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agent17

Georgia attacks South Ossetia

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K^2

 

. Georgia military didn't just go into the city and met resistance. They started bombing the sh*t out of the city before they even moved the troops in. That's not attacking separatist groups. That's slaughtering general population.

 

Russian Federation is required to protect its citizens, both by Russian and International laws. Russia had full rights to send the army into South Ossetia.

So why did they vote independent from both Georgia and Russia? Not to mention South Ossetia broke away from Georgia and are within their internationally recognized territory. And not one country recognizes South Ossetia as a sovereign nation, not even Russia.

 

The Georgian attack was in response to Ossetian separatists attacks over the last couple weeks. (Not to mention the tit for tat attacks over the last couple years.) Georgia has every right to respond in kind.

Don't misunderstand me. Georgia has the right to attempt to reclaim the territory. That's not the problem.

 

What Georgia does not have a right to do is carpet bomb an entire city. Especially, one filled with other state's citizens. And they most certainly have no right to make artillery strikes on peace keeping forces of another nation.

 

 

Even with the peace keepers aside, when Yugoslavian forces tried to stop Kosovo from separating using similar methods, NATO bombed Yugoslavia. It was considered to be an unacceptable use of the force by the state of Yugoslavia, regardless of it being their own territory. Russia does the same thing here. The difference being that Russian Federation is protecting its own people, which is why Russia moved its forces in immediately, without waiting for a response by NATO or any other organization.

 

I do agree that Russia has other interests in the region, and I'm sure they'll use the conflict as an excuse to fulfill these. But that does not change the fact that they had full rights to move in the forces.

 

Up to this point, every action taken by Russian military has been 100% justifiable. We'll see how it goes from here.

 

 

Whoever thinks the Georgians are the agressors needs to reevaluate.

You need to stop relying on a single news source for your info. A propaganda sh*tstorm has already begun, and it will only be getting worse. Please, get your info from an unbiased source. BBC tends to do a good job. And indeed, if you read BBC coverage, you'll note that it simply gives you the facts.

 

Most other sources have already picked sides. I've seen reports going anywhere from Russia simply invading Georgia and already bombing their capitol, down to complete opposite, where Georgians are claimed to go into the city and finish off wounded Russian peace keepers on the streets. It's all propaganda.

 

Facts are, Georgia bombed the city of Tskhinvali, killing peaceful citizens and peace keepers of Russian Federation. Russian Federation has responded by moving troops and tanks into South Ossetia, as well as bombing several strategic military points in Georgia, including a military air field, base, and a military port.

 

Everything else, such as numbers of the dead, various attacks, and who done what, is grossly misreported and needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

Edited by K^2

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Tony Mozzarelli 80

If a country has US backing, that country automatically has the right to do anything it wants

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TFatseas

 

What Georgia does not have a right to do is carpet bomb an entire city. Especially, one filled with other state's citizens. And they most certainly have no right to make artillery strikes on peace keeping forces of another nation.

 

 

Thats a moral issue, Ossetia is a part of Georgia, Georgia's defensive action falls under international law and Militarily commensurate.

 

So those Russian "peacekeepers" can strike civilian targets(Ports Cities) inside Georgia then? Thats what their airforce as been doing.

 

 

Even with the peace keepers aside, when Yugoslavian forces tried to stop Kosovo from separating using similar methods, NATO bombed Yugoslavia. It was considered to be an unacceptable use of the force by the state of Yugoslavia, regardless of it being their own territory.

 

We went after exclusively military targets, Russia is hitting civilian targets, and by your logic, makes them no better than the Georgians.

 

 

I do agree that Russia has other interests in the region, and I'm sure they'll use the conflict as an excuse to fulfill these. But that does not change the fact that they had full rights to move in the forces.

 

So 'peacekeeping'(Their Excuse) is picking sides, sending an entire tank brigade on offensive maneuvers, and putting air armys in the region, but not trying to keep the belligerent sides apart, ok.

 

Yeah, the Russians are attacking, mobilizing tanks, initiating air raids, but when their soldiers die, they are "peace keepers" and "aid convoys".

 

And the "peace keepers" in turn will punish those who kill them.

