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saltinespike

How we know there is no God.

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Otter

I think I fall into the gray area between K^2 and Svip. And that's what it all comes down to, until we have concrete evidence either way. Gray area.

 

K^2 has this romantic notion of the universe that I just can't submit to, because - and you'll have to agree with me here - we can't see the light at the end of the tunnel. We can't see a computer "thinking" like a man. We can't see the mathematical perfection of the Universe. All we can see are the road signs. They're all very supportive of our theories, hopes, and fantasies... but they require a degree of blind faith.

 

And I find this, oddly enough, to contradict his position that we can't possibly know anything - a position that he argued in another thread.

 

Until we can recreate a human brain with a computer, we only only theoretically do so. Not too long ago, people believed they could theoretically turn lead into gold. For a guy who believes that what we don't know infinitely dwarves what we do, you place a lot of faith in theory.

 

How can you argue blind faith with blind faith of your own?

 

And while I believe that you're correct, and that computers will eventually surpass the intelligence of man - I can't refute Svip's claims that it will never happen.

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saltinespike
Thing is, though, most people with religious beliefs don't ask questions about it. They avoid debate, and certainly topics like this because they want their fragile faith to be true, and won't actively find ways to have it disproven.

 

People are capable of lying to themselves you know, ignoring facts.

But, alas, this is a debate forum and all who debate are subject to it. Your observation does not apply here. wink.gif

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Zhavric

You're discussing the existence of god on a GTA forum?

 

That's gayer than Nathan Lane & Richard Simmons in San Fran.

 

 

 

 

I'm the guy Salty quoted. I'll post my thoughts on this thread tomorrow after I stop laughing at you.

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Bigs

Honestly, I didn't have time to read all the replies here, but this is how I feel on the issue:

 

I think the religions of today are bs. I believe in evolution, the big bang, etc. I would consider myself an atheist-leaning agnostic. But then I think of all the stuff we don't know about the universe. I think about what happened before the big bang, before singularity, and what set those things in motion. That's when I get to feeling like maybe there is a 'higher force' of sorts. The Earth is positioned so perfectly in relation to it's distance from the Sun, it's climate/terrain, the position of it's moon. It just makes me wonder. I mean, I trust science for the most part. But I'm not going to put 100% assurance on what a man in present day says about an event that happened billions upon billions of years ago. That's where my insecurity with atheism comes in.

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Im Rick James B**ch!
You're discussing the existence of god on a GTA forum?

 

That's gayer than Nathan Lane & Richard Simmons in San Fran.

 

 

 

 

I'm the guy Salty quoted. I'll post my thoughts on this thread tomorrow after I stop laughing at you.

Oh, so your the guy ignorant enough to believe that God can be disproved?

 

What is gay about discussing God on a GTA forum? Like most forums this one extends beyond the site's subject.

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Zhavric

A few things I wanted to reply to having skimmed through the thread:

 

Is god so bad?

 

In a word, yes. A wise man once said with or without god you'd have good people doing good things and bad people doing bad things, but it takes religion to get good people to do bad things. Religion has been and continues to be used as a motivator / justification for war, violence and intolerance. Think there'd be as many suicide attacks in Iraq without Islam?

 

God's existence is unprovable.

 

Of course god's existence isn't unprovable. God either EXISTS or DOESN'T EXIST. One or the other. Not both. Not none of the above. He's either out there or he's not. Because of that, it's a scientific question which we can approach logically.

 

As for science, it doesn't even try to prove things absolutely.

 

Ironically, this is an absolute statement.

 

Your claim is that a creator that created laws of physics cannot break them? You have no grounds at all to make such a claim.

 

You're looking at the issue wrong. "God exists" is a scientific hypothesis which lacks evidence AND implies energy can be created. Conservation of Energy is a supported scientific law. We have to go with what's proven. I'm open to examining EVIDENCE Conservation of Energy is wrong, but I'm under no obligation to discard it because someone CLAIMED it had an exception.

 

Do you think Superman is an "exception" to the laws of gravity? No? He's fictitonal? Then why is god an exception to CoE?

 

But to say that any form of intelligence requires neurons specifically is ridiculous.

 

It's far less ridiculous than stating a super-intelligence existed at the beginning of the universe... and not having any evidence to support it.

 

You see things can be possible AND false at the same time. It's possible intelligence exists beyond a human brain. It's false to say such an intelligence exists (evidence is required).

 

Sure, life adapted to the Earth. If what my understanding is correct, that's the basic point of evolutionism. I'm saying that the odds of all these things happening to eventually form mankind are astronomical. It's almost an impossiblity.

