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28RedEyedCrows

The Goal of Complete Freedom

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28RedEyedCrows

I actually was writing this as a response to PATT3N's "Am I The Only One Who Still Loves GTA?" topic and some of the other posters, but because I couldn't shut up, I decided to make this a topic. Sorry it's so long, and you can take it or leave it, but I wanted to get this off my chest. I would like to think/hope that people from Rockstar pay attention to your feedback out there, so this is just an addition.

 

I love GTA IV, and I loved all of them at one point or the other. (I've been with them since GTA One for the PC) Nearly every time; what kills a GTA for me is the graphics, not the gameplay. I normally only stop playing them when other games surpass them in the graphics department (sometimes even Rockstar's own games such as 'The Warriors') cause going back to them, they look funky and become hard to play for those that aren't hardcore.

 

As much as I played the hell out of them - especially San Andreas or even GTA2 - I always used to make fun of the way people died/fell down, how things blew up, the cartoony visuals, etc. ever since Vice City. Regarding the 3D versions, it has almost always been behind the times graphically (except III), and for some reason, (possibly because of the size) has never been up to par visually with any of Rockstar's other big time games, which doesn't make a lot of sense. I got 'Bully' and 'The Warriors' and went back later to play 'San Andreas' and was frustrated that it couldn't even compete graphically with those two games, so I forgot about it and kept playing 'Bully'. The fighting systems and animations alone in those two games were so superior. Wasn't the first 'Manhunt' out before SA? I only stopped playing that game just before 'Manhunt 2' came out. I still love the way that game is, though it's finally pretty dated now.

 

Despite me bashing GTA graphically, I still played them for months and months for one reason: "The freedom to do anything in a large, virtual world." Of course, this concept has not come true just yet, but the groundwork has been a lot of fun so far. They've tried hard to give us a lot of stuff to do, and make it bigger and more interactive every time.

 

But now, suddenly, GTA IV comes out with great graphics and THE best reaction system (Euphoria is it?) I've personally ever seen. The way people react and fall... I can't get enough of the shoot outs, and the world, lighting, etc. are beautiful. I also know that they put a LOT of effort into the story and acting and commend them for it. I don't fault them for anything that is there.

 

Of course, I know why people are frustrated; Now the graphics are great, the animations are great, the story is great and what happened? There's less free stuff to do, and even though the graphics alone make the game as replayable to many (myself included) as SA, the end-of-game replayability suffers once again and it's getting old. (I'm talking about Single Player)

 

There's nothing wrong with they DID add. The relationships, the mini-games, all of those are brilliant; but Rockstar has a bad habit of creating these awesome worlds, only to forget to add in missions/events that can be randomly generated and infinitely played once the story is done. The groundwork is always there, and it nearly always falls short. Many times it wouldn't even be difficult to do. With 'The Warriors' there were no more gangs to fight, and you end up being civilian beating thugs. With 'Bully' there were no more cliques or jerks to fight, and you end up being a bully yourself. The same ideas are what hurt GTA. The assassination missions could have been infinite, gangs could be more prominent and go to war with each other (or you), no taxi missions (except in the beginning), no more riots, rampages, ambulance missions....(sigh). The only thing that is action oriented I CAN do in 'GTA IV', now that I've completed it, is shoot civilians and cops at random (seeing a trend here?), except for the vigilante missions which had SO much potential. Have you ever gone after a gang and called the police? They get in awesome shootouts and is one of the coolest things I've ever seen in a game. You can even hide behind one of the cops' cars with them while they are shooting at each other, but guess what? You try and help the police by shooting your own gun and you've got a 2-3 star wanted level. Let us JOIN the police for crying out loud. Some of us want to be good guys. 555-RECRUIT should have worked, seriously... I love the freedom, but Rockstar tends to limit gamers to being a$$holes once the stories are done (action wise), unless you like walking. You can't even be smart a$$holes.

 

Part of that 100 million went to recreating a city that works, for the most part, as an interactive postcard (not counting the people/vehicles). It's gorgeous and fun as hell to drive/run through it, but once you've seen it, you've seen it. You can't even sit down on benches or smash windows, and you can't be awed forever. I would have been happy in an area just the size of ONE of the islands if I could actually enter the buildings and shops were functional, and I've been hoping for that ever since III came out. I'm still waiting. I was so disappointed when I got to Las Venturas in SA, saw all of those beautiful Casinos only to discover that only TWO were enterable.

 

I, and others, can get a bad rap from other fans for being hard on Rockstar. But you know why we are? We love this game/series and we want to see it reach it's full potential. We know Rockstar "rocks". GTA IV made 500 million! It's not like people are sending flaming bags of poo to Rockstar. (Bully Reference)

 

With that said: This, finally, needs to become a true crime simulator, even if it takes longer to release the next game. That 'freedom' tag needs to reign true. The graphics engine is finally awesome, so let's go for it! We need to be able to break into buildings, put graffiti on walls, blow up more than just cars, deal drugs, rob stores, take hostages, start gangs, start gang wars, prison breaks, have stand offs with negotions, etc. etc. And for the good guys, we should have a complete area for wannabe cops, adding in apprehension, transporting, detective work, intimidating interrogations, and generally working WITH the police for once which I always wanted to do. Hell, Niko is basically a good guy. I doubt he really gets a kick out of mowing down cops and civilians. He apologizes every time! Once people have TRUE freedom to interact with a COMPLETE world, complaints will fall to the floor.

 

I would honestly suggest that in the next GTA, there's no story. I LOVED the story in IV, and Niko is now one of my favorite characters ever, but seriously, going back to GTA's roots might not be a bad idea in order to get the replayability right once and for all, and Rockstar could save face by allowing players to play as cops or criminals. On the criminal end, let's just have a game like the first one, where you create a criminal and just toss that dude (or gal) into a fully functioning city where all of those things I mentioned above are available. Want to jack a car? Do it. Want to drive that car into the front window of a shop in order to steal some goods? Do it. Want to sell those goods to a pawn shop to get money for selling drugs? Do it. Oh, and why not take your jacked up car to the chop shop on the way and have a shootout with the guys when they try and screw you over. Make sure you spray paint your own custom logo on their walls once your rampage has ended, though that might piss off the local gang who will come after you. Doesn't that sound fun, AND replayable? In the eyes of the original creators, to me, that's exactly what GTA should be. Setting up a reactionary system where one thing effects another on it's own, you could make one hell of a game that would NEVER be exactly the same.

 

So there is my rant. GTA is like my kid (if I had one) I love it, I pay for it, but it can also disappoint me and piss me off. If anyone is reading this... bored.gif ...I'd like any thoughts you have. Trust me, if I could say all this to the Rockstar developers, I would. I wish/hope they'd listen to all of you.

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dutchcruijff

Woah!

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28RedEyedCrows

 

Woah!

 

ROFL! I know... lol.gif

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Tony Mozzarelli 80

I totally agree. Freedom and dynamic, open ended gameplay is the only way. But unfortunately

GTAIV takes a step the other way. I don't like to be guided through all my missions. Just tell me.

My end objective and let me go and achieve it however i want. Make me use my 'loaf' instead

of holding my hand. and give me lots of options

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ruusteri

That is a long post! wow.gificon14.gif

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Bawjaws

So you'd have a game called, 'Freedom to Choose Whether or not to Commit Grand Theft Auto'? The website address would never take off.

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Ph3L1z14n0

I was agreeing with you until i saw the "no story" comment, and although i get your point, i don't think we should sacrifice the experience itself merely for the pleasure of doing stuff you can't do in real life.

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Tony Mozzarelli 80

I think the point to 'no story' was more in the spirit of a more dynamic, open ended

experience, where the story is what the player makes it

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dutchcruijff

After reading it fully, that was a good post. I agree with you on the bit with the police especially. It would be such a cool feature by just helping them out. Plus, they're so strict. I mean i ran over a taxi driver in the middle of nowhere and bang I get a star when there's no-one there.

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28RedEyedCrows

Amen, Tony! And thanks for the reply. Thanks to you too, Ruusteri and dutchcruijff! (I'm glad someone else would actually like to help the police)

 

To Tony: I'm REALLY hoping that Rockstar doesn't use this new graphics engine as an excuse to reintroduce all of the things we've already had in the previous GTAs. It'd be fun - SA + New Engine = Awesome - but let's see some creativity! I want to see the options like you mentioned. We know it's there. Rockstar owns creativity more than they know.

 

Regarding "No Story" from Ph3L1z14n0: Actually, I wanted to add that AFTER they make a "dynamic" game (quote Tony) they SHOULD go back to story telling, but after the story is done, it should be like how Tony described, "what the player makes it". I love the stories that they've been coming up with, especially in SA and big time for this one. (I praised it under a topic regarding 'award winning story') I don't want them to dump it forever, I just want them to get the 'freedom' element right in one game, then go back and add in their cool story lines. Either that, or make it some way where there are characters, but the story is so dynamic and unpredictable that it changes depending on what you do. (I don't know how they'd do it, but it's an idea)

 

P.S. 'Hitman' is another series I love that can suffer from limits.

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oldage

Can someone make a shorter post , max 10 sentences , i don't have much time left confused.gif

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28RedEyedCrows

lol, Oldage. I had to put something like this somewhere. I just figured it ought to be GTAForums.

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Tony Mozzarelli 80

I couldn't agree more. Myself and a user called 'Tin Pot Ray' were talking about this sort of

thing before.

Like it would be great if you had the option to run your own rackets. We'll use Drug dealing

as an example. There would be a number of people around the city, from whom you could

buy your commodities. and a number of fences through which to sell them. Some fences and

suppliers would perhaps be involved with certain underworld politics, meaning that if you deal

with 'x' supplier. 'y' fence won't take goods from you anymore, until you make ammends.

In this way you would be forced to use your brain a little and take a few things into consideration

before you acted.

There would also be a number of informers around the city, with whom you would have to gain

favour by doing little tasks and jobs for them. Once you reach a certain amount of respect with

them, you can the pay them for information. They would tip you off to the location and time

of big deals going down, so you could choose to rob them. Or they may tip you off to certain

people who intend to betray you, or betray someone else.

 

Things like this would add an immense amount of replayability and require a minimal amount of

thought from the player, while simultaneously keepin a dynamic story upon which you can have

a real effect

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Bawjaws

 

Can someone make a shorter post , max 10 sentences , i don't have much time left confused.gif

he wants a complete open ended, free play, go anywhere, do anything sandbox game with an empathisis on criminal activity and the law. ('All Points Bulletin, without the online play)

Edited by Bawjaws

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28RedEyedCrows

To Tony: I'm glad to hear that someone out there really took the time to think about something like that. That's more even more complex than anything I was thinking of, but it would be great in a open-ended game. Though not complex, 'Scarface' had some very good drug-related systems. That's (your ideas) exactly the kind of stuff that the developers should be thinking about. In some cases, I think they forget it's a game and not a movie, especially with the budgets of today. They've gotten very good at writing them, and again, I love IV's story and characters - keep the characters if you like - but they need to think more about the gameplay like they used to, at least for a while.

 

To Bawjaws: Good job! I couldn't think of how to say it.

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Tony Mozzarelli 80

I also think it would be great if there was a number of crooks throughout the city who could

be recruited into your organization. Again, perhaps yyou would need to gain respect in

order for them to join. Then on any job, robbery, drug deal etc, you went on, you would

be able to choose, a small crew of let's say three men. also you could choose your gang

members to guard your businesses from enemy gangs assaults. and they will repel the

attack, that is if they're good enough. which brings me to my next point.

 

Every time you're on a job with your three man crew. your members would get better.

For instance, every time a member gets a certain amount of kills, he gets better and

tougher, eg he can take more bullet damage or becomes more accurate, or a better

driver etc. In this way you would have some long serving members who have been with

you through many capers. You could even promote them to 'captain' for example. In this

way you would grow a bond with certain members, and if during a hectic drug deal gone

awry. one of your trusted members died. You would get a real sense of loss.

This wouldn't have to be to jarring because they wouldn't necessarily need a bar or an

indicator which says. Level 10 hitman 1458 HP. or any of that. It could all be done behind

scenes.

