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Stefan.

Alexandr Solzhenitsyn

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TFatseas

Disregard earlier.

 

All I'm gonna post is this.

 

Link

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Effy in Chains
Disregard earlier.

 

All I'm gonna post is this.

 

Link

Capitalist propaganda. icon13.gif

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TFatseas
Disregard earlier.

 

All I'm gonna post is this.

 

Link

Capitalist propaganda. icon13.gif

Did you actually read it?

 

Yes or no.

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Effy in Chains
Disregard earlier.

 

All I'm gonna post is this.

 

Link

Capitalist propaganda. icon13.gif

Did you actually read it?

 

Yes or no.

Yes and it was all lies, but entertaining lies i'll give you that.

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TFatseas

 

Yes and it was all lies, but entertaining lies i'll give you that.

Right.

 

If they are lies, I'd like to see you try to dispute some of them.

 

Since you obviously know enough to tell that they're lies.

Edited by TFatseas

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Lioshenka
If they are lies, I'd like to see you try to dispute some of them.

 

One of communism's main ideals is complete control over industries.

Well, it worked well in USSR for 70 years until that twat with a strawberry on his head came along and started perestroika. Before that it was working OK. Nothing was perfect, have to admit, but it was working and people had no problem with it.

 

 

As income approaches complete equality, productivity disappears.  For example: people work so they can make money to support themselves

Again, in USSR people knew that if they produce more they will get free houses, free cars, healthcare, education, holidays and eventually - free everything, which, alas, did not happen.

 

 

The arrival of the middle class practically ruins any chance for this revolution as well as any need for it.

After 1917 middle class succesfully divided either in worker class or the opposed rich cats class who started the civil war.

 

 

Free will cannot be suppressed:

As long as you don't talk about starting a revolution and bombings you were ok in USSR. Same applies to any other country - as long as you stay within the allowed margins noone is stopping you. This resulted in thoussands of people leaving SU and starting that crap about how horrible the life in SU is.

 

 

100 MILLION deaths by direct murder worldwide can be traced to communism

Wrong. Even a kid knows it is 10 mlrd people. Don't BS me.

 

 

 

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TFatseas

 

Well, it worked well in USSR for 70 years until that twat with a strawberry on his head came along and started perestroika. Before that it was working OK. Nothing was perfect, have to admit, but it was working and people had no problem with it.

 

Before WWII the only large amounts of industry was agriculture, and most of that was people sustaining themselves, not the state. At least not until Stalin's collectivization and forced famine of the Ukraine in 1932-33. Some heavy industry existed, but not all that much, and basically none outside a few select cities.

 

After the Soviet Union industrialized, mostly during and after WWII, it could not sustain itself, so in turn it required the Warsaw Pact nations economys to sustain the economy of the USSR. The USSR in turn subjugated their economy's just so it'd sustain itself.

 

Proven to be an imperfect system because 1) it required outside sources to sustain itself. And 2)after the Eastern Bloc collapsed due to popular unrest then the USSR fell apart under its own weight.

 

 

Again, in USSR people knew that if they produce more they will get free houses, free cars, healthcare, education, holidays and eventually - free everything, which, alas, did not happen.

 

Right, it was an imperfect system. Income never reached an equality state. Not to mention the Soviets threw most of their economy into their military machine, and not into domestic products, so a lot of people never saw some(or in some cases any) of that stuff. Also they couldn't keep up with the spending of the west in either of those two categories. See the Strategic Defense Initiative, the Soviets could never of kept up with that amount of spending.

 

There still was a class system in the USSR. Whitch goes against everything communism/socialism is.

 

 

After 1917 middle class succesfully divided either in worker class or the opposed rich cats class who started the civil war.

 

Yep and it never changed, imperfect system. People weren't equal. Russia still suffered from class rule, from a certain "Dictatorship of the Proletariat."

 

If a certain group can control you by being in power, its not equality.

 

 

As long as you don't talk about starting a revolution and bombings you were ok in USSR. Same applies to any other country - as long as you stay within the allowed margins noone is stopping you. This resulted in thoussands of people leaving SU and starting that crap about how horrible the life in SU is.

 

Don't you see the direct correlation between that? Thats oppression. People don't like being oppressed. In a more western society, you can speak out against the government. In a communist/socialist society you are sent to prison or killed with possibility your whole family going along with the ride.

 

Nevermind those lines you talk about are so narrow you don't have nearly any personal freedoms. All you do is work for the state.

 

All I see there is an oppressive/non-free society, that you seem to enjoy the idea of.

 

 

Wrong. Even a kid knows it is 10 mlrd people. Don't BS me.

 

Ok, throw me a source.

 

Here I'll give another one towards mine.

