 

The question is are Russians going to attack or cease fire?

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TFatseas

Now we wait and see.

 

If they cease their advance and only hold South Ossetia, Russia can wait and see which way the international pressure flows. Russia might take control of the Georgian government without additional fighting or they maintain their foothold and can try again later.

 

On the other hand, the hard-liners may feel they have already "committed" to this and must see it through. Or that the pipeline must be destroyed and Georgia kept out of NATO. In which case, things may get very interesting indeed.

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K^2

If, and that's a big if, Georgia really pulled out all its forces, the fighting will stop. Russia has no reasons to fight on. They have captured South Ossetia, destroyed the port of Poti, which is where most of the oil went through, and have nearly guaranteed that Georgia doesn't get into NATO by virtue of its own dumb actions.

 

Now, if Georgia really retreated and ordered cease fire, and Russians go on bombing objects and fighting, I withdraw all my support for actions of Russian Government. But I am positive that this will not happen.

 

 

See heres another problem, I believe that the Russians giving the Ossetians full citizenship is illegal.

 

On what basis can the Russians give citizenship of people in another country, Georgia? Not to mention they have NEVER been a part of the Russian Federation. They are not even ethnic Russians.

 

I can't even find a reason in Russia's own legislation.

Here

Article 14, section b). If South Ossetians void their Georgian citizenship, they, as stateless ex-citizens of USSR, are eligible to file for citizenship in Russian Federation. I'm pretty sure that's what happened.

 

Of course, they then become illegals in Georgia. But that's a problem for Georgian immigration, as I said before. Georgia had full rights to deport them, but not to kill them, as they are protected by Russian Federation, and under Constitution of Russian Federation, when Georgia has killed these citizens, Russia became automatically involved.

 

This was not some error on part of Georgia. Georgian government was aware of the situation and therefore, knowingly performed an act of aggression against citizens of Russian Federation, and therefore, an act of aggression against Russian Federation.

 

For them to later claim that they have done nothing to deserve the response of Russian military is the highest level of dishonesty.

 

They were provoked, Russian backed Rebels provoked them. South Ossetia's government is practically under Moscow's direct control.

First of all, separatists have been fighting the Georgian government on and off for over a decade. What's so different now? Why did Georgia suddenly decide to bomb Tskhinvali?

 

But ok, lets even leave that alone for a moment. Lets simplify it. A small group of South Ossetians, who lets even presume were citizens of Russian Federation, and under instructions thereof, have committed an act of terror against Georgian military. Now, I'm assuming a whole lot to make it sound as bad as possible. Georgia decides that enough is enough, and sends in troops to Tskhinvali to get rid of the separatists.

 

I'm fine with it up to this point. Georgia had every right to be pissed, and they could even kick 90% of population out across the border. They face resistance from separatists. Not surprising.

 

Now here is where I have a problem with it. Instead of fighting the separatists. Instead of even having their artillery shell separatist points, Georgia carpet-bombs Tskinvali, killing off citizens of Russian Federation. This is not an act of retribution. This is an act of ethnic cleansing if I ever saw one.

 

To not expect Russian Federation to send in the army after that is ridiculous. Russia had not only the right, but responsibility to respond.

 

claiming they have not carried out an act of aggression against Russia when they have shelled Russian peace keepers with targeted fire

 

What right did those 'peacekeepers' have to be in Georgian territory?

Ok, you need to start paying attention here.

 

These Peace Keepers, both Russian and Georgian, were on the territory of South Ossetia by virtue of international agreement that Russia and Georgia have signed. They were there to minimize friction between separatist militia and Georgian regulars. Russian Peace Keepers kept the separatist militia in S.O., while Georgian Peace Keepers were responsible for keeping the Georgian regular military out of there.

 

That is until Georgia decided to attack Tskhinvali and ordered Georgian "Peace Keepers" to attack their Russian counterparts. By international law, this alone constitutes an act of war against Russian Federation by Georgia.

 

You still think Russia is the aggressor? Really?

 

Please, actually read the news. Not the propaganda crap, but actual news.