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28RedEyedCrows

Tony: That's all excellent! Now I want to play YOUR game! lol

 

I really like the recruiting and idea about guys/gals you recruit sticking around and actually becoming 'close to you' and more experienced. I've thought of all kinds of ways you could have 'buddies' in games, and that's as good a thought as any. In fact, to tie in something from GTA IV, maybe you could even use the relationship system for men that have been with you past a certain point, so then you actually become 'friends' with them, also adding more to the 'story' and that "sense of loss" you were talking about. I mean, even imagine someone like Dwayne or Packie fighting at your side and working with you, but always at risk. Now that would be something.

 

Did you ever play 'Kingpin' for the PC? I loved that game at the time, very hardcore. They allowed you to recruit members that would stick with you for a while but without the experience system.

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AledD

 

With that said:  This, finally, needs to become a true crime simulator, even if it takes longer to release the next game.  That 'freedom' tag needs to reign true.  The graphics engine is finally awesome, so let's go for it!  We need to be able to break into buildings, put graffiti on walls, blow up more than just cars, deal drugs, rob stores, take hostages, start gangs, start gang wars, prison breaks, have stand offs with negotions, etc. etc.  And for the good guys, we should have a complete area for wannabe cops, adding in apprehension, transporting, detective work, intimidating interrogations, and generally working WITH the police for once which I always wanted to do.  Hell, Niko is basically a good guy.  I doubt he really gets a kick out of mowing down cops and civilians.  He apologizes every time!  Once people have TRUE freedom to interact with a COMPLETE world, complaints will fall to the floor.

 

 

Great post

 

But it ain't never gonna happen while the game is on the 360, as there ain't enough disk space to create 'full freedom' in a GTA game.

I hope that this is the last GTA to come to the 360, if so then the next GTA will be 10x better than GTA 4.

The chances of this happening are almost none, due to the fact that all R* care about is money. But if it did happen then there would be endless possibilities for GTA.

Edited by AledD

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Tony Mozzarelli 80
Tony: That's all excellent! Now I want to play YOUR game! lol

 

I really like the recruiting and idea about guys/gals you recruit sticking around and actually becoming 'close to you' and more experienced. I've thought of all kinds of ways you could have 'buddies' in games, and that's as good a thought as any. In fact, to tie in something from GTA IV, maybe you could even use the relationship system for men that have been with you past a certain point, so then you actually become 'friends' with them, also adding more to the 'story' and that "sense of loss" you were talking about. I mean, even imagine someone like Dwayne or Packie fighting at your side and working with you, but always at risk. Now that would be something.

 

Did you ever play 'Kingpin' for the PC? I loved that game at the time, very hardcore. They allowed you to recruit members that would stick with you for a while but without the experience system.

Yeah kingpin was great in it's day.

 

But yeah how great would it be if you could ring up Packie or Jacob, and instead of

Bowling or Darts, you could choose Bank job or Heist or Bodyguard. It's awesome

that you can call Dwayne for backup, but you don't give a sh*t about them. you would

if you'd built them up foe ages and gotten to know them. maybe some gang members

would have specialities. Like getaway driver, intimidator, sniper, explosives expert,

that kinda thing. So you wanna go rob a bookmakers for example. you want to bring

an explosives man, to blow the safe, or an intimidator to force the proprietor to open

it for you. Got a drug deal taking place in an open field or somewhere, you'll wanna

take a sniper, and tell him where to take up position. You wanna go collecting for your

protection rackets, bring a brawler. You wanna go make a drug deal. bring a negotiator.

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28RedEyedCrows

AledD: Thank you. I will agree with you that I didn't have a good feeling when Rockstar became so heavily involved with Microsoft. Isn't this DLC thing you've all been talking about something especially for them? I won't go very deep into speculation/theories since I don't follow things like that well, but Microsoft being so public, I can see many reasons why the next GTA could be better. To me, it's kind of like 'Manhunt' on the 'Wii' but in a lesser form. Everything has to be more P.C.

 

In regards to size/space: I'd be happy with a smaller city if that would allow for more things to do. If there's tons of stuff to do, the area really doesn't need to be so large, just heavy on atmosphere.

 

Tony: I'm with you all the way, and that's cool you knew Kingpin. What you're saying would all work, and I agree with Dwayne's backup. It's a cool feature, but we're both right that it'd be a lot more fun to work with your buddies. Yeah, you're really on the mark. I hope someone from Rockstar, if not seeing what we're saying is at least thinking something similar, if even to save for later.

Edited by 28RedEyedCrows

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AdamDW

Wall of text scares me blush.gif

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sananoutlaw

Great posts so far icon14.gif & first post OP

 

I loved how in VC some of your guys would hang around your businesses and protect it,even while you were just simply passing by & would see a shoot out between your guys and a rival gang & could stop and help. It would be great to recieve a phone call from one of your trusted guys if something's going down. Maybe only the ones with enough experience/respect could call you so you know it's serious. Speeding to the location hoping you can save him, worrying that he'll die. I'm loving your ideas tony & 28. icon14.gif

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Tony Mozzarelli 80

precisely the kinda thing i mean. Making you actually care about what happens.

And yes i remember that from VC seeing the your guys at the printing place

engaged in a war with the Hatians was awesome, and with the new physics would

be awesome, especially if you could buy all the weapons, and allocate them to

crew members. Equip your guys with RPG launchers and set them to defend your

business. Set up a sniper across the street in a window or on a roof. Watch the

mayhem ensue. Bribe corrupt cops. i had an idea for investigation stars too

 

Where if you killed people where in secluded places you would gain investigation

stars, and in the higher levels, undercover detectives would start following you,

you would have to switch cars or bribe them, that sort of thing. they could even

be watching your safehouses, and that kinda thing. Imagine you keep seeing a

certain van parked. or keep seeing the same ped wherever you go. this could

add a great dynamic

 

 

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28RedEyedCrows

sananoutlaw: I'm glad we have another recruit! biggrin.gif Thank you too. The 'save him' idea is right up the alley of something I'd love to see. I love the phone call thought! When they were coming out with a bunch of war games a few years back, I always wanted to see something where if your buddy was wounded, you could protect him and even help carry him to safety, watching for enemies along the way. Something even remote to that in GTA would be awesome. It would work for multiplayer lovers too. In single player, Rockstar has established extremely likable/relatable characters with great actors, so anything like that would make it that much more powerful.

 

Packie: "Sh*t, man! I've been shot! I don't want to die!"

Niko: "Come on! I've got you!" (carries him on shoulders while under fire)

Player: cryani.gif

 

biggrin.gif

 

Tony: That's funny what you said about the investigation thing. When I was bored and didn't have any new games for a while, I actually wrote out this little pen & paper game that worked like that. That could be applied some way for players acting as cops too in where they had to find particular evidence (that could also be left by you as a criminal) or talk to witnesses so many times in order to track the criminal. I'm glad you thought of it.

 

AdamDW: The wall of text scared me too, and I wrote it! I almost didn't post cause it looked so intimidating! colgate.gif

 

P.S: Can I also add that 'Driver' out of all games actually has a much more realistic cop system? The inclusion of switching cars, a car wanted level, etc. are all applied in those games (the last 2). I can't believe Rockstar still uses this kind of 'infinite cop' system still. It's better than it was, but still, you've got cops popping up everywhere, and there can be a hundred of them. Then you can kill a hundred of them and they might as well be robots, not people.

Edited by 28RedEyedCrows

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Tony Mozzarelli 80

Yes regarding saving people too, obviously if your members get wasted they die.

But if they run out of ammo or something like that, then depending on their

personality, they may decide to yield, and you would get a call from a gang member.

"sh*t, generic name number 4 has been busted, they're taking him to......."

then a blip would come up on your radar, and you could go bust him out of the cop

car. or perhaps if you didn't manage it, if he was a high level member, you would get

one more chance. say for instance it's the day of his court case, and they are moving

him in a guarded police convoy. You could take a crew, of whichever guys you want.

explosives, snipers, etc and set an ambush at an intersection, in a final heroic attempt

to free him. Fail that time, and you've lost him.

 

Regarding your being a cop idea, that could be great too. If you could choose which

path to take. Maybe you could choose good cop, and rise through the ranks with honesty

and determination, but this would be very hard to do, in that you would need to put

a lot of work in.

 

On the other hand, you can choose bad cop, and lie, cheat, steal your way to the top.

there could be many types of corruption you could engage in. Killing witnesses that hurt

your case. Busting into the evidence room. intimidating crooks, gaining informers.

