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TerminalGTA

Does Fate Exist, or is our future all about choice

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TerminalGTA

I would like to know what you people think about the concept of fate, the concept that at birth your "lifepath" has already been pre-ordained and that you are merely a vessel passing through what has already been set out for you.

 

Or do you have free choice, do you have the ability to make a decision.

 

This is really a hard concept really to understand especially when you bring God and religion into it. Now if you believe in both God and fate does that not mean that if your a bad person then God has expressely made you that way and that he set out for you to commit whatever you evil you commit. In this example does that not mean that indeed you never had a chance at absolution and heaven, because God set out your fate, something which you could not change.

 

Is there some of you that believe in some mixture, like a fate that somehow you can change at key points in your life. Perhaps it is more about in a gramatical context, in terms what does "fate" mean to you.

 

Also I would like the views of the scientists out there, like K2 about in the structure of time is fate a real thing, like if I went forward in time would I always see the same set of outcomes proving that indeed fate dominates our existance or would I see different outcomes each time meaning that I took different decisions.

 

Anyway this is highly hypothetical and there is no real answer, but I think it is an interesting arguement, because for those who believe in fate, why do you believe yourself powerless when you have to make choices everyday however small they may be.

 

Anyway tell me what your ideas on fate are!

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saltinespike

Depends on whether you would like to approach the debate subjectively or objectively, really. Let's start there.

Edited by saltinespike

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Cypress Hill

I don't really see any reason to think that fate exists. I don't feel "destined" to do anything, and I think that people who do generally just use fate as a way to justify their failures or to make it easier to accept hardships in life.

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D- Ice

Great topic.

 

I believe life is all about the choices you take in response to 'fate' or things that happen out of your control. I don't believe in fate as in something totally preset at birth, but more like things that happen that you can do nothing about, like being born male or female, your ethnicity, height and other characteristics you get out of your control.

I think that is more to do with variation you can't control, like where your born.

 

Also, in life, many things also happen due to chance - you are powerless to change them, or influence them. The best you can do is make the best choice in dealing with it, and that inturn has consiquences. Like if you win the lottery (due to chance) you have a choice to invest it, and get your money to increase or spend it on luxuries straightaway. each choice has a consiquence.

 

Indeed, because they are due to chance, if you go into the future - despite it being just one day, it WILL be different each time, as that thing which happened might or might not have happened, you might or might not have won the lottery.

 

In the game Max Payne he says something like:

"You are a result of the choices you make. Life is like a bolt of lightening, or intersection, that forks out, and you have to make choices as to where to go."

He implyed you only discover the choices of your action after you go throgh that path, and also those of other choices you made.

"You look back and wish you taken a different path, but thats impossible. That will be a different person also looking back and wondering about choices they made."

As you are a result of the choices you made. That is deeps and quite true, but unfortunately, we are more complicated than that. Chance also plays role in decissions we make.

 

Back to the lottery, say you go into the future, and you have also won it. However, you will be slightly sadder as youu decided not to give you old friend D -Ice a hot model to keep wink.gif , whereas the other time you decided to give me one, and get ten for yourself. You instead chose to spend it investing in Enron. lol.gif and lost all of it. Another time, Enron might win stocks and you'll be so rich you can afford all the hot bitches in the world rolleyes.gif .

 

Each of those consiquences will give you different choices to choose from, and different chances of you choosing each one. When your depressed, you'll have a smaller chance of throwing a party than if your happy.

 

Basically life is one big-ass mixture of choice, consequence and chance (with chance controlled by evil Masonic cults wink.gif ).

 

Sorry if the stuff I wrote is confusing, I tried my best with my limited English.

Anyway, great topic, rated good icon14.gif .

EDIT: There is not rating thing confused.gif .

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reptilexcq

Here's what i believe. I believe life is all about choices, it's FREE WILL....you can do whatever you want and face the consequence afterward...and you know it too! So if you do bad things and good things, you automatically know it! BUT........fate?? What is fate? Ask yourself what is fate? You mean things that meant to happen without you controlling???

 

Ok here's what i believe in fate....sometimes, during the course of one's lifetime (and it may happen to anybody), events happened (either bad or good) to a particular person in order to direct them to the right path in life. And this is control by the guardians or whatever you call it...the ones that watch over us. They sometimes intervene (without you knowing) and try to change your life around and that's why sometimes people call it miracle or fate or whatever....but if you think that fate is meant to happen...without any intervention?? Then i don't believe it. I don't believe that your life happen to be this way because it is meant to be this way all along. But i do believe that every individual have their own path of life and tend to drift toward certain destination. Like for example, some people are brought up and have that quality of being a great doctor or engineer or even a great criminal, sexually addict figure, or being a friendly person all their life. But ultimately, they all still have a choice to make...even though their choice tend to drift toward their ability.

