Physics fidelity

[SCLASS]

Euphoria is obviously a big addition to the GTA universe....i look forward to running some people over, crashes and cutting a chopper 'in two' ( hard to believe ! )....

 

I wonder though, and id like to be proved wrong, can the game engine REALLY provide a different outcome for every situation ?, lets say I knock someone down at 5 mph - will they fall back a few feet and reach out in a particular way differently than if I knock them down at 20 ?

 

Perhaps that was too obvious - I would like to know if there will be a infinite number of animations by characters, or will I be seeing perhaps only 10/15 outcomes for a given scenario ?

 

Something that does give encouragement is the ped who in the 4 th trailer falls down the stairs, quite amazing. I suppose I can barely believe that this game is almost real life on a disc - seriously a big step forward if it lives up to expectations....

[FrozenFire]

I doubt EVERY SINGLE thing will be different, after millions of people play this game for several years straight.

 

But yeah, It's a huge improvement from ragdoll physics. With ragdoll, if you shot a ped like in the fourth trailer, he would fall back, and slide down the stairs on his back. That's how everything works with ragdoll. They instantly turn to jello. So this is going to be a joy to play.

 

I'm especially interested in the whole "Hanging onto ledges" thing.

When I see a guy fall, and grab onto a ledge, it will be a pleasure to shoot him off.

[mac915]

Euphoria creates the animations on the fly. There are absolutely no canned animations so everything you do will be different. Even if you do the same thing(run into a ped 5 miles per hour twice for example), there is always the possibility it will be different depending on any number of variables, where you hit them, what angle you hit them at, etc.

[SCLASS]

aah , what If I shoot said guy in the hand....if he looked at his stump in dismay id be amazed !

 

Mac - its incredible that there is the power to do this, why has this not been done before...it would of course be easier in a FPS game.

[mrernie]

aah , what If I shoot said guy in the hand....if he looked at his stump in dismay id be amazed !

 

Mac - its incredible that there is the power to do this, why has this not been done before...it would of course be easier in a FPS game.

Stump? :S

 

His hand wont come off...

[SCLASS]

im just kiddin mate.....go with the flow...

[chitoryu12]

No worries. I've checked out Euphoria and own the Learner's Edition of its movie-making counterpart, Endorphin. When you get down to it, even in real life there's only so many ways for events to play out. If someone falls off a balcony, they can grab on with two hands, grab with one hand, lose grip on one hand, get the other hand up, pull themselves up, fall, or just fail to grab on. There can't be an infinite number of outcomes, but since the animation is done by the physics engine itself, details will be different.

 

Now, it's obvious that a 5 MPH hit-and-run will be a lot different from 20 MPH. At five, the person will likely stumble backward and grab the nearest object to steady himself (In the Force Unleashed trailers, enemies even grabbed each other when falling or being lifted by the Force, so pedestrians may even steady themselves on each other). At twenty, you'll definately knock them down or send them flying into other objects. Because Euphoria picks an outcome basically at random when it detects a certain motion and impact, a falling person will steady himself with whatever he gets to first. If the objects are both equidistant from the person, he will randomly grab one. It all depends on where they go and what the system decides.

[Ace ATL 33]

for me, this is the best thing about GTA4. Go to youtube and watch some euphoria videos. Its incredible. Its actually the next step of ragdoll physics. Its better than ragdoll. The animations dont just turn into jelly...(like they did in saints row)...they actually react to an extint. Its called biomachanical AI. Seriously, do some research on it...its really interesting and to me one of the best things to ever happen to video games.

[FrozenFire]

for me, this is the best thing about GTA4. Go to youtube and watch some euphoria videos. Its incredible. Its actually the next step of ragdoll physics. Its better than ragdoll. The animations dont just turn into jelly...(like they did in saints row)...they actually react to an extint. Its called biomachanical AI. Seriously, do some research on it...its really interesting and to me one of the best things to ever happen to video games.

