wayninja Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 It's official. I was suspicious of it before, but now after a couple more pages it's plainly obvious certain people in this thread have either no concept, or an incredibly bloated concept of what current console hardware is capable of. Either one. There's only so much rendering muscle to throw around at one time. You can't take a block of silver and make it piss gold for an eternity. To think so is ridiculous. How long can you make a block of silver piss gold? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emigrating Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 ...This only proves that R* is just as greedy as MS. It would have been simple to include 2 (or more) and say X amount of HDD space requried to play. If that pisses some non-HDD 360 users off and alienates a certain population, too bad. They didn't do it because it might mean less money... Wrong - Microsoft does not, at this time, allow titles to be licensed and released if they require a HDD to be installed. My guess is their stance on this will change during the course of 2008, but as of right now - it's not allowed. Now, that being said - there is around 2GB's still available on the Xbox 360 GTA IV DVD, so they certainly didn't run out of space. are you sure about that? My understanding is that EVERY game has over a gig of copyright sh*t on it that takes up possible game space Yep, just put the disc in your PC and check the size of it using a reliable utility (or check the filesize of any of the "scene" releases of GTA IV, they're all around 6.4GB and are bit-by-bit copies of the original disc). I've heard rumors about the US release being a full 1GB larger than the European version, but that really doesn't make any sense - either way, that would still leave around 1GB of "free" space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayninja Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 ...This only proves that R* is just as greedy as MS. It would have been simple to include 2 (or more) and say X amount of HDD space requried to play. If that pisses some non-HDD 360 users off and alienates a certain population, too bad. They didn't do it because it might mean less money... Wrong - Microsoft does not, at this time, allow titles to be licensed and released if they require a HDD to be installed. My guess is their stance on this will change during the course of 2008, but as of right now - it's not allowed. Now, that being said - there is around 2GB's still available on the Xbox 360 GTA IV DVD, so they certainly didn't run out of space. are you sure about that? My understanding is that EVERY game has over a gig of copyright sh*t on it that takes up possible game space Yep, just put the disc in your PC and check the size of it using a reliable utility (or check the filesize of any of the "scene" releases of GTA IV, they're all around 6.4GB and are bit-by-bit copies of the original disc). I've heard rumors about the US release being a full 1GB larger than the European version, but that really doesn't make any sense - either way, that would still leave around 1GB of "free" space. I guess what I'm getting at is that the interim solution to 'no space left of the DVD' is not to chuck the console and buy a new one. There are ways of getting around this limitation. It may mean alienating folks with low-end hardware, but so will being left in the console dust. As soon as MS sees they are being threatened by bigger games, they will come up with a solution that doesn't make people want to go buy PS3's, trust me. The problem here isn't that R* wanted to do more and just couldn't fit it in, the problem is that R* wanted to give you taste, and then charge you for the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bblancobrnx Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 so there is 600mb of unused space on the DVD? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bochen74656 Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 ...This only proves that R* is just as greedy as MS. It would have been simple to include 2 (or more) and say X amount of HDD space requried to play. If that pisses some non-HDD 360 users off and alienates a certain population, too bad. They didn't do it because it might mean less money... Wrong - Microsoft does not, at this time, allow titles to be licensed and released if they require a HDD to be installed. My guess is their stance on this will change during the course of 2008, but as of right now - it's not allowed. Now, that being said - there is around 2GB's still available on the Xbox 360 GTA IV DVD, so they certainly didn't run out of space. are you sure about that? My understanding is that EVERY game has over a gig of copyright sh*t on it that takes up possible game space Yep, just put the disc in your PC and check the size of it using a reliable utility (or check the filesize of any of the "scene" releases of GTA IV, they're all around 6.4GB and are bit-by-bit copies of the original disc). I've heard rumors about the US release being a full 1GB larger than the European version, but that really doesn't make any sense - either way, that would still leave around 1GB of "free" space. You have to take into account that the dev at R* knew what the upper cap would be.. So they design LC around it from the bottom up /top down... If it wasn't capped by DVD9 and Rockstar could use up all 25GB, then they would have designed LC to be twice or three times as large to BEGIN WITH... They would have added more buildings with interiors and much more variety of peds. etc... The argument is mute because R* could NOT have possibly not taken into account the inherent limitations of 360 when they were at drawing board... Otherwise if it was only for PS3 they would def. have made the LC much larger and more immersive from the get go.