 

So fate is never in the picture because of free will. But there are guardians out there that watch over us and can change your life subconsciously without you knowing. For example, let's say you get into a car accident and it wasn't your fault...it was somebody else. Now is this fate?? Because certainly you have no control over the accident. You try your best to avoid accident but somebody else hit you. You can call this an example of intervention by the guardian angels or you can call it bad luck, whatever you want. But understand that shyt like that happen because the watchers out there perhaps want a person to develope further and growth thru this period of traumatic accident...or want a person to go through certain obstacles in order to accomplish something in their life.

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All-Blacks

I'm kind of half and half on this matter, when things happen to me I believe it happened 'for a reason', you know how the old cliche goes. When bad things happen its to strengthen me for some challenge in the future, and when good things happen its because I really deserved it (sort of in a sense like karma). But I also like to believe our choices mean something, not that some bloke with high power has chosen my destiny.

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TerminalGTA

There are some interesting opinions on this for.

 

If say you met your future wife, that you love with every part of you at a party, but one that you probably weren't going to be there unless there were outstanding circumstances, let's say you were going to go to your sisters wedding but they split up a day before their wedding and then because of this you went to this party and ended up meeting this girl and marrying her in the future.

 

One might argue that it was your fate to go to that party and meet that girl, and that if done over and over again it would happen like that. I honestly believe that it is random chance, and coincidence. But some who are religiously minded might see this as God's will and that person lifepath.

 

In response to reptilexcq, you have an interesting idea, that guardians intervene to shape our path in some way. Now I would assume that we all have these paths and we all have these guardians. My question is if for example I was run over then why did my guardian allow that to happen, or if I died horribly. I am not a bad person, yet this happened to me. Then would that raise the point that my lifepath would be to end in devastating misery.

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shaboobala

The way my mind has grasped "fate" lately is kind-of in a 4d context. If I picture my position now and trace back my entire life it creates a continuous smudge of my existence.

 

The question for me is whether that "smudge" already extends into the future and I follow it's path or if my conscious decisions affect the direction and course. I feel more strongly that that course is already set as is the entire history of the universe and we're along for the ride.

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Saggy

Our lives have a way of being influenced by extraneous circumstances, such as living environments, social status, gender, etc. There is a very large amount of ones life that is not necessarily pre-ordained, or planned, but is likely to happen by whim or chance, and can probably be predicted base on certain variables.

 

For an example; a person in Mexico is more likely to be abducted than someone in the United States. The statistics show this; because of this, if you lived in Mexico, and you were abducted, you would have a somewhat strong argument that suggests that this part of your life was not a choice you've made.

 

This kind of leads to the problem at hand, which is fate doesn't really have a unambiguous definition, and in my opinion does exist, however, not in the sense of mythological or religious ways.

 

No matter what, the inherent nature of humanity is the concept of free will, and I think that the argument is more pivoted on this question: Do humans truly have free will?

 

The question seems kind of silly, and really just another way to discuss the greater question of hand, but I like to look at it from this point of view, as it is the side with the most evidence for it. After all, we have proof that humans will overcome certain pre-ordained living environments. The choice profession a person makes, the choice of car they drive, the type of hair cut they get, all have some type external influence on how the rest of the world will react to them

 

I always liked the notion behind the "Butterfly Effect" that every event, no matter how small, has some sort of effect on the world. A person shouts at a man five miles down the road, and angers him; the man in turn cuts off a woman who is new to town, who misses the street she is supposed to go down, causing her to break suddenly, which in turn causes the man in the car behind her to spill his coffee all over his pants, burning him, and causing him to lose his job. In the mean time, every person involved in this delicate scenario then goes through different outcomes, based on what has happened to them. For an example, the man who was initially ticked off, could've been a postal worker who massacred every single one of his co-workers in one of those "unexplained rampages" that occasionally happens.

 

To make an analogy, I think the closest thing I could compare the concept of true fate to is a Ruth Goldberg Machine (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7819628872738127458&q=Ruth+Goldberg+Machine&total=17&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0)

 

A series of complex, seemingly happen-stance steps are taken to accomplish a relatively simple goal. Different reactions occur, unlike these machines, life just sort of happens... By this method, I believe fate is actually a product of chance. Seems like a radical though, but imagine this...

 

People always make decisions to do something, whether they are influenced to do so, or have done so by suggestion, there is an inherent role of choice in a persons life. Choices do not always go to plan, or come to fruition, and this is usually do to exterior circumstances. You make the choice to go to law school, have two kids a dog and a white picket fence, however the mugger decides to stab you to death for your wallet the same night. This is a more blaring example, but I believe this system of action/reaction is the only way "fate" exists.

 

However, this system mirrors something else that fate is just a part of: Life. This system of happenstance and chance is what really makes life the system of choices and outcomes that it is. It is in extreme cases, freak occurrences, where fate is a nice way of explaining the contrast of these moments of extreme chances, from the lesser more obviously explainable occurrences.

Edited by SagaciousKJB

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TerminalGTA

I like the way you analysed that Sagacious KJB, isn't the main point of fate is that it is out of your control. Now we know that some things are out of control and may affect us, but do we really make choices or is this an illusion of something which would always happen the same way. For example take a big event such World War II, the circumstances of Hitler coming to power in Germany come out of the German economic crash, which probably comes down to a small number of German economists or companies in truth.

 

If time were replayed would it happen the same way, would there be a war in 1939-1945, with the same outcome. Was it fate that this war had to be fought, that this had to occur.

 

If I went back in time(theoritcally of course) and killed Hitler, there is an arguement that WWII would not of happened, but to be honest I can't be sure, perhaps some war much worse might of happened. Perhaps a war between Russia and America, so really hopefully without moving off topic in this example is it just coincidence that history happened this way once or if I went back in time and changed nothing would it happen differently. For example would somehow the German crash not happen, and Hitler not rise to power. Those who believe in free choice may argue that if you went back in time there would be a possibility that time would change, because there is a probability that different choices would be made, even if it is as small as a banker falls over and hurts himself not being able to get to work that day or Hitler is killed in accident. Those who believe in fate would say that no matter what history replayed would always happen that way.

 

This scenario kind of makes me think though, inherently a person would say well if human kind could of avoided World War II then that would of been best for everyone, but would it? World War II basically allowed the Axis countries to remove their dictators and replace fascist systems with democratic ones. Russia for example was clearly extremely strong at this point, but with their massive losses during World War II it took them several decades to recover. I argue that without WWII as it happened in our history, you would of had a war against the Soviet Union, and probably a nuclear war. It's almost like the Red Alert scenario. It's wierd to think that such an horrific event might of stopped an even worse event taking place in place of it.

 

 

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K^2

Don't have much time to type, so just a brief one.

 

From perspective of science, there is no freedom of choice. Best we can figure out, for any one state of the system, there is exactly one possible outcome. If you want, you can call that fate.

 

The only wrench in these gears is Quantum Mechanics. QM allows for true random events. That still gives you no freedom of choice, but it seems to allow for outcomes that are not predictable. If you want to stick to Copenhagen Interpretation, you end up with a mess of non-determenism. It is not prety, and it is why more and more people abandon it in favor of Many Worlds Interpretation, espetially when you deal with ideas of history and philosphical consequences. MWI tells you that rather than having random outcomes, Quantum events will have every possible outcome, each of which observed by different copies of the observer, resulting in world splitting. To observer, they still seem random, of course. (This is not a very precise description, but precise description involves hairy vector math. A kingdom for a LaTeX hack.)

 

With QM, there is a finite possibility of any outcome, however improbable, which means that from MWI perspective, there exists a world where any number of your decisions have been different. The interesting outcome of that is that, in my oppinion, there is no longer a difference between fate and free choice. On one hand, all your possible futures are predetermined, and you have absolutely zero impact on which one you'll end up with. On another hand, lets say you had a freedom of choice, and you end up in one of these worlds, with all the others existing nontheless. That's exactly the same outcome, so we must accept that there is no difference between having freedom of choice and not having one at all.

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reptilexcq

 

Don't have much time to type, so just a brief one.

 

From perspective of science, there is no freedom of choice. Best we can figure out, for any one state of the system, there is exactly one possible outcome. If you want, you can call that fate.

 

The only wrench in these gears is Quantum Mechanics. QM allows for true random events. That still gives you no freedom of choice, but it seems to allow for outcomes that are not predictable. If you want to stick to Copenhagen Interpretation, you end up with a mess of non-determenism. It is not prety, and it is why more and more people abandon it in favor of Many Worlds Interpretation, espetially when you deal with ideas of history and philosphical consequences. MWI tells you that rather than having random outcomes, Quantum events will have every possible outcome, each of which observed by different copies of the observer, resulting in world splitting. To observer, they still seem random, of course. (This is not a very precise description, but precise description involves hairy vector math. A kingdom for a LaTeX hack.)

 

With QM, there is a finite possibility of any outcome, however improbable, which means that from MWI perspective, there exists a world where any number of your decisions have been different. The interesting outcome of that is that, in my oppinion, there is no longer a difference between fate and free choice. On one hand, all your possible futures are predetermined, and you have absolutely zero impact on which one you'll end up with. On another hand, lets say you had a freedom of choice, and you end up in one of these worlds, with all the others existing nontheless. That's exactly the same outcome, so we must accept that there is no difference between having freedom of choice and not having one at all.

Jesus...why do you always bring in science when dealing with fate and religion...it's just pointless. If you're scientist and want to talk about science...why don't you go to science forums or something...nobody care about how Quantum Physic can predict outcome on fate. As i say science is as limited as your brain, there is no point of discussion of something that you can't comprehend to begin with....this is a matter of one's opinion discussion....don't bring shyt like science and try to back up something that you don't know to begin with...pointless!

 

Every time there is a discussion, this mojo start coming in with his science...it just make you wanna puke

Edited by reptilexcq

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reptilexcq
There are some interesting opinions on this for.