The Youtube videos aren't a fully accurate depiction of how it will appear in GTA IV. Many of them (Yes, even the most popular ones) are low quality animation, especially when compared to what Rockstar will inevitably use.

[mista morino]

aah , what If I shoot said guy in the hand....if he looked at his stump in dismay id be amazed !

 

Mac  - its incredible that there is the power to do this, why has this not been done before...it would of course be easier in a FPS game.

Stump? :S

 

His hand wont come off...

Are you sure about that Merny ? I mean that feature of limbs going off was suppose to be included in GTA3 but they cut it off because they didn't want to put more controversy in the game after the 9/11 attacks. But it'S now 7 years later, maybe they'll include it this time around. When you think about it the heads have been exploding since Vice City , so what is so bad about an arm or a hand flying off, or a leg being cut from the knee down ?

[K^2]

I wonder though, and id like to be proved wrong, can the game engine REALLY provide a different outcome for every situation ?, lets say I knock someone down at 5 mph - will they fall back a few feet and reach out in a particular way differently than if I knock them down at 20 ?

 

Perhaps that was too obvious - I would like to know if there will be a infinite number of animations by characters, or will I be seeing perhaps only 10/15 outcomes for a given scenario ?

There are a nearly infinite number of outcomes, though, many will look rather similar. It's just like in a real life. If you fall face down on the ground, you don't really have too many options on how to do that, but your final pose will never be quite the same each time. So it isn't limited by the number of animations, like before, but rather by the situation. Just how many different ways can it play out.

[mrernie]

aah , what If I shoot said guy in the hand....if he looked at his stump in dismay id be amazed !

 

Mac  - its incredible that there is the power to do this, why has this not been done before...it would of course be easier in a FPS game.

Stump? :S

 

His hand wont come off...

Are you sure about that Merny ? I mean that feature of limbs going off was suppose to be included in GTA3 but they cut it off because they didn't want to put more controversy in the game after the 9/11 attacks. But it'S now 7 years later, maybe they'll include it this time around. When you think about it the heads have been exploding since Vice City , so what is so bad about an arm or a hand flying off, or a leg being cut from the knee down ?

First of all, its mrernie.

 

Secondly, Rockstar have clearly gone for realism in this game. I expect that heads won't be 'exploding'. They say if you shoot somebody in the chest, they hold their wound and collapse to the floor. Well, maybe if you shoot their hand they will hold it in pain or something, I don't know. Its just too comic and cartoony if their hand flies off and they look at the stump. I personally hope they don't do it so comically.

 

However, there may be a cheat to enable this like there was on past games I think.

[pewpt0wn]

Here a video that can show somewhat like the euphoria engine will be like.

Although some of it looks about right some of it is also a bit far fetched.

 

 

 

also you can read up on this

http://www.naturalmotion.com/euphoria.htm

Edited April 3, 2008 by pewpt0wn

[MalR]

 

I wonder though, and id like to be proved wrong, can the game engine REALLY provide a different outcome for every situation ?, lets say I knock someone down at 5 mph - will they fall back a few feet and reach out in a particular way differently than if I knock them down at 20 ?

 

  Perhaps that was too obvious - I would like to know if there will be a infinite number of animations by characters, or will I be seeing perhaps only 10/15 outcomes for a given scenario ?

Yes, duh, if you hit something at five miles an hour, it won't move nearly as far as 20. Physics have been like that ever since the Source engine came out years ago.

 

And 10/15 outcomes? No. There are 0 pre-made outcomes. Endorphin creates the animation while it happens, through physics and "Animation AI". It's programmed to know how the body would react, but it's not given an exact per-written animation on how the body would react, therefore it uses the physics information combined with its technology to create something exactly how a human would react to the exact situation it's in.

 

Basically, it will be half-way to impossible to re-create something you've done once.

 

Well, it'l be as possible to do that in GTA4, as it would be in real life.

 

(because it works like real life)

 

You're obviously new to physics based gamess, eh?

