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ablestar

Abortions

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Ph3L1z14n0
Unnecessary, yes. Unless, of course, there is a medical problem. But then again, getting pregnant in the first place is unnecessary. All these people who are protesting against abortions should instead use their time more productively in promoting various birth control methods. Even in case of a rape, except for cases of captivity, there is an option for emergency contraception (morning-after pill). These things are nearly as effective as some of the primary contraception methods. A lot of pregnancies are caused by people simply not understanding what contraception options are available and how they need to be used.

I don't know what kind of problem could make abortion necessary, even children with muscular distrophia who live less than 20 years have all the right to be born.

 

And of course, education is primary to even avoid the unnecessary situation of getting pregnant, still, some people just do what they can, if i don't like abortion i should protest, not all of us can sit down and start researching a better contraceptive, i know what you mean, but it's just something that people do, people protest because their country allows them, and it's good.

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Eviscero

Once again, comparing people to animals is stupid. And your whole argument there falls right the f*ck apart when you realize "hey, I can't just go around killing animals for no reason. If I walked outside and shot my neighbor's dog, I'd be arrested!"

 

And k^2 I've seen you post some dumb things, but this "scentience" bullsh*t takes the cake. First of all, it's sentience. Second of all, sentience is defined as, and I quote wikipedia, "Sentience refers to utilization of sensory organs, the ability to feel or perceive subjectively, not necessarily including the faculty of self-awareness." It goes on to elaborate that sentience in animals is generally defined as the ability to suffer or feel pain. So animals are sentient and fetuses are not.

 

But who gives a sh*t, because sentience has nothing to do with whether or not it's okay to kill something. If someone is paralyzed in a car accident and has lost all feeling in their body, it is not okay to kill them. If someone is in a coma, it is not okay to kill them. At this point, these people are not sentient beings.

 

Do you understand?

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Otter

I think you have a flawed understanding of sentience, Eviscero, or at least the definition that K^2 is referring to - the wikipedia article refers to it as sapience.

 

Are there studies of brain activity in the fetus?

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K^2

 

Once again, comparing people to animals is stupid.  And your whole argument there falls right the f*ck apart when you realize "hey, I can't just go around killing animals for no reason.  If I walked outside and shot my neighbor's dog, I'd be arrested!"

 

And k^2 I've seen you post some dumb things, but this "scentience" bullsh*t takes the cake.  First of all, it's sentience.  Second of all, sentience is defined as, and I quote wikipedia, "Sentience refers to utilization of sensory organs, the ability to feel or perceive subjectively, not necessarily including the faculty of self-awareness."  It goes on to elaborate that sentience in animals is generally defined as the ability to suffer or feel pain.  So animals are sentient and fetuses are not. 

 

But who gives a sh*t, because sentience has nothing to do with whether or not it's okay to kill something.  If someone is paralyzed in a car accident and has lost all feeling in their body, it is not okay to kill them.  If someone is in a coma, it is not okay to kill them.  At this point, these people are not sentient beings.

 

Do you understand?

Ability to feel pain is irrelevant. Hydra will feel pain. It is ability to place pain as an outcome of interaction with various hazards in the environment and ability to then plan the course of action that avoids such hazards, and therefore pain that is of importance.. Yes, a lot of animals will qualify for the basic requirement, and so will an unborn fetus, but there is also a degree to which they qualify. For a fetus, that degree will depend on the term. Early on, its responses to pain will be simple reflexes. I do not see why you should think more of killing that than of killing some insects with pesticide. As the brain of the fetus develops, its responses will become more complex. At that point, it should be protected legally, but still not on the level of murder. Only very late in pregnancy should the distinction between abortion and murder go away.

 

And yeah, you will get arrested for killing your neighbor's dog. But at the same time dogs are being put down in dog pounds all over, and you can get a license to go into a forest and shoot various animals for your own entertainment. I'm not even talking about killing for food, that's just universal. An early fetus has no more right to live than a deer in the forest.

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GTAplaya44344
I abortions are a disgusting way of ending a life. You dont give that fetus a chance to become a human being, just kill it off. It makes me very sad and angry!. Just becasue of your stupid carelessness (not using a condom), a child who will never be given the gift of life ever again. The only time i would agree with a abortion is if there is something detected pre-hand like a mental problem (autism ect.) it is sick and disgusting AARHHHHH. I know that i am not in control of ppl's wombs but it is just not fair!.

 

Be against abortions! (I am not trying to post propaganda or anything!)

I agree 100% with that yah I know if your jerking off it is killing sperm but there not really human but a fetus is extremely close to a human being and even looks like one so I do think aborian is messed up and is just stupid!

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Ph3L1z14n0
And k^2 I've seen you post some dumb things, but this "scentience" bullsh*t takes the cake.  First of all, it's sentience.  Second of all, sentience is defined as, and I quote wikipedia, "Sentience refers to utilization of sensory organs, the ability to feel or perceive subjectively, not necessarily including the faculty of self-awareness."  It goes on to elaborate that sentience in animals is generally defined as the ability to suffer or feel pain.  So animals are sentient and fetuses are not. 

 

But who gives a sh*t, because sentience has nothing to do with whether or not it's okay to kill something.  If someone is paralyzed in a car accident and has lost all feeling in their body, it is not okay to kill them.  If someone is in a coma, it is not okay to kill them.  At this point, these people are not sentient beings.

 

Do you understand?

Ability to feel pain is irrelevant. Hydra will feel pain. It is ability to place pain as an outcome of interaction with various hazards in the environment and ability to then plan the course of action that avoids such hazards, and therefore pain that is of importance.. Yes, a lot of animals will qualify for the basic requirement, and so will an unborn fetus, but there is also a degree to which they qualify. For a fetus, that degree will depend on the term. Early on, its responses to pain will be simple reflexes. I do not see why you should think more of killing that than of killing some insects with pesticide. As the brain of the fetus develops, its responses will become more complex. At that point, it should be protected legally, but still not on the level of murder. Only very late in pregnancy should the distinction between abortion and murder go away.

 

And yeah, you will get arrested for killing your neighbor's dog. But at the same time dogs are being put down in dog pounds all over, and you can get a license to go into a forest and shoot various animals for your own entertainment. I'm not even talking about killing for food, that's just universal. An early fetus has no more right to live than a deer in the forest.

Dude, do RESEARCH, don't use wikipedia, it is NOT a reliable source

 

And i agree a little with what K^2 says, deers have all the right to live, but the LAW is for us, it's for humanity, unfortunately some assholes on the government did thought hunting is fun and approved it, but that is not the subject, killing insects with pesticides is very different when throwing salt on a fetus so that it burns, it is true, it is a medical aborting proceddure, or poking the baby with a thin metal bar.

 

It's not only just the debate of aborting or not aborting, there is also a problem with the methods of abortion, they are barbaric, and are approved by the medicine, one big WTF for that!

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manofpeace

An "unborn fetus" is not even a human! It's semi-human, it's a diet human, it's a sperm that turned into an egg. If she doesn't want stretch marks, let her take out the little wiggly. If she wants to keep it, let her. If she wants to take it out, but you need a kid, don't let her take it out, etc. It's all about choice and common sense. Does the name "fetus" sound like a human name? No. It sounds like a bug or a strange animal. This is a boring battle, guys.

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Otter
An "unborn fetus" is not even a human! It's semi-human, it's a diet human, it's a sperm that turned into an egg. If she doesn't want stretch marks, let her take out the little wiggly. If she wants to keep it, let her. If she wants to take it out, but you need a kid, don't let her take it out, etc. It's all about choice and common sense. Does the name "fetus" sound like a human name? No. It sounds like a bug or a strange animal. This is a boring battle, guys.

Well, you sure stumbled into the wrong neighborhood.

 

A fetus is human, the question remaining is, is the fetus a person? And if not, where does the separation lie?

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K^2

 

It's not only just the debate of aborting or not aborting, there is also a problem with the methods of abortion, they are barbaric, and are approved by the medicine, one big WTF for that!

That I agree with. Rabid dogs often get better treatment when being put down. But again, part of this blame is on these opposed to abortion in the first place. Try to get research funding for better ways to abort. You'll have protestors surround your home within hours.

 

A fetus is human, the question remaining is, is the fetus a person? And if not, where does the separation lie?

A very good way to put it. I think we need much better guidelines on what does and does not constitute a person. Preferably, something future proof, in case we do find that we are not alone in the universe, learn to talk to dolphins, or just figure out how to give these blasted machines some intelligence.

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manofpeace
An "unborn fetus" is not even a human! It's semi-human, it's a diet human, it's a sperm that turned into an egg. If she doesn't want stretch marks, let her take out the little wiggly. If she wants to keep it, let her. If she wants to take it out, but you need a kid, don't let her take it out, etc. It's all about choice and common sense. Does the name "fetus" sound like a human name? No. It sounds like a bug or a strange animal. This is a boring battle, guys.

Well, you sure stumbled into the wrong neighborhood.

 

A fetus is human, the question remaining is, is the fetus a person? And if not, where does the separation lie?

 

manofpeace backs away slowly and hides behind Gen. Chat before the big kids hit him with knowledge paddles.

Hmm.... a human is just the biological exact of a person, but not spiritual. A dead guy is a human, but maybe a soul is what makes humans people? But a fetus is alive, so it's a person. You guys can figure it out, I don't know what the hell I'm talking about.

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K^2

I'd be happy to debate the merits of including a posession of a soul as a test for someone/something being a person as soon as you a) Provide a clean defenition of a soul, and b) Describe a good way of testing whether someone/something has a soul.

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Otter

...and this is where I bid the conversation farewell.

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M. H. Hunter III

I see you stance on the whole idea....myslef i am a pro-choice person.

I belive the mother should be able to terminate set baby when she ahs full mental capaillities to do so.

 

But heres a new theory on Abortions for you.

Typical you think, 1st/2nd trisemester to abort the fetus, correct?

 

Well i remember way back in my college days, there was this thery by a professor (not one of my own) that said, that abortion should be allowed throughout the entire pregnancy, and the should be able to still about the baby up until it developed it's cohearence. That is walking/talking, in a pretty good way.

 

 

Now thats a idea we all, or most never heard of before. I can honestly say that blows my mind, as i have a 4 months old neice that i see everyday, and she is getting smarter with everyday. But under this theroy, if my sister wanted to, could abort my dear defenceless neice, which would be obviously terrible.

 

confused.gif

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*gta star*

 

I abortions are a disgusting way of ending a life. You dont give that fetus a chance to become a human being, just kill it off. It makes me very sad and angry!. Just becasue of your stupid carelessness (not using a condom), a child who will never be given the gift of life ever again. The only time i would agree with a abortion is if there is something detected pre-hand like a mental problem (autism ect.) it is sick and disgusting AARHHHHH. I know that i am not in control of ppl's wombs but it is just not fair!.

 

Be against abortions! (I am not trying to post propaganda or anything!)

 

Abortion for me is wrong, like you said, careless things, like not using a Condom can cause this. The sad thing is, people don't realise how much of a responsibility a child actually is, they think they can handle it, they might be tight for money, but realise that they don't have enough to pay for a child's food, clothes etc.

 

I know it's sad, everyone isn't rich, everyone has problems, but before you have a child, make sure that you are totally sure that you can handle the pressure, and pay for its needs.

 

One thing that really annoys me though, is people that find out that there is something wrong with their child, and it might be disabled, then they actually abort the child. I think that is totally wrong, a child may be disabled, but it can still live a life.

 

In some ways though, abortion can be the only way for someone to escape something. I know it's a quick an easy way out, but if a parent knows that they can't afford a child, sometimes, they think it's their only option.

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K^2
One thing that really annoys me though, is people that find out that there is something wrong with their child, and it might be disabled, then they actually abort the child. I think that is totally wrong, a child may be disabled, but it can still live a life.

From the perspective of genetic pool, that is the only thing to do at that point. Of course, the trully responcible thing to do is to have you and your partner tested for carying known genetic defects before having a child.