 

 

Russia does the same thing here. The difference being that Russian Federation is protecting its own people, which is why Russia moved its forces in immediately, without waiting for a response by NATO or any other organization.

 

That Russian attack happened so fast and effectively, it had to been planned out, there is no way that the attack could of been so successful and coordinated.

 

And what about the 30% who are not Russian citizens? 70% CLAIM to be Russian citizens.

 

 

Up to this point, every action taken by Russian military has been 100% justifiable. We'll see how it goes from here.

 

Addressed above.

 

 

You need to stop relying on a single news source for your info. A propaganda sh*tstorm has already begun, and it will only be getting worse. Please, get your info from an unbiased source. BBC tends to do a good job. And indeed, if you read BBC coverage, you'll note that it simply gives you the facts.

 

 

I've given pently of different sources throughout this thread, including the AP, so don't pin that on me.

Edited by TFatseas

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Barciur

As you may know, Russia attacked Georgian capitol. That is NOT defending their own citizens.

South Ossetia is part of Georgia - Russia has invaded Georgian territory withotu a right - and if every country was protecting its citizens like that? lol. this would be hell on earth.

Russia has attacked Georgian capital as well as other places outside of South Ossetia - they had no right to do that. That's what makes them bad guys - not even attacking South Ossetia any more...

 

The way I see it South Ossetia was an excuse to get into Georgia and occupy it - Georgia is the only country through which you can get gas from and not go through Russia - there you go, strategic point to Russia.

Another thing is Georgia wanted to join NATO - another thing Russia didn't like and is very important to them.

 

 

Up to this point, every action taken by Russian military has been 100% justifiable. We'll see how it goes from here.

Please explain how do you justify bombing Georgian capital that is not in South Ossetia.

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TFatseas

Link

 

 

Georgia: Russia enters into 'war' in South Ossetia

Over 1,300 people are reported dead after Russian forces responded to a Georgian attack on rebels in the breakaway province of South Ossetia by mounting a full scale invasion.

 

 

By Adrian Blomfield in Gori

Last Updated: 1:29AM BST 09 Aug 2008

; http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/b...bctid1719751815 http://www.brightcove.com/channel.jsp?channel=1139053637

 

Columns of Russian tanks plunged the two neighbours into war as they filed into South Ossetia, marking the Kremlin's first military assault on foreign soil since the Soviet Union's Afghanistan intevention, which ended in 1989.

 

Russian tanks rolled towards the capital of South Ossetia and fighters bombed Georgian air bases after Georgia launched attacks on rebels in the breakaway region. South Ossetia won de-facto independence in a war which ended in 1992 but has been a source of tension ever since, along with Abkhazia, another separatist region.

 

Russian peacekeepers have suffered 12 dead and 150 wounded, the peacekeeping forces were quoted as saying by Russian news agencies, while over 1300 civilians are reported to have been killed.

 

"Now our peacekeepers are waging a fierce battle with regular forces from the Georgian army in the southern region of Tskhinvali," a representative of the Russian force was quoted as saying by Interfax.

 

Reports last night claimed that Russia had started to bomb civil and economic infrastructure, including the Black Sea port of Poti and the military base at Senaki. Between 8 and 11 Russian jets reportedly hit container tanks and a shipbuilding plant at the port.

 

"I saw bodies lying on the streets, around ruined buildings, in cars," said Lyudmila Ostayeva, 50, who had fled with her family to Dzhava, a village near the border with Russia.

 

"It's impossible to count them now. There is hardly a single building left undamaged."

 

The confrontation between the two countries deepened in April when Nato promised that Georgia would be allowed to join - although no clear timetable was offered.

 

The European Union was trying to secure a ceasefire in the pro-Russian enclave. The United States and the EU sent a joint delegation to the region in a bid to halt the fighting, while Nato called for an immediate end to the clashes and for direct talks between Russia and Georgia.

 

Any ceasefire would be unlikely to hold. Hours after President Mikheil Saakashvili of Georgia, a devoutly pro-Western leader, declared a unilateral ceasefire on Thursday night, his forces began an artillery barrage against Tskhinvali, the South Ossetian capital.