 

[DrAKeN3D]

People who tried the Learning Edition of Endorphin will understand what's gonna happen.

 

If you shoot someone on the chest, the physics engine tells the caracter to pull their hands to its chest and while calculating the speed and direction of the projectile... the rest is left to gravity. So animation are done on the fly... the only way an animation will look alike is if you repeat the same variables ... speed, direction, impact, position of the body when hit...

 

its that "simple" !

[perspextive]

Theres totally different reactions for everything, since it's being powered by euphoria each NPC is given their own skeletal stucture and nervous system, they try to defend themselves or run or whatever it may be- reacting to any items in the world that are thrown their way.

 

For instance, that 20 mile an hour car hit would send a civilian over your hood - but it was previously mentioned that if you eased your car up towards a pedestrian, they would put their arms out onto the car hood and yell and curse at you or something.

[SCLASS]

No Mal, I know of the capability of the systemm, at least the 'on paper' capability. I suppose I am playing it safe by assuming that full integration of such a system in a open world seems a little hard to believe. With animations not being pre rendered, the AI is going to have to work overtime with each ped.

 

Using the 5 mph example, if a railing was behind him/her, would that ped 'know' of it and try to reach for it - even if it was behind it.

 

If one throws a grenade into a crowd of say 8/9 people, will the engine try to 'cheat' and perhaps animate a few of them the same way ? to save a few CPU cycles....Im just playin devils advocate.....

[MalR]

No Mal, I know of the capability of the systemm, at least the 'on paper' capability. I suppose I am playing it safe by assuming that full integration of such a system in a open world seems a little hard to believe. With animations not being pre rendered, the AI is going to have to work overtime with each ped.

 

Using the 5 mph example, if a railing was behind him/her, would that ped 'know' of it and try to reach for it - even if it was behind it.

 

If one throws a grenade into a crowd of say 8/9 people, will the engine try to 'cheat' and perhaps animate a few of them the same way ? to save a few CPU cycles....Im just playin devils advocate.....

360 has 3 cores running at 3.6 GHz.

 

Ps3 has six.

 

3 at that speed, is plenty enough to control euphoria to the amounts needed in GTA4.

 

About the rail, if I'm hearing you right, that's not what Euphoria does. The ped knowing whether or not the rail was there would just depend on the AI of the game. Now if the AI made the ped know the rail was there, it would be up to Euphoria to decide whether or not the ped grabs it, after the AI told him to jump for it.

 

If that's not too confusing.

[SCLASS]

I spose Im just amazed that something like a 'PhysX' hardware unit is not needed - as in PC's - btw , did that ever come out, and if so , did any dev actually make use of it/ require it in a game ....?

[MalR]

 

I spose Im just amazed that something like a 'PhysX' hardware unit is not needed - as in PC's - btw , did that ever come out, and if so , did any dev actually make use of it/ require it in a game ....?

A physics card? Well I know they're out there but I donno how popular they are. Basically all they are anyway is an addon to the main CPU for a particular action.

 

But PS3's and 360's processors are already well strong enough to support it, which is why Ps3 and 360 can pull off outstanding graphics with their average graphics cards, because Graphics cards are also just addons to the main CPU.

 

 

Basically, if you have a strong enough processor, you don't need anything but RAM and that processor.

[SCLASS]

I suppose Iv been on a downer regarding consoles after spending too much time on the PC thread....there's some real snobs there !!!

[MalR]

 

I suppose Iv been on a downer regarding consoles after spending too much time on the PC thread....there's some real snobs there !!!

PC gamers think they're the superior race because they can put 1000 dollar graphics cards in their PCs.

 

When we get thousand dollar processors in our consoles for 350/400 bucks.

 

Processors > graphics cards

 

4 core processors, running at 3.2 GHz cost around 1,500 dollars in the PC world.

 

360 has a 3 core at 3.6, PS3 has an eight core at that.

