INVISIBLE WALL

[xmen]

hi to all,

i made a model in 3ds max 8, its working gud but it have 2 invisibles walls

i opened its col in col editor 2 but there wasnt any invisiball wall like in game

i also tried to import col through 3ds but have the same problem

i optimize it too, export many times but no benefit

 

i know its a very common problem thats why i tried to search it but forums search engine isnt working and yahoo and google isnt showing any topic that have that problem

 

someone have the solution...???

[Gforce]

as you say, this is becoming a very common problem with colfiles in SA.

 

even though CEII can optimise col's and fix the problem sometimes, it doesn't always sort the problem.

 

while converting the Myriad islands project from VC to SA i have come across this issue around 30 times, i found that the colwalls of doom (COD's) are usually caused by small or small overlapping polies, i'm still unsure whether this is from the way CEII handles colfiles or whether SA is at fