The HDTV topic

[Otter]

 

 

 

HDTV can be confusing. In this case, a little misinformation goes a long way. I see a lot of that here on a daily basis, so I figured I’d type up what I know, and throw it into a topic. Who am I, you may ask. I work as professional videographer/editor. That said, I'm no authority - anyone who claims to be is either a really smart dude, or too self assured to take seriously. In this topic, I want to range from downright layman's terms to advanced discussions, so no question is too simple or too advanced. Wide open.

 

Feel free to ask questions and I will update this post regularly to address them. It's a little sparse at the moment, but I figured I'd get the discussion rolling so we can nail down specific questions/myths/troubleshooting. If you want something added, post it in this thread, or PM me. Cheers!

 

 

Contributers: (Thanks, guys)

Sixdust

PSXtreme

 

 

 

 

 

 

High Definition Video

 

What is HDTV? What’s the difference between HD and SD?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

High Definition TV is video stored and displayed at a higher definition (higher resolution, color definition and audio bandwidth) than SD. (Standard definition video)

SD video is 720x480 (NTSC) or anything in the same ballpark. Generally speaking, SD broadcasts are interlaced, but 480p (sometimes referred to as “ED,” 640x480) is an ASTC standard. This is typical TV, and DVD.

 

So, that's exactly what it boils down to - more pixels per square inch - if we're talking about the same sized display. Furthermore, the dimensions of 720p and 1080p screens are exactly the same - 16:9 - whereas 480i TVs, for the most part, are 4:3.

 

 

 

HD comes in three prominent flavors, listed by the vertical resolution, or lines:

 

720p (the p stands for progressive)

1080i (the I stands for interlaced)

1080p

 

 

720p 16:9

 

720p is a broadcast standard for many networks. As a progressive framerate, each frame consists of 1280x720 square pixels.

There are different flavors of temporal resolution (frame rate) depending on where you live and what you’re watching. It’s often displayed directly after the 720p. For example, watching a 30 frame per second TV show, you’ll see 720p30. Or, for smoother motion, some sports broadcasts will use 60 full frames per second: 720p60.

 

1080i 16:9

 

1080i is also a broadcast standard for sports, some news networks, and a few others. As the image is interlaced you will only receive half of the vertical resolution per half a frame. Tongue tied? You bet.

Each frame consists of two fields, one played directly after the other. They fit together in a comb-like pattern that produces the entire frame.

Therefore, 1080i30 will provide 60 fields per second, to a degree, matching the temporal resolution of 720p60. However, as these fields only consist of 1920x540 square pixels, you’re losing vertical resolution compared to 720p.

Using the ASTC standard, 1080i60, a 1080p30 signal can be achieved.

The bottom line – if you have a 720p monitor, you have little use for 1080i.

 

1080p 16:9

 

1080p is currently the holy grail of home televisions. A full, progressive scan image like 720p, but even higher resolution.

Currently, the only drawback to 1080p is broadcast – at this time, the ASTC standard limits the frame rate to 30fps.

 

The Future

 

Digital Cinema is shot at a higher resolution than HDTV. When we see devices that display these resolutions, and media to play on them, is a few years off to be sure.

 

2K 2048 × 1556

4K 4096 x 3112

 

Currently, all us indy producers are looking forward to project Scarlet.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Digital_Cinema_Camera_Company)

 

 

What HD sources are there?

------------------------------------

There are plenty of ways to get HD content onto your TV.

 

- Broadcast cable

- FTA networks

- Blu-Ray

- Digital Video

- Videogames

 

 

 

 

High Definition Televisions, Monitors and Projectors

 

 

What types of HDTVs are there?

-----------------------------------------

I’ll expand this later. For now, here’s a list of common and newer displays.

 

- Plasma

- DLP

- LCD

- CRT

- OLED

 

FAQs

-----------

 

What is response time?

