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Canofceleri

Grief, Death and Dying Discussion

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Canofceleri

Most of us will face the loss of family and friends within our lifetimes and all of us will die. This is a discussion thread for anything related. Whether it's discussion about a recent or long ago loss or about your feelings about death and dying.

 

I guess I am making this topic because I've long thought about dying and all the existential thinking that goes with that. Of course as a normal healthy organism I don't want to die and have my anxieties about it. Intellectually I feel that it doesn't matter and it's just a part of the game.

 

Also, I've just lost my dad about two months ago to a cardiac and pulmonary arrest most likely due to a blood clot. He wasn't healthy, mentally or physically... but he was only 57 (I'm 20) and it was definitely not expected at this time. It's definitely very difficult and complicated... it feels as if I don't even belong on Earth anymore, like my strings were cut or something. Nonetheless, I think I've gotten through it okay. For awhile it was very hard of course (especially when something like a song triggers thought of him), but I'm not the type to fall apart... honestly, I don't really think about it that much.

 

Has anyone here lost a parent, companion, sibling, friend? Anyone got feelings on dying?

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K^2

Death is really not that different from birth. It is just another end-point on your trajectory through space and time. The only thing connecting points within that trajectory is your memories. Next moment might very well not exist, and it would make no difference. So I'm not particularly worried about dying. Of course, I will avoid it as much as possible, but I have no fear of it.

 

As for other people dying, I do not see the difference in separation in space and separation in time. People who have died are not gone by any measure. They are simply not now, which is the same as not being here.

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Canofceleri

Eh... I see where you're coming from... but once a person's brain ceases to function... it's kind of over man. I mean, other people remember, but they'll be gone too soon enough.

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K^2

It's not about living through other's memories. That's a bunch of crap that people use to calm themselves down. You entirely missed the point. The fact that you do not occupy the entire length of time, whatever it may be, does not mean that you cease to be when your time is up. You are still there, in that stretch of time. You were born. You will die. And you will forever exist in the span of time in between. Nothing can change that.

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Canofceleri

You should read Jean-Paul Sartre's Being and Nothingness, there's a section called Temporality that is very interesting.

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Ph3L1z14n0

Dying sucks... bored.gif

 

I believe in many things, i believe in god, i believe in life, i believe in wisdom, in hope, in freedom, in fun, in love, but all that crap i believe in has a big pillar holding ALL that up, and that is my bigger belief that i and everyone will have a life after this one.

 

If none of that exists, then the true irony of living comes out, that no matter what do you do, you will end up the same as everyone else, living could be a frikkin dead end, why? because i can become a mass murderer or a philanthropist, and the end will be the same for me.

 

Now that actually doesn't sound so bad!!!, the real problem is that we live too hard lifes, i wouldn't give a crap about a pure blackness end if i hadn't done so much effort in life (not that i am somekind of a Ghandi).

 

It's not about WHAT'S THE POINT?, it's more WHY DO WE BOTHER?

 

K^2 please explain again your second post, i definitely misinterpreted that dontgetit.gif

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Ph3L1z14n0

Sorry for double posting but i just wanted to know if anyone in this forum belives in Nirvana, another vision of paradise, if so, i'd be happy to learn and it would help the topic

Edited by Ph3L1z14n0

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spyro_ie

Well I have been to more funerals in the last week than I have in my whole life, which is weird. I didn't excatley know the people too well (one was our local priest, one an neighbour and the other a relative of a friend), but it really put things into perspective for me.

 

Personally I am worried about losing someone close to me. I have thankfully haven't lost any relatives or friends, but I feel it's only a matter of time and I don't know how I'll cope with it.

 

I am personally not afraid of dying, in fact I hope I don't life to be old because, in general, being old means losing your freedom. Freedom to do what you love due to old age, freedom to go where you want due to senility etc.

 

But thats beside the point. I do not believe in God, or an afterlife, which makes the death of a loved one even sadder for me. To think that you will never speak to them again, it's very depressing.

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Canofceleri

It's very surreal losing a loved one. It's one of those things that when it happens you just have to deal with it or else you'll go crazy. I never would have thought that only a month after I would be as functioning as well as I am.