 

 

So, lets summarize. Georgian military kills Russian Peace Keepers that were in South Ossetia by agreement with Georgia. Georgia agreed to let them be there. They were an entirely legitimate Russian force that got attacked. Then Georgia proceeds to kill hundreds of Russian citizens, almost all of whom were not part of the separatist militia. We know that because almost all of the militia has escaped the city prior to it, and have been fighting Georgian regulars after the shelling of the city.

 

Russia moving in its forces was not an act of aggression, but a response to an act of aggression by Georgia.

 

Edit: Looks like Georgia might not have actually pulled out: BBC Article. Somebody is B.S.-ing; hard to say who at this point. We'll see, I guess.

Edited by K^2

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yuiop8

This war is simillar to war in Croatia. Croatia didn't have Guns because Serbia tooked all the guns so we waited for 4 years an atacked Serbian teritory that they gained during the war. That famous operation is called storm

 

STORM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oluja

 

CROATIAN WAR

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_War_of_Independence

Edited by yuiop8

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Hart

Right, just woke up and have read all new comments. Any new updates? Any (reliable) figures etc?

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K^2

For these who have no clue what's going on, and don't want to bother sifting through tons of conflicting information from the press, the Wikipedia page seems to be mostly on target.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_South_Ossetia_(2008)

 

I have briefly read over it, and I don't see any serious problems at the time of the post.

 

Keep in mind that the article's information is not necessarily 100% reliable, and that it can be edited to be completely unreliable by a biased party.

 

Edit:

 

Any new updates?

Spokesman for Georgian Internal Affairs Ministry stated that Georgian troops are withdrawing from South Ossetia. However, their Reintegration Minister stated that the forces have "relocated".

 

Russian Peacekeeping Spokesman also stated that Georgian forces have not withdrawn, and there are various reports of ongoing fighting in South Ossetia.

 

Basically, we don't know at this point if Georgia is really trying to pull out, or if it is a disinformation on part of Georgian government.

Edited by K^2

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yuiop8

I hate russia because they had volonteurs that signed up to atack Croatia with Serbia

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K^2
I hate russia because they had volonteurs that signed up to atack Croatia with Serbia

War between Croatia and Serbia turned into an ugly ethnic war. That should not have happened, but when forces, on both sides, started killing people just because they were Serbian/Croatian, regardless of the age and gender, a lot of people start feeling that it is all very "us vs them".

 

To hate somebody because of the side they picked then is to be part of the problem that caused that war to turn ugly in the first place.

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Hart
For these who have no clue what's going on, and don't want to bother sifting through tons of conflicting information from the press, the Wikipedia page seems to be mostly on target.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_South_Ossetia_(2008)

 

I have briefly read over it, and I don't see any serious problems at the time of the post.

 

Keep in mind that the article's information is not necessarily 100% reliable, and that it can be edited to be completely unreliable by a biased party.

 

Edit:

 

Any new updates?

Spokesman for Georgian Internal Affairs Ministry stated that Georgian troops are withdrawing from South Ossetia. However, their Reintegration Minister stated that the forces have "relocated".

 

Russian Peacekeeping Spokesman also stated that Georgian forces have not withdrawn, and there are various reports of ongoing fighting in South Ossetia.

 

Basically, we don't know at this point if Georgia is really trying to pull out, or if it is a disinformation on part of Georgian government.

Well it would be smart for them to pull out, might aswell do it sooner than later.

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K^2
look at this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o32wI3_od0 it shows that serbian army with tenks runing from Croatian military runned over their own civilans

Very sad sights. What is your point? There was a war. A lot of people have done a lot of horrible things. These people should, and a lot of them have been, punished for their actions.

 

This should not be the basis of your view on people of another nation. Otherwise, we'll never see the end of all these wars.

 

Well it would be smart for them to pull out, might aswell do it sooner than later.

"Smart" isn't always what you get when you have "Desperate". After what has happened, I don't think Georgian leaders will remain in power much longer, and they know it. They might try something drastic. They might also be hoping for the cavalry, that is United States, to show up.

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Typhus
EDIT: @ Typhus: Yeah, I suppose you're right, but in terms of least casualtys etc, Russia will win.

That's true but what if a Russian victory were to simply fire up those who hate that country? If you're trying to keep a strong grip on things and there is a sudden act of defiance it encourages others to take their chances.

Look at our country, after 7/7 the security situation has only grown worse. Because the terrorists were inspired to raise the bar.

The same thing could happen here, Georgia will lose many troops and Russia will lose a little of her strength. Like a bee sting, one isn't that bad but when you suddenly find a whole swarm engulfing you it's a different story entirely.

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K^2
EDIT: @ Typhus: Yeah, I suppose you're right, but in terms of least casualtys etc, Russia will win.

That's true but what if a Russian victory were to simply fire up those who hate that country? If you're trying to keep a strong grip on things and there is a sudden act of defiance it encourages others to take their chances.

Look at our country, after 7/7 the security situation has only grown worse. Because the terrorists were inspired to raise the bar.

The same thing could happen here, Georgia will lose many troops and Russia will lose a little of her strength. Like a bee sting, one isn't that bad but when you suddenly find a whole swarm engulfing you it's a different story entirely.

General rule, and this has been true through the ages, is that if a tyrant strikes against a rebellion, squashes it, and suffers little losses, other rebels will be getting quieter.

 

It is only when the tyrant's forces suffer a proportionally greater loss, that it gets other rebels fired up.

 

Similar situation is true of nations. If nobody else enters the conflict, Russia will suffer very little losses, and will only gain authority in the region. It will be seen as a solid protector, and other countries will seek its support.

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nlitement

I was in Russian Karelia at the time and we totally saw SAMs shoot down Georgian airplanes.

 

I wish.

 

 

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RockstarFan

Man I've had enough of BBC news, just then they interviewed Alexander Rondeli (president of the Georgian Foundation for Strategic and International Studies) and of course he is calling Putin a bandit and a gangster and talked about Russian propaganda. Yesterday they interviewed the President of Georgia, now when the f*ck are we gonna hear Russia's side of the story? All the news been doing for the past few days is to try and find the right side. And of course they seem to be taking Georgia's side. Now I'm not saying they should be taking Georgia's side but we've yet to hear Putin or whoever get interviewed by someone. I know thats not gonna happen because lets face it, Georgia is trying to get international help thats why they are on western news speaking English.

 

I also heard that Saakashvili addressed Georgian's in English mercie_blink.gif. If anyone has been watching the news they could've seen how Georgian's had candle lights that spelled out ''STOP RUSSIA'' in English again.

 

I just want to see Russia's official side of the story. They interviewed Georgian president why not Putin?

 

I know there's been the UN dude but still...

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Hart
Man I've had enough of BBC news, just then they interviewed Alexander Rondeli (president of the Georgian Foundation for Strategic and International Studies) and of course he is calling Putin a bandit and a gangster and talked about Russian propaganda. Yesterday they interviewed the President of Georgia, now when the f*ck are we gonna hear Russia's side of the story? All the news been doing for the past few days is to try and find the right side. And of course they seem to be taking Georgia's side. Now I'm not saying they should be taking Georgia's side but we've yet to hear Putin or whoever get interviewed by someone. I know thats not gonna happen because lets face it, Georgia is trying to get international help thats why they are on western news speaking English.

 

I also heard that Saakashvili addressed Georgian's in English mercie_blink.gif. If anyone has been watching the news they could've seen how Georgian's had candle lights that spelled out ''STOP RUSSIA'' in English again.

 

I just want to see Russia's official side of the story. They interviewed Georgian president why not Putin?

 

I know there's been the UN dude but still...

Dont jump to conclusions, they could be interviewing him today or tomorrow.

 

 

Unlikely though.

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Hart
This part of press conference with Russian Foreign Minister is the only interview covering the "Russian side" that I could find on BBC.

 

"Implementing our dutys to prevent bloodshed"

 

That made me laugh.

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RockstarFan

Just now on Sky news the Russian advisor in UK said that BBC has only been showing interviews of Saakashvili and the Georgian side of the story pretty much, and yet to interview a Russian representative.

 

To actually know what is going on and why, people need to dig into the history of South Ossetia and its relation to Russia and Georgia.

No one knows officially just why the heck its happening

Edited by RockstarFan

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SPMovies

"Russia also laid much of the responsibility for ending the fighting on the United States, which has trained Georgian troops."

 

This is on the wikipage, but Im confused with it. I think it means that the US helped stopped the fighting, but then it says we trained Georgian troops. So yeah? confused.gif

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Hart
"Russia also laid much of the responsibility for ending the fighting on the United States, which has trained Georgian troops."

 

This is on the wikipage, but Im confused with it. I think it means that the US helped stopped the fighting, but then it says we trained Georgian troops. So yeah? confused.gif

I wouldnt trust Wiki too much, especially on political matters.

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brz59

E: News changed for some reason, never mind that

 

 

 

Russia Today claims that Georgians are continuing to attack civilians in South Ossetia and burned down a church with people inside...

http://www.russiatoday.ru/news/news/28749/video

 

Their perspective, if anyone's interested sarcasm.gif

Edited by brz59

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Breaking Bohan

Breaking News at Sky News:

Georgia has ordered its forces to cease fire in the rebel province of South Ossetia and offered to immediately begin talks with Russia to end the fighting that has killed hundreds of people.

Russian forces are in control of its principal city, Tskhinvali, and its jets have also bombed Georgia's capital, Tblisi.

 

The president of Abkhazia, another region that wants independence from Georgia, has decreed a 10-day "state of war" in some border areas.

 

 

-----------

Well that seems good, no?

Edited by Breaking Bohan

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Barciur

 

Georgia has ordered its forces to cease fire, and offered to start talks with Russia over an end to hostilities in South Ossetia, Georgian officials say.

 

Earlier Georgia said its troops had pulled out of the breakaway region and that Russian forces were in control of its capital, Tskhinvali.

 

Thousands of civilians have fled the area, following heavy fighting that broke out on Thursday night.

 

The US has described Russia's actions as "dangerous and disproportionate".

 

US Deputy National Security Adviser James Jeffrey warned that if the Russian escalation continued, it would have a "significant" long-term impact on relations between Moscow and Washington.

 

Fighting in South Ossetia was reported to be less intense on Sunday, as Russian forces took control and Georgian troops drew back.

 

Local residents fleeing the area on Sunday morning told the BBC there was continued fighting on the outskirts of Tskhinvali, although the city itself was relatively quiet.

 

But Georgia said Russian jets were still carrying out bombing raids, including hitting a military airfield close to the Georgian capital, Tbilisi

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TFatseas

 

Sweden evokes Hitler in condemning Russian assault

 

August 9, 2008

Agence France Presse

 

Sweden has evoked the memory of Adolf Hitler in condemning Russia's attacks on Georgia over the breakaway region of South Ossetia, saying the protection of Russians there did not justify the assault.

 

"No state has the right to intervene militarily in the territory of another state simply because there are individuals there with a passport issued by that state or who are nationals of the state," said Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt in a statement.

 

"Attempts to apply such a doctrine have plunged Europe into war in the past... And we have reason to remember how Hitler used this very doctrine little more than half a century ago to undermine and attack substantial parts of central Europe," Bildt said.

 

Russian warplanes on Saturday bombed targets in Georgia as that country's president declared "a state of war", while Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said his country would "force the Georgian side into peace."

 

Russia backs the separatist government in South Ossetia and sent in tanks and troops on Friday in response to pro-Western Georgia's military campaign to take back the province which broke away in the early 1990s.

 

Sweden has called for an immediate end to bombing raids and the withdrawal of Russian troops that have entered Georgia to allow for a peaceful solution to the conflict.

 

Earlier on Saturday, Sweden joined calls for an emergency European Union summit on the escalating conflict in Georgia. Bildt said EU foreign ministers could gather on Monday in Paris.

 

"There must be a very strong response on the part of the European Union," said Bildt, quoted by Sweden's TT news agency.