Most TVs will offer a refresh rate, grey to grey, of 8ms. Seeing as how this is technically 125"fps," a higher refresh rate becomes negligible at this point for anything 60fps and below. Don't get hung up on refresh rates, as modern LCDs have really surpassed any limitations. As PSXtreme said: they're overrated.

 

What is ghosting?

Ghosting is the result of a high response time. As such, it's not really an issue anymore.

 

What is cd/m2?

This is a measurement for luminance, or in layman's terms, how bright the display. It is listed as candelas per square meter, and the higher, the brighter.

 

 

 

HDTV Myths

-----------------

 

Bigger is worse.

This is leftover garbage from the early days of home theater. Anyone who has ever watched a DVD projected against the wall, 10 feet wide, knows that bigger is awesome.

The glaring drawback to a large HDTV is broadcast SD television. It looks crappy. It will look as crappy on a 40” display as it does on a 100” display, but the bigger screen also multiplies the grossness factor.

DVDs have their own artifacts to worry about – but the grossness is negligible if you use a clever upconverter or your PC to play the video.

 

1080i is smoother than 720p

Unless the technobabble listed earlier was lost on you, this should already be apparent. 720p is capable of being broadcast and displayed at 60fps – every bit as smooth as 1080i30.

 

 

 

 

Links & Additional Information - Thanks, Sixdust

--------------------------------------

 

What is Aspect Ratio? [They forgot 16:10(8:5), the aspect ratio of a computer widescreen LCD]

What is Hdmi?

What is component Video connections? (Red, Blue, Green)

What is composite video?(older technology)

What is VGA?

For those who do not know, VGA is able to output past 1080p depending on what type of Panel an LCD is. Also, old CRT computer monitors are usually HD. That is right, the resolutions are 4:3 though, but they are able to handle HD signals. Some monitors output 1600x1200 through VGA cable.

What is a DVI connetion? DVI is digital, incorporating HDCP as well.

What is HDCP?

What is Displayport? (Newest digital connection)

 

Also, when looking at specifications of a HDTV, it is good to have a built in tuner [so you can watch over the air channels. The bigger a contrast ratio, the better. Generally, Plasma has a much great contrast ration than LCD. Ex. [(3000:1)>(700:1)] Built in speakers on most HDTV's suck.

 

 

What is burn-in?

 

Burn in is mostly found on Plasma televisions. Basically, if the same image stays on the screen for a long time, it gets "burned in", meaning that even if the video source is changed, the burned in image remains. Usually goes away after a few hours of rest.

What is a viewing angle?

 

Viewing angle basically tells you how well you will be able to watch the tv from various angles around the tv. Based on a 180 degree scale, (the other 180 being behind the screen). 178 degrees is basically considered the best, both horizontally and vertically because the last 2 degrees are not possible to be used do to you basically looking at the tv sideways.

 

 

(to be sorted later)

Edited March 3, 2008 by Otter

[xtal256]

Very good explanation, Otter. My brother recently got a HD set top box so i can relate to what you are talking about. I already knew about p and i but i didn't realize that interlaced was broadcast at 1/2 speed (one 1/2 per frame). I assumed that since it only has to transmit every second line, it would take less time and so could transmit both images in the time it takes to transmit one progressive scan. Now i realize why 1080p is better than 1080i.

One thing i don't like about the whole HD hype is that there is different resolutions. Soon, they will have higher and higher resolutions, then what will they call that? super HD? then ultra HD? What do they define as high.

[Otter]

I hear you.

 

I think the next stage will be the other two resolutions I posted - 2K and 4K. This is, of course, if we don't have flying cars and holograms by then.

[Picolini]

Nice post, very informative. Hopefully it'll stick around the front here so people will find it easier.

[Forfit]

I know none of us here are as dumb as some of the customers i've met, but when i worked at Best Buy, and we offered them the DirectTV HD service package thing, they would always refuse it thinking we were just trying to rip them off and make them purchase something they don't need, they just wanted the TV. The next week they would bring back the TV complaining about the terrible picture quality as compared to what was being demonstrated in the store. We tried to explain to customers over and over that you need an HD signal to get Live HD programming. Yeah, and then they would blame us, even though we told them in the first place.