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Mozzarelli 80 Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 Lol i wish the argument was mute Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bblancobrnx Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 A DL DVD is about 8.54gb of space about 7gigs is usable. ok... so there is just over half a gig of unused space? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batroo Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 ...This only proves that R* is just as greedy as MS. It would have been simple to include 2 (or more) and say X amount of HDD space requried to play. If that pisses some non-HDD 360 users off and alienates a certain population, too bad. They didn't do it because it might mean less money... Wrong - Microsoft does not, at this time, allow titles to be licensed and released if they require a HDD to be installed. My guess is their stance on this will change during the course of 2008, but as of right now - it's not allowed. Now, that being said - there is around 2GB's still available on the Xbox 360 GTA IV DVD, so they certainly didn't run out of space. are you sure about that? My understanding is that EVERY game has over a gig of copyright sh*t on it that takes up possible game space Yep, just put the disc in your PC and check the size of it using a reliable utility (or check the filesize of any of the "scene" releases of GTA IV, they're all around 6.4GB and are bit-by-bit copies of the original disc). I've heard rumors about the US release being a full 1GB larger than the European version, but that really doesn't make any sense - either way, that would still leave around 1GB of "free" space. You have to take into account that the dev at R* knew what the upper cap would be.. So they design LC around it from the bottom up /top down... If it wasn't capped by DVD9 and Rockstar could use up all 25GB, then they would have designed LC to be twice or three times as large to BEGIN WITH... They would have added more buildings with interiors and much more variety of peds. etc... The argument is mute because R* could NOT have possibly not taken into account the inherent limitations of 360 when they were at drawing board... Otherwise if it was only for PS3 they would def. have made the LC much larger and more immersive from the get go.. And then you'd probably not have GTA IV till mid 09 to early 2010. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bblancobrnx Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 You have to take into account that the dev at R* knew what the upper cap would be.. So they design LC around it from the bottom up /top down... If it wasn't capped by DVD9 and Rockstar could use up all 25GB, then they would have designed LC to be twice or three times as large to BEGIN WITH... They would have added more buildings with interiors and much more variety of peds. etc... I think BD DL are about 50 gb...25 per layer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emigrating Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 (edited) A DL DVD is about 8.54gb of space about 7gigs is usable. ok... so there is just over half a gig of unused space? No, because his information is wrong. A DVD-5 (i.e. a bog standard one sided single layered disc) can hold 4.7GB of data. A DVD-9 (a single sided dual layered disc) can hold 8.54GB of data. This is all usable. The confusion for some people come from the fact that GB != GiB. 4.7GB == 4.37GiB 8.54GB == 7.95GiB Now, the GTA IV iso image is around 6.4GiB - which leaves 1.55GiB to still be used. Ok, so it's closer to a gig and ahalf than 2GB, but the point I was trying to make is there is indeed space left on the disc. You have to take into account that the dev at R* knew what the upper cap would be.. So they design LC around it from the bottom up /top down... If it wasn't capped by DVD9 and Rockstar could use up all 25GB, then they would have designed LC to be twice or three times as large to BEGIN WITH... They would have added more buildings with interiors and much more variety of peds. etc... The argument is mute because R* could NOT have possibly not taken into account the inherent limitations of 360 when they were at drawing board... Otherwise if it was only for PS3 they would def. have made the LC much larger and more immersive from the get go.. You really don't like Microsoft do you? No matter, the maps and interiors used in GTA IV are a fairly small part of the space used on the DVD so this cap really does not equal a smaller city or less enterable buildings. Have they cut stuff purely to release as DLC later on? Perhaps. It certainly seems like it, but another reason could well be that they ran out of time and couldn't move the releasedate back yet again (due to T2's financial situation). Edited May 27, 2008 by emigrating Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bblancobrnx Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 A DL DVD is about 8.54gb of space about 7gigs is usable. ok... so there is just over half a gig of unused space? No, because his information is wrong. A DVD-5 (i.e. a bog standard one sided single layered disc) can hold 4.7GB of data. A DVD-9 (a single sided dual layered disc) can hold 8.54GB of data. This is all usable. The confusion for some people come from the fact that GB != GiB. 4.7GB == 4.37GiB 8.54GB == 7.95GiB Now, the GTA IV iso image is around 6.4GiB - which leaves 1.55GiB to still be used. Ok, so it's closer to a gig and ahalf than 2GB, but the point I was trying to make is there is indeed space left on the disc. So the iso is a disc image with all of the copyright stuff and EVERYTHING, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bblancobrnx Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 (edited) Have they cut stuff purely to release as DLC later on? Perhaps. It certainly seems like it, but another reason could well be that they ran out of time and couldn't move the releasedate back yet again (due to T2's financial situation). hmmmmm... That does make sense. Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if they did put the game out before they would have otherwise based solely on the impending hostile takeover by EA and the untold millions to be made by releasing the game. Maybe they did "rush" the game in that sense. That is the best argument I have heard for it yet. Especially if there is that much empty space on the disc. You can do quite a lot with almost a gig and a half. Edited May 27, 2008 by bblancobrnx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bochen74656 Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 Have they cut stuff purely to release as DLC later on? Perhaps. It certainly seems like it, but another reason could well be that they ran out of time and couldn't move the releasedate back yet again (due to T2's financial situation). hmmmmm... That does make sense. Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if they did put the game out before they would have otherwise based solely on the impending hostile takeover by EA and the untold millions to be made by releasing the game. Maybe they did "rush" the game in that sense. That is the best argument I have heard for it yet. Especially if there is that much empty space on the disc. You can do quite a lot with almost a gig and a half. Can anyone *confirm* that there are indeed any other xbox360 games LARGER than 6.5GB? Put another way, has there EVEN been a game released on single disc DVD9 for 360 platform that takes us MORE space than 6.5GB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emigrating Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 Have they cut stuff purely to release as DLC later on? Perhaps. It certainly seems like it, but another reason could well be that they ran out of time and couldn't move the releasedate back yet again (due to T2's financial situation). hmmmmm... That does make sense. Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if they did put the game out before they would have otherwise based solely on the impending hostile takeover by EA and the untold millions to be made by releasing the game. Maybe they did "rush" the game in that sense. That is the best argument I have heard for it yet. Especially if there is that much empty space on the disc. You can do quite a lot with almost a gig and a half. Can anyone *confirm* that there are indeed any other xbox360 games LARGER than 6.5GB? Put another way, has there EVEN been a game released on single disc DVD9 for 360 platform that takes us MORE space than 6.5GB? Halo 2 was in the region of 7.6GiB IIRC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bochen74656 Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 Have they cut stuff purely to release as DLC later on? Perhaps. It certainly seems like it, but another reason could well be that they ran out of time and couldn't move the releasedate back yet again (due to T2's financial situation). hmmmmm... That does make sense. Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if they did put the game out before they would have otherwise based solely on the impending hostile takeover by EA and the untold millions to be made by releasing the game. Maybe they did "rush" the game in that sense. That is the best argument I have heard for it yet. Especially if there is that much empty space on the disc. You can do quite a lot with almost a gig and a half. Can anyone *confirm* that there are indeed any other xbox360 games LARGER than 6.5GB? Put another way, has there EVEN been a game released on single disc DVD9 for 360 platform that takes us MORE space than 6.5GB? Halo 2 was in the region of 7.6GiB IIRC How did Halo 3 take up more space than GTAIV? It doesn't seem to have more variety??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emigrating Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 Have they cut stuff purely to release as DLC later on? Perhaps. It certainly seems like it, but another reason could well be that they ran out of time and couldn't move the releasedate back yet again (due to T2's financial situation). hmmmmm... That does make sense. Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if they did put the game out before they would have otherwise based solely on the impending hostile takeover by EA and the untold millions to be made by releasing the game. Maybe they did "rush" the game in that sense. That is the best argument I have heard for it yet. Especially if there is that much empty space on the disc. You can do quite a lot with almost a gig and a half. Can anyone *confirm* that there are indeed any other xbox360 games LARGER than 6.5GB? Put another way, has there EVEN been a game released on single disc DVD9 for 360 platform that takes us MORE space than 6.5GB? Halo 2 was in the region of 7.6GiB IIRC How did Halo 3 take up more space than GTAIV? It doesn't seem to have more variety??? I may be wrong on the size, just had that number stuck in my head for some reason. That being said, you really can't judge a games logical size based on looks (or even gameplay). Let's say for the sake of argument Halo2 is 7.6GiB - that could well be because the Halo2 crew didn't compress their audio as much as GTA IV. Or perhaps their textures are stored as rawdata on the disc. Perhaps the Halo2 dvd includes several GB of video (used in cutscenes) which GTA IV does not as everything is rendered in realtime. If what you're really asking is "Can the Xbox360 access more than 6.5GB in-game from a DVD?" the answer is yes it can. There are plenty of titles around the 7GB mark out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ph3L1z14n0 Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 What nobody seems to realize is that we are not the kids who played SA 4 years ago, we are different today, we are not as impressionable as before, and there was a HUGE and unrealistic expectation for IV, we didn't realized it was just a videogame, those two are some of the reasons why people were dissapointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