Link

And another

Link

7 million in one year

And they have references.

 

And don't forget, Boris Yeltsin threw open the Communist Party's records, including the enormous collection of documents held by the Communist International, then a couple years later, the Russian SVR, the cash-strapped successor to the KGB, allowed brief and limited access to some of its old files to a handful of Western historians in return for a substantial amount. And finally in 1995, the U.S. government released thousands of KGB cables intercepted and decoded in the 1940s in a top-secret operation known as Venona.

 

There is plenty there.

 

ETA:And isn't it kinda scary that you find 10 million to be an ok number?

Edited by TFatseas

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DemonKing
He was a f*cking heretic and traitor! I'm glad to see that son of a bitch dead! He now burns in hell, while Stalin relaxes in heaven surrounded by hot Russian girls! Die Capitalist pig-dogs!

 

Hail Stalin! For the Motherland!

Are you even Russian at all?

 

Because I see you have a UK flag, and the most likely thing is that your some 15 year old kid, who wants to be "different", so he goes round pretending to be a communist and that he's from russian.

 

On the other hand you could be a commie, in that case, meh to you, If your a commie go and give all your sh*t to your neighbor so you can live equally, someone who stood up to opression of soviet russia, who speaks out fully knowing the consequences has more backbone that you'll ever had. Goddamn pig.

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Effy in Chains
He was a f*cking heretic and traitor! I'm glad to see that son of a bitch dead! He now burns in hell, while Stalin relaxes in heaven surrounded by hot Russian girls! Die Capitalist pig-dogs!

 

Hail Stalin! For the Motherland!

Are you even Russian at all?

 

Because I see you have a UK flag, and the most likely thing is that your some 15 year old kid, who wants to be "different", so he goes round pretending to be a communist and that he's from russian.

 

On the other hand you could be a commie, in that case, meh to you, If your a commie go and give all your sh*t to your neighbor so you can live equally, someone who stood up to opression of soviet russia, who speaks out fully knowing the consequences has more backbone that you'll ever had. Goddamn pig.

Not this sh*t again. I'm not pretending to be Russian. I am a Communist. Also I'm 16 and I will be 17 on December 13th, I'm no kid.

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Stefan.

Even though communism was not as bad as portrayed by many, would you prefer living in a capitalist state? Are your lives good now? If so, why are you complaining.

 

Socialism is better than communism anyway.

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Land Of Confusion

 

He was a f*cking heretic and traitor! I'm glad to see that son of a bitch dead! He now burns in hell, while Stalin relaxes in heaven surrounded by hot Russian girls! Die Capitalist pig-dogs!

 

Hail Stalin! For the Motherland!

 

Assuming you aren't joking, that statment is insane. It'd take me hours to address how many ways you are wrong. So, I'll just address the whole, Hail Stalin bit. This is also assuming you have a system of morals that includesa statment like this "Murder, genocide, theft, rape, and general crimes against humanity are all bad."

 

Hail Stalin? You would hail a man, who caused "The Suka Wars" Betrayed the masses, killed the majority who were loyal to him, and ordered genocide pillaging and executions, not to mention crushed freedom of speech. If so, you are sick.

 

Oh and, this man was not a traitor, he never swore loyalty to Stalin, therfore, he never betrayed him, if anything, Stalin was the traitor, seeing as he executed the some of his greatest generals.

 

This man had some great characeristics, that you seem to lack, you're either wrong, or just stupid, take your pick.

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DemonKing
He was a f*cking heretic and traitor! I'm glad to see that son of a bitch dead! He now burns in hell, while Stalin relaxes in heaven surrounded by hot Russian girls! Die Capitalist pig-dogs!

 

Hail Stalin! For the Motherland!

Are you even Russian at all?

 

Because I see you have a UK flag, and the most likely thing is that your some 15 year old kid, who wants to be "different", so he goes round pretending to be a communist and that he's from russian.

 

On the other hand you could be a commie, in that case, meh to you, If your a commie go and give all your sh*t to your neighbor so you can live equally, someone who stood up to opression of soviet russia, who speaks out fully knowing the consequences has more backbone that you'll ever had. Goddamn pig.

Not this sh*t again. I'm not pretending to be Russian. I am a Communist. Also I'm 16 and I will be 17 on December 13th, I'm no kid.

Damn, your so cool, can I be just like you?

 

 

Really? Why don't you move to a communist country? I mean, why stay here, trying to tell others to bend to your horrible economy when you can go overseas and stay elsewhere.

 

 

Yeah sure communism is great, you know it only caused a mass genocide in vietnam.

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Stefan.

Since when is being a communist Russian, Kalasinn? If I'm not mistaken, it's a democratic country.

 

And if this all turns out to be a joke, it's not a very funny one, because in the end you know that communism will just never work.

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TubbyJ
Free will cannot be suppressed:

As long as you don't talk about starting a revolution and bombings you were ok in USSR. Same applies to any other country - as long as you stay within the allowed margins noone is stopping you. This resulted in thoussands of people leaving SU and starting that crap about how horrible the life in SU is.

Isn't that subjective to one's own opinion? What one man sees as a few gripes another can hear a possible plan of a full-scale insurrection. Stalin would want to keep himself covered, he wouldn't want to risk somebody speaking out, even if it's just one person.

 

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Effy in Chains
Since when is being a communist Russian, Kalasinn? If I'm not mistaken, it's a democratic country.

 

And if this all turns out to be a joke, it's not a very funny one, because in the end you know that communism will just never work.

You misunderstood me. I never said that being a Communist is Russian. I said I'm not pretending to be Russian and then I said i am a Communist. They were separate statements.

 

Oh and yes it would be extremely difficult to get Communism to work, but not impossible. One day the people will see that it is the best thing for them. The way forward.

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mark-2007
Since when is being a communist Russian, Kalasinn? If I'm not mistaken, it's a democratic country.

Pssst... that's what they want you to believe!

 

I seem to have dropped Kalasinn in it a bit, his original statement was just a joke that was taken too seriously. Also, talking about jokes - I hear Stalin was quite fond of them himself, he used to stop people in corridors and say things like: "I thought I ordered your shooting months ago!". As long as he wasn't the punchline of course, since 200,000 out of the 2.5 million Gulag population were sent there for telling anti-Soviet jokes. It was called anekdoty, I believe.

 

(Got an article on them by my side now tounge2.gif)

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Lioshenka

 

Before WWII the only large amounts of industry was agriculture, and most of that was people sustaining themselves, not the state. At least not until Stalin's collectivization and forced famine of the Ukraine in 1932-33. Some heavy industry existed, but not all that much, and basically none outside a few select cities.

First of all don't try to go away from the actual point. Were there factories or heavy industries or weren't it still doesn't change the fact that people did not have any problems with it. And thinking logically it would take some time to turn a agricultural coutry into industrial in 20 years. And the forced femine in Ukraine SSR is BS made up by Yuscshenko and his comrades.

 

 

After the Soviet Union industrialized, mostly during and after WWII, it could not sustain itself, so in turn it required the Warsaw Pact nations economys to sustain the economy of the USSR. The USSR in turn subjugated their economy's just so it'd sustain itself.

Are you saying now that EU can not sustain itself that is why it is trying to get more countries to join??? This is not about the economy, this is about the area which is controlled by one single the government in that case USSR's one.

 

 

2)after the Eastern Bloc collapsed due to popular unrest then the USSR fell apart under its own weight.

It collapsed because Gorbachyov's main aim in life as he said later was to destroy USSR. And it had nothing to do with economy.

 

 

Income never reached an equality state.

According to one of Stalin's orders "the director of a plant could not get more than three times more wages than a cleaner of the same plant". And it was so until the eighties. I even think that the General Secretary got no-so high salary, it probably was all due to his job where he got free cars and flats. There was another principle used in USSR, which maybe doesn't reflect your opinion of equality but it sounded like "From everyone according to their capabilities, to everyone according to the labour". The more you do the more you get.

 

 

Not to mention the Soviets threw most of their economy into their military machine, and not into domestic products, so a lot of people never saw some(or in some cases any) of that stuff.

 

It is not states problem. People who wanted to get a German car worked harder and got what they wanted. My family was 700th odd in the city to get a colour TV back in early 60-ies and they were just an oil plant workers.

 

 

Also they couldn't keep up with the spending of the west in either of those two categories. See the Strategic Defense Initiative, the Soviets could never of kept up with that  amount of spending.

Yet they managed to keep NATO off Europe for 50 odd years.

 

 

There still was a class system in the USSR. Whitch goes against everything communism/socialism is.

Yes, we had so-called intelligence. Noone liked them, and noone does now for they are complete nutcases. Of course, there were some exceptions, but the majority falls into that description.

 

 

Yep and it never changed, imperfect system. People weren't equal. Russia still suffered from class rule, from a certain "Dictatorship of the Proletariat."

 

If a certain group can control you by being in power, its not equality.

Do you think of socialism when there are as many members of parliament as there are population??? Nonsence. People of every factory chose their representative who went to Moscow and took part in whatever was on.

 

 

Don't you see the direct correlation between that? Thats oppression. People don't like being oppressed. In a more western society, you can speak out against the government. In a communist/socialist society you are sent to prison or killed with possibility your whole family going along with the ride.

Do I need to repeat myself? As long as you dont threat to overthrow the government you are OK in any country existed.

 

 

Ok, throw me a source.

Solzhenitsyn, Fomenko, Rezun, Radzinskiy, Kasparov, Novodvorskaya and some other new-russian historians add a new million to the victims of Stalin every day.

 

 

ETA:And isn't it kinda scary that you find 10 million to be an ok number?

For the sake of 200 mln it is.

 

 

Even though communism was not as bad as portrayed by many, would you prefer living in a capitalist state? Are your lives good now? If so, why are you complaining.

 

Socialism is better than communism anyway.

The thing is that socialism will never work in USA or most of the Europe, while Capitalism wil lnever work in Russia, other European countries and East. That is just the way it is, and we can see it by learning the history.

 

 

Really? Why don't you move to a communist country? I mean, why stay here, trying to tell others to bend to your horrible economy when you can go overseas and stay elsewhere.

Because as you lot like to say people have a freedom of speech in the West haha.

 

Pheew... Next!

Edited by ˸øåíüêà

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Wanted Assailant

For f*ck's sake give Kalasinn a damn break. Many people are raised different ways, so shut the f*ck up.

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TFatseas

 

More Commie bullsh*t.

Why I bother with these f*cking hypocrites is beyond me.

 

Tell me, Mr. Proud PC Player, that computer your on, is it essential to life? No its not. It's a luxury. Why do you deserve it more than than people who don't have one, but want one? You don't, but because of the capitalist/free market, you have one anyways.

 

Everything you own that is not essential to life is a luxury, why do you own them when so many people don't even own the essentials? You are not practicing equality, but are you doing anything about it? No. Otherwise you wouldn't be on the internet talking to me would you?

 

Face it, your a hypocrite. You have taken advantage of the capitalist/free market system to get where you are today. Your on the internet right? If you pay taxes, your a hypocrite, hell the simple fact of where you live today makes you a hypocrite. And by your profile, your 21. So don't tell me you can't move/make your own decisions.

 

You don't practice what you preach. And in a society like yours, you have the ability to.

 

You, yourself is a prime example why communism, in any form, has always failed, and will always continue to fail.

 

I'm not going to argue with someone who obviously doesn't believe in his own system enough to live by it.

Edited by TFatseas

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Effy in Chains

 

Everything you own that is not essential to life is a luxury, why do you own them when so many people don't even own the essentials? You are not practicing equality, but are you doing anything about it? No. Otherwise you wouldn't be on the internet talking to me would you?

Face it you poor excuse for a supposedly intelligent lifeform , my comrade just posted an excellent counter-attack to your nonsense. Then you, a complete idiot who has barely any knowledge of Communism at all , stumbles blindly along with your pathetic and frankly ignorant lies.

 

If Communism was done correctly we could work to earn a computer, so you have utterly no baring for your childish little "Communism is no luxuries" argument. And how do you, a washed up putrid smelling rodent like yourself suppose we practice equality? Do I fly to Africa and share my computer with a poor starving family - no i don't and i'll tell you why, because: I can't afford that and it simply wouldn't be efficient. I can't practice equality no - hell there are people with more than 10 times my family's income and that's just a short drive from my house. Tony Blair for example, and what do you suppose I do uh? Go over there and share out his house to orphans - no becuase i'd be shot on site.

 

Don't blunder in here with your "you should practice equality if you are a Communist bullsh*t" because what difference would it make? Sharing a computer? Sharing my family's money and getting kicked out of our house becuase of lack of funds to pay all these private companies and of course the wonderful council. Oh please. As a Communist the best thing someone as insignificant as me in this "fat cat controlled society you hold so dear" can do is promote Communism. One day we will succeed. Now be gone foolish one, your gun was just firing blanks, you have lost and have no longer have the right to continue your failed argument.

 

Good day.

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mark-2007

 

your pathetic and frankly ignorant lies.

 

You can't dismiss someone's article by just saying they're lying. It's too easy to dismiss someone's argument like this. You need to prove they're lying. Neither you, nor Lioshenka (sp?) have supplied any evidence to back your points whereas TFatseas has done so.

 

Also, it seems the general consensus amongst Communists that "it'll work if it's done correctly". I could fly if I had wings.

 

Oh, and I read in the paper that Tony Blair is on holiday, so now's your chance!

Edited by mark-2007

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TFatseas

 

And how do you, a washed up putrid smelling rodent like yourself suppose we practice equality?

 

Quite simple actually, run off into the wilderness with a few like minded people, cut yourself off from society and start a commune where everyone lives like equals.

 

And hey, if you get caught. You can at least say you tried to live as communists, something witch you guys are not doing now.

 

 

I can't afford that and it simply wouldn't be efficient. I can't practice equality no - hell there are people with more than 10 times my family's income and that's just a short drive from my house.

 

See above.

 

 

If Communism was done correctly we could work to earn a computer, so you have utterly no baring for your childish little "Communism is no luxuries" argument.

 

Answered you own question. It never has and never will.

 

All countries that tried it started with that goal, and failed.

 

Nevermind that communism conflicts with the inescapable laws of reality.

 

 

As a Communist the best thing someone as insignificant as me in this "fat cat controlled society you hold so dear" can do is promote Communism.

 

So you promote it, but still not practice it.

 

Hypocrite.

 

 

One day we will succeed.

 

History has proven you wrong time and again.

 

I'm done with you guys. You can hold on to that stupid dream as long as you like, your only lying to yourself.

Edited by TFatseas

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mark-2007

 

Don't you see the direct correlation between that? Thats oppression. People don't like being oppressed. In a more western society, you can speak out against the government. In a communist/socialist society you are sent to prison or killed with possibility your whole family going along with the ride.

Do I need to repeat myself? As long as you dont threat to overthrow the government you are OK in any country existed.

I just realised, I've already proved this wrong. Minor things such as telling jokes which were considered anti-Stalin were enough to get you sent to Gulags.

 

After his death in 1953, around 200,000 joke-tellers from a total Gulag population of 2.5 million were released (as part of De-Stalinsation, I think). Not that this meant it stopped under Khrushchev, in the space of three years 3,500 more were arrested.

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Lioshenka

 

More demmie crap

You still try to avoid disproving my point. You try to accuse me of buying stuff, which has nothing to do with communism failures, which, you believe, exist.

 

tounge.gif

 

 

I'm not going to argue with someone who obviously doesn't believe in his own system enough to live by it.

 

confused.gif you have just proved otherwise, no? And if you read CAREFULLY I said that communist system will not work in the UK. What we have here works perfectly, mainly because its been here for ages and whoever tries to change it always produces quite crap outsomes.

 

And imagine me, running around crying about overthrowing Her Majesty and the Prime Minister. I doubt freedom of speech and action laws will save me from jail.

 

 

I just realised, I've already proved this wrong. Minor things such as telling jokes which were considered anti-Stalin were enough to get you sent to Gulags..

 

Well, if you know that telling jokes will send you to a camp why would you tell one? You dont run around with a rocket launcher, because you'll get 10 years sentence. If you are, then I suppose you fuully understand the outcome of that.

 

 

After his death in 1953, around 200,000 joke-tellers from a total Gulag population of 2.5 million were released (as part of De-Stalinsation, I think). Not that this meant it stopped under Khrushchev, in the space of three years 3,500 more were arrested

I may be wrong but it was Hrushchyov who actually started to release the prisoners. And the special comission only accepted 630 000 people as sentenced unfair since then.

Edited by ˸øåíüêà

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TubbyJ
I just realised, I've already proved this wrong. Minor things such as telling jokes which were considered anti-Stalin were enough to get you sent to Gulags..

 

Well, if you know that telling jokes will send you to a camp why would you tell one? You dont run around with a rocket launcher, because you'll get 10 years sentence. If you are, then I suppose you fully understand the outcome of that.

That's a ridiculous reason to be sent to prison, don't you think? confused.gif

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mark-2007

 

I just realised, I've already proved this wrong. Minor things such as telling jokes which were considered anti-Stalin were enough to get you sent to Gulags..

 

Well, if you know that telling jokes will send you to a camp why would you tell one? You dont run around with a rocket launcher, because you'll get 10 years sentence. If you are, then I suppose you fuully understand the outcome of that.

 

 

After his death in 1953, around 200,000 joke-tellers from a total Gulag population of 2.5 million were released (as part of De-Stalinsation, I think). Not that this meant it stopped under Khrushchev, in the space of three years 3,500 more were arrested

I may be wrong but it was Hrushchyov who actually started to release the prisoners. And the special comission only accepted 630 000 people as sentenced unfair since then.

But that's besides the point - a joke shouldn't be an imprisonable offence. Otherwise, half the world's population would be locked up for taking the piss out of George Bush. And your rocket launcher comparison is a silly one, since joke's can't kill anyone. Unless they die of laughter or something.

 

EDIT: God Damnit! Fatal Hilarity still, not exactly common.

 

Also, I dunno who Hrushchyov is sad.gif But, assuming (and hoping tounge.gif) that you mis-spelled Khrushchev, then I said it was him.

Edited by mark-2007

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Lioshenka

 

That's a ridiculous reason to be sent to prison, don't you think? confused.gif

Stalin did not stop people from leaving the coutry. if you don't like the rules... You know, they have that guy Kasparov in Russia who tries to overthrow the government and is supported by like 0.00000% of people. Every bloody month he come into the streets shouting about freedom before being beaten up and locked up in a jail for a day.

 

And really, people weren't sent to prison for the jokes. They were sent ther for being rich, or being in the opposition armed movement, that kind of stuff.

 

 

Also, I dunno who Hrushchyov is  But, assuming (and hoping ) that you mis-spelled Khrushchev, then I said it was him.

Thats how the guy's name is transliterated according to a standard Internal Affairs of Russian Ministry. I can never remember, how Russian names are spelled in English, because all of them follow different rules, it seems smile.gif

 

PS Ha, I know how they killed people in Gulags - they read the jokes about Stalin until the prisoners died from laughter biggrin.gif

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mark-2007

 

That's a ridiculous reason to be sent to prison, don't you think? confused.gif

Stalin did not stop people from leaving the coutry. if you don't like the rules... You know, they have that guy Kasparov in Russia who tries to overthrow the government and is supported by like 0.00000% of people. Every bloody month he come into the streets shouting about freedom before being beaten up and locked up in a jail for a day.

 

And really, people weren't sent to prison for the jokes. They were sent ther for being rich, or being in the opposition armed movement, that kind of stuff.

 

But some people might live there before communism came along, others might like where they live. You may say "Well then they should learn to put up with it." or something, but it's just ridiculous to expect that of people, it's a violation of their rights, I woulda thunked. Also, I think the people who would be telling the jokes would be bitter about the government, hence they'd be poor. What would the rich be complaining about? And what are rich people doing in a "classless society" (given that their must be rich people to contrast with the poor, as that is implied with what you said)?

 

 

Also, I dunno who Hrushchyov is  But, assuming (and hoping ) that you mis-spelled Khrushchev, then I said it was him.

Thats how the guy's name is transliterated according to a standard Internal Affairs of Russian Ministry. I can never remember, how Russian names are spelled in English, because all of them follow different rules, it seems smile.gif

 

PS Ha, I know how they killed people in Gulags - they read the jokes about Stalin until the prisoners died from laughter biggrin.gif

 

I dunno...

 

 

Stalin summons the famous writer Sholokhov.

 

"I've read your novel "The reclaimed land". It's very good, I like it. I thought, why won't you write an article, say 'If the enemy doesn't surrender, he's to be finished off?"

 

"I am afraid I may not be able to tackle it, comrade Stalin. Lately my health is not that well."

 

"We'll help you. We'll send you to Georgia for a while, you'll have there some wine, and grapes."

 

"Yes, comrade Stalin. Then please let me bid farewell to my family."

 

"Why?"

 

"In case the article is not successful."

 

That would be quite a slow death...

Edited by mark-2007

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TFatseas

 

You still try to avoid disproving my point. You try to accuse me of buying stuff, which has nothing to do with communism failures, which, you believe, exist.

 

 

Oh horsesh*t. I know I said I wasn't going to argue. But c'mon.

 

Why has every country that has every attempted Communism failed or is in the process of failing then huh?

 

USSR

China-Free Market Moving towards being fascist

The Eastern Bloc

Cambodia

Vietnam

DPRK

Cuba

etc..

 

And don't give me that 'True' communism either, because every country started out with that intention in mind.

 

 

Communism will not work because at the very core it conflicts with the laws of reality and human nature.

 

 

What we have here works perfectly, mainly because its been here for ages and whoever tries to change it always produces quite crap outsomes.

 

Kinda like Tsarist Russia no?

 

ETA: f*ck it I'm done. All your going to do is pick out parts you can argue, and leave the rest.(Example:The Page on the Socialist Myth) You haven't gave me ONE source. All you do is deny or say they lie, with nothing to back them up but your own opinion.

 

Ok, throw me a source.

 

 

Solzhenitsyn, Fomenko, Rezun, Radzinskiy, Kasparov, Novodvorskaya and some other new-russian historians add a new million to the victims of Stalin every day.

Yeah, that wasn't a source whatsoever. You avoided the request, hell you didn't even back your 'source' up with any sort of reasoning as well.

 

I hope you read this though, but I don't expect you to reply.

 

Everything you have told me is nothing more than straight revisionist bullsh*t. Tell me, all those people died, and if the government didn't kill them, where did they go? They didn't just walk off the face of the earth did they? I guess those 2 million people of Cambodia just disappeared, not because communism under Pol Pot killed them right? I guess all that documentation and the Killing Fields don't exist either. Or how about the seven million in the Ukraine? China? Katyn Wood? Stalin's Purges? Or....