 

So, the intelligence exibited by mankind evidences a creator? Since (by your definition) god is intelligent, his intelligence must also evidence a creator.

 

Here in is the problem with a designer: it can NEVER be a long term answer. A designer always requires a designer (or a cop out / logical fallacy).

 

Absolutely anything is possible.

 

What a silly thing to say?

 

Anything, without qualifyers, MUST apply to the paradoxical and the impossible. Thus, you've stated "Absolutely anything is possible including the impossible."

 

This negates the term "impossible". It's useless under this logic. You're also allowing all sorts of paradoxes like married batchelors and square circles.

 

Instead let us qualify the statement with anything that does not pose a paradox is possible so long as there is sound evidence supporting it.

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saltinespike

 

God's existence is unprovable.

 

Of course god's existence isn't unprovable. God either EXISTS or DOESN'T EXIST. One or the other. Not both. Not none of the above. He's either out there or he's not. Because of that, it's a scientific question which we can approach logically.

You basically nailed it for me, but one thing I'd like to address:

 

I am pretty sure that he meant that our knowledge is in the gray area between proven and unproven, for we can do neither. All we can do is speculate, basing our arguments off of logic and rationality, but could not support them by cold hard facts.

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Otter

Yes. And electrons are either waves or particles.

 

Depending on your perspective, of course.

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Im Rick James B**ch!

 

Of course god's existence isn't unprovable. God either EXISTS or DOESN'T EXIST.

Obviously he either does or dose not exist, but evidence can never prove either. Proof = 100% certainty. Nothing can be proven because nothing is 100% true. It can be close to 100%, but never so. What if evolution was proven (as to your understanding of the word). This would not conclude actual proof because is their not a chance that your whole perception of reality is false?

 

As for your "Is God so Bad?" argument, it is rather childish to label people as good or bad. What is "good" or "bad" is interpretive. Thus, the criteria for something to be "good" or "bad" varies from person to person. This makes it impossible, within my perception of reality, for someone to be considered universally good or bad.

 

I know you were quoting the "wise" man, but i just wanted to establish that. Your actual argument of religion motivating war was valid. But to say "God is bad" is ignorant. Opposing beliefs that define how others should live are bad (I relate the term "bad" to what i believe to be contradictory to your ethical standards (standards which i have concluded from your post)). Belief in God is merely an example of a belief which opposes another. It is impossible, within my perception of reality, to have a world without opposing belief that attempt to define how others should live. I can elaborate on this if you like.

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TerminalGTA

The title of this topic seems rather optimistic in my opinion. There will never ever be proof that God doesn't exist. For example you can put as much science in front of true believer and they would merely say that God created the proof.

 

My only problem with the whole God notion is that its generally based on teachings of "humans", now while I do not refute that some of these people may have been amazing people. I doubt any of them met God, and even if they did, how can they speak for an all powerful, all knowing being. How can such imperfection represent supposed pure perfection. The very fact that the Bible, Qu'aran, etc were written by human beings no better than you or I really says why these scriptures have so many mistakes and inconsistencies in it.

 

The very flaw in believing in God is the human element of it not the God element of it. When a religion begins to tell me why I should do something and how I should do something and says that it is God's will then I begin to think, "Well that's all well and good but when did God tell you that" and for that matter what makes these people the authority of knowing God anyway.

 

How can a priest represent God, in fact the more you think about the more farcical it gets. None of these people ever claimed to have directly talked to God, yet they make decisions on his behalf.

 

That is why I think there should be a due separation between God and Religion, and I think the question should be "How we know Religion does not represent God?" It has a simple answer, they haven't talked God, it's their interpretation of what God would want and using an old book as proof does not really cut the mustard. Where is the proof that it is the word of God. For all I know Dan Brown's Da Vinci Code could be the word of God or Salman Rushdie's Satanic Verses.

 

So in conclusion, religion is a poor at best representation of God because none of these religions actually claim to talk God! So really religions are people who follow rules not of a great deity that created us, but you are following the rules of an organisation set up to represent something they cannot represent. Therefore essentially religion is built on lies and mistruths

 

- On a side note however believing in God then really becomes a matter of believing, not really acting in any specific manner. However having said that you may as well believe in the almight Jedi Warrior Garlh and his massive sword because there as much evidence he exists as God's existance.

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Zhavric
Nothing can be proven because nothing is 100% true.

I stopped reading at "nothing can be proven". The statement is a paradox because it applies to itself. By your logic, "It cannot be proven that nothing can be proven".

 

Congratulations: you've just failed Philosophy 101.

