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The Unvirginiser

Knife Crime

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The Unvirginiser

What do you think the punishment should be for youths caught carrying weapons? Especially knifes?

The British goverment are having a huge crackdown on knife crime, paticually in youths.

 

What do you think the punishment should be for a teenager caught with a knife n them? Imprisonment? A warning?

 

We are constantly bombarded with news about people who have been murdered by some muppet with a blade. Ive seen people carry them, I've had one held to me, I personally think this whole culture which revolves around little sh*ts carrying knives needs to be crushed by harsh punishments for these pricks who think there solid carrying weapons.

Edited by The Unvirginiser

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HomoUniversalis

Considering carrying arms is a victimless crime, no, I don't see any warrant for punishing it. If you wish to prevent people getting killed by knife, and you think harsh punishments are a deterrent, maybe you should instate harsh punishments for knife crimes.

 

Of course, I have yet to see anyone argue successfully, or back up with a scientific study the thus far only asserted beauty of deterrence. Add to that the rather philosophically impoverished notion of social revenge, and you're really only locking up prisoners to get them off the streets. In effect, to reduce the chance of a crime occurring. Of course, even that is hard to establish, because since we don't lock up people for life, we don't know whether the high rate of recidivism is due to the crime-prone guys getting caught, or whether jail increases their propensity towards crime.

 

But, far be it for me to endorse some huge social experiment - especially when the prison/judicial system is doing so well across the world.

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The Unvirginiser

You think carrying a deadly weapon isn't a reason for punishment?

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HomoUniversalis
You think carrying a deadly weapon isn't a reason for punishment?

Considering carrying arms is a victimless crime, no, I don't see any warrant for punishing it.

 

I think 'deadly weapon' is a term relevant insofar as assault with a deadly weapon might be perceived as attempted murder. So I think it might be judicially relevant, but no - like I said in my original post - I see no reason for punishing it. Victimless crime.

 

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The Unvirginiser

It's a f*cking knife, that can be used to kill somebody!

If we punish people for carrying them.. then maybe there will be less and less, which will result in less murders due to knife crime.

 

You think carrying a minigun around with you to the shops should't be punished?

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Wanted Assailant
It's a f*cking knife, that can be used to kill somebody!

If we punish people for carrying them.. then maybe there will be less and less, which will result in less murders due to knife crime.

 

You think carrying a minigun around with you to the shops should't be punished?

Next thing you know, pens will be illegalized for potential-ness of murder.

 

Listen, anything can be used for harm and death.

Things such as guns are excuses. At least most of the time shooting deaths are quick.

 

Remember the caveman days? What did they use?

 

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HomoUniversalis
It's a f*cking knife, that can be used to kill somebody!

If we punish people for carrying them.. then maybe there will be less and less, which will result in less murders due to knife crime.

 

You think carrying a minigun around with you to the shops should't be punished?

You can use a car to kill people.

 

I hardly see how your unfounded hopes -- 'maybe there will be' -- are a solemn foundation for legislation.

 

As for a minigun, even though that is a completely unrealistic scenario (I challenge you to carry around the ammunition alone) - I talked about this in my first post:

 

 

If you wish to prevent people getting killed by knife, and you think harsh punishments are a deterrent, maybe you should instate harsh punishments for knife crimes.

 

If you believe/hope/expect that there will be a deterrence from punishment, why would there be knife killings at all? Why would you want to ban knives when the act of killing someone with a knife is already illegal?

 

Unless of course, you wish to rouse us with the "The blade itself inspires hatred" pearl. But, I'm getting ahead of myself. Reread my original post.

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The Unvirginiser

So many murders commited by teengers carrying knives?

And you think it shouldn't be against the law to carry one? There not out chopping wood with them ya'know

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Tony Mozzarelli 80
It's a f*cking knife, that can be used to kill somebody!

If we punish people for carrying them.. then maybe there will be less and less, which will result in less murders due to knife crime.

 

You think carrying a minigun around with you to the shops should't be punished?

You can use a car to kill people.

 

I hardly see how your unfounded hopes -- 'maybe there will be' -- are a solemn foundation for legislation.