 

You are nothing more than a spin doctor, you ignore obvious facts, and either substitute them for your own, or outright lie. It's hard to tell, are you brainwashed, stupid, or a combination of both? Even Marx said:

 

You must, therefore, confess that by "individual" you mean no other person than the bourgeois, than the middle-class owner of property. This person must indeed, be swept out of the way, and made impossible.
Manifesto of the Communist Party Progress Publishers, Moscow, 1973 edition, page 66

Communism wouldn't exist if it didn't kill. Explained here in simple words.

 

You think capitalism and the free market is evil, yet it is the most successful system and used by nearly every government in the world. You can't deny that, otherwise it would be a failure . I mean the economies of the US, Europe, Japan and many others, including China(Who more or less is leaving communism/socialism to fascism) can't be wrong. Otherwise why is it used so much and why is it so successful? History shows us that. Oh lets not forget the the West won the Cold War. Which was nothing more than a war between the two idealisms. You keep telling us communism doesn't have problems, so why the hell did it lose? I means if it's the perfect system it can't lose right? Collasping at the end of the Cold War does nothing more than show it's is an imperfect system. History shows the better system comes out on top and all that history has shown on Communism is that has failed time and time again.

 

I live fine, I'm sure you do too. I don't see the point of changing a system where I can be successful. Nevermind you said so yourself.

 

What we have here works perfectly,mainly because its been here for ages and whoever tries to change it always produces quite crap outsomes.

You are going to say "That's not what I meant." Well what did you mean, all you can get out of that sentence is "The system in place now has worked here fine for many many years, so it doesn't need to changed, because bad things will always happen." So if the current system works fine, why do you want communism? Let's not forget communism is a new idea, and to bring change it would have to change the old systems, even though as you said yourself that would produce crap outcomes. Well, is that true, or are you just inconsistent?

 

Communism is a hack, you can never put down human free will or crush the human spirit. And commies they tried, hard. I mean if you could, why did all those people who dissented against communism exist? Many times within their own borders. Solidarity must be a hack then, if there is nothing wrong with communism, why do people speak out against it? Not everyone thinks like you. Nevermind it is human nature to be better than your fellow man, thats one of our basic instincts. You cannot suppress that. Besides, to put down those instincts,(nevermind that free thinking and trying to become better than your next door neighbor is basic survival, you can't get rid of survival instincts, not to mention ones that we have had for millions of years.) you need a ruling class in power, but that is not communism is it? Having a ruling power to force oppression on the masses, that doesn't sound like common equality among people to me. Thats a class structure.

 

Communism, let alone true communism is nothing more than a complete infeasibilty. You simply can't change human nature. Oh and don't tell me there is no such thing as true individual human nature, because...

 

Stalin did not stop people from leaving the coutry. if you don't like the rules...

You acknowledge right there that people form their own opinions. Is that the same inconsistency I pointed out earlier? Remember an idea of communism is

 

Human nature is the product of the economic environment in which the individual is raised.

 

"Your very ideas are but the outgrowth of the conditions of your bourgeois production."

Communist Manifesto Page 67

So if communism is supposed to adhere to this 'Scientific Law' by creating this economic environment, why do people still have dissenting opinions?

 

Lets not forget religion, a communist society is supposed to be an atheistic society. Stalin attempted to destroy the Orthodox church in the thirties, but after the advent of WWII he allowed it to continue as a 'Patriotic' organization. What? If you don't see the problem with that and the words of Marx you have a problem. So, how do you defend that? Religion lasted in the Soviet Union, till the end, in either the state churches, or practiced underground. Religion was never completely abandoned by the people.

 

You can continue living your life as a communist for all I care(I mean we are free to live as whoever we please, and we chose to live are lives our way, nobody chose for us, right?) you live in a government that allows it.(Trust me, it does, or else you wouldn't be. At least you have a choice, unlike all those people who lived under communism that didn't like the system. Not everybody has the means to move. Doesn't want to move, nor even was it accepted to leave. Berlin Wall ring a bell? Remember we are not talking only about Russia here.)

 

I'll bring this back up. From our earlier discussion on communism.

 

hey couldn't afford lose the "Brains" of the country, or the common working man.

 

Ah, OK

 

 

Thats a lot of people who didn't like the system.

Shouldn't be voting for Hitler then in the first place smile.gif

Those two quotes right there prove that you believe that communism tried to prevent people from leaving, and that you believe that communism oppresses people who do not believe in the system.

 

Oh you might want to stop bringing up Mikhail Gorbachev. If communism is the perfect system, why did a man like Mikhail Gorbachev come to power huh? Who you said had no goal other than to destroy the USSR. Face it, communism is uniquely vulnerable to a man like Mikhail. Otherwise, why did he bring it down? The system should have safeguards to prevent that, right?.

 

Oh yeah

 

Yeah, but on another hand I keep silent about disadvantages of Russian Empire, Soviet Russia, USSR, Russian Federation, UK and Wales smile.gif

 

You still try to avoid disproving my point. You try to accuse me of buying stuff, which has nothing to do with communism failures, which, you believe, exist.

So.... Which is it? Its got to be one right? Are you just being inconsistent again? If so why should we take you seriously?

 

All you do consistently is lie, and change your positions on the subject.

Edited by TFatseas

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Lioshenka

 

But some people might live there before communism came along, others might like where they live. You may say "Well then they should learn to put up with it." or something, but it's just ridiculous to expect that of people, it's a violation of their rights, I woulda thunked. Also, I think the people who would be telling the jokes would be bitter about the government, hence they'd be poor. What would the rich be complaining about? And what are rich people doing in a "classless society" (given that their must be rich people to contrast with the poor, as that is implied with what you said)?

Well, I accept Uk rules, although I am from Russia. I don't see why anybody else has to be priviledged to follow any other rules. And jokes people were most probably those who lost their farms and factories during the nationalisation, poor wouldn't tell the jokes because their lives were improving every year.

 

Rich people, which I mentioned, were fighting against Soviets and had their own White army, which was defeated eveutually and all the generals and commanders made it into Japan, America and Europe.

 

 

Why has every country that has every attempted Communism failed or is in the process of failing then huh?

Communism will not work because at the very core it conflicts with the laws of reality and human nature.

You never give up do you? Before that twat came to power there was no sign of failures in the Soviet system. End of story. Case closed.

 

Everything you have told me is nothing more than straight revisionist bullsh*t. Tell me, all those people died, and if the government didn't kill them, where did they go? They didn't just walk off the face of the earth did they? I guess those 2 million people of Cambodia just disappeared, not because communism under Pol Pot killed them right? I guess all that documentation and the Killing Fields don't exist either. Or how about the seven million in the Ukraine? China? Katyn Wood? Stalin's Purges? Or....

 

You better tell me, where all those 100 000 000 people killed by Stalin lived before the repressions. They appeare quite mystically, die, and no papers are left.

 

Seven millions of white officers in Ukraine? Well, they were in the White army, which was trying to defeat the Soviet Government. It was a war, why the f*ck would you expect Red Army no to kill them. Katyn? Why would Russians be held responsible for the actions of Hitler's army? Purges? I don't know what do YOU do with people accused of crimes. I guess you feed them pie and send to bed earlier.

 

 

You are nothing more than a spin doctor, you ignore obvious facts, and either substitute them for your own, or outright lie. It's hard to tell, are you brainwashed, stupid, or a combination of both?

At least I am not as much brainwashed and stupid and ignorant as you.

 

 

Oh lets not forget the the West won the Cold War.

Nobody won the Cold war. It was never finished, open you bloody eyes.

 

 

You keep telling us communism doesn't have problems, so why the hell did it lose?
FFS learn to read. Gorbachyov. The strawberry-on-the-head guy. Destoroyed. It. By. Making. It. Into. The government.

 

 

You think capitalism and the free market is evil, yet it is the most successful system and used by nearly every government in the world.

Yet the aim is to get over this system and reach that kind of state when everyone can have anything for free. Give the guys at least 100 years or do you expect them to have free everything 50 years after being formed?

 

 

 

So if the current system works fine, why do you want communism?

Go over the last 2 pages carefully with your friend. Find anywhere where I said that I want communism. Being failed to do so go cry in shame.

 

 

Face it, communism is uniquely vulnerable to a man like Mikhail. Otherwise, why did he bring it down? The system should have safeguards to prevent that, right?

You can never be protected from a group of traitors + american propaganda did its job, and did good.

 

 

 

So.... Which is it? Its got to be one right? Are you just being inconsistent again? If so why should we take you seriously?

Disadvantages and failures are not the same things.

 

 

Lots of theoretic and philosofic crap about Communism and human's nature

Let me put this arguement to the end.

 

For 70 years people of Soviet Union had a system which provided free education, free holidays for workers, grants and benefits, great secutity both inside and outside the country, race-equality policy, income-equality policy, stability, free health care and lots of stuff I dont remember.

 

For 70 years the country has shown a number of great achievements in all areas of life(WW2 victory, First Man in Space to name a few).

 

For 70 year the majority of USSR's citizens were either positive or neutral towards the ruling system.

 

Now, majority of people of RF feel the same towards USSR and many things linked with it.

 

And you can't do anything about that.

 

I don't care about your theories and discussion about ideal form of Communism, neither do I care about you trying to agrue about every word i have used wrongly. Sort yout your democracy first, then sort out the mess you did in all other countries and then start occusing communists of not letting people speack their mind smile.gif

Edited by ˸øåíüêà

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