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Ph3L1z14n0
From the perspective of genetic pool, that is the only thing to do at that point.

dude, you better explain yourself because that sh*t sounds like euthanasia to me confused.gif

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nlitement

 

From the perspective of genetic pool, that is the only thing to do at that point.

dude, you better explain yourself because that sh*t sounds like euthanasia to me confused.gif

You do get his point? A disabled person would get cast off the gene pool in nature.

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Otter
From the perspective of genetic pool, that is the only thing to do at that point.

dude, you better explain yourself because that sh*t sounds like euthanasia to me confused.gif

I think you mean eugenics, and I don't think he needs to explain himself. There's no room for moral grandstanding around here, aye?

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Ph3L1z14n0

 

I think you mean eugenics, and I don't think he needs to explain himself.  There's no room for moral grandstanding around here, aye?

Thanks for the correct translation, now i can confidently say that we are NOT living in the 1800's, were eugenics was on it's prime with social darwinism, in more simple words, f*ck that, even disabled people have the right to live, if a deer, like you said K^2, has a right to live equal to that of a fetus, then why shouldn't a down syndrome kid live OVER YOU? you might said because there's no problem with you, but in reality there is no problem with the other kid too, IT'S US who have a problem with disabled people.

 

That's one of the other problems of abortion, we keep thinking we have the right to decide who lives and who doesn't, WE DON'T, it's simple

Edited by Ph3L1z14n0

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Otter

In the eyes of someone having an abortion, they aren't killing anyone - they're ending the pregnancy before it becomes someone. In that sense, they aren't deciding who has the right to live, rather, what embryo they wish to become their child.

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K^2
Thanks for the correct translation, now i can confidently say that we are NOT living in the 1800's, were eugenics was on it's prime with social darwinism, in more simple words, f*ck that, even disabled people have the right to live, if a deer, like you said K^2, has a right to live equal to that of a fetus, then why shouldn't a down syndrome kid live OVER YOU? you might said because there's no problem with you, but in reality there is no problem with the other kid too, IT'S US who have a problem with disabled people.

If a deer is disabled, it will get eaten or die by some other means. I don't have a problem with disabled people living their lives, but if you have a serious genetic defect, you at very least have an obligation not to reproduce.

 

In case of a fetus, abortion seems like a reasonable solution, as long as it's done early enough in the pregnancy. After birth, sterilization by vasectomy or tubal ligation are good solutions. If disability does not prevent sexual activity, neither will these procedures, but reproduction will be impossible. Same goes for anyone who is a known carrier. Carriers can still have children, even with other known carriers, as long as it is done by in vitro fertilization, and with genetic testing of the resulting embryo before implantation.

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Eviscero

Mortukai gets banned and this thing turns to absolute mindless garbage. Go figure dozingoff.gif

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Otter
Mortukai gets banned and this thing turns to absolute mindless garbage. Go figure dozingoff.gif

You have anything to add to the conversation, or did you just drop by to call us all idiots? tounge.gif

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norniron

You should realise that the vast majority of abortions take place prior to 12 weeks from conception and conception is only judged not from the estimated date of the egg being fertilised but from the date of the woman's last period, so it'susually 1-3 weeks prior to the egg being fertilised (ie never a 12 week old feotus). The egg being fertilised is just that, it's a fertilised egg, not a baby yet, it has no arms and legs, no brain. It is normally aborted by taking 2 pills on the same day with the egg being small enough to pass through in the next period or by a vacuum inserted into the woman and being gently sucked out. The only pain in this instance is on the woman involved.

The chances are you have ate a fertilised chicken egg at some stage.

If people think that these abortions involve little babys with arms and legs swinging around they are wrong, at 12 weeks it's grapesized with no features one would assume a healthy baby to have.

And for those of you who are morally outraged and disgusted, well I guess you know each and every situation of those numbers involved, if the site is to believed that is?

Why not leave it up to the woman who is personally affected (along with the support of her partner if she has one) whose life would change forever and whose circumstances we don't know of, each and every individual case is different and until you yourself are pregnant and have to face the harsh reality of what it entails then be a little more understanding (you could have to help someone make a choice one day), who are we to tell any woman she shouldn't get rid of a fertilised egg?