 

The fighting broke out as much of the world's attention was focused on the start of the Olympic Games. Many leaders, including Russia's Prime Minister Vladimir Putin and President George W Bush, were in Beijing watching the opening ceremony.

 

Mr Putin declared: "War has started." Victor Dolidze, Georgia's ambassador to the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, said: "If this is not war, then I wonder what it is."

 

Mr Dolidze told the OSCE's permanent council in Vienna that Russian forces had been bombing Georgian territory since the morning, according to a diplomat who attended the 45-minute meeting.

 

Vladimir Voronkov, Russia's representative, told the assembly that "the true story is very different." He accused the Georgian side of launching a massive attack in defiance of diplomatic efforts.

 

As the roar of warplanes and the explosion of heavy shells sounded outside Tskhinvali, Sergei Lavrov, the Russian foreign minister, accused the Georgians of driving people from their homes.

 

"We are receiving reports that a policy of ethnic cleansing was being conducted in villages in South Ossetia, the number of refugees is climbing, the panic is growing, people are trying to save their lives," he said in televised remarks from the ministry.

 

Georgia, which would be hugely outnumbered in an all-out confrontation with Russia, said that it had control of the capital, but there were reports of Russian tanks on the outskirts and that Georgian forces had started to retreat.

 

Georgia will withdraw 1,000 soldiers from its military contingent of around 2,000 troops in Iraq to help in the fighting against South Ossetian separatist rebels, a top Georgian official said.

 

Georgia has asked the US military to provide aircraft to move Georgian troops home from Iraq as fighting rages in Georgia's breakaway South Ossetia region, a US military official said Friday.

 

US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice called on Russia to withdraw its troops from Georgia.

 

"The United States calls for an immediate ceasefire to the armed conflict in Georgia's region of South Ossetia," Rice said in a statement.

 

"We call on Russia to cease attacks on Georgia by aircraft and missiles, respect Georgia's territorial integrity, and withdraw its ground combat forces from Georgian soil," she said.

 

The United States is working actively with its European allies to launch international mediation to end the crisis and senior US officials have spoken with the parties in the conflict, she added.

 

A spokesman for EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana: "We repeat our message to all parties to immediately stop the violence."

 

In Washington, State Department spokesman Gonzalo Gallegos said the US was sending an envoy to the region "to engage with the parties in the conflict".

Edited by TFatseas

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K^2

 

So those Russian "peacekeepers" can strike civilian targets(Ports Cities) inside Georgia then? Thats what their airforce as been doing.

You are misinformed. There was a small peace keeping force both from Russian and Georgian in South Ossetia. They were placed there by international agreements that Georgia signed.

 

Russian peace keepers were attacked, and at least 10 killed, when Georgia started attacking the city of Tskhinvali.

 

Russian Federation has then moved in regular army and air force from within Russian territory. These forces have primarily engaged Georgian military in South Ossetia. Several air raids have been made on military targets outside Ossetia. For example, almost immediately, the air base from which Tskinvali was bombed was attacked by Russian bombers. Many aircraft were destroyed there. No lives were lost by reports from both sides. Unfortunately, a few people were killed when Russian air force bombed the Black Sea port, which was also considered immediate threat to forces in South Ossetia. I agree, that one was a bit overboard, and Russia probably had some ulterior motives in that one. But in contrast with Georgian attacks, Russian bombers stuck to military targets exclusively, and caused very little loss of life.

 

 

As you may know, Russia attacked Georgian capitol. That is NOT defending their own citizens.

Russian planes have not bombed Tbilisi. If that was the case, it would be all over the news. Quick search on the news sites confirms that Tbilisi has not been bombed.

 

I don't know where you get your facts from, but get another source.

 

Please explain how do you justify bombing Georgian capital that is not in South Ossetia.

Very simple. It hasn't been bombed yet.

 

It might be, very soon, but only if Georgian military attempts assault on Russian forces in South Ossetia. So far, Russia promised not to escalate the war if Georgia removes its forces from South Ossetia. Seems extremely fair, don't you?

 

Edit:

TFatseas , please, find better sources for your info. The link you are quoting makes it sound like 1,300 people were killed after Russian forces entered South Ossetia. That is incorrect. That is the death toll from the initial bombing of Tskhinvali by the Georgian forces.

 

Again, please, everybody, find good sources. Use BBC.com, they have reliable and unbiased information. That's what they are known for.

Edited by K^2

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Barciur

 

 

It might be, very soon, but only if Georgian military attempts assault on Russian forces in South Ossetia. So far, Russia promised not to escalate the war if Georgia removes its forces from South Ossetia. Seems extremely fair, don't you?

 

I don't understand one thing - South Ossetia is a territory of Georgia. They have the right to be there. At least more than Russia does. Explain how is that fair.

 

EDIT:

Yes you're right, Tblisi wasn't attacked, on CNN before they said it was uncorfmed yet.. And about BBC - that's my primary source of news. I'm glad to find someone like me. smile.gif

BBC FTW.

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TFatseas

BBC

 

 

South Ossetia clashes intensify

Advertisement

 

Footage reportedly shows Russian tanks entering South Ossetia

 

Fierce fighting between Russian and Georgian troops is continuing in the Georgian separatist region of South Ossetia, reports say.

 

Georgia says it is in control of the regional capital, Tskhinvali, battling Russian forces on the outskirts.

 

Georgia's government has accused Moscow of bombing three Georgian military bases and the Black Sea city of Poti.

 

Meanwhile, the UN Security Council has failed to agree on the wording of a statement calling for a ceasefire.

 

Russia holds a permanent place on the Council, and has the power of veto over any official statements that it regards as unfair or inaccurate.

 

 

Georgia and its breakaway regions

 

In pictures: Unrest in Georgia

Bitterness turns to conflict

No quick fix to conflict

Permanent members Britain, the US and France, are pinpointing what they say is Russia's aggression as the key factor in the slide towards war, while Moscow insists Georgia is to blame.

 

After days of exchanging heavy fire with the Russian-backed separatists, Georgian forces moved on Thursday night to regain control of the region, which has had de facto independence since a war against Georgia that ended in 1992.

 

In response, Moscow sent armoured units across the border. Russia says 15 of its soldiers are dead, and separatists estimate that 1,400 civilians have died.

 

Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili said 30 Georgians had been killed in two days of fighting.

 

'At war'

 

Georgian forces launched the latest in a series of artillery attacks on Tskhinvali early on Saturday, according to a South Ossetian government spokeswoman.

 

Russian forces said they had fought back, and fierce clashes were reported by Russian news agencies overnight.

 

Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili says he is willing to agree an immediate ceasefire

 

Georgia meanwhile said that Russia had launched air strikes on targets inside its territory, in what it described as "a full-scale military invasion".

 

An interior ministry spokesman said one of the attacks took place near the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline, which supplies Caspian oil to the West.

 

The authorities also told the BBC they were expecting a Russian attack on the capital, Tbilisi, and that some government offices in the city had been evacuated as a precaution.

 

Georgian President Saakashvili said Russia was at war with his country.

 

Late on Friday, the Georgian national security council said Mr Saakashvili was poised to declare a state of emergency.

 

'Ethnic cleansing'

 

On Friday, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said he had to act to defend South Ossetia's civilians, most of whom have been given Russian citizenship.

 

 

He also voiced anger over the reported fatalities of Russian servicemen in the breakaway province.

 

"We will not allow their deaths to go unpunished," he said. "Those responsible will receive a deserved punishment."

 

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Moscow had received reports that villages in South Ossetia were being ethnically cleansed.

 

The regional capital, where inhabitants are said to be sheltering in basements without electricity or phone lines, is reported to be devastated.

 

International Red Cross spokeswoman Anna Nelson said it had received reports that hospitals in Tskhinvali were "overflowing" with casualties.

 

 

"We will not allow their deaths to go unpunished," he said. "Those responsible will receive a deserved punishment."

 

Yup, thats peacekeeping.

 

 

On Friday, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said he had to act to defend South Ossetia's civilians, most of whom have been given Russian citizenship.

 

Given citizenship? How the hell to you give citizenship to people in an independent state? Sounds like a handy dandy excuse.

Edited by TFatseas

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K^2

 

I don't understand one thing - South Ossetia is a territory of Georgia. They have the right to be there. At least more than Russia does. Explain how is that fair.

I guess we can leave aside the debate of whether the fact that South Ossetia doesn't think its part of Georgia plays any role. Lets pretend it doesn't, for sake of argument, since that isn't what it is about.

 

If Georgia moved in its forces into Tskhinvali and started arresting separatists, I wouldn't say a word. If fighting broke out between separatists and Georgian troops, I wouldn't say anything either. Let them sort their own sh*t.

 

Instead Georgia started directly from shelling and bombing the city. By NATO's own standards, that's grounds for an external force to invade and stop Georgia. But lets let even that slide.

 

What you need to understand is that Georgia was dealing with a territory populated with citizens of foreign country. On average, 90% of peaceful citizens they were killing in the bombing of Tskhinvali were Russian Citizens. Georgian forces knew that in advance, and they did not care.

 

Constitution of Russian Federation, just like constitution of any civilized country, requires the country to protect its citizens regardless of their place of residence. Georgian military has killed Russian peace keepers and uninvolved citizens knowing full well what they were doing. And you really think this does not constitute grounds for a military response?

 

Yup, thats peacekeeping.

This is not peace keeping anymore. Peace keeping forces were attacked and killed or driven back by Georgians. They are now fighting Russian Military forces that are invading their territory, and Georgians cannot be complaining about it. They knew they were shelling a city with 90% Russian population. They really were expecting no retaliation from Russian Military? What on Earth were they smoking?

Edited by K^2

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Machida

 

It might be, very soon, but only if Georgian military attempts assault on Russian forces in South Ossetia. So far, Russia promised not to escalate the war if Georgia removes its forces from South Ossetia. Seems extremely fair, don't you?

 

I don't understand one thing - South Ossetia is a territory of Georgia. They have the right to be there. At least more than Russia does. Explain how is that fair.

 

 

South Ossetia declaired it's independence from Georgia bout seventeen/eighteen years ago. It views itself as a Republic.

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Barciur
. On average, 90% of peaceful citizens they were killing in the bombing of Tskhinvali were Russian Citizens. G

source?

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K^2
. On average, 90% of peaceful citizens they were killing in the bombing of Tskhinvali were Russian Citizens. G

source?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7550804.stm

 

On Friday, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said he had to act to defend South Ossetia's civilians, most of whom have been given Russian citizenship.

 

Let me see if I can find one with actual figure of 90%.

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TFatseas

 

It might be, very soon, but only if Georgian military attempts assault on Russian forces in South Ossetia. So far, Russia promised not to escalate the war if Georgia removes its forces from South Ossetia. Seems extremely fair, don't you?

 

I don't understand one thing - South Ossetia is a territory of Georgia. They have the right to be there. At least more than Russia does. Explain how is that fair.

 

 

South Ossetia declaired it's independence from Georgia bout seventeen/eighteen years ago. It views itself as a Republic.

And of 2006, they voted to be independent of both Georgia AND Russia.

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K^2

 

South Ossetia declaired it's independence from Georgia bout seventeen/eighteen years ago. It views itself as a Republic.

And of 2006, they voted to be independent of both Georgia AND Russia.

Which, if anything, would give both Russian and Georgian military an equally poor reason to be there.

 

I'm really hoping that Russian military will withdraw from the region once the conflict is resolved, and give South Ossetia a chance to make up their own mind about what they want to do.

 

Also, after Georgia attacking South Ossetia like this, I hope that other states will finally agree to recognize S.O. as a state independent from Georgia, just like they did for certain states in Yugoslavia some years ago.

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TFatseas

 

South Ossetia declaired it's independence from Georgia bout seventeen/eighteen years ago. It views itself as a Republic.

And of 2006, they voted to be independent of both Georgia AND Russia.

Which, if anything, would give both Russian and Georgian military an equally poor reason to be there.

 

I'm really hoping that Russian military will withdraw from the region once the conflict is resolved, and give South Ossetia a chance to make up their own mind about what they want to do.

 

Also, after Georgia attacking South Ossetia like this, I hope that other states will finally agree to recognize S.O. as a state independent from Georgia, just like they did for certain states in Yugoslavia some years ago.

Not one country recognizes South Ossetia, not even Russia. I doubt this will change either, if it goes back to where it was pre-war.

 

Other than that, it's either Georgia is going to get their land back, or South Ossetia will become a part of Mother Russia.

 

I do want to ask this again.

 

On Friday, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said he had to act to defend South Ossetia's civilians, most of whom have been given Russian citizenship.

Given citizenship? How the hell to you give citizenship to people in an independent state? Sounds like a handy dandy excuse.

Actually, since not one country recognizes them, they still are Georgia.

Edited by TFatseas

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Barciur

Well their voting is worth about as much as if citizens of the state of Vermont would want to vote on their independence....

It is part of Georgia. Let's just face it.

 

Russia says it is sending extra troops to the Georgian separatist region of South Ossetia after another night of fierce fighting with Georgian forces.

 

President Dmitry Medvedev said his country had begun an operation "to force the Georgian side to peace".

 

"Forced peace" by Russia? Doesn't sound optimistic. There is no such a thing as forced peace.

 

edit:

again can someone change name of the topic? if georgia attacked anything, it'd be South Ossetia, not Russia.

Edited by Barciur

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K^2

 

Given citizenship? How the hell to you give citizenship to people in an independent state? Sounds like a handy dandy excuse.

Well, yes. Russia granted requests for citizenship to South Ossetians because they wanted some degree of claim over the territory. However, there is nothing reprehensible about it. Any sovereign state has a right to grant citizenship to whomever they chose to. Russia allows dual citizenship, and does not require its citizens to be physically located in Russia. It is a right of Russian Federation as a sovereign state.

 

Georgia permitted this to happen. Whether by actual inaction or by lack of power is irrelevant. Fact remains, many people of South Ossetia applied for, and received Russian citizenship. This was well known to Georgian forces, and it was a status quo well before their invasion into South Ossetia.

 

I suppose, if Georgia does not allow dual citizenships, they'd have full rights to ask every single resident of South Ossetia who has a Russian citizenship to get up and get out, or to refuse citizenship of Russia. If they did not, Georgia would have a right to deport these people as illegal immigrants. That's a civilized way of doing it.

 

Now imagine what would happen if United States suddenly bombed a village full of Mexican immigrants. Can you spell "scandal"?

 

 

 

"Forced peace" by Russia? Doesn't sound optimistic. There is no such a thing as forced peace.

Indeed. Not without years of war prior to it, anyways. ("I'd call Japanese Surrendering in WWII a "forced peace", but lets hope nukes don't get involved this time)

 

again can someone change name of the topic? if georgia attacked anything, it'd be South Ossetia, not Russia.

Seconded.

Edited by K^2

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Barciur

 

Now imagine what would happen if United States suddenly bombed a village full of Mexican immigrants. Can you spell "scandal"

loooool

Not if they were trying to break away from the US, they would be called Mexican separatists or terrorists... sorry but that's a huge different story.

You're making a lot of valid points. But this one isn't very valid..

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K^2

Now imagine what would happen if United States suddenly bombed a village full of Mexican immigrants. Can you spell "scandal"

loooool

Not if they were trying to break away from the US, they would be called Mexican separatists or terrorists... sorry but that's a huge different story

Not saying its anything like this. Just trying to get people to see the story from a slightly different perspective.

 

I realize that this is a complicated situation, and I'm sounding rather pro-Russian right now. I'm trying really hard to be objective and unbiased, though. It's a little difficult for me, since I was born in Russia, and have a lot of friends from both Russia and Georgia, and it isn't made any easier by all the propaganda, from both sides, in the media.

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Barciur

See your posts made me think that there is something we don't know about.. Since you mentioned Yugoslavia bombing by NATO, why didn't NATO get into here... instead they are calling to cease fire... well if it's the same thing shouldn't they come in? Sounds a bit suspicious.

 

And I'm sounding a bit anti-Russian.. but there is reasons to that. wink.gif Look at the flag in my profile - that explains a lot.

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TFatseas

The UN sees South Ossetia as part of Georgia.

 

And Russia(Full time Security Council member) looks to be in a furious land grab.

 

So which is it?