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Im Rick James B**ch!

Although i have not grammatically expressed it, i would assume that you would realize it was an opinion and therefore not a paradox. Don't skirt the issue.

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Mitza_003

Is there God, or is that something that was made up? Personally, i don't know. I grew up with the idea that He exists, and my point is that it's kinda' hard too lose faith. I believe that God exists, but until real evidence and facts, i won't change my mind. sly.gif

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saltinespike
Is there God, or is that something that was made up? Personally, i don't know. I grew up with the idea that He exists, and my point is that it's kinda' hard too lose faith. I believe that God exists, but until real evidence and facts, i won't change my mind. sly.gif

Sounds like an excuse to me, to be honest. I too grew up (until about 10) in a VERY Christian household, yet I am an atheist.

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Archaon, Lord of End Times

I'm so f*cking tired of atheist bullsh*t. I'm so ashamed to be apart of the generation who's lost belief. I think it'd be better if the entire religious debate was dropped and left people to their own beliefs.

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Otter
I'm so f*cking tired of atheist bullsh*t. I'm so ashamed to be apart of the generation who's lost belief. I think it'd be better if the entire religious debate was dropped and left people to their own beliefs.

You tell us that you're ashamed of us - but you don't want to discuss it? More than one "paradox" floating around in here.

 

I'm tired of people telling me that they know what's going to happen to me when I die. I'm tired of people judging me because I don't behave within the purview of their warped notions of morality. I'm tired of weak-willed individuals proclaiming their beliefs as gospel just so they can grapple with their own mortality.

 

And most of all? I'm sick and tired of tax breaks and public funding for organised f*cking brainwashing. I make it a point to collect as many pamphlettes and posters for religious salvation as I can in a day, because I need something to start a fire with when I go camping.

 

I'm glad you've got your faith. That's great. Scientology was founded as slap in the face to organised religion, yet those f*ckers have found their faith, too. Great. Just don't point your finger at me, and tell me you're ashamed of our generation, if you're not ready to back it up.

 

I'm going to go run outside in a thunderstorm now, so if I've angered your paedophile of a god, he can feel free to strike me down.

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Hope
I'm so f*cking tired of atheist bullsh*t. I'm so ashamed to be apart of the generation who's lost belief. I think it'd be better if the entire religious debate was dropped and left people to their own beliefs.

Atheism has been around longer than our generation. Atheism was around when people first created the idea that there is a god. It's always been there. It's not like the belief in god came before Atheism - they came at the same time.

 

So you want people to stop debating religion in a "Debates & Discussion" forum? That'd just never happen, and there's no point to it happening. Without debating/discussing, humans would have never evolved to the point we are at now. You voting for silence is voting for regression, terrible devolution.

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Zhavric
Although i have not grammatically expressed it, i would assume that you would realize it was an opinion and therefore not a paradox. Don't skirt the issue.

What the hell kinda bullsh1t backpeddling reply is that? "It's my OPINION that nothing can be proven so it's OKAY that I said that and I didn't really mean it lol!"

 

Why don't you stop spamming words onto the page, take a few moments to organize your thoughts, and say what you mean. So far, there's no reason to reply to your post because YOU defeated your argument when you declared it cannot be proven.

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Zhavric
I'm so f*cking tired of atheist bullsh*t. I'm so ashamed to be apart of the generation who's lost belief. I think it'd be better if the entire religious debate was dropped and left people to their own beliefs.

You know what I'm sick of?

 

I'm sick of the 1600 year old institutionalized cult that tries to keep its' bullsh1t non-existent godman relevant. I'm sick of the slightly newer club for militant durkas that like to blow themselves up and take our troops with them.

 

I'm sick of intelligent adults who are too indoctrinated to realize they're the victim of a millenia old scam. I'm tired of people who don't believe in evolution deciding who gets to be president. I'm tired of being told I'm a bad person because I don't have an imaginary friend.

 

I'm sick of people who blieve in a comic jewish zombie who was his own father thinking their views are rational.

 

I'm sick of thinking about the billions of people motivated to kill because of religion.

 

You're sick of atheists? Well, after 1600+ years of Christianity's pageantry of child molesting warmongering I can say with great satisfaction that you should go live on a compound and stop inflicting your douchebaggery on the rest of the rational world.

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TerminalGTA

To be honest, is this not a little pointless.

 

I would say that while atheists probably have a more rational view than Christians, there is very little solace in this. Especially when you have a view that when you die, thats it, game over, you no longer exist.

