Kosovo Declares Independence

[Typhus]

The man who assumes that all of the people in my faith are terrorists or want to undermine or harm him in some way. The only reason you're "treading on eggshells" is because you're trying to hide your blatantly anti-Muslim beliefs.

 

And you're doing a horrible job of it, by the way.

You really don't get it do you? Islam has nothing to do with it!

[BigGamer]

 

The man who assumes that all of the people in my faith are terrorists or want to undermine or harm him in some way. The only reason you're "treading on eggshells" is because you're trying to hide your blatantly anti-Muslim beliefs.

 

And you're doing a horrible job of it, by the way.

You really don't get it do you? Islam has nothing to do with it!

I'm not sure about that. Albania is a primarily Muslim country. In any case, you're the one that brought it up with your whole "Western governments are appeasing Muslims" shtick, as if we're Nazis or something. I just responded.

 

EDIT: Don't think that Albania bit was right. My bad.

Edited February 22, 2008 by BigGamer

[Adam Jensen]

half a million people vandalizing every American built structure isn't exactly a small protest

Granted. But if they do not believe they will win through these actions then it is nothing more than an elaborate temper tantrum. You know, if they voted for the other guy maybe things could change. But from what I hear their current leader is off in Romania. What the hell is he doing there?

If they voted for the other guy then the people would have to move to Romania permanently. The other guy is an incompetent nationalist asshole

[Struff Bunstridge]

The man who assumes that all of the people in my faith are terrorists or want to undermine or harm him in some way. The only reason you're "treading on eggshells" is because you're trying to hide your blatantly anti-Muslim beliefs.

 

And you're doing a horrible job of it, by the way.

I understand your position, BigGamer, but I think that comment's a little uncalled for. The reason he's treading on eggshells is because that is the way most non-Muslims are being told to feel by the media and by politicians. It's obviously never stated explicitly, but we are gently pushed towards believing that Muslims are, by and large, a war-mongering and reactionary group of people, who are concerned solely with the abolition of western society. For your average guy on the street, I think it can be easy to slip into going along with this kind of propaganda, and not stick to what you know to be true; that Muslims are inherently no different to any other follower of religion. Throw enough sh*t, and some of it starts to stick...

 

My understanding of Islam is that it's not particularly welcoming of other religions and ways of life, but I could be wrong. I live in a strongly Muslim area, and have never seen any evidence of anything other than a desire on the part of Muslims to try and keep themselves to themselves.

[TFatseas]

MLK used non-violence to end institutionalized racism in the United States and Gandhi was trying to free his country from British colonialism. Please tell me how Serbia protesting to keep a province that

 

a) Doesn't want to be a part of Serbia

 

and

 

b) Has a 7% Serbian population

 

make any sense at all? That's not exactly a cause that people will be sympathetic towards. I'm not saying that Serbia has no right to be upset about this, but non-violent resistance would be as effective as trying to stop a tank with water guns.

 

Oh, and why all the anti-Islamic rhetoric, sir? What did we do to you?

True, in the eyes of the world Serbia is in the wrong. But by exhibiting a peaceful front they can turn the situation around. Win the media, win the mind. And the press is a fickle beast. You get a charming leader, lots of nice sing-songs and sit-in protests and watch those journalists swoon. But at the moment this behaviour is winning them no friends. Understand that morality is adaptable. Right and wrong are tools. And through non violent action they can paint themselves as the victims. And with the anti-West bias of the media this will work.

 

 

The Serbs have already lost all respect from most of the major western economic powers due to the embassy attacks, attacks on UN checkpoints, and past history during the wars during the 90's.

 

On another note: Russia is threatening action, but it's bluster for people back home. Russia is not going to do a thing, their upset that they have been knocked off the world stage and basically are screaming for attention. "Look at me" really, and anyway, what the hell would they do? Economic sanctions, if anything thats the most likely. Military action, No way. Rusted out tank divisions filled with conscripts don't start in one crank so to speak. Not considering they couldn't fight some of the most tech advanced country's on earth.

[BigGamer]

 

My understanding of Islam is that it's not particularly welcoming of other religions and ways of life, but I could be wrong. I live in a strongly Muslim area, and have never seen any evidence of anything other than a desire on the part of Muslims to try and keep themselves to themselves.