 

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Ph3L1z14n0
if you have a serious genetic defect, you at very least have an obligation not to reproduce.

I think you wouldn't blame a family member of yours for reproducing if you had a genetic problem dozingoff.gif

 

and what constitutes a SERIOUS genetic problem? so my dad's family is shortsighted, enough to live on blind people well fare, does that mean that no family member of mine deserves a child? NO, as long as people know what they getting too and have the will to raise a child with dissabilities, there should be no problem.

 

WE....DON'T....HAVE.....THE.....RIGHT.....TO......DECIDE......WHO.....LIVES......OR.....WHO.....DOESN'T

 

hope it's clear enough colgate.gif

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nlitement

 

if you have a serious genetic defect, you at very least have an obligation not to reproduce.

I think you wouldn't blame a family member of yours for reproducing if you had a genetic problem dozingoff.gif

 

and what constitutes a SERIOUS genetic problem? so my dad's family is shortsighted, enough to live on blind people well fare, does that mean that no family member of mine deserves a child? NO, as long as people know what they getting too and have the will to raise a child with dissabilities, there should be no problem.

 

WE....DON'T....HAVE.....THE.....RIGHT.....TO......DECIDE......WHO.....LIVES......OR.....WHO.....DOESN'T

 

hope it's clear enough colgate.gif

You didn't get the point: severely genetically defected creatures wouldn't survive in the nature. The only reason they're alive is that their defect was discovered only after birth and that technological advancement supports these people. Do you know why they'd die in nature? Because nature is about progression, it does not want undesirable traits. Even if the person wouldn't die, they couldn't find anyone to mate with. Thanks to modern technological advancement once again, though we can either destine the person the way nature would or the way your conscience would.

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K^2
WE....DON'T....HAVE.....THE.....RIGHT.....TO......DECIDE......WHO.....LIVES......OR.....WHO.....DOESN'T

And yet we do it all the time. We decide the laws which may put someone to death. We decide if we want to fight wars. We decide how much we want to spend on medical research and the medical help for the poor. We decide if we want to research new ways of producing food. We decide on support to poor countries. For all we know, you might have decided someone's fate when you didn't drop a dime in a beggar's cup. For someone who has no right to decide, we do it all the frigin' time. And that isn't lives that are for all intents and purposes just plants. These are true human beings with dreams, goals, feelings. If you want to save lives, look at the stats of deaths due to diseases, wars, famine. Compare it to the abortions, and go solve a real problem.

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*gta star*

 

From the perspective of genetic pool, that is the only thing to do at that point. Of course, the trully responcible thing to do is to have you and your partner tested for carying known genetic defects before having a child.

 

Being disabled isn't necessarily always genetic, there are some children who are born, who have healthy guardians (no problems) and can still be disabled. Something can go wrong at birth for example, or abnormal growth in the womb.

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Ph3L1z14n0
severely genetically defected creatures wouldn't survive in the nature.

doesn't matter, it's like shooting down a horse because he broke his leg, it's unfair, we can't decide the fate of another human being, nature may be progressive, but for example, a deer with a broken leg wouldn't need to run away from hunters if WE DID NOT hunt animals in the first place

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Ph3L1z14n0
And yet we do it all the time. We decide the laws which may put someone to death. We decide if we want to fight wars. We decide how much we want to spend on medical research and the medical help for the poor. We decide if we want to research new ways of producing food. We decide on support to poor countries. For all we know, you might have decided someone's fate when you didn't drop a dime in a beggar's cup. For someone who has no right to decide, we do it all the frigin' time. And that isn't lives that are for all intents and purposes just plants. These are true human beings with dreams, goals, feelings. If you want to save lives, look at the stats of deaths due to diseases, wars, famine. Compare it to the abortions, and go solve a real problem.

Man, it is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT to research new ways for feeding people and putting a living being to death, the problem lies in FORCE, my problem is what happens when you forcibly kill someone, you didn't give the person choice, NOW i know it's a little ambigous, but abortion doesn't really give choice.

 

About "solving the real problem" is something that should be taken in account too, even though i am against abortion, i also believe that a grown up middle aged man has the same rights as an unborn baby.

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