 

As for a minigun, even though that is a completely unrealistic scenario (I challenge you to carry around the ammunition alone) - I talked about this in my first post:

 

 

If you wish to prevent people getting killed by knife, and you think harsh punishments are a deterrent, maybe you should instate harsh punishments for knife crimes.

 

If you believe/hope/expect that there will be a deterrence from punishment, why would there be knife killings at all? Why would you want to ban knives when the act of killing someone with a knife is already illegal?

 

Unless of course, you wish to rouse us with the "The blade itself inspires hatred" pearl. But, I'm getting ahead of myself. Reread my original post.

That is a good point in my opinion. anyone likely to disregard the law and stab somebody,

is unlikely to abide by any law which states that they cannot carry their murder weapon.

 

I do however see the point in making it illegal to carry them unless you have a reasonable

excuse to be doing so. Otherwise it shall be assumed you intend to stab someone Haha

 

But knives don't kill people

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The Unvirginiser

Did you all take stupid pills this morning?

 

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Vercetti21

Although this is a somewhat cliche statement, I'll say it anyway: knives and guns do not kill people. People kill people. If a kid really wants to kill someone, he'll do it, while weapons are simply tools. Blaming the knife for a murder is like crediting a hammer for the construction of a building. Furthermore, these tools can (and should) be used for self-defense purposes, and we shouldn't restrict people from being able to carry them. In a situation where a woman could be a potential rape victim, she is instantly given the upper hand by carrying a weapon. Who are we to say that she can't protect her own life by any means necessary?

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Tony Mozzarelli 80
Did you all take stupid pills this morning?

You did read what i said didn't you?

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Ph3L1z14n0

 

knives and guns do not kill people. People kill people

That's not entirely true, due to the culture we live in, weapons have become social symbols, therefore, if you were to rob a liquor store, would you be encouraged to do so if your partner gave you a machete or an AK-47? guns specially, are symbols of power, and can serve as catalysts for potentially more dangerous crimes, it doesn't mean that outlawing every weapon will stop these crimes, people still kill people, but the semantic property of a weapon is a factor when it comes to crime.

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The Unvirginiser

So your saying if a police officer stops a youth and searches him? And he has a big knife on him? Then there shouldn't be a law against it and he should be allowed to carry on?

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Vercetti21

 

knives and guns do not kill people. People kill people

That's not entirely true, due to the culture we live in, weapons have become social symbols, therefore, if you were to rob a liquor store, would you be encouraged to do so if your partner gave you a machete or an AK-47? guns specially, are symbols of power, and can serve as catalysts for potentially more dangerous crimes, it doesn't mean that outlawing every weapon will stop these crimes, people still kill people, but the semantic property of a weapon is a factor when it comes to crime.

Don't get me wrong, weapons do definitely help the criminal, and may even offer some sort of encouragement. But to blame the weapon for the crime itself is absurd. I'm sick of having to give up my rights because a handful of people are constantly abusing it, and ruining it for everyone else. As someone said, they use weapons as an excuse as to somehow take the weight off of their head while being prosecuted, and many anti-gun radicals actually buy in to that sh*t. But me - I'm not going to give up my own self-defense in order to please the government.

 

"Anyone who gives up liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security."

-Benjamin Franklin

 

 

So your saying if a police officer stops a youth and searches him? And he has a big knife on him? Then there shouldn't be a law against it and he should be allowed to carry on?

Taking the knife away from the youth isn't going to stop the youth from killing somebody if he is determined to do so. Whose to say he won't just go home and grab a kitchen knife? Or should we start banning kitchen knives now?

 

If anything, to take the weapon away from the kid will only be a mere annoyance to the youth and a waste of the police officer's time.

Edited by Vercetti21

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Ph3L1z14n0

 

Don't get me wrong, weapons do definitely help the criminal, and may even offer some sort of encouragement. But to blame the weapon for the crime itself is absurd. I'm sick of having to give up my rights because a handful of people are constantly abusing it, and ruining it for everyone else. As someone said, they use weapons as an excuse as to somehow take the weight off of their head while being prosecuted, and many anti-gun radicals actually buy in to that sh*t. But me - I'm not going to give up my own self-defense in order to please the government.

 

"Anyone who gives up liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security."

-Benjamin Franklin

No offense man, but i think that a lot of people should at least admit that they want to use guns because they just like to shoot stuff, that's not wrong at all, but stating Self-Defense every single time the argument rises is weak and lame, i live in a country that has a homicide rate as high as Iraq in the war, and i have never ever been in the need of weapons to defend my home, if you are like me, middle class, then i don't see why you should really need a gun, like i said, no offense intended, but i think many pro-gun people have been clinging to this argument way too long, specially in the US, the only country in the world that believes that their crime rate is higher than any other countries.

 

Altthough i gotta agree that anti-gun people are not seeing the full spectrum of the problem, certainly taking away guns won't stop every single murder, i do believe it would reduce them greatly, but it's not the deffinitive solution.

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Vercetti21

 

Don't get me wrong, weapons do definitely help the criminal, and may even offer some sort of encouragement. But to blame the weapon for the crime itself is absurd. I'm sick of having to give up my rights because a handful of people are constantly abusing it, and ruining it for everyone else. As someone said, they use weapons as an excuse as to somehow take the weight off of their head while being prosecuted, and many anti-gun radicals actually buy in to that sh*t. But me - I'm not going to give up my own self-defense in order to please the government.

 

"Anyone who gives up liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security."

-Benjamin Franklin

No offense man, but i think that a lot of people should at least admit that they want to use guns because they just like to shoot stuff, that's not wrong at all, but stating Self-Defense every single time the argument rises is weak and lame, i live in a country that has a homicide rate as high as Iraq in the war, and i have never ever been in the need of weapons to defend my home, if you are like me, middle class, then i don't see why you should really need a gun, like i said, no offense intended, but i think many pro-gun people have been clinging to this argument way too long, specially in the US, the only country in the world that believes that their crime rate is higher than any other countries.

 

Altthough i gotta agree that anti-gun people are not seeing the full spectrum of the problem, certainly taking away guns won't stop every single murder, i do believe it would reduce them greatly, but it's not the deffinitive solution.

Crime rate does not matter. A shot to the head will kill you, regardless of how often you face the situation. If having a gun or knife makes a person feel secure, then f*ck, let them have it. The truth of the matter is that crime can happen anytime, anywhere. Who are you to say that a person doesn't need protection solely because of where he lives?

 

Besides that, keep in mind that a criminal is someone who breaks the law. Many gun crimes are committed with guns which are obtained illegally, without a license. If you restrict anyone from having weapons, criminals are still going to be able to obtain them. The innocents are the only ones in which a gun ban would harm. Unless you want to destroy every single gun in the entire world, which is... impossible to say the least.

Edited by Vercetti21

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Ph3L1z14n0

 

Crime rate does not matter. A shot to the head will kill you, regardless of how often you face the situation. If having a gun or knife makes a person feel secure, then f*ck, let them have it. The truth of the matter is that crime can happen anytime, anywhere. Who are you to say that a person doesn't need protection solely because of where he lives?

Look, i didn't say that guns should be outlawed, what i said is that there is a torrent of overrated fear in many places like the US, and even though a gun can help you defend yourself from a criminal, it's not really the reason why any pro-gun person has guns in his house, i was just making a remark on the hypocrisy of many people who like guns, i remember in the gun topic here in this forum, K^2 was one of the members who said it clearly "I like to see things explode in small species when i shoot them", now that's how i remember it, but the point is that all the other people in that discussion were bringing crap like the constitution and other nonsense like that, which was not the real reason.

 

 

Besides that, keep in mind that a criminal is someone who breaks the law. Many gun crimes are committed with guns which are obtained illegally, without a license. If you restrict anyone from having weapons, criminals are still going to be able to obtain them. The innocents are the only ones in which a gun ban would harm. Unless you want to destroy every single gun in the entire world, which is... impossible to say the least.

I don't want this to end like the child abuse topic man, i didn't say i was anti-gun, and i didn't say i was pro-banning weapons, what i said is that weapons are an important factor and catalyst for crimes, besides, just as an opinion, where do the illegal weapons come from? the russian mafiya? the cosa nostra? i believe (as an opinion) that it's more likely that someone who sells a gun illegaly is a man who either has a gun shop or had previous access to gun, like a veteran, just a thought.

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Teqila
Did you all take stupid pills this morning?

You fail. I shouldn't need to explain.

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Vercetti21

 

...even though a gun can help you defend yourself from a criminal, it's not really the reason why any pro-gun person has guns in his house.

First of all, prove this statement to me. The gun topic at GTAF does not count.

 

I think it's way to far-fetched to claim that pro-gun people don't truly care about self-defense. You can't give the people a right, take that right away, and not expect rebellion to ensue. Someone who is pro-gun is only trying to protect the individual rights granted to him. Surely he doesn't support his right to bear arms solely because it's fun to shoot stuff, as you suggest? Other than rights, what about hunting? Protection? You didn't really see a rise in "gun pride" and the protection of firearm rights until they were attacked by anti-gun people. Back in say, 1700's America when nearly everyone owned a gun, no one really had a problem with them and thus you never saw pro-gun people on the defensive, as they are today. That was because nearly everyone needed protection from the harsh living conditions. Today, in our more civilized society, people want to toss out gun rights because they are misjudging just how "civilized" our society is. In my eyes, I see the pro-gun people with the more logical, "don't trust the government", pro-individual rights side of the debate. It is certainly not about blowing up stuff.

 

 

...what i said is that weapons are an important factor and catalyst for crimes...

In some ways you are right, but in most cases I believe you are wrong. Think of it this way: does a person who goes to buy a weapon see the weapon, and are instantly convinced they should kill someone? Or do they want to kill someone, and find a weapon to do so? For the majority of cases, I believe it is the latter, but either way, like I said, a gun is just a tool and can't be to blame for someone's crimes.

 

 

...besides, just as an opinion, where do the illegal weapons come from?

I don't know, and I don't see how that would matter. The fact is that if a criminal wants to kill someone, he will get his hands on a gun one way or another with little regard to the law, thus making a gun ban virtually pointless and only harmful to the law-abiding citizens.

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Stefan.

A gun ban wouldn't accomplish anything, nor would a knife ban. I honour the fact that people have a right to protect themselves, and that if people are preparing to give up their liberty for security, then they should have neither. Guns are intended for self-protection in the right hands. If you ban guns, people will still find a way to get guns from the black market, whether it be through corrupt police, the Mafia, etc. If peoplw want to reduce gun crimes, then they need to impose harsher punishments for committing gun crimes, which could include pulling a gun on someone if you have no reason to. Same thing is applied with knives. Carrying knives at night, but concealing, is perfectly harmless because we assume that the person carrying it is carrying it for self-protection. If he pulls it out on someone for no apparent reason, then yes, that should be a crime with a hefty punishment.

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Struff Bunstridge
Considering carrying arms is a victimless crime, no, I don't see any warrant for punishing it.

 

Why would anybody carry a knife unless they intended to use it to harm someone? I'm not talking about pen knives, although they are still lethal weapons in the wrong hands. I mean hunting knives, or flick knives, or butterfly knives. A knife is a knife, but there's a big difference between a butter knife and a switchblade.

 

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HomoUniversalis
Considering carrying arms is a victimless crime, no, I don't see any warrant for punishing it.

 

Why would anybody carry a knife unless they intended to use it to harm someone? I'm not talking about pen knives, although they are still lethal weapons in the wrong hands. I mean hunting knives, or flick knives, or butterfly knives. A knife is a knife, but there's a big difference between a butter knife and a switchblade.

The point of freedom is that I don't have to explain why I carry a knife, just like I don't have to explain to you - or a court, or a government committee - why I prefer this or that method of expression. I don't have to give examples of cases where having a knife would be handy - even though I can think of plenty.

 

As for many of the examples given by earlier posters, about 'a youth carrying a knife' -- again, the problem is not 'a youth' carrying a knife, but using it to threaten someone or to assault someone, &c. - acts which are already illegal. You're not making anything harmful criminal, you are just taking further liberties. Why would your lack of imagination to the legal uses of a knife imply the abolition of the liberty to carry knives?

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Struff Bunstridge
The point of freedom is that I don't have to explain why I carry a knife, just like I don't have to explain to you - or a court, or a government committee - why I prefer this or that method of expression. I don't have to give examples of cases where having a knife would be handy - even though I can think of plenty.