I am a Muslim, and I very fiercely believe in every human being's right to choose his own religious beliefs, even if that means having no religious beliefs at all. I live in a non-Muslim society, and most of the people that I associate with are non-Muslims. While I have seen some of my "co-religionists" talk about how Islam is the only true religion and how those don't follow it go to Hell, I'd say just about every faith has people like that.

 

Although I will admit that some Muslims aren't exactly trusting of other people, I think that has more to do with being immigrants in a foreign land than xenophobia.

 

 

The Serbs have already lost all respect from most of the major western economic powers due to the embassy attacks, attacks on UN checkpoints, and past history during the wars during the 90's.

Agreed. They've basically dug their own grave over the last two decades.

[Typhus]

My understanding of Islam is that it's not particularly welcoming of other religions and ways of life, but I could be wrong.

I've had the opposite experience. I worked with a Muslim and we discussed religion. We were very similar and he was very accepting of my faith as we both agreed that Jesus, at the very least, was a wonderful teacher beloved by God. He was a good man, the other Muslims I've met? Good, kind people. Not my friends, I won't go into that whole "I have Muslim friends so I can't be Islamophobic" nonsense. But from what I've seen they're decent. Although, on a sour note, my co-worker did like the Taliban and only grudgingly accepted my repeated assertion that suicide bombers, having commited a mortal sin, would burn in hell. He had some extreme beliefs but was always respectful of my Protestantism. Those who want courtesy give courtesy.

[nlitement]

It's a cultural thing. Back in the dark ages, Europe was a f*cktard fest and the Islamic world was wonderful. Everybody accepted evolution, science flourished, and they saved ancient knowledge whereas Europeans destroyed it (or something like that).

 

I've never seen an Albanian, Turkish, or Kurdish woman adhering to hijab, even though they're muslims, over here. Only Iraqi and some other nationalities. Even if they're all Muslims, you can expect different religious behavior from different groups.

[Struff Bunstridge]

I've had the opposite experience. I worked with a Muslim and we discussed religion. We were very similar and he was very accepting of my faith as we both agreed that Jesus, at the very least, was a wonderful teacher beloved by God. He was a good man, the other Muslims I've met? Good, kind people. Not my friends, I won't go into that whole "I have Muslim friends so I can't be Islamophobic" nonsense. But from what I've seen they're decent. Although, on a sour note, my co-worker did like the Taliban and only grudgingly accepted my repeated assertion that suicide bombers, having commited a mortal sin, would burn in hell. He had some extreme beliefs but was always respectful of my Protestantism. Those who want courtesy give courtesy.

I'd agree with you on that score: the individual Muslims I've met have been fine people. Apart from Turkish ones; they've been universally horrible. What I meant was the religion itself; Islam as taught in the Koran does seem to be quite different in a lot of ways to the version practised by everyday people, in much the same way that Christianity in the Bible is nowadays rarely folllowed as strictly as it used to be. This may sound reactionary, but it seems to me that the closer that somebody adheres to their religion, the closer they come to the standard definiton of fundamentalism, or zealotry. Again, the level of non-acceptance I understand to be inherent within what we should perhaps call the "old" or "original" Islam, both from reading the Koran itself and from various discussions with people, means that a devout Muslim will always be easier for the media to use as a boogeyman than a devout Hindu or Christian.

[nlitement]

 

I've had the opposite experience. I worked with a Muslim and we discussed religion. We were very similar and he was very accepting of my faith as we both agreed that Jesus, at the very least, was a wonderful teacher beloved by God. He was a good man, the other Muslims I've met? Good, kind people. Not my friends, I won't go into that whole "I have Muslim friends so I can't be Islamophobic" nonsense. But from what I've seen they're decent. Although, on a sour note, my co-worker did like the Taliban and only grudgingly accepted my repeated assertion that suicide bombers, having commited a mortal sin, would burn in hell. He had some extreme beliefs but was always respectful of my Protestantism. Those who want courtesy give courtesy.

I'd agree with you on that score: the individual Muslims I've met have been fine people. Apart from Turkish ones; they've been universally horrible. What I meant was the religion itself; Islam as taught in the Koran does seem to be quite different in a lot of ways to the version practised by everyday people, in much the same way that Christianity in the Bible is nowadays rarely folllowed as strictly as it used to be. This may sound reactionary, but it seems to me that the closer that somebody adheres to their religion, the closer they come to the standard definiton of fundamentalism, or zealotry. Again, the level of non-acceptance I understand to be inherent within what we should perhaps call the "old" or "original" Islam, both from reading the Koran itself and from various discussions with people, means that a devout Muslim will always be easier for the media to use as a boogeyman than a devout Hindu or Christian.