movado2 Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 Okay I've said before, I'm NOT one of the haters. I LOVE GTA4, but there are some very frustrating things about it. I don't believe that the issue is black and white here - I think you can still love GTA4 and have legitimate complaints about it. That being said, there are plenty of obvious reasons to assume the game was rushed or half-assed in some ways. And I'm NOT talking about stupid little bullsh*t like fingerless gloves or climbing telephone poles or the lack of planes. I'm talking about obvious things like go-kart tracks and mini golf courses being unused in the game, the lack of clothing places, the same songs over and over on the radio, etc. Most of this stuff has been gone over ad nauseum in these forums, but the icing on the cake is this: One month after the release of the game, we have NOTHING LEFT TO TALK ABOUT on the forums. No more secrets, no more cheats, no more easter eggs, no more anything. It's just the same crap over and over again - there's nothing new to discover. There are only two kinds of posts anymore - one is "Do they have this?" answer: "no". The other is "Hey I just found out _____!" answer: "There was a thread about this a month ago dumbass". Even the official fansite has updated about twice since the game came out. I know this game isn't SA, and I'm fine with that. It's on a much smaller scale and it's more realistic. Fine. But back in the SA days, I would come to these forums and every day there'd be something new and interesting to talk about. Now, not so much. And again, it's not that I don't love the game. The graphics and gameplay are pretty much mindblowing, and the cast of characters is the best yet. But the more time you spend with someone (or something), the more you notice the little things that drive you crazy. You're preaching to a big choir Not one single gta extremists can explain their way out of this one ... Upon information and belief. Why did reviews give this game a 10 and claimed in the same review it was based on a "FINISHED FINAL VERSION RETAIL DISK of GTA IV" given to them by rockstar. They claimed in their reviews the disk that was given to them for review was what the public would buy in days. With that said... IF REVIEWERS ARE GOING TO WRITE A REVIEW AND VALIDATE ROCKSTARS FALSE CLAIMS ABOUT FEATURES CLEARLY NOT IN THE GAME AND COMPOUND THE LIES BY MAKING F A L S E CLAIMS THEMSELVES STATING IN THEIR REVIEW PLAYERS COULD ACCESSED THOSE FEATURES LIKE "RIDE THE CARNIVAL" ONE WHICH IS BTW A COMPLETE FALSEHOOD THEN THEY SHOULD MAN UP AND POST A RETRACTION LIKE ANY CREDIBLE ENTITY WOULD DO. EITHER THEY WERE GIVEN A RIGGED GAME TO REVIEW OR THEY WERE IN ON THE WHOLE DECEPTION! EITHER WAY BY NOT MAKING A CORRECTION THEY HAVE NO CREDIBILITY. AND ANY FANATIC QUOTING A FALSE REVIEW HAS NONE EITHER. If you really want to see if a product delivers before writing a review you buy it like everyone else and only then write your review. You don't review something that a manufacture or anyone sends you because you cant trust that as what everyone will get when they buy it. If you choose to write a review with a manufactures sample then again you man up and if not reduce the review you at least man up. JUST LOOK AT THE XBOX 360 IM SURE WOULD REVIEWERS HAD GONE TO THE STORE AND BOUGHT ONE LIKE EVERYONE ELSE DID INSTEAD OF RATING ONE GIVEN TO THEM TO RATE BY THE MANUFATURE THEY WOULD HAVE AGREED IT WAS A PIECE OF CRAP AND HAD SERIOUS PROBLEMS. YOU MAY BE IN THE MINORITY AND NOT LIKE THIS STATEMENT BUT EVERYONE KNOWS THE ROOF IS IN THE PUDDING OR IN THE XBOX 360 CASE THE PRESS RELEASE AND THEIR ADMITTAL IT WAS DEFECTIVE AND THEY WOULD FIX AND EXTEND THE WARRANTY. FOR EVERYONE WHO ACCEPTS EVEN CRAP SPOON FED TO THEM AS LONG AS THE TASTE IS DISGUISED WITH HONEY SO YOU CAN TURN A BLIND EYE TO THE TRUTH I SAY MAN UP TOO. DON'T COMPLAIN WHEN PEOPLE DON'T LIKE CRAP AND EXPRESS IT. WHAT THEY ARE DOING IS NOT BITCHING, THE SPOON FED COMPLAINING ABOUT THEM IS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayninja Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 THE ROOF IS IN THE PUDDING OMG, RUNZ, PUDDING EVERYWHERE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