 

And that's the saddest part for me, spyro. I think of my dad's life and all that he went through just to die off and not have any consciousness left at all. As someone alluded to before, what Bill Gates got that I really don't have?

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GodfatherITB

I try not to think about it too much. Dwelling on the subject can get really depressing. I guess you've just got to enjoy life while you can. Luckily, I haven't had anyone close to me die yet. But I know eventually it will happen, granted I don't die first.

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toysintheattic

Losing friends and family does hurt. I don't currently believe in an afterlife which, as others have stated, makes it harder knowing they are gone forever.

 

(Ironically enough "Dust in the Wind" by Kansas is playing on the radio right now)

 

 

I was looking for a specific quote and couldn't find it but I tried to sum it up best I could.

 

I don't see why my being dead would cause me any alarm, in the view of, I was dead for billions of years before I existed and it never once troubled me.

 

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Cawlyeah

Life is overrated.

Edited by Kolji

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Ph3L1z14n0
Life is overrated

Damn right mad.gif !!!

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Saggy

When I was a really small child, I didn't really have a good concept of death--what kid does. However, the difference is that I once tried to kill my sister. I say that in complete earnest. Of course I was too young to really understand the ramifications or what would happen if I had actually pushed my sister over that water-fall, but I sure as hell tried. I don't remember being terribly cruel to animals, but I do remember killing quite a few small birds and rats before I was ever completely satisfied with my curiosity of "killing".

 

What I find kind of strange, is that I never really had the idea of "natural causes" before I was about six or seven. Whenever one of my pets died, or I saw someone die on the TV, it was always by external forces; cat got ran over, guy on the TV was shot to death. The first time anyone in my family ever died of "natural causes" I was kind of confused. I remember it was my great uncle Bob, and I asked my mom, "Who killed Uncle Bob?" She said, "No one killed him, he died of a heart attack," and I replied, "Yeah, but who killed him".

 

However, later in my childhood, around aged 9 or 10, my relatives started to die in decidedly unnatural ways. My great grandfather killed himself; I don't recall if I was terribly familiar with the idea of suicide at that point, but I was familiar enough that I got up in front of the family, and shot myself in the side of the head with a squirt gun a couple of times as a "joke". Following that my grandfather ( step grandfather) died of cancer, and another died from open-heart surgery complications. I never really had too many reflections of, "I'll never see them again," or anything too deep at the specific moments that it happened, nor did I when my great grandmother and my grandmother died. I have the order a little bunged up, but really there were so many deaths going on in our familiar that the local funeral home literally started giving us discounts. However, I was too young to really comprehend the true magnitude of the situation, and the majority of the time I lamented or cried it was mostly due to the atmosphere; funerals, hospital rooms, etc. Whenever there's enough misery in a place like that, I get a bit of an empathetical tidal wave of remorse and sorrow; however, when I reflected on their deaths alone, I often didn't feel much grief or loss; most of the relatives I did not even know very well.

 

Since then I really haven't been exposed to a death in the family that's really had a large impact on me. I'm not sure if my relative ease at dealing with death is because of my age when most of the death I've dealt with took place or if I've just never experienced the death of someone close enough to me to really devastate me. The only reason I think that I understand what true grief can do to someone is because I watched what it had done to my parents, my mom specifically, and my grandparents. When my great grandmother died, it was of natural causes, but only a year or two after the death of her husband, my great grandfather. My grandmother always use to tell me that the grief killed her; after my great grandfather died, she'd just spend all day long in her chair drinking. She became so atrophied that she broke her leg walking to the bathroom and became bed ridding, and then died in her sleep shortly afterwards. Coincidentally, when my step grandfather died of cancer in 1997, my grandmother who told me her mother died of grief later died in 1999 of unknown causes. It was officially marked down as repository failure, but we never investigated why.

 

When I speak about my great grandfather, my grandmother, my step grandfather, and my biological grandfather, it's important to note that they were all from my mother's side of the family. She went through several emotional breakdowns, specifically with my great grandfather's dead, my grandmother's dead, and my biological grandfather's death. With each one her health deteriorated, she became suicidal and she relapsed. To this day she will still play Roy Orbison or Kay Starr like she use to with her mother, and cry her eyes out. For a long time I always felt I was a bit calloused or jaded when watching her go through such emotional roller coasters over deaths that didn't effect me that significantly.

 

I have my own opinions on death, though I don't think that they would be very consistent with others, and I doubt they're very healthy. I can say that I don't believe in an afterlife and that I'm not afraid of dying. I simply look at death as the end of the show, after which there is no more. I've been tempted to press the stop button prematurely on more than one occasion, and would probably willingly do so quite eagerly if circumstances were just a little different.

 

I don't have a way to really summarize my feelings on death, those are just my experiences with it. Ultimately I don't have very strong opinions on death. It's life that I can do without.

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Rebel

Well, right now to me death has become very surreal. Mainly because yesterday I heard 2 people that I kinda knew and went to my college died in a car crash and 2 others hurt in the accident.

I think death is a big part of life, I mean even if you don't know the person who died or something like that death happens every day. I forgot the actual fact but its every 5 or 8 mins?

I think its just something thats expected in your life but you don't want to think about it or other people dying.

I think one of my biggest fears is somebody close to me dying and how I would cope with it. I'm a person that likes to keep my feelings to myself and if something like that happened then I'd hate to think I wouldn't ever talk about it or want to deal with it.

But it's not something I think about a lot or ever really except how I'd want to go. Which maybe most cases for people is peacefully and something that doesn't hurt too much.

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*gta star*

I lost my Uncle in June last year, he had a stroke, but didn't look after himself very well. He was a Diabetic, but he continued to eat foods high in sugar, and never took his medication. Every morning, he used to get up, have his breakfast, and go for a walk to the shop to get the newspaper. He went upstairs to put his shoes on, his wife heard a huge bang, he collapsed on the floor, he was dead. I still bear in mind this day, why was he actually so stupid to not take his medication ? He totally went against what Doctor's were telling him. He did have problems with his mind though, he was a very temperamental type of person, he'd get upset over small things, eventually he broke down when he found out he had an illness. Rest in Peace to him. sad.gif

 

Death is a part of life, we are all going to die someday, some people die before others, whether that may be from illness, accidents etc. We don't want to think about dying, we want to think about living our life as happily as we can, with our families and friends, but things come and things go in life. Sadly, children are born, new lives to the world, but for all these children that are being born, there are as many, if not more people dying, it's a cycle.

 

 

 

 

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Cran.

Death scares the crap out of me. It just does. It's hard to say how some of you guys can have a rather logical approach to death, but I suppose that just goes down to the fact that we're all different and that we see things in completely different ways.

 

The only relative i've had that's died is my grandmother, and I really don't remember being sad at all, or even really anything at all about her death. Weird, all I seem to remember is that I was the last one to see her in her nursing home while on a trip with my kindergarten. Lovely.

 

Still, death is just a fact of life. The way I see it is that you might as well just make the most of life. There's nothing more depressing than living a shallow, empty meaningless existence.

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*gta star*
That's true mate, we couldn't just all live in sorrow, that would mean more of a solomn approach towards death.

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fox09
It's not about living through other's memories. That's a bunch of crap that people use to calm themselves down. You entirely missed the point. The fact that you do not occupy the entire length of time, whatever it may be, does not mean that you cease to be when your time is up. You are still there, in that stretch of time. You were born. You will die. And you will forever exist in the span of time in between. Nothing can change that.

So what does that mean? Is your life constantly looping? You're stuck in the same time span, while the rest of time keeps going? I'm not sure how it's significant that we still "exist" in a time that has already passed, while the rest of the world keeps going even after we've kicked the bucket.

 

 

 

 

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Canofceleri

I understand what he's saying that we occupied a certain space in time and though we pass that space will have always have happened though it might be passed. There's no loop or anything. The fact is though, we don't know... you can believe in reincarnation, but there is no proof or prior experience or observation to go by, it's just make believe.

 

You see a dead possum on the road, would you assume they're in heaven or were born again as another possum? No, because A)Possums aren't important and B)There's no reason to vest in that as physical fact just because such creative thinking is inside the realms of conventional human thinking. We're animals too... we have no actual value just like the possum... we create our own values and belong in the same physical reality as the dead possum. I don't think there is an afterlife of any kind.

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crazyjoe

I don't mind death that much nor do I fear what is going to happen after I die(atheist - but a good person so if there is a loving, forgiving god he best see my way into heaven).

 

I am though worried about dying. I got to imagine that it is a pretty crappy experience and that we are lucky to only go through it once. The way I imagine the whole dying process is that you feel your life slipping away and you realize there isn't sh*t you can do about it.

 

I don't think that life is over-rated though. This may be the only shot at it, so you might as well live it the way you feel is what you want. Nobody has the right to tell you that the way you're living isn't right(unless you're harming yourself by doing too many drugs or something like that).

 

[time for me to sound a little hypocritical but oh well]

 

Life in the purest form is beautiful. You gotta enjoy the good sides of life. The media is constantly telling you that man is evil, the world is evil, and everything else is evil. You have to accept that fact and then move on. Some people will be poor for their entire lives - never owning a computer, going on vacations, traveling the world, etc. That's their misfortune, and it isn't selfish to be enjoying your life.

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Typhus

Boring.

Edited by Typhus

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crazyjoe
I don't fear death. When I go with the Reaper it'll be a relief. I don't belong here. I don't ejoy the excesses that many consider to be normal human behaviour. I have no desire to reproduce. I simply don't belong here. So why fear death? There's nothing to worry about. God will always accept the righteous and end their pain. So unless you're an Atheist you've got nothing to fear. This life is pointless, all we can do with this time is try to show each other as much kindness and mercy as we can muster. And, if you are that way inclined, pass on your genetic material to ensure the survival of your bloodline. Apart from that this earth has nothing to offer but death, war and injustice in all imaginable forms. So don't fear the Reaper. Because the Reaper is a damn sight more tolerable than some of the trials we have to endure on a daily basis.

don't be such a downer, man tounge2.gif

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Typhus
don't be such a downer, man tounge2.gif

I'm being honest. There's nothing for me and apart from passing on your genes there is nothing for you either. The next world is where we truly live.

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crazyjoe
don't be such a downer, man  tounge2.gif

I'm being honest. There's nothing for me and apart from passing on your genes there is nothing for you either. The next world is where we truly live.

Not if you don't believe in it. devil.gif

 

There's more to life than just having kids and dying.

 

Enjoying your life and living it the way you want. That's gotta be worth something.

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Typhus

Meh.

Edited by Typhus

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Ph3L1z14n0
What is there to enjoy in life? Taxes? The fickle nature of society at large? The repayment of hard work with complete ingrattitude? Face it, this world is a joke. Humans are a joke. The great ape. Advanced to the point where opiates and alcohol and whoring are considered perfectly acceptable. We really are just little people with little desires. So, let's get this straight. The normal course of life goes something like this...

 

1. Be born

2. Go to school

3. Get a job

4. Get a family

5. Raise family

6. Wait for death

7. Die

 

Enjoyment or not that is a complete farce. For all our grand schemes we ultimately share our sense of purpose with termites and rats. We create "sacred" institutions only to destroy them with all manner of excuses. Look at marriage. What a joke. You claim love when all you seek is a had to hold on your way to the scrap heap. We see sparks of beauty emerging through the cracks in our hollow shells but that's all they are, sparks. A fire not yet lit. Mostly we are selfish and sceptical. Want proof? Go read a book by Richard Dawkins. Hopelessness spews from that mans mouth like sewerage from France.

I have to agree inmensely with you, humanity for example claims today that they succedeed over slavery, that we don't have slaves anymore, while it only got worse, now we are not slaves to the white or any other men, we are slaves to money, to our jobs, and the most fascist slaver is OUR FUTURE.

 

Why? we go to school because of OUR FUTURE, and what happens?? we get out of there with NOTHING, then we go to college because of OUR FUTURE, and what happens?? we get a JOB, but the standards of life says OH that it isn't enough!!! you can have a better FUTURE with a family!!! now you need to get married and have kids who will repeat the same sh*t you just did!!!, for their FUTURE.