I like to put it this way:

 

 

Authority is the truth!

 

Truth is the authority!

[AndyGanteks]

It seems Serbs are going to chill with the wrecage of non-serbian property now,because it produces a chain reaction to kids to wreck Serbian stores too.Since nobody controlles masses here, the situation is going to chill up,but the battle for Kosovo is no where near over.

This is just a weather before the storm...I think people willl move to Kosovo stateline and start battling.On one hand that is better.

I also thought about this today...how about a compromise ,so that North Kosovo goes to Serbs and South to Albania?

 

Oh, i think i found a best video of the US embassy destruction for those who want to watch maybe :

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Typhus]

 

I also thought about this today...how about a compromise ,so that North Kosovo goes to Serbs and South to Albania?

But wouldn't that just cause some kind of civil war? Do that and Serbia will resemble a poorly cut cake.

Edited February 22, 2008 by Typhus

[Stefan.]

@BigGamer: Serbian consituent Republic of Bosnia

 

What the hell does the independance of Kosovo have to do with Islam vs. anti-Islam? Sheeshe.

[TFatseas]

 

This is just a weather before the storm...I think people willl move to Kosovo stateline and start battling.On one hand that is better.

 

Why? That just makes Serbia look worse in the eyes of the world, specifically in the west, it makes you look the aggressor, and Kosovo, the victim.

 

The embassy attacks did nothing, and Serbia is at fault because the host state is to provide protection for the foreign embassies, as stated in the 1961 Vienna Convention. The Marines did their job, so why does Serb riot police take 45 minutes to begin to do anything?

 

Why not peaceful negotiations? I'll quote myself from earlier.

 

 

The road to respectability and economic prosperity is a long one, for any nation, but for the hot-headed it is an endless one.

[Ryan]

This is a little off topic to what you guys are talking about at the moment.

 

I've been following this very closey on CNN. I've seen a ton of pictures of armed forces on the Kosovo side of the boreder with all the rifles and machine guns pointed at the Serbians ready to shoot any protestor that goes accros that line.

 

Recentley NATO and the UN have sent troops in between the 2 countries to stop this thing, but one slip and this could easyley turn into a nice little war between Serbia and Kosovo. Then after it lasts a few hours, Russia and China come and help then USA, Britan, Germany, and Canada come and help.

 

I'm not hoping for this to happen, I'm just stating that from my point of view I think this could very easyly turn into a war, if not World War 3.

[TFatseas]

 

This is a little off topic to what you guys are talking about at the moment.

 

I've been following this very closey on CNN. I've seen a ton of pictures of armed forces on the Kosovo side of the boreder with all the rifles and machine guns pointed at the Serbians ready to shoot any protestor that goes accros that line.

 

Recentley NATO and the UN have sent troops in between the 2 countries to stop this thing, but one slip and this could easyley turn into a nice little war between Serbia and Kosovo. Then after it lasts a few hours, Russia and China come and help then USA, Britan,  Germany, and Canada come and help.

 

I'm not hoping for this to happen, I'm just stating that from my point of view I think this could very easyly turn into a war, if not World War 3.

Go HERE

 

I hope you know the soldiers under KFOR and the UN are peacekeepers, they act more like police and have different SOP's and ROE's than other forces that operate in more combat orientated environments. But they will act in self defense.

 

Now back on topic.

Edited February 23, 2008 by TFatseas

[Silent-Hill]

I just want to say something to allofyou who are against Kosovo's independence.

Forget about Kosovo. You'll never get it back.It will forever remain independent.

[The Killa]

After looking at that attack, the Serbians that were involved look like a bunch of f*cking morons.

 

Really? Attacking the U.S embassy is logical?

 

Okay, okay guys. I'm going to call what will happen in this sh*tstorm:

 

Serbia gets SO butthurt over this situation that they will spark WW3. Kosovo, US, Britain, Germany, CAnada and Japan vs. Serbia, Russia and China. China gets cocky and initiates nuclear warfare. Others retaliate.

 

fast forward

 

All the world superpowers are gone. World is in turmoil. Environment from nuclear blasts will get so f*cked that the earth will virtually end. In the end, New Zealand (who is isolating themselves over this whole situation) will be the last country standing and they'll be like "lol wut".

 

The end. THANKS SERBIA YOU KILLED US ALL

[Stefan.]

After looking at that attack, the Serbians that were involved look like a bunch of f*cking morons.

 

Really? Attacking the U.S embassy is logical?

 

Okay, okay guys. I'm going to call what will happen in this sh*tstorm:

 

Serbia gets SO butthurt over this situation that they will spark WW3. Kosovo, US, Britain, Germany, CAnada and Japan vs. Serbia, Russia and China. China gets cocky and initiates nuclear warfare. Others retaliate.

 

fast forward

 

All the world superpowers are gone. World is in turmoil. Environment from nuclear blasts will get so f*cked that the earth will virtually end. In the end, New Zealand (who is isolating themselves over this whole situation) will be the last country standing and they'll be like "lol wut".

 

The end. THANKS SERBIA YOU KILLED US ALL

Do you really think we are trying to destroy the earth? No, we are not. We are members of the world community as well, and all those rioters were doing was venting their anger and upsetness. You should not really be blaming all of Serbia, because only 1% of people that went to protest in Belgrade actually attacked the embassy. Believe me, 99% of the population is not stupid enough to burn down embassies, etc. Every country has a small group of idiots which take things a little too serious.

 

@Silent Hill: Can you actually assure everyone of that? Especially in Blakans, borders changed almost every decade. Nothing in this world stays forever, especially int he Balkans. If only absolutely everyone in Serbia actually acted diplomatically.

[TFatseas]

Serb armor near Kosovo border

 

 

Kosovo border police have reported Serb tanks are taking positions near the Kosovo-Serb border. On Friday police in Kosovo's northern city of Mitrovica held off thousands of Serb protesters who were trying to cross the bridge dividing the Serb and Albanian sides of the city.

 

Hundreds of ethnic Serbs have arrived in the province to show their support for the Serbian minority living there. Kosovan authorities have already introduced restrictions preventing Serbs from entering the region.

 

Police have been given the green light to use tough measures to keep any rioting under control but, apart from isolated incidents, the rally passed off peacefully.

 

Authorities feared a repeat of the overnight violence that gripped the Serbian capital Belgrade, killing one and injuring up to 200. The violence also resulted in damage to a number of Western embassies.

 

In Belgrade President Boris Tadic has called on the Council for National Security to discuss the situation in the country. He said there was no excuse for violence and nothing could justify Thursday's unrest.

 

Meanwhile, Russia's envoy to NATO, Dmitry Rogozin, says alliance officials in Kosovo should not overstep the bounds of their mandate.

 

“Some high-ranking NATO officials are giving orders that are obviously inconsistent with their authority, such as an order to block the border in northern Kosovo, where mostly ethnic Serbs live. This means that Kosovo Serbs are cut off from Serbia itself. If the Albanians decide to break away, that doesn't mean they can seize someone else's property and citizens.

 

The thing is that the Serbs in Kosovo, who were previously citizens of their country, suddenly do not know who they are - Kosovars or inhabitants of an independent territory. Besides, we're disturbed by reports, although it needs checking, that some NATO military chiefs are considering whether to stop representatives of the Serbian administration entering Kosovo. This is not in their mandate. For us, the main thing is that NATO shouldn't intervene in politics, but stick to a neutral position on Kosovo, as it always did,” Rogozin said.

 

If this isn't an act of aggression I don't know what is. A word of advice to Serbia, tread carefully.

[Vive La France]

I think this should be moved to Debates and Discussion, but that's just me.

 

I'm glad they have a system of government finally.

[tommy vs. claude]

 

If this isn't an act of aggression I don't know what is. A word of advice to Serbia, tread carefully.

You seem to have an extreme bias against the Serbs, you obviously haven't heard some of the stuff the Albanians did to them in the past 70 years.

[TFatseas]

 

 

If this isn't an act of aggression I don't know what is. A word of advice to Serbia, tread carefully.

You seem to have an extreme bias against the Serbs, you obviously haven't heard some of the stuff the Albanians did to them in the past 70 years.