 

Sweden's top diplomat was the international community's high representative in Bosnia-Hercegovina in 1996-1997 following the Balkan wars.

 

Bildt also evoked the memory of the late Serbian strongman Slobodan Milosevic in addressing Russia's agression against Georgia.

 

"We did not accept military intervention by Milosevic's Sserbia in other Yugoslav states on the grounds of protecting Serbian passport holders," he said.

 

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Breaking Bohan

Wow, CNN gives the coverage a bit of airtime this morning. The news about a potential conflict w/ Ukraine is troubling.

 

From CNN:

Georgia accuses Russia of executing a long-planned war with the aim of taking control of the pipeline that carries Asian oil to Black Sea ports.

 

Russia's Black Sea Navy imposed a blockade on Georgia's coast, which it said was aimed at stopping shipments of military supplies into the country, according to Interfax, Russia's official news agency.

 

Urkaine, a former Soviet republic like Georgia, said it might prevent Russian navy ships involved in the blockade from returning to their bases in the Crimea, an spokeswoman with Urkaine's foreign ministry said.

 

 

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Barciur
Well that seems good, no?

Maybe. depends what russia does now

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TFatseas

 

Ukraine threatens to bar Russian warships

 

10 Aug 2008 09:25:09 GMT

Source: Reuters

 

MOSCOW, Aug 10 (Reuters) - Ukraine said on Sunday it reserved the right to bar Russian warships dispatched to the Georgian coast from returning to their Ukrainian base of Sevastopol, Interfax news agency reported.

 

"Ukraine ... reserves the right to bar warships and vessels which could take part in the action (conflict with Georgia) from returning to Ukrainian territory until the conflict is solved," it said, quoting a Ukrainian Foreign Ministry statement.

 

Russia's Black Sea Fleet is based in the Ukrainian port of Sevastopol.

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TFatseas

One more

 

Link

 

 

Russian Navy Blockades Humanitarian Wheat Shipment to Georgia

Sunday, 10 August 2008 01:00 Ramaz Mitaishvili

E-mail Print PDF

The Navy of the Russian Federation today appeared to have taken a further escalatory step in its aggressive war against Georgia. “The Russian Navy is imposing an illegal blockade on Georgia,” said Alexander Lomaia, Secretary of National Security Council of Georgia, late on Saturday. Over the last 48 hours, Russian naval vessels have turned back several ships bound for Georgia with humanitarian supplies.

 

“Today,” said Lomaia, “the Russian Navy intercepted Lotus I, a Moldovan-flagged merchant vessel carrying wheat.” The ship was turned away, denying the Georgian population an essential food shipment.

 

This latest Russian move against Georgian civilians comes amidst indiscriminate Russian attacks on non-combatants. Notably, this morning, Russian warplanes struck an apartment block in Gori. Georgian authorities fear that about sixty people may have perished in the rubble. In Poti itself, Russian fighter jets attacked the oil terminal, port facilities and a nearby railroad junction. Several civilians was injured.

 

“The Russian military appears bent on shooting, burning and now starving innocent civilians,” Lomaia said.

 

As part of its military assault on its southern neighbor, Russia steamed elements of its Black Sea Fleet from their base at Sevastopol, Ukraine toward Georgian territorial waters. The force includes three amphibious assault vessels, two anti-submarine warfare vessels, a reconnaissance ship, two minesweepers, two missile boats, a missile cruiser and a variety of aircraft.

 

The Russian warships appear bound for Ochamchire, a former Soviet naval base in the Georgian territory of Abkhazia and for blockade duty off Georgia’s Black Sea coast.

 

“It is impossible that this anything to do with South Ossetia,” Lomaia remarked. “It is a grab for Abkhazia and a punishment for Georgia’s democratic inclination—naked aggression and wanton disregard for international law!”

 

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RockstarFan

Jesus Christ! BBC is interviewing Saakashvili again.

Meanwhile Sky News has a live transmission from UN.

 

Man, Ukraine better not do anything stupid.

Edited by RockstarFan

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