 

If say you met your future wife, that you love with every part of you at a party, but one that you probably weren't going to be there unless there were outstanding circumstances, let's say you were going to go to your sisters wedding but they split up a day before their wedding and then because of this you went to this party and ended up meeting this girl and marrying her in the future.

 

One might argue that it was your fate to go to that party and meet that girl, and that if done over and over again it would happen like that. I honestly believe that it is random chance, and coincidence. But some who are religiously minded might see this as God's will and that person lifepath.

 

In response to reptilexcq, you have an interesting idea, that guardians intervene to shape our path in some way. Now I would assume that we all have these paths and we all have these guardians. My question is if for example I was run over then why did my guardian allow that to happen, or if I died horribly. I am not a bad person, yet this happened to me. Then would that raise the point that my lifepath would be to end in devastating misery.

That's a good question. But if the guardians were to saved everybody from dying a horrible death, then there wouldn't be anymore horrible accidents in the world, would there? Everybody is happy! And this would contradict FREE WILL and people would start questioning who is controlling their life out there.

 

But back to you dying a horrible death...the reason that happen may have nothing to do with the guardians saving or not saving you...but could be through FREE WILL or just plain back luck. But i do believe that the guardians do intervene and help warn and save certain people before the accident...people that still have a destiny to fulfill...they're made aware.

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Im Rick James B**ch!
Don't have much time to type, so just a brief one.

 

From perspective of science, there is no freedom of choice. Best we can figure out, for any one state of the system, there is exactly one possible outcome. If you want, you can call that fate.

 

The only wrench in these gears is Quantum Mechanics. QM allows for true random events. That still gives you no freedom of choice, but it seems to allow for outcomes that are not predictable. If you want to stick to Copenhagen Interpretation, you end up with a mess of non-determenism. It is not prety, and it is why more and more people abandon it in favor of Many Worlds Interpretation, espetially when you deal with ideas of history and philosphical consequences. MWI tells you that rather than having random outcomes, Quantum events will have every possible outcome, each of which observed by different copies of the observer, resulting in world splitting. To observer, they still seem random, of course. (This is not a very precise description, but precise description involves hairy vector math. A kingdom for a LaTeX hack.)

 

With QM, there is a finite possibility of any outcome, however improbable, which means that from MWI perspective, there exists a world where any number of your decisions have been different. The interesting outcome of that is that, in my oppinion, there is no longer a difference between fate and free choice. On one hand, all your possible futures are predetermined, and you have absolutely zero impact on which one you'll end up with. On another hand, lets say you had a freedom of choice, and you end up in one of these worlds, with all the others existing nontheless. That's exactly the same outcome, so we must accept that there is no difference between having freedom of choice and not having one at all.

Jesus...why do you always bring in science when dealing with fate and religion...it's just pointless. If you're scientist and want to talk about science...why don't you go to science forums or something...nobody care about how Quantum Physic can predict outcome on fate. As i say science is as limited as your brain, there is no point of discussion of something that you can't comprehend to begin with....this is a matter of one's opinion discussion....don't bring shyt like science and try to back up something that you don't know to begin with...pointless!

 

Every time there is a discussion, this mojo start coming in with his science...it just make you wanna puke

Yes, why would you consider evidence? What were you thinking K^2? Of course reptilexqc personal opinion is more valid than any ideas founded from logic.

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Cypress Hill

 

There are some interesting opinions on this for.

 

If say you met your future wife, that you love with every part of you at a party, but one that you probably weren't going to be there unless there were outstanding circumstances, let's say you were going to go to your sisters wedding but they split up a day before their wedding and then because of this you went to this party and ended up meeting this girl and marrying her in the future.

 

One might argue that it was your fate to go to that party and meet that girl, and that if done over and over again it would happen like that. I honestly believe that it is random chance, and coincidence. But some who are religiously minded might see this as God's will and that person lifepath.

 

In response to reptilexcq, you have an interesting idea, that guardians intervene to shape our path in some way. Now I would assume that we all have these paths and we all have these guardians. My question is if for example I was run over then why did my guardian allow that to happen, or if I died horribly. I am not a bad person, yet this happened to me. Then would that raise the point that my lifepath would be to end in devastating misery.

That's a good question. But if the guardians were to saved everybody from dying a horrible death, then there wouldn't be anymore horrible accidents in the world, would there? Everybody is happy! And this would contradict FREE WILL and people would start questioning who is controlling their life out there.

 

But back to you dying a horrible death...the reason that happen may have nothing to do with the guardians saving or not saving you...but could be through FREE WILL or just plain back luck. But i do believe that the guardians do intervene and help warn and save certain people before the accident...people that still have a destiny to fulfill...they're made aware.

So you're saying that if these "guardians" saved everyone from horrible deaths, it would contradict free will, right? But then you said that you think they save people who have a destiny to fulfill, in which case people still don't have free will, since they would have a predetermined destiny. So either way, people don't have free will if there are such "guardians" intervening in our lives.

 

I'm curious, though, why is it that you think we have guardians overseeing our lives and ensuring that we carry out our destinies?

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K^2
Jesus...why do you always bring in science when dealing with fate and religion...it's just pointless. If you're scientist and want to talk about science...why don't you go to science forums or something...nobody care about how Quantum Physic can predict outcome on fate. As i say science is as limited as your brain, there is no point of discussion of something that you can't comprehend to begin with....this is a matter of one's opinion discussion....don't bring shyt like science and try to back up something that you don't know to begin with...pointless!

 

Every time there is a discussion, this mojo start coming in with his science...it just make you wanna puke

So you just want to make guesses based on gut feelings, happily ignoring any evidence? Of course, we cannot prove that anything we see is true, but surely, better a prediction based on observables than a random guess. No? Alright, then, keep guessing.

 

At any rate, this is why I replied:

 

Also I would like the views of the scientists out there, like K2 about in the structure of time is fate a real thing, like if I went forward in time would I always see the same set of outcomes proving that indeed fate dominates our existance or would I see different outcomes each time meaning that I took different decisions.

I feel I have a good excuse to drag in science into a discussion when I was personally invited to do so by the topic starter. You should have expected this when you read the first post, and if you dislike that angle, you need not have replied in this thread at all.

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reptilexcq
There are some interesting opinions on this for.

 

If say you met your future wife, that you love with every part of you at a party, but one that you probably weren't going to be there unless there were outstanding circumstances, let's say you were going to go to your sisters wedding but they split up a day before their wedding and then because of this you went to this party and ended up meeting this girl and marrying her in the future.

 

One might argue that it was your fate to go to that party and meet that girl, and that if done over and over again it would happen like that. I honestly believe that it is random chance, and coincidence. But some who are religiously minded might see this as God's will and that person lifepath.

 

In response to reptilexcq, you have an interesting idea, that guardians intervene to shape our path in some way. Now I would assume that we all have these paths and we all have these guardians. My question is if for example I was run over then why did my guardian allow that to happen, or if I died horribly. I am not a bad person, yet this happened to me. Then would that raise the point that my lifepath would be to end in devastating misery.

That's a good question. But if the guardians were to saved everybody from dying a horrible death, then there wouldn't be anymore horrible accidents in the world, would there? Everybody is happy! And this would contradict FREE WILL and people would start questioning who is controlling their life out there.

 

But back to you dying a horrible death...the reason that happen may have nothing to do with the guardians saving or not saving you...but could be through FREE WILL or just plain back luck. But i do believe that the guardians do intervene and help warn and save certain people before the accident...people that still have a destiny to fulfill...they're made aware.

So you're saying that if these "guardians" saved everyone from horrible deaths, it would contradict free will, right? But then you said that you think they save people who have a destiny to fulfill, in which case people still don't have free will, since they would have a predetermined destiny. So either way, people don't have free will if there are such "guardians" intervening in our lives.

 

I'm curious, though, why is it that you think we have guardians overseeing our lives and ensuring that we carry out our destinies?

It's not a predetermined destiny because you still live out your destiny through free will most of your life. But i am saying if the guardians were to saved everyone from dying, it would appear odd and contradict free will and everyone would not be afraid of dying since they know they're going to be saved.

 

Only for a specific person, not for all. Those who are respond are made aware. For example, by not being in that place at that time where tragedy occur such as getting on a plane or whatever, they may complete their life cycle in the manner they're supposed to...accidents do happen, but yet those who have a destiny to fulfill if they're not to leave this plane before this destiny is fulfilled....will be given a way out.

 

You say why is it that our guardians overseeing our lives? That's like asking why your parents care about you? They want to make sure you fulfill your destiny. Maybe the very people that they saved have almost graduated from this plane and who knows how long they stay on this plane in how many lifetime or it might be that their kids or people needed them more...or the people that they didn't save have pretty much fulfilled their destiny, have a long way to go and need to restart, or their kids can live without them.

 

It's like this...let's say you need 2 more college units to graduated and then you got into a horrible accident that's supposed to end your life. Now let's say there is another student that needed 50 units to graduated and had a similar horrible accident. Who do you think the guardians would rather save? Now because the guardians only select a few to save and not all, they're more likely to select those that needed to be saved so they can fulfill their destiny. This is just one scenario but who knows, the guardians might pick the 2nd person to save since the people that he left behind needed him more...ect., who knows what the criteria is to save a person but i do believe guardians do pick out certain people and save them!

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Saggy

I'm sorry, but I find the idea of speaking about a predetermined fate, or a destiny in such a religious way far more difficult to understand than K^2's post. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that "guardians" exist; forgive me if I'm wrong, but are you meaning to imply Guardian Angels so much? Many of the beliefs you've stated sound a lot like Guardian Angels to me; which is mostly a religious belief.

 

Through science we have demonstrated that every action has an equal and opposite reaction. What this means is that, even has you inhale, billions of tiny actions and reactions are taking place. From the chemical changes taking place on the gases to your lungs, to the resulting dilation of blood vessels, to the displacement of air as you exhale...