This was my original response.

 

 

You know, I don't see why America has to come into play here, and I'm very pro American.

 

My point is Serbia has been trying to cozy up and integrate with the West. We just gave them a kick in the teeth.

 

I have to admit though, the Serbs are not helping the situation with their current violent actions. I just don't want this to boil into an avoidable conflict where many innocents on both sides will suffer.

 

I know the Albanians have committed atrocities, I do not deny that, all of them horrible and unwarranted. I know the Albanians worked for the Nazi's, their absolutely awful "ethic cleansing" killed or displaced 500,000+, if not alot more. Their brutal tactics even shocked the SS. Its a centuries old conflict.

 

But Milosevic got the west angry the first, and the mentality is who ever is the 'Bad Guy' first, stays the bad guy.

 

And yes I do believe that Milosevic was a murderous thug, but thats because of his actions, not because he was a Serb.

Edited February 23, 2008 by TFatseas

[AndyGanteks]

All the world superpowers are gone. World is in turmoil. Environment from nuclear blasts will get so f*cked that the earth will virtually end. In the end, New Zealand (who is isolating themselves over this whole situation) will be the last country standing and they'll be like "lol wut".

 

The end. THANKS SERBIA YOU KILLED US ALL

What does New Zealand have to do with this?They are neutral.

 

Also why do you think China will be cocky?Maybe US will throw the missles at Serbia first...

 

To somebody saying KFOR keeps peace at Kosovo...well they have killed a pretty decent number of Serbs on Kosovo just for the record,so hows that for peacemaking?

 

About the dead guy(it was a male at the end)identified as a 21 year old.

 

German embassy also rejected giving VISAS to Serbs,and the US stopped working(i dont really know how is my uncle going to get his green card now...)

 

 

My point is Serbia has been trying to cozy up and integrate with the West. We just gave them a kick in the teeth.

 

^This is a proof US doesnt even care about Serbia in peace protests or angry protests.

 

Yesterday a peaceful protest of Serb students from Pristina and Kosovo universitys and schools was held in Mitrovica,biggest city down there.About 50 000 of students from other parts of Serbia were to come down,but they were stopped at the border.

Few hours later they went back,and the Serbs in Mitrovica heard that via mobile phones,so after the protest ended they went to the bridge that shares Mitrovica to Serbian and Albanian part to riot and throw stones at people keeping it as a matter of protest.The situation was clear a few hours later,Students retreated-none injured.

 

^This is related to Fatseases quote from a few posts up.This is the truth,and no Serbian tanks were present.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Funky_Donkey]

Nutty Balkan people

Thank's a lot Greetings from bulgaria

[Stefan.]

That tank crap is just propaganda. Are there actually any photos or video footage of the tanks there? No, there are not. The only photo of a tank in that article is that of a UN tank in Kosovo.

 

@Fatseas: I agree, Milosevic was no angel, but he really was not that bad. He actually did not order his army to kill Albanians; the Serb soldiers themselves organised that. All Milosevic did was to call on Serbs to protest for Kosovo, and put troops in Kosovo to try and stop the violence. Of course, Western media took it from a different perspective, and told it their way.

 

@Funky_Donkey: Unless you have something to contribute to Kosovo, then just get out. Please.

[TFatseas]

 

That tank crap is just propaganda. Are there actually any photos or video footage of the tanks there? No, there are not. The only photo of a tank in that article is that of a UN tank in Kosovo.

 

I do believe you are right. I cannot find any other sources confirming that LARGE amounts of Serb armor has neared the border, but I have found reports of a FEW Serb tanks near Merdar. But that doesn't mean a whole brigade or division has moved in.

 

Of course the Serbs are doing it, makes no sense why you wouldn't secure the borders.

[Brutuz]

The thing we all have to know is.

 

Does GTAF have the little flag for this country yet?

[YourNeighborhoodKiller]

The thing we all have to know is.

 

Does GTAF have the little flag for this country yet?

I checked but they don't have it yet.

 

Hopefully they'll have it soon though.

[Brutuz]

The thing we all have to know is.

 

Does GTAF have the little flag for this country yet?

I checked but they don't have it yet.

 

Hopefully they'll have it soon though.

They better, cuz then we can tell all the local news stations that www.gtaforums.com supports Kosovo!