 

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/Se...p?EdpNo=3720514

 

4 core, for 1,500 dollars.

 

PS3/360 with processor better/equivalent to that?

 

400ish bucks.

 

People underestimate the power of the current console gen wayyy too much.

[SCLASS]

Hey I hear ya, sick to death of hearing consoles being called 'toys' by the PC thread....yes I will stop visiting then

[MalR]

Hey I hear ya, sick to death of hearing consoles being called 'toys' by the PC thread....yes I will stop visiting then

Yeahh I used to be a PC gamer myself, till I realized how expensive it is, and tedious.

 

Playing games on PC tends to be more work than fun. Compatibility problems, fixes, patches, corrupt files, installing, re-installing, versions, settings, buying more and more hardware, etc.

 

The only upside it has is mods. But then again, mods can turn out to be the most annoying work ever.

[JonnyVercetti]

 

 

That one i think is better then the other ones shown.

[gibbs1189]

I doubt EVERY SINGLE thing will be different, after millions of people play this game for several years straight.

 

But yeah, It's a huge improvement from ragdoll physics. With ragdoll, if you shot a ped like in the fourth trailer, he would fall back, and slide down the stairs on his back. That's how everything works with ragdoll. They instantly turn to jello. So this is going to be a joy to play.

 

I'm especially interested in the whole "Hanging onto ledges" thing.

When I see a guy fall, and grab onto a ledge, it will be a pleasure to shoot him off.

As a matter of fact, yes, everything will be completly different for everyone, all the time. Euphoria creates animations on the fly and wont repeat the same one twice. It simulates bone, muscle and nervous systems, so each and every reaction in game will be different, even if it is only slightly. As for the whole hanging on to ledges thing, why shoot them and end their suffering when you can watch them struggle to hold on for dear life, but ultimatly plummet to their death?

[SCLASS]

ok gibbs, easy boy

[RONIN1191]

aah , what If I shoot said guy in the hand....if he looked at his stump in dismay id be amazed !

 

Mac  - its incredible that there is the power to do this, why has this not been done before...it would of course be easier in a FPS game.

Stump? :S

 

His hand wont come off...

Are you sure about that Merny ? I mean that feature of limbs going off was suppose to be included in GTA3 but they cut it off because they didn't want to put more controversy in the game after the 9/11 attacks. But it'S now 7 years later, maybe they'll include it this time around. When you think about it the heads have been exploding since Vice City , so what is so bad about an arm or a hand flying off, or a leg being cut from the knee down ?

The cheat code was available to blow limbs off...that was pretty cool to see a couple dozen arms and legs rollin down a hill...lol

 

This was in III.

[Chukkles]

Euphoria is obviously a big addition to the GTA universe....i look forward to running some people over, crashes and cutting a chopper 'in two' ( hard to believe ! )....

 

I wonder though, and id like to be proved wrong, can the game engine REALLY provide a different outcome for every situation ?, lets say I knock someone down at 5 mph - will they fall back a few feet and reach out in a particular way differently than if I knock them down at 20 ?

 

Perhaps that was too obvious - I would like to know if there will be a infinite number of animations by characters, or will I be seeing perhaps only 10/15 outcomes for a given scenario ?

 

Something that does give encouragement is the ped who in the 4 th trailer falls down the stairs, quite amazing. I suppose I can barely believe that this game is almost real life on a disc - seriously a big step forward if it lives up to expectations....

CAn you imagine how people will fall from the taller buildings, flipping and spinning through the air.

The bit with the stairs impressed me too

 

Not sure how you will cut a chopper in 2, but if the destruction is really that detailed I would love to cut a car in 2 with the chopper rotors.

[SCLASS]

I suppose there is no reason why the physics engine would not model a blade of a certain hardness ( and modelled at the same hardness ) moving at X mph to go through a another object.

 

It just goes to show the sheer depth that has gone into the engine. I mean, forget about the story, just give me a Comet , a ped and a gun and id have fun for hours....