 

 

 

 

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K^2

UN saw Kosovo as part of Yugoslavia, but they didn't call NATO's attack as a land grab. Why is that?

 

 

And I'm sounding a bit anti-Russian.. but there is reasons to that. wink.gif Look at the flag in my profile - that explains a lot.

Common, that was 60 years ago. And you cannot compare Stalin and Putin. But I do see your point. If it makes you feel any better, I was completely apposed to the whole idea the first time I heard of it. (And it's not like Poland never invaded Russia...)

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TFatseas

 

UN saw Kosovo as part of Yugoslavia, but they didn't call NATO's attack as a land grab. Why is that?

 

Yeah, but at the time I do not believe it was unanimous.

 

 

Here my problem with the Russian attack.

 

For the last couple months, Russian 'exercises' were occurring all along the Georgian Border. With 'peacekeepers' all along the Georgian/Ossetian border. Last night, actually two nights, ago separatists forces bombarded Georgia, killing Georgian civilians. The Georgians then respond with a show of force.(Which, I believe it is their right to do so.) Then Russia immediately(Hours) crossed into South Ossetia.

 

If this was on the fly, the Russian response would of been quite sluggish and slow,(Or even chaotic) as commanders came up with a plan on the ground to respond. Also the Russian Ground Forces admittedly poor communications ability, and we can look back to past experiences in Chechnya.

 

The mere fact of the perfect coordination of the ground and air units, let alone the speed of the advance, shows that this has been planned for months. Remember the UAV shot down by the MIG? This has been brewing for a while. It looks to be nothing more than a excuse.

 

The worlds eyes are currently fixated on China, and the opening ceremonies of the Olympic Games, thus giving Russia a good window of opportunity to annex the region. It bears striking resemblance to cold war history. In 1956 whilst the worlds eye was on Suez, the Red Army launched a brutal attack to reinstate total control in Hungary, followed by the mass murder and public execution of the men leading the uprising.

 

There is also a vast "energy corridor" in Georgia, which completely by-passes Russia. Its quite obvious Russia has always despised this. Don't forget when they blackmailed the Ukraine, where they have previously cut off all gas and electricity supplies to keep them on side and weary of becoming more pro West. Its also no secret that Georgia was applying for NATO membership.

 

It serves Russia's personal ambitions to take control of Georgia. Not only would they gain access to substantial natural resources to boost its economy, but it would also eradicate a very Pro-Western regime in the middle of its sphere of influence. And this also goes with their so-called restoration policy.

Edited by TFatseas

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K^2

Russia was getting ready to move in forces, and they were waiting for Georgia to do something stupid like that.

 

That doesn't change the fact that the way Georgia handled the situation (id est bombed a city full of foreign citizens) makes the invasion a reasonable response from Russia.

 

When Israel responded to attacks of Hezbolah, they did bomb certain targets. But these were targets carefully hand picked by the intelligence as ones harboring terrorist cells.

 

Georgia did not bomb targets in the city. They were carpet bombing the city. Georgia used Grad systems. If you look up how one of these works, you'll see that it is absolutely impossible to target. It's one of these "Let God sort them" weapons that kills off absolutely everything within certain radius.

 

Yeah, Russia set them up. They are pretty crafty at these things. But it still doesn't change the fact that Georgia screwed up, handled the situation in the way opposite of how a free country should handle it, and practically invited Russia in. I'm not trying to make Russia look totally innocent, just pointing out that Georgia did bring it on itself, and it asking for help is absolutely ridiculous. It should receive none, unless Russia attempts to invade the rest of Georgia without being provoked to do so. And if Georgia now attempts to attack Russian troops in South Ossetia, they deserve every bit of retaliation they get.

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TFatseas

 

Russia was getting ready to move in forces, and they were waiting for Georgia to do something stupid like that.

 

You admit they set them up. And it's is rather obvious that they did.

 

Russian backed rebels shelled Georgian positions, and the Georgians responded in kind.

 

 

That doesn't change the fact that the way Georgia handled the situation (id est bombed a city full of foreign citizens) makes the invasion a reasonable response from Russia.

 

 

Foreign nationals, I don't understand why people don't like the idea of Georgia taking the land that is theirs.