 

Christians, Muslims, Jews, believe in God generally because it supplies some hope that there is something after you die, something which is eternally great in comparison to our current existance, and I guess if this information whether it is false or not is used to make someone feel happier about their mortality ,then even if it dillusional it is no bad thing.

 

However religion does not really fit into the second point of view. Faith is completely seperate to religion. Religion demands that you not only obey "God" but also the laws of the church. This is where things gets messed up because unlike the true impervious image of an all knowing all loving God, humans are not all loving or all knowing and normally are inherently selfish and drawn to causes that will help them. Therefore I think religion is a parasite of faith. It uses peoples good faith in something which is genuinely harmless by itself and twists it to the bidding of "ecclesiastical humans" with hidden agendas. That is not to say that all religion is bad, but what they are based on are something they can never be, they are based on serving God, when they have to proof that that is how God intends people to live or act.

 

e.g the ten commandments are no wrong thing, and if you follow them you are a going to be a societal "nice" person but God did not tell you to comply with this, religion did! All those who argue well they were handed down by God, prove this, and why can't the church prove this. Where are these magical tablets or the Ark or all these artifacts that change people lives so much.

 

So in conclusion. Religion and God are mutually exclusive, they have no contact with one another, and nor can any priest prove he ever talked to God. Religion is the bidding of other humans who have taken it upon themselves to act as Judges for a God, that never gave them the right to represent him.

 

Ask yourself why would a perfect being want imperfect representation preaching his will. Surely such a being so perfect would not intrust this to people and if he did, God failed, religion is the single biggest cause of war and despair and most certainly such an arguement would mean that God would be far from perfect or not benevolent. My view, God may exist, and he maybe whatever you want him to be, but religion is a parasite, a con man telling you how to live you life pretending to be God!

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Otter

 

Although i have not grammatically expressed it, i would assume that you would realize it was an opinion and therefore not a paradox. Don't skirt the issue.

I'd like to help you express this properly, because I find too often these mantras are repeated and taken by the opposition at face value. Be it "nothing can be proven" or Socrates' "all I know is that I know nothing" - these are expessions of humility and allowing for human fallibility.

 

It's not a mathematical statement, rather a philosophical expression - and as such it's rather pendantic to say that it refutes itself.

 

On the flip side, it's also rather silly to use these as arguments against seeking proof or knowledge.

Edited by Otter

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Cypress Hill

 

To be honest, is this not a little pointless.

 

I would say that while atheists probably have a more rational view than Christians, there is very little solace in this. Especially when you have a view that when you die, thats it, game over, you no longer exist.

 

Christians, Muslims, Jews, believe in God generally because it supplies some hope that there is something after you die, something which is eternally great in comparison to our current existance, and I guess if this information whether it is false or not is used to make someone feel happier about their mortality ,then even if it dillusional it is no bad thing.

 

However religion does not really fit into the second point of view. Faith is completely seperate to religion. Religion demands that you not only obey "God" but also the laws of the church. This is where things gets messed up because unlike the true impervious image of an all knowing all loving God, humans are not all loving or all knowing and normally are inherently selfish and drawn to causes that will help them. Therefore I think religion is a parasite of faith. It uses peoples good faith in something which is genuinely harmless by itself and twists it to the bidding of "ecclesiastical humans" with hidden agendas. That is not to say that all religion is bad, but what they are based on are something they can never be, they are based on serving God, when they have to proof that that is how God intends people to live or act.

 

e.g the ten commandments are no wrong thing, and if you follow them you are a going to be a societal "nice" person but God did not tell you to comply with this, religion did! All those who argue well they were handed down by God, prove this, and why can't the church prove this. Where are these magical tablets or the Ark or all these artifacts that change people lives so much.

 

So in conclusion. Religion and God are mutually exclusive, they have no contact with one another, and nor can any priest prove he ever talked to God. Religion is the bidding of other humans who have taken it upon themselves to act as Judges for a God, that never gave them the right to represent him.

 

Ask yourself why would a perfect being want imperfect representation preaching his will. Surely such a being so perfect would not intrust this to people and if he did, God failed, religion is the single biggest cause of war and despair and most certainly such an arguement would mean that God would be far from perfect or not benevolent. My view, God may exist, and he maybe whatever you want him to be, but religion is a parasite, a con man telling you how to live you life pretending to be God!

I agree. What a person believes or doesn’t believe is a personal matter, not something that an institution can dictate for other people. I don’t really understand why people feel the need to obey a church or doctrine or whatever. If a person really wants to believe in some type of theism and wants to live by a certain moral code, why would they need a church to tell them to do so, or threaten them with damnation? Religious groups just exploit people’s faith in order to control them. I’m pretty sure every major religion claims to have an exclusive relationship with God and insists that everyone who doesn’t belong to that religion is eternally damned. Why would a benevolent supreme being communicate with an organization that uses fear and a superiority complex to sustain its own existence?