[Ronnyboy]

This is great info. I own a 52'' 1080i TV, not sure what it is though. I think it is plasma.

 

Anyway, my math teacher is looking for a new TV for her living room. She wants one around 40'' and HD. Now which one is the best for long usage over a period of time? I know she wants 1080p because her son (good friend of mine) has a PS3 and they want full quality when watching Blu-Ray movies.

 

Any help on this?

[Otter]

I'd go with a Bravia LCD. They consistently blow me away.

[derty]

 

The glaring drawback to a large HDTV is broadcast SD television. It looks crappy. It will look as crappy on a 40” display as it does on a 100” display, but the bigger screen also multiplies the grossness factor.

 

The same is true for HD though. I don't think it is a misconception.

1280 lines across, right? Well, make them 1280 lines on a 10 foot screen and look at that mess. The lines get

bigger, the pixels become more noticable, right??? no?? Am I confused?

 

Otherwise, awesome little type up, there, but I just can't see how bigger the screen + closer you sit

does not break any picture, at any resolution

[Otter]

In the case of 1080p, you're looking at nearly 2000 pixels across.

 

Pixels aren't the problem. The human eye can deal with pixels...almost as if they aren't there. What causes the problem is a low definition image (low resolution, low color bandwidth) being displayed on a high performance device with fixed pixels - it has to stretch and contort the image to fit it's native resolution - this, counter intuitively maybe, makes the image appear blurry.

 

You can check it out yourself if you own an LCD pc monitor. Play any videogame at a resolution less than your monitor's resolution, and the blurriness is unmistakable.

 

I had a setup like this for a few years back in college.

 

 

SD projector, was still super sexy. Now, imagine that at 16x the resolution. Even at 720p, 4x the resolution, that means I could literally fill that wall with an HD image, with no difference in definition per square inch.

 

EDIT - Ooh, additionally, I'd like to point out that most new movie theaters are digital. And while the high end ones are 4K, I believe the majority of digital theaters are 2K.

Edited February 26, 2008 by Otter

[cold fusion 33]

Im have a small question:

Does this mean that 720p has more pixels pqs (Per square inch) the a 480i screen? And 1080i/ 1080p has more pixels psq than 720? Is that all it boils down to? And will the dimensions on a 1080 screen be different to that of a 720?

Thanks

CF33

[Otter]

That's exactly what it boils down to - more pixels per square inch - if we're talking about the same sized display.

 

The dimensions of 720p and 1080p screens are exactly the same - 16:9 - whereas 480i TVs, for the most part, are 4:3.

 

 

 

 

The thing about 480i pixels is that they aren't square, they're anamorphic. This leads to some confusion over 4:3, 16:9, etc. To compound this, 480 pixels can be stretched anamorphically, creating what we all used to call "true 16:9."

[cold fusion 33]

Ahhh I see now .

Thankyou very much for that explaination, I have been trying to work out the most logical explaination to it for some time now .

CF33

[Otter]

No worries. I added that to the main post.

 

Guys, let me know if you see any glaring mistakes. I had one big one, that I just caught - the 1080 in 1080p stands for vertical resolution. not horizontal.

[Seddo]

Great work on the topic Otter, you've cleared up quite a few things for me now .

[xtal256]

Pixels aren't the problem. The human eye can deal with pixels...almost as if they aren't there. What causes the problem is a low definition image (low resolution, low color bandwidth) being displayed on a high performance device with fixed pixels - it has to stretch and contort the image to fit it's native resolution - this, counter intuitively maybe, makes the image appear blurry.

That's what happened to me. I have an LCD tv, 720p, so it's pretty much HD (even though i watch SD on it). The tv itself only has an analogue tuner so i got a digital set top box/HDD recorder. But it doesn't know that my tv is 720 (and i don't think u can change the res of the stb) so i get blurry lines. Some would call this 'antialiasing' but i just think it looks blurry.