botaggs1 Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 You can thank Microsoft and DLC for this, the death of GTA is being witnessed as we speak.Thanks a bunch MS, ya dicks. That probably had to be the most ignoriant, piece of sh*t, fanboyish thing I have ever heard on this fourm. I dont f*ckin understand. The game has been out for a month now and theres still little boys infecting this fourm with these types of things. F*ckin idiot. Why would you say something like that when you dont have suffiant info to back up that ignoriant statment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottieMafiaz Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 THE ROOF IS IN THE PUDDING Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The BigSlick Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 Ok a lot of people defend the game by saying "its the GTA 3 of the ps3" and how they had to start from scratch. Ok fair enough, they did an amazing job with the city. But I definately think, 4 years is enough time to keep the stuff SA had and extra. The excuse is, is that they took the stuff out becuase its "the GTA 3 of the next gen consoles" but come on, thats crap, you do not go backwards and put the same stuff you ALREADY had a few years later. The aim is to aim forwards and add from that. One bad thing about GTA 4 (and I know im gonna get bashed) is that its a bit to realistic for my liking. Firstly the cars. They are to hard to drive. I miss going 200mph and doing sharp turns. If I wan't a realistic driving expiriance, il get in my own car. The hole point of video games is to escape realism and have a fun time and I think many titles forget that. In sports games fine, but not in a game like GTA. Thats just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
movado2 Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 Not so much a flaw in the engine. The game just doesn't have the ability to "remember" enough stuff... If you shoot enough bullet holes at a car you will eventually see the first bullet holes dissappear... This happens to EVERY game but in GTAIV the tolerance level is extremely low... I was ramming into peds on the streets with my FIB car... I turn around and they are GONE! But they were dead 2 seconds ago!!!! The game "erases" hurt or dead people almost instantly if you don't look at them long enough.... So as long as you keep a direct LINE OF SIGHT they will not "vanish" (R* don't want us to see stuff "dissappear into thin air" although it happens all the time when you are not looking) Im just wondering... Can some one explain this... So how in a hospital rampage for example you wait and gun down anything that comes through the door including the noose. Their guns show orange and their are not moving but uou shoot them point blank for example and while your fighting waves and waves of other spawning LEOs the ones I previously mentioned get up do a Dancing with the stars spin in shoot you with their lazer guided bullets or just stumble away. And why is it boats pull a reverse copperfield and pop up when you step one foot in the water and disappear when you step one foot in land. And when you get in the only one there before you take the controlls 5 more instantly pop op next to you. I almost forgot. There are no magical spike strips? If your outrunning the cops and you know for a fact there are none on your radar near you including choppers and your almost out of the circle how do they pop your tire? They need to fix how some LEOs can pop up behind you or near you and not even be showing on the radar and when you turn to shott that one swarms magically just appear. What topps the cake is all this can happen inside a closed garage while you're against a wall with only one entrance. Come on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bblancobrnx Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 After reading A LOT of online information I see that XBOX 360 has a much better compression technique and that is how they can fit so much game on a DVD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
movado2 Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 (edited) THE ROOF IS IN THE PUDDING OMG, RUNZ, PUDDING EVERYWHERE! I've seen responses like yours before so it comes as no surprise. Admit it... You were probably the one who started all those posts titled "Massive Explosions", "Carjackings", "Blowing up Choppers", "And As Good As The Hype" and "The Fat Woman Coming Through the TV" Once you get off of rockstars pisswasser try posting something more authentic or at least debating the facts. Or on the other hand go do what your good at and continue cock riding and move along... Edited May 27, 2008 by movado2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dvs98 Posted May 27, 2008 Share Posted May 27, 2008 "If it was coded and optimized just for PS3 just think how much more glorious Liberty City could be at 25GB! with Cell architecture and motion sensitive controllers!" I disagree the only difference would have been R* could leave the video and audio decompressed big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
movado2 Posted May 28, 2008 Share Posted May 28, 2008 THE ROOF IS IN THE PUDDING I don't know what your trying to say. Until then I'll hold off on assumptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bblancobrnx Posted May 28, 2008 Share Posted May 28, 2008 THE ROOF IS IN THE PUDDING I don't know what your trying to say. Until then I'll hold off on assumptions. do you mean the proof is in the pudding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
movado2 Posted May 28, 2008 Share Posted May 28, 2008 THE ROOF IS IN THE PUDDING I don't know what your trying to say. Until then I'll hold off on assumptions. do you mean the proof is in the pudding? Is that what the original post and or my response was about? If thats what you or anyone thinks theres a job waiting for you in politics diverting attention from the facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayninja Posted May 28, 2008 Share Posted May 28, 2008 (edited) THE ROOF IS IN THE PUDDING OMG, RUNZ, PUDDING EVERYWHERE! I don't know what your trying to say. Until then I'll hold off on assumptions. do you mean the proof is in the pudding? Is that what the original post and or my response was about? If thats what you or anyone thinks theres a job waiting for you in politics diverting attention from the facts. Quit trying to scare us with your pudding tsunami. Edited May 28, 2008 by wayninja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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