 

As for many of the examples given by earlier posters, about 'a youth carrying a knife' -- again, the problem is not 'a youth' carrying a knife, but using it to threaten someone or to assault someone, &c. - acts which are already illegal. You're not making anything harmful criminal, you are just taking further liberties. Why would your lack of imagination to the legal uses of a knife imply the abolition of the liberty to carry knives?

Can I request that you go ahead and list some examples of occasions where you'd feel it appropriate to carry a twelve inch hunting knife around, say, an inner city estate, or a busy high street? Only I can't think of any.

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HomoUniversalis

So now a switch-blade becomes a twelve-inch hunting knife? Again - no, I don't at all feel obligated. Whatever uses you may come up with that are illegal, they are illegal, and do not require the further rendering of the knife illegal. Indeed, a court may already decide that someone carrying that kind of a knife and then stabbing someone was premeditated.

 

The onus is on you to demonstrate why carrying a knife, again a victimless crime, ought to be criminalised.

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Eddie280

This issue is very personal to me as a friend of mine was stabbed in January in and the trial of the attackers is on going. I personally don't feel safe when walking around London as a teenage male I am most at risk from knife crime.

 

But I think the emphasis shouldn't be on pinishment, obviously sufficient deterrent is needed but the bulk of time and reasources should be spend on prevention, the coprehensive school system should be improved and kids should be educated about knife crime and it's affects. Many kids feel forgotten by the government and school system and I think an improvement in education could solve many of the social problems Britain faces today.

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Struff Bunstridge

Nothing's becoming anything. I also previously mentioned butterfly knives and flick knives, I don't mind which one we use as an example.

 

To answer your question, I feel that carrying a knife ought to be criminalised because the statistical probability of someone injuring someone else with a knife falls to zero if they're not carrying one; criminalisation is a step towards achieving this. Yes, one could just as easily injure someone with a ballpoint pen, but one is allowed to carry those because they can be put to uses other than violence with no stretching of the imagination.

 

I believe I've demonstrated my argument; whether or not you agree is immaterial. Are you willing to submit your own demonstration as to why you feel carrying offensive weapons is acceptable?

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HomoUniversalis

 

Nothing's becoming anything. I also previously mentioned butterfly knives and flick knives, I don't mind which one we use as an example.

 

So you are honestly suggesting that the only use you can imagine for a butterfly knife is assaulting someone?

 

 

To answer your question, I feel that carrying a knife ought to be criminalised because the statistical probability of someone injuring someone else with a knife falls to zero if they're not carrying one;

 

confused.gif

 

 

criminalisation is a step towards achieving this.

 

An unfounded assertion. Just skipping over the part that requires the evidence doesn't make your argument any better. Perhaps you should reread my original post in this thread, where I dealt with all of this pre-emptively.

 

 

Yes, one could just as easily injure someone with a ballpoint pen, but one is allowed to carry those because they can be put to uses other than violence with no stretching of the imagination.

 

'Stretching of the imagination'? Are you seriously suggesting that you have to stretch your imagination to consider the legitimate use of a knife? Don't be facetious.

 

 

I believe I've demonstrated my argument; whether or not you agree is immaterial. Are you willing to submit your own demonstration as to why you feel carrying offensive weapons is acceptable?

 

As I said before, I have no inclination to qualify towards such vague and ambiguous criterion as 'stretching of the imagination'. The onus is on you to demonstrate that criminalising carrying a knife will reduce knife-related crimes. But I can certainly understand you attempting to turn the tables around when you have so little to base your position on.

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Ph3L1z14n0

 

First of all, prove this statement to me. The gun topic at GTAF does not count.

Do you hunt? do you shoot targets? just asking.