[Otter]

That's an important thing to know - Digital boxes come in all sorts of flavors as well, mainly SD or HD.

 

[Sixdust]

What is Aspect Ratio? [They forgot 16:10(8:5), the aspect ratio of a computer widescreen LCD]

What is Hdmi?

What is component Video connections? (Red, Blue, Green)

What is composite video?(older technology)

What is VGA?

For those who do not know, VGA is able to output past 1080p depending on what type of Panel an LCD is. Also, old CRT computer monitors are usually HD. That is right, the resolutions are 4:3 though, but they are able to handle HD signals. Some monitors output 1600x1200 through VGA cable.

What is a DVI connetion? DVI is digital, incorporating HDCP as well.

What is HDCP?

What is Displayport? (Newest digital connection)

 

Also, when looking at specifications of a HDTV, it is good to have a built in tuner [so you can watch over the air channels. The bigger a contrast ratio, the better. Generally, Plasma has a much great contrast ration than LCD. Ex. [(3000:1)>(700:1)] Built in speakers on most HDTV's suck.

Response time

 

The smaller the number, the better the panel for things with alot of frames per second such as gaming or action movies. Anything less than 8ms is good, anything less than 5ms is better, and 2ms seems to be the least. The higher the number, the more likely, ghosting is to occur.

What is ghosting?

 

A problem in LCD screens when tiny pixels creating the image take time to switch on and off and can't do it fast enough. The problem, widely recognized as the main drawback of LCD screens, is apparent in fast moving objects such as tennis balls, but even slower moving images get fuzzy. This can happen especially when the device is exposed to cold for long periods of time. This problem is usually not apparent on modern LCD screens.

What is burn-in?

 

Burn in is mostly found on Plasma televisions. Basically, if the same image stays on the screen for a long time, it gets "burned in", meaning that even if the video source is changed, the burned in image remains. Usually goes away after a few hours of rest.

What is a viewing angle?

 

Viewing angle basically tells you how well you will be able to watch the tv from various angles around the tv. Based on a 180 degree scale, (the other 180 being behind the screen). 178 degrees is basically considered the best, both horizontally and vertically because the last 2 degrees are not possible to be used do to you basically looking at the tv sideways.

What is brightness and what is cd/m2 for?

 

In layman's terms, higher number is better for a better image.

Edited February 26, 2008 by Sixdust

[Otter]

Thanks Six. I added that stuff to the first post.

[GTA3Freak-2001]

Pixels aren't the problem.  The human eye can deal with pixels...almost as if they aren't there.  What causes the problem is a low definition image (low resolution, low color bandwidth) being displayed on a high performance device with fixed pixels - it has to stretch and contort the image to fit it's native resolution - this, counter intuitively maybe, makes the image appear blurry.

That's what happened to me. I have an LCD tv, 720p, so it's pretty much HD (even though i watch SD on it). The tv itself only has an analogue tuner so i got a digital set top box/HDD recorder. But it doesn't know that my tv is 720 (and i don't think u can change the res of the stb) so i get blurry lines. Some would call this 'antialiasing' but i just think it looks blurry.

That would be because you have a SD Digital Tuner that only does probably 480i/480p, to get 720p you'd need to buy a HD Digital Tuner.

[Sixdust]

 

Thanks Six.  I added that stuff to the first post.

Glad to help, I think I made a spelling error on the DVI connection hyperlink, fyi.

 

Also,

What is a hot/dead/stuck pixel?

As seen in this image, panels consist of the RGB spectrum, otherwise known as Red, Green, Blue. (just like the component cables) These pixels alternate to make various colors just like the real world primary colors do. Sometimes one or more pixels is damaged slightly which could be a symptom to exchange the tv, or to repair it oneself using massage. As seen above, the black one is dead. It was a green pixel in the order of RGB and it does not work because it is black. If it was a hot pixel it would be white, and if it was any other color, it would be a stuck pixel. A dead pixel would result in a return, or exchange, depending on manufacturer or store dead pixel policy. When purchasing a tv, make sure to check in store if possible to see if your set has any or as soon as you get home.