 

I'm sorry if you don't like the casualties. But it was within Georgia's right to do so.

 

This has been going on for years as well, its just Georgia has never used this much force in the past.

 

 

Georgia did not bomb targets in the city. They were carpet bombing the city. Georgia used Grad systems. If you look up how one of these works, you'll see that it is absolutely impossible to target. It's one of these "Let God sort them" weapons that kills off absolutely everything within certain radius.

 

 

I know about the Grad, Georgia used the BM-21 in the attack. I've spent most of my life studying Military technology.

 

Again, it was an Georgian response, if you don't like the game, don't play it. The Rebels should of known what was going to happen. But I'm thinking they did.

 

 

Yeah, Russia set them up. They are pretty crafty at these things. But it still doesn't change the fact that Georgia screwed up, handled the situation in the way opposite of how a free country should handle it, and practically invited Russia in. I'm not trying to make Russia look totally innocent, just pointing out that Georgia did bring it on itself, and it asking for help is absolutely ridiculous. It should receive none, unless Russia attempts to invade the rest of Georgia without being provoked to do so. And if Georgia now attempts to attack Russian troops in South Ossetia, they deserve every bit of retaliation they get.

 

Georgia handled it the way they see fit.(Personally I think it was warranted) The question on how they should of handled it is based on morals. On whats accepted or not. If Georgia wasn't so important, you wouldn't see such a Russian reaction, civilians or not.

 

The Russian response is based on them wanting to go back to the glory days. They miss being at the center of the world stage.

 

I believe if the Russians are attacked by Georgians in South Ossetia, they got whats coming to them. They set them up, and they are on Georgian land.

 

I don't think the Russians know what they are getting into. The Georgians have every advantages except numbers, and the Russians can't use that in the Georgian terrain.

 

I predict a long drawn out campaign, with both sides being bloodied.

 

And Georgia is getting help. Trained by the US military, They are in the process of trading their old AK's for Bushmaster M4's. And they just bought a load of AT weapons from us. And Russia is going to be in trouble if anything happens to those 2,000 US civilians in Georgia.

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Sir Million Knives

in b4 ww3

 

 

 

August 08, 2008: War in South Ossetia: Georgia launches an attack into the break away region of South Ossetia, this has lead to the Russian invasion of Georgia that could involve NATO forces in a conflict with Russian. If it does not come to that this conflict will be the closest to a world war happening in the 21st century so far.

 

SOURCE: ALMIGHTY WIKIPEDIA.

 

Deny it all you want, this could very well be World War III.

Edited by Sir Million Knives

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K^2

TFatseas, I think you are a bit biased. You say Georgia had a right to attack a peaceful city with carpet-bombing techniques, yet you have a problem with Russia invading them in return?

 

Yes, some separatists attacked Georgian positions. But if killing these few separatists warrants killing hundreds of civilians, then I don't see how you can have any problem at all with Russia responding with an invasion to having a few hundreds of its citizens killed by Georgia. Heck, by your standards, it'd be ok for Russia to level Georgia for that.

 

 

In other news, Russian planes bombed military objects in Gori, which isn't in the South Ossetia. I'm not sure what's up with that. Still watching the developments.

 

Edit: Oh, apparently Georgia was moving troops to support military action in South Ossetia through Gori. In this case, strike against military targets in Gori makes sense. Still not going to get Russia any good PR on that one.

Edited by K^2

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Mrdeanop2

Its begun.

 

Just like I dreamed.

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Der_Don
in b4 ww3

 

 

 

August 08, 2008: War in South Ossetia: Georgia launches an attack into the break away region of South Ossetia, this has lead to the Russian invasion of Georgia that could involve NATO forces in a conflict with Russian. If it does not come to that this conflict will be the closest to a world war happening in the 21st century so far.

 

SOURCE: ALMIGHTY WIKIPEDIA.

 

Deny it all you want, this could very well be World War III.

I just finished Bundeswehr basic training, im prepared wink.gif

See you in Georgia tounge.gif

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Sir Million Knives

the fun part is that im a trained and combat-experienced peacekeeper and a officer in the army.

 

so i'm pretty much dead if this blows over.

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