 

With that being said, isn't it far more reasonable to speak in the realm of chance and happenstance, than whimsical "guardians" who save people based upon their own free-will?

 

I suppose there is just a distinction between people's interpretation of fate. I don't feel that we can completely predict fate, nor do I think we can have complete control over it. Evidence, however shows, that we all learn from this action/reaction process, and that we do have the power to influence, and manipulate the course of these actions and reactions. To me, fate in a spiritual construct seems as more of a poor explanation to the odd occurrences that happen, with phrases like "miracles" when something goes well, or "God's plan" when something goes bad; neither of these investigate the cause, or the mechanics of fate, they are simply there to add either a consoling or praiseful (new word lol) commentary on the action/reaction process.

 

Scenario:

 

A stunt man wishes to perform his infamous William Tell style trick with his bittered and weary assistant. He pressures the assistant into performing the trick, regardless of past close-calls. There's a strong wind about, and the bullets being used were of sub-par quality, the apple is smaller than it usually is, and the overcast makes the contrast of his sights harder to see. He aims, fires, and kills the performer.

 

What happened?

 

Did the assistant mis-aim?

 

Did one of the inferior bullets fragment?

 

Did the assistant willfully shoot him?

 

Did the wind drag the bullet down?

 

One thing is clear amongst all the questioning, in every possible outcome, there has been an action that let up to that outcome. Perhaps he willfully killed him because he decided his pay was inferior. Perhaps overworking his assistant led him to be sloppy. Perhaps inferior bullets caused one to fragment, or the wind drug it down... In every circumstance, there is more evidence to support it as fact than:

 

A guardian decided not to save him

It was part of some magnificent plan

 

 

 

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reptilexcq
I'm sorry, but I find the idea of speaking about a predetermined fate, or a destiny in such a religious way far more difficult to understand than K^2's post. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that "guardians" exist; forgive me if I'm wrong, but are you meaning to imply Guardian Angels so much? Many of the beliefs you've stated sound a lot like Guardian Angels to me; which is mostly a religious belief.

 

Through science we have demonstrated that every action has an equal and opposite reaction. What this means is that, even has you inhale, billions of tiny actions and reactions are taking place. From the chemical changes taking place on the gases to your lungs, to the resulting dilation of blood vessels, to the displacement of air as you exhale...

 

With that being said, isn't it far more reasonable to speak in the realm of chance and happenstance, than whimsical "guardians" who save people based upon their own free-will?

 

I suppose there is just a distinction between people's interpretation of fate. I don't feel that we can completely predict fate, nor do I think we can have complete control over it. Evidence, however shows, that we all learn from this action/reaction process, and that we do have the power to influence, and manipulate the course of these actions and reactions. To me, fate in a spiritual construct seems as more of a poor explanation to the odd occurrences that happen, with phrases like "miracles" when something goes well, or "God's plan" when something goes bad; neither of these investigate the cause, or the mechanics of fate, they are simply there to add either a consoling or praiseful (new word lol) commentary on the action/reaction process.

 

Scenario:

 

A stunt man wishes to perform his infamous William Tell style trick with his bittered and weary assistant. He pressures the assistant into performing the trick, regardless of past close-calls. There's a strong wind about, and the bullets being used were of sub-par quality, the apple is smaller than it usually is, and the overcast makes the contrast of his sights harder to see. He aims, fires, and kills the performer.

 

What happened?

 

Did the assistant mis-aim?

 

Did one of the inferior bullets fragment?

 

Did the assistant willfully shoot him?

 

Did the wind drag the bullet down?

 

One thing is clear amongst all the questioning, in every possible outcome, there has been an action that let up to that outcome. Perhaps he willfully killed him because he decided his pay was inferior. Perhaps overworking his assistant led him to be sloppy. Perhaps inferior bullets caused one to fragment, or the wind drug it down... In every circumstance, there is more evidence to support it as fact than:

 

A guardian decided not to save him

It was part of some magnificent plan

Ok good luck on using your limited scientific facts when it comes to dealing with intuition and a sense of awareness.

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K^2
whimsical "guardians" who save people based upon their own free-will

What are you talking about? Guardians don't have free will. They have their own destiny and guardian guardians watching over them.

 

 

And for the record, I don't like the cause-effect principle. I have nothing against saying that two events can be interdependent, but I don't see any good reason to label the preceding event as the cause of the following event.

 

Ok good luck on using your limited scientific facts when it comes to dealing with intuition and a sense of awareness.

The fact that science is limited is exactly what makes it useful. It predicts certain things as possible, while others as impossible, which you can use to chose your actions. Principle of intuition can provide you with no such rules of action, because even if there is such thing as true intuition, you can't tell the difference between that and simply making stuff up.

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D- Ice
Don't have much time to type, so just a brief one.

 

From perspective of science, there is no freedom of choice. Best we can figure out, for any one state of the system, there is exactly one possible outcome. If you want, you can call that fate.

 

The only wrench in these gears is Quantum Mechanics. QM allows for true random events. That still gives you no freedom of choice, but it seems to allow for outcomes that are not predictable. If you want to stick to Copenhagen Interpretation, you end up with a mess of non-determenism. It is not prety, and it is why more and more people abandon it in favor of Many Worlds Interpretation, espetially when you deal with ideas of history and philosphical consequences. MWI tells you that rather than having random outcomes, Quantum events will have every possible outcome, each of which observed by different copies of the observer, resulting in world splitting. To observer, they still seem random, of course. (This is not a very precise description, but precise description involves hairy vector math. A kingdom for a LaTeX hack.)

 

With QM, there is a finite possibility of any outcome, however improbable, which means that from MWI perspective, there exists a world where any number of your decisions have been different. The interesting outcome of that is that, in my oppinion, there is no longer a difference between fate and free choice. On one hand, all your possible futures are predetermined, and you have absolutely zero impact on which one you'll end up with. On another hand, lets say you had a freedom of choice, and you end up in one of these worlds, with all the others existing nontheless. That's exactly the same outcome, so we must accept that there is no difference between having freedom of choice and not having one at all.

Read that, very interesting and enjoyable read K^2.

 

I just don't understand where the freedom of choice comes from.

Are you suggesting that IF we did have a choice, according to MWI, it has to be one of the infinite predetermined futures that have like stemmed from quantum events?

If so, the problem I have with not understanding that is, like I might want suddenly all of Microsoft's assets to simply fall from the sky onto my lap. That certainly happens in another world (according to MWI), but I have no power to go there, nor skew the chances of it happening in my favour significantly, so I have no freedom of choice.

 

If I somehow get the gift of choosing it and making it happen, I would only be changing the quantum probability it will happen, and make it more likly I become rich. However, in the 'big picture', there are still as much different MWI world with the same outcomes as before, just differing possibilities.

 

So, in the 'big picture', choice does not exist, everything is happening still the same, so choice just cancels itself out, and does not exist. It'll just lead to the same 'big picture' outcome. Besides which, I cannot have that 'gift to choose' to make the fortunes just fall on me, so choice as such does not exist according to what I understand, so how is it the same as fate?

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K^2

Freedom of choice isn't supposed to mean that you can get anything you want. It is just a question of do you have a choice, or are all your actions predetermined. So we are only talking about worlds that you would end up with depending on your own actions. And what I am saying is that there is really no difference between freedom of choice and random outcome in Many-World. Either way, you end up in one of the worlds thinking that it is your choices that got you there. You cannot tell the difference, and so you might as well go on about your life as if you do have a choice if that makes you feel better. Or, if you happen to like Nietzsche's take on it, you may think of it as not having a freedom of choice. Of course, on the large scale, it is all predetermined, but then we shouldn't be talking about copies of you in different worlds, but rather a single world in a very complex superposition.

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reptilexcq
whimsical "guardians" who save people based upon their own free-will

What are you talking about? Guardians don't have free will. They have their own destiny and guardian guardians watching over them.

 

 

And for the record, I don't like the cause-effect principle. I have nothing against saying that two events can be interdependent, but I don't see any good reason to label the preceding event as the cause of the following event.

 

Ok good luck on using your limited scientific facts when it comes to dealing with intuition and a sense of awareness.

The fact that science is limited is exactly what makes it useful. It predicts certain things as possible, while others as impossible, which you can use to chose your actions. Principle of intuition can provide you with no such rules of action, because even if there is such thing as true intuition, you can't tell the difference between that and simply making stuff up.

 

 

That's called opinion and I already make my point...I don't want to hear any scientific fact when it comes to dealing with religion and paranormal stuffs because there are none.

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K^2

First of all, Discussion and Debate is not a place for opinions. You are allowed your own, of course, but if you are expressing them here, you should be prepared for them to come under scrutiny. General Discussion is there for you to simply express opinions. D&D is home of philosophies, including natural philosophies that are sciences. You should be ready for that.

 

Second, science never shied from paranormal. Normal occurrences are more or less described by existing models, and science can keep going forward only by investigating these things that fall outside of norm. Science does not deal with metaphysical, on the other hand, by the very defenition of the word. But as the field of physics expands, things of metaphysical nature become fewer with every year.

 

When you start talking about fate, you cannot do so without touching the subjects of time flow and cause-and-effect. These subjects have been studied scientifically for a long time, and presenting the findings is cruicial in discussing the subject. Your guardian hypothesis falls under metaphysics, and I am not going to drag science into it, but I and others do have full right to question your evidence to their existence. It is not because it has anything to do with science, but because such is the treatment of subjects in Discussion and Debate.

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Otter

I'm sorry to interrupt, but the "discussion" half of this forum is all about opinion, K^2. Dismissing opinions because they conflict with your own, however reptile, is childish. If you can't stand the heat, f*ck off.

 

Or something like that. tounge.gif

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D- Ice

 

Freedom of choice isn't supposed to mean that you can get anything you want. It is just a question of do you have a choice, or are all your actions predetermined. So we are only talking about worlds that you would end up with depending on your own actions. And what I am saying is that there is really no difference between freedom of choice and random outcome in Many-World. Either way, you end up in one of the worlds thinking that it is your choices that got you there. You cannot tell the difference, and so you might as well go on about your life as if you do have a choice if that makes you feel better. Or, if you happen to like Nietzsche's take on it, you may think of it as not having a freedom of choice. Of course, on the large scale, it is all predetermined, but then we shouldn't be talking about copies of you in different worlds, but rather a single world in a very complex superposition.

So the set Quantum probabilities of each 'choice' is predetermined, thus choice actually doesn't exist. You 'choosing' it is a misconception, as it happened due to preset chance, though it is the same as MWI as you end up in a different world due to your action. That is very deep and intelligent.

I understand now, thanks to your great explanation. I appreciate that man. icon14.gif

Edited by D- Ice

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K^2

Otter, you are confused. First of all, dismissing someone else's opinion when it contradicts your own is the only rational thing to do, when the presented opinion is not supported by any kind of an argument. It doesn't necessarily mean telling to the presenter that he or she is wrong (though, that is also a way to procede, since that in itself is also merely a presentation of an opinion), but the action is to dismiss it. If there is a supporting argument, then you may weigh that argument against your own and decide whether the presented argument is worth accepting, dismissing, or if it warrants a further investigation. When someone states their opinion in a discussion, other participants of the discussion have full rights to:

1) Ask why the presenter holds such an opinion.

2) To present an alternative opinion.

You will notice that I have followed the second alternative, and expanded on my statements upon request. You may also notice that the presented argument is said to be supported by the intuition. I consider that to be a weaker argument than scientific reasoning, and thus hold on to my own opinion, while dismissing the presented one.

 

D-Ice - that's the gist of it.

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Otter

No, my ESL friend, you're the one who is confused - despite the fact that I should have a little more clear in my post.

 

The first sentence was directed at you. The second, at reptilec4k3435whatever.

 

The rational thing to do, at such an impasse, is to discuss - as opposed to flat out dismissal. Therein lies the argument... and that's exactly what you seem to be attempting to teach me, in an astronomically confusing fashion.

 

I was attempting to point out, to you, that opinion for opinion's sake is valid fodder for discussion.

Edited by Otter

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K^2

I see. You needed a comma before "reptile" in your post, then. But it makes more sense now.

 

Still, I'm going to disagree with you on the discussion of opinions. I won't argue that there are some opinions an argument for which is clear from the opinion itself. These can be replied to right away, because a conter-argument can be constructed with no other information provided. However, that is not generally the case. When a person claims that there are guardians that watch over your fate, it is impossible to deduce any kind of supporting argument from that alone. That opinion, in itself, cannot be a basis for a discussion. As there is nothing to discuss, the opinion can be dismissed. You may ask the person presenting the opinion for a supporting argument, and if one is provided, it may become grounds for discussion, but until that argument is presented, the opinion can be happily dismissed.

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Im Rick James B**ch!

I do not believe in freedom, nor do i believe in fate. I believe our lives our dictated by chance.

 

We inherent a particular phenotype based on chance, not on choice. We are born into a particular family by chance, not by choice. With this established we must consider what determines us. The following influence one's self (nature and nurture):

- Phenotype --------------------------------------------Out of one's control

- Other Life (Past and Present) ---------------------- Out of one's control

- Scientific laws --------------------------------------- Out of one's control

- Instincts ie. to survive ------------------------------ Out of one's control

- The physical environment we inhabit ------------- Out of one's control

 

 

This is a simplified model. In reality these constituents form a complex relationship. The elements of this model should be thought of as broard overlapping categorize rather than specific elements of life. When extensively examining these categorizes they may seem paradoxical and somewhat confusing. Nevertheless, i do not feel that this compromises their validity. If you would like me to elaborate to how these our "out of one's control", feel free to ask.

 

As elucidated, one's self is determined by chance. One's nature and nurture (or "who they are?") determine a "choice" one makes. If this is true and one's self in dictated by chance, than how does choice/freedom exist? It doesn't.

 

 

I consider this chance more than faith or destiny. Such terms carry connotations of a higher being, an ideology which i reject.

 

The facet of this concept which i enjoy are the ethical connotations. People say "it's not their fault they were born different." If the chance concept is embraced, than is anything anyones fault. Not really. Should people therefore be excused of their actions? People who make these claims would believe so. Personally, i think the opposite. I feel this gives me authority to treat those who were born different the same respect as those who have grown different. Authority to treat them as inferior. Of course, falling below the ethical standard which society has created would presumably defy genetic instinct. In conclusion, it is my best interests to ignore all conclusions relating to this topic. Any topic which inspires contradiction with my instinct should be avoided.

Edited by Im Rick James B**ch!

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