 

 

I don’t see this debate going anywhere, though, so why is it that people insist on dragging it on?

 

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Otter

Because, to avoid a situation where one cult controls the rest, we need to have these open discussions. Faith may be a personal thing, but if you think it actually stops at a personal level, then you've got some hard truths to learn. If you don't see the reason to take part in such a thread... I have to ask why you're still posting in here?

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Zhavric

Religion is a scam.

 

I'll state that again because it's of paramount importance.

 

Religion. Is. A scam.

 

It's the oldest and most successful scam in human history.

 

One of the most successful parts of this scam is the idea "faith is a personal matter"... that talking or discussing faith is somehow off limits.

 

If one of you says, "I'm a democrat" we can discuss it, look at the merits of it, call out stupid things democrats have done in the past, etc. If one of you says, "I'm a Christian" there's this social block against discussing Christianity. That's your PERSONAL decision and no one can challenge your PERSONAL decision.

 

Bullsh*t.

 

Faith isn't personal nor is it a merit.

 

Faith is part of the scam. It's how the scammers get people to convince themselves not to look at religion as a scam. Even as you're reading this you're probably terribly insulted by the idea you've been taken in by a scam... which is EXACTLY what any scammer would want you to think.

 

I care about the truth. Religion is the opposite of truth. It wants people to be happy with being ignorant, compels decent people to do indecent things, can be used to motivate large groups of people to war upon one another, and encourages us to be happy with ignorance.

 

There isn't a single benefit of religion that cannot be attained through secular paths.

 

Wake the f*ck up.

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r&r

........ in your opinion.

 

My opinion, God is real. I choose to believe that there is such a thing and that he does answer people's prayers.

 

 

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Kippers

As you've mentioned praying, this question is just out of plain curiosity, but what do you guys exactly hear when you pray? You hear of people saying they spoke to God in their prays or whatever. When i close my eyes and put my hands flat against eachother just below my face, all i hear are my own thoughts, not 'God' or some mystical being having a convo with me.

 

How can people be so certain that it's God and not just their own brain making it all up becuase it's exactly what you want to hear?

 

Maybe it's a post for another debate but religion is religon is religon and praying is part of it, So it's on topic.

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r&r

No, I don't hear God.

 

But when the things I pray for actually happen, that is the reason I believe in God.

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Craig Kostelecky

Try praying for the drummer from Def Leppard to regrow his left arm. Surely if God can answer prayers and heal the sick, He should be able to fix that if enough good people pray for it. But no, every "answered prayer" came true because it could have without a supreme being's intervention.

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TheJkWhoSaysNi

Yes, It depends what you pray for.

 

If you're praying that you'll pass your driving test and you do then your prayer has been answered.. even though it was due to lots of practice.

 

This is the same sort of nonsense that superstition is based on and reminds me of a good simpsons quote: "Then this rock keeps tigers away. I don't see any tigers around here do you?".

 

I do think that people do have some power. If you go into something and hope for a good outcome (winning at sport or something) then your positive attitude will help you win. If you go about things expecting then that will happen because you expect it to.

 

Prayer works on this level. If you believe god is on your side it inspires you and possibly will help. It doesn't mean that god has intervened in any way.

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Cypress Hill

 

One of the most successful parts of this scam is the idea "faith is a personal matter"... that talking or discussing faith is somehow off limits.

I'm not sure if this is in response to my above post, but I'll reply anyway. I see belief as a personal mattter not in the sense that it’s a private issue that shouldn't be discussed. What I mean by "personal matter" (maybe not the best term for it) is that a person's beliefs should be customized to what makes sense to them, not what an institution tells them to believe. Since I've grown up around religious people (specifically Catholics), I know that a person's religion is based mostly on their upbringing, not on their own perception of reality. Not many Catholics I know think about whether or not their "faith" makes sense. They just accepted it as true after being taught so by parents, teachers, priests, and other appendages of the Catholic Church.

 

Institutionalizing “faith” has the same effect as institutionalizing political beliefs. It allows a small group of people to control the mindset of the masses. That’s why the Republicans and Democrats monopolize American politics. Organized religion trains people to not think for themselves and let the church do the thinking for them. That’s what I think is the biggest threat posed by religion. I don’t care if a person chooses to believe in a god or angels or celestial teapots. It’s the institutions that try to control other people’s thoughts and beliefs that are the problem.

 

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