 

That actually made me realize how we are such slaves that we don't value people because of who they are, we value them because of WHAT THEY CAN DO, no one in a normal society is admired because he is heartwarming, imaginative or even intelligent!!! we only value the fact that they are either engineers, accountants, technicians, etc. therefore if you don't "contribute" your worth sh*t.

 

Now, getting close to my point with this topic, what i mean with that before, is that all of those things take away the meaning of life, like a beautiful song, a song can be always beautiful, until you repeat it on the radio a thousand f*cking times.

 

Most likely when we die, it will be pure blackness, so why do we bother doing al the sh*t we do in "life"? because we are slaves, and like any normal slave behavior, we will not uprise against our sort of master which is this kind of life, simply because we are afraid.

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Canofceleri

Ph3l... there is no meaning. We're land mammals. We eat and reproduce and do sh*t. People value and admire people who have good careers and are prosperous because that is what keeps the wheels turning and ensures the future as you referenced. If there is any "point" the real material point, if point is what you call it, is to reproduce and keep the cycle going. That's the organism's drive at nearly every level. The idea that there is a meaning to life is born of the 1337 brains we have, but is not real.

 

Life can be frustrating, you seem to be frustrated with it. But you've got to make the best of what you have. Sure, it's meaningless (which clashes with the human condition considerably), we have the gift of intellect and abstract thought, but that stuff is new and clashes with other parts of our brain. But there is something keeping me and many from suicide... the acceptance of how I'm like any animal and there is the life drive and I want to stay and live because it's the only thing I know and I'm going to submit to that. Life is peculiar and interesting to me and I'm into it... I love thinking about how I and other humans are and I take interest in things that we as animals can do... like enjoy movies and synthesize medicine to cure disease and all that great technical stuff... I also love how primitive motives and social interaction and status is all behind everything. I like the range of emotions and perspectives and the choices and decisions that we make every day that have real impact for us while we're here this short time.

 

I try to remain positive, in spite of coming to accept what I think are certain truths that would to many seem bleak I find a perspective and philosophy to my life that give me a reason to go on and try to help turn the wheel. So I guess we do nothing but rationalizing our whole life when it comes to that kind of thing.

Edited by Candarelli

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Ph3L1z14n0
Ph3l... there is no meaning. We're land mammals. We eat and reproduce and do sh*t. People value and admire people who have good careers and are prosperous because that is what keeps the wheels turning and ensures the future as you referenced. If there is any "point" the real material point, if point is what you call it, is to reproduce and keep the cycle going. That's the organism's drive at nearly every level. The idea that there is a meaning to life is born of the 1337 brains we have, but is not real.

 

Life can be frustrating, you seem to be frustrated with it. But you've got to make the best of what you have. Sure, it's meaningless (which clashes with the human condition considerably), we have the gift of intellect and abstract thought, but that stuff is new and clashes with other parts of our brain. But there is something keeping me and many from suicide... the acceptance of how I'm like any animal and there is the life drive and I want to stay and live because it's the only thing I know and I'm going to submit to that. Life is peculiar and interesting to me and I'm into it... I love thinking about how I and other humans are and I take interest in things that we as animals can do... like enjoy movies and synthesize medicine to cure disease and all that great technical stuff... I also love how primitive motives and social interaction and status is all behind everything. I like the range of emotions and perspectives and the choices and decisions that we make every day that have real impact for us while we're here this short time.

 

I try to remain positive, in spite of coming to accept what I think are certain truths that would to many seem bleak I find a perspective and philosophy to my life that give me a reason to go on and try to help turn the wheel. So I guess we do nothing but rationalizing our whole life when it comes to that kind of thing.

The action of JUST living to the fullest does not have meaning?

 

Don't take in account any metaphysical belief, just take in account the question, meaning on my own definition does not have to do anything with destiny or even life after death.

 

And please don't go K^2 on me biggrin.gif

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Canofceleri

Well you did say in an earlier post that you believe in life after death. I don't see any reason to think that, just because you can make it up and it might appeal to the mind doesn't mean it's real. In my opinion there is no meaning, but that doesn't mean you can't live through life with your own subjective morality and just accept that that's how you've decided to live because it works for you and that doesn't make it "right" or anything.

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