 

 

I think it's way to far-fetched to claim that pro-gun people don't truly care about self-defense.You can't give the people a right, take that right away, and not expect rebellion to ensue. Someone who is pro-gun is only trying to protect the individual rights granted to him. Surely he doesn't support his right to bear arms solely because it's fun to shoot stuff, as you suggest? Other than rights, what about hunting? Protection? You didn't really see a rise in "gun pride" and the protection of firearm rights until they were attacked by anti-gun people. Back in say, 1700's America when nearly everyone owned a gun, no one really had a problem with them and thus you never saw pro-gun people on the defensive, as they are today. That was because nearly everyone needed protection from the harsh living conditions. Today, in our more civilized society, people want to toss out gun rights because they are misjudging just how "civilized" our society is. In my eyes, I see the pro-gun people with the more logical, "don't trust the government", pro-individual rights side of the debate. It is certainly not about blowing up stuff.

 

Ok man, now you're just being weird tounge.gif , i never said i was anti-gun and pro-banning of weapons, i never said that, like in my previous post i was only criticizing the hypocrisy of gun nuts who have collections of semi-automatic weapons, and yet they argue that they want to protect their house, that amount of firearms would be reasonable if the robber came to your house in Tony Stark's suit, this doesn't merit ban at all, don't twist my words, it just shows how really hypocritical many pro-gun people are when they're asked why do they have that amount of guns, and instead of saying, i like to shoot sh*t, they pull out the US constitution, it's insulting not only to the people but to your constitution itself.

 

 

In some ways you are right, but in most cases I believe you are wrong. Think of it this way: does a person who goes to buy a weapon see the weapon, and are instantly convinced they should kill someone? Or do they want to kill someone, and find a weapon to do so? For the majority of cases, I believe it is the latter, but either way, like I said, a gun is just a tool and can't be to blame for someone's crimes.

Of course, most husbands don't kill their wives because they saw that big shiny M16 rifle on the window stand, but either something has to be done with the culture we live in, or some other measures besides banning should be taken, i think it wasn't a bad move to modify automatic rifles to semi-automatic for example, if a crazy gun shop owned decided to sell some rifles, they rifles themselves wouldn't be efficient enough for the purpose of robbing a bank, a store, or for a gang war, but it is efficient for defending your home against a couple of burglars, hunting and shooting targets, and that didn't sacrifice people's right to protect themselves.

 

 

I don't know, and I don't see how that would matter. The fact is that if a criminal wants to kill someone, he will get his hands on a gun one way or another with little regard to the law, thus making a gun ban virtually pointless and only harmful to the law-abiding citizens.

Once again, i never said i was pro-banning, second, how the hell can't it matter where a gun comes from? what if it comes from the owner of the gun shop that sells you legally your guns? it wouldn't be bad for him to make an extra buck by selling the rest to other criminals, in that case it does matter, and some measures that don't harm the people's right to defend themselves have to be taken.

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Struff Bunstridge

OK. First of all, I can see plenty of reasons why someone would own a butterfly knife. What I can't see is how many of those uses would demand attention at 1am on a Saturday night on a high street somewhere in a large town or city. I believe in the specific case of a butterfly knife, possession is illegal in many states of the US, import and sale is prohibited in most European countries, and they are almost universally considered an offensive weapon by the authorities; I see no valid reason for anyone to be walking around carrying one.

 

I thought your smiley was a little facetious in turn; how is it possible for someone to use a knife for anything, when they're not carrying one? Maybe my claim of zero probability was a little extreme, but if people are prohibited from carrying them, then the only possible result is a drop in knife-related violent crime; it's hardly going to increase, is it?

 

No, I wasn't suggesting legitimate use of knives is a stretch of the imagination. It is simply more of a stretch to imagine a pen being used as a deadly weapon than a knife, which is why you're allowed to carry pens, but knives are the topic of this discussion. You seem to have found a comfortable standpoint, where all you're doing is questioning my arguments without presenting any of your own, claiming what appears to be some moral high ground.

 

Do you honestly believe that criminalising possession of knives in a public place will have absolutely no positive effect on knife crime? Because if that's the case, why don't we allow possession of guns, or plastic explosive, in public? Why is the import and sale of butterfly knives largely prohibited? Why aren't we allowed to carry running chainsaws through shopping centres, if criminalisation of offensive weapons is not the optimum way to limit illegal use of said weapons? In short, why, in your opinion sir, has anybody ever bothered passing a prohibitive law against offensive weapons anywhere in the world, if you don't believe it has the desired effect?

Edited by Struff Bunstridge

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