But this would be hard too. because you too would get investigation stars, and would

have to out-fox the guys from Internal affairs. Perhaps you could take illicit photos of

them and blackmail them. Or you could enter into clandestine deals with prominent

criminals or politicians, to further your career

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Breaking Bohan

R* should not limit what we can and cannot do in an "open" universe!!!

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28RedEyedCrows

Tony: The good cop/bad cop idea is good. Frustrated with the lack of depth in the vigilante missions in this game (and previous), I actually though a good way to introduce good police gameplay, while retaining the criminal element, would be for the next story to involve a cop in the vain of "Training Day" or "Harsh Times" where your character was basically moral, but with an edge. Adding in your decisions of being good or bad would be much better, though my original thought was more along the lines of how the GTA games are now, based around a script. Maybe at the end of the game you could have those choices. As far as a dynamic game goes though, it would all be good. In fact, I vote that the next character BE a "Cop that plays by his own rules!" lol.gif

 

And Amen to Breaking Bohan! biggrin.gif

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sananoutlaw

All this is great, there would be so many decisions to make, and not ones that are set up for you in the first place i.e 'kill _ or _'. Truely taking control for yourself with a lot at stake like the possibility of losing a high ranked member.

 

& what you said about seeing a van over and over, or a ped hanging about tony, it would be great to tag a gang member to it/him/her and maybe recieve a generic text from him when that object/person in within range of something/somewhere you don't want any attention drawn to. You could set up zones (like a circular radius) on the map which could come up only when 'legend' is switched on, on ingame map, incase it makes other things hard to see on the map, and limited to a certain number of zones so the entire city isn't one lol, just high risk areas around racket headquarters/businesses etc... (sorry if last part didn't make sense lol, it's right in my head though)

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Tony Mozzarelli 80

See what you mean but i think it would be better to choose. because if you're a crooked

cop, it would be necessary to lose a lot of the gangster rackets, and elements like that.

so i think it's better if you could choose cop or prominent criminal.

 

I also think it would be great if you could delve deeper into the underworld politics, for

example. Informer calls you and tells you, supplier 'A' is doing a deal in this location

at this time and date. so you can go rob him. if your all wearing disguises, they might

not know it was you. But then you go sell your goods. to Fence 'B' and you better make

sure, that supllier 'A' and Fence'B' are not associated. or 'A' will know you robbed him

and send guys out to look for you, or attack your businesses. and perhaps, if you don't

keep certain informers happy, and their palms well greased. they will become dissatisfied.

and will inform other gangsters about your transactions. so when you're doing a deal, you

might get ambushed.

 

The people you were dealing with might assume you set them up. Same apllies if you have a

high investigation level, and you don't lose your tail. You then go to do a deal, but get ambushed

by cops. Your fence thinks you set him up. and sends guys after you. Or if he trusts you, he will

just lose respect for you and refuse to deal with you again until you make ammends

 

 

 

@ Sananoutlaw. Do you mean have your guys tail the people tailing you, so you would know

which areas are being heavily watched, and then avoid the areas with the most heat?

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28RedEyedCrows

Well, I have to say I'm glad I have gotten so many good responses to this, and that the creativity is flowing. All of your ideas are great. What it sounds like, especially between you sananoutlaw & Tony, is that you're creating the game that GTA probably should have been right after GTA2, and you're piling on to my original hope for where they would take the series. Like I said in the beginning, when GTA was born, it was all about truly being a criminal, mostly doing whatever you wanted, but with odd jobs here and there. Over time it's lost touch with that original creation, for good or bad (depends on who you ask). Now GTA is slowly starting to feel like a different game, possibly due to pressure from the outside. There's nothing wrong with the stories and characters, but I believe they're losing touch with their origin. I don't want it to be as mindless as it used to be, but... It's beginning to feel like two different games, and I especially felt that in this one. Watching something as good and cinematic as Niko's story seems odd when you hear one of the crazy ads on the radio. Both are great, but they don't feel like they belong together as much as they used to. For whatever reason, I still believe that GTA2 was one of the best ones (not counting the graphics). Everything seemed to gel perfectly.

 

I get the 'tagging' idea too. That's cool.

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