 

I think the way this topic should go is to take blurbs and pictures from various links and compile them all here in a mega topic. This will be a huge topic if done right, both in length and helpfulness to members. Also using pictures and layman's terms would make things easier. And the top picture is great btw. Maybe a small section on how to maintain your HDTV (calibration, cleaning etc.,)

Also maybe some graphics of the inputs (DVI, VGA, HDMI etc.,) since you do graphics and I am feeling a bit lazy at the moment.

 

Alas, What is a....

LCD

Plasma

CRT (Cathode ray Tube)

DLP

 

 

How do....

Digital tv's work?

Plasma tv's work?

CRT monitors work?

LCD tv's work?

 

Cleaning tips

 

Also, I know SIP YEK NOD and a few others talk about distance away from a tv to justify 1080p/720p as well as inches of tv to justify distance. I remember back in the GTA4rums, there was a discussion of the sort, but it seems lost. Also, Dell and a few other companies like Apple, Gateway, HP etc., offer 30" monitors with 2560x1600 resolution, at a 16:10 aspect ration, that would be 1600p and is more than usable as a tv due to all the inputs provided. Also, if there are any experts that know the differences between LCD panels, please post them here. Also, if anyone wants to discuss fullscreen, letterbox, wide screen etc., to better explain such options feel free to. Don't let this be all about Otter.

 

PM me if you need some help or something of the sort.

Edited February 27, 2008 by Sixdust

[Otter]

f*ck yeah. We need to keep this nice and organized, too. If the first post gets too large, I'll link to specific posts instead of copypasta.

[Ja750]

Good Topic Otter. Rates Good.

 

Well hopefully i'll be getting a HDTV Soon, I've had my eye on This One I'll just be playing PS3 mainly but also linking it up to my PC.

 

Would you recommend me getting it?

[Sixdust]

 

Good Topic Otter.    Rates Good.

 

Well hopefully i'll be getting a HDTV Soon, I've had my eye on This One I'll just be playing PS3 mainly but also linking it up to my PC.

 

Would you recommend me getting it?

How far away do you plan to sit away from the tv, and why not 1080p? And what type of audio equipment are you going to use?

Edited February 27, 2008 by Sixdust

[Otter]

I'm quite happy with my 32'' 720p TV. I think, as you can probably agree, the best aspect was the price! I use it for both TV and watch HD content via my PC.

 

I sit about 10 feet away from it. At that distance, I still tend to have trouble reading text via my PC, so keep that in mind.

[xtal256]

Pixels aren't the problem.  The human eye can deal with pixels...almost as if they aren't there.  What causes the problem is a low definition image (low resolution, low color bandwidth) being displayed on a high performance device with fixed pixels - it has to stretch and contort the image to fit it's native resolution - this, counter intuitively maybe, makes the image appear blurry.

That's what happened to me. I have an LCD tv, 720p, so it's pretty much HD (even though i watch SD on it). The tv itself only has an analogue tuner so i got a digital set top box/HDD recorder. But it doesn't know that my tv is 720 (and i don't think u can change the res of the stb) so i get blurry lines. Some would call this 'antialiasing' but i just think it looks blurry.

That would be because you have a SD Digital Tuner that only does probably 480i/480p, to get 720p you'd need to buy a HD Digital Tuner.

Yes, well my dad bought it for me for my birthday and he didn't really know all about it and stuff. He knew about HD but just didn't think of getting a HD stb. Anyway, i don't really want HD on a 720 tv, i don't think it would be worth it. If i were to get HD i would go all the way and get full HD (1080) with a huge tv

[Otter]

Aw, dude, it's worth it. Try hooking your PC up to it. Set it to the native resolution, and play some HD videos. It'll blow your mind.

 

Especially if it's something with a less lossy compression than DVD.

[Exkabewbikadid]

Nice topic, guys. I just got a new tv myself and have some questions that I can't seem to find an answer to just yet.

 

Model: Samsong LN-T4665F (LCD 46" 1080p)

 

I've pretty much decided to use it as a computer monitor as well since it puts the old 22' CRT to shame, but there is one problem. It only supports one 16:9 resolution, which is the native 1920x1080, and the others are all 4:3. As insane as 1920x1080 looks, I unfortunately don't have eyes like a freakin' eagle. The only resolution that I can use that's easily readable (at least for my poor eyes) from about 5 feet away is 1024x768, but then I either have to settle with a stretched desktop or set the tv to 4:3 and live with the black bars on each side.

 

I've been trying to find a work around that will let me get 1280x720 or 1368x768. Is it even possible? I've already inadvertently tricked it into doing 1600x1200 via fault of Nvidia's crappy control panel even though the tv manual claims it's not a supported resolution, but as soon as I go into the Nvidia control panel to adjust something again, the tv stops supporting it and I have to switch back to a supported resolution.

 

It just seems really dumb that it can't do any 16:9 ratios below that of its native setting.

 

BTW, it's hooked up with a VGA cord. I'm thinking about getting a DVI-HDMI cable instead because there are some missing features in the Nvidia control panel for "flat panel" screens and I think that has something to do with it.

[Otter]

OH god. I started writing a tutorial for the wrong issue entirely. Here we go again!

 

A few things:

 

Listen - you don't want to use a lower resolution. It won't look pretty, and you wont be able to download and play 1080p content normally.

 

I've always had trouble with the nVidia control panel. I use RivaTuner and the Windows XP display properties instead. Have you tried changing you resolution from there? (right click desktop, choose properties, then go to the "Settings" tab and try the slider.

 

Some TV's will only accept their native resolution. It's a shame.

 

 

How do games run? Try any yet? Try fiddling with the resolution in game?

 

 

.... But back to the issue at hand. You want to keep your high-res, man! So here's what you can do. Go into the Display Properties again.

 

On the appearance tab, click the effects. Turn on large Icons. Close the dialog box, then click on the Advanced button. From here, you can resize the fonts to a legible size. Don't go TOO much larger, or it'll look goofy. Just large enough so you can read without straining yourself.

 

Now go download the Indiana Jones 1080p trailer.

Edited February 28, 2008 by Otter

[PSXtreme]

Response time

 

The smaller the number, the better the panel for things with alot of frames per second such as gaming or action movies. Anything less than 8ms is good, anything less than 5ms is better, and 2ms seems to be the least. The higher the number, the more likely, ghosting is to occur.

Response time is overrated. The only types of LCD panels that get down to 5ms and 2ms are TN panels, which only support sh*t 6-bit color. You want an LCD that is either an S-IPS or an S-PVA panel. These offer true 8-bit color. The response time on these is usually around 10-15ms, but as long as it's under 16.6ms you will get full 60p without ghosting.

[Otter]

 

Response time

 

The smaller the number, the better the panel for things with alot of frames per second such as gaming or action movies. Anything less than 8ms is good, anything less than 5ms is better, and 2ms seems to be the least. The higher the number, the more likely, ghosting is to occur.

Response time is overrated. The only types of LCD panels that get down to 5ms and 2ms are TN panels, which only support sh*t 6-bit color. You want an LCD that is either an S-IPS or an S-PVA panel. These offer true 8-bit color. The response time on these is usually around 10-15ms, but as long as it's under 16.6ms you will get full 60p without ghosting.

My PC monitor, the Samsung 226BW, is a 2ms TN panel. It's glorious. That said, the color compensation isn't perfect.

 

Thanks for noticing that, though, it should be addressed. Below 8ms isn't noticeable at 30fps. Hell, 8ms, black to white, would be 125fps. Obviously, TVs listed with an 8ms response time are grey to grey, but it's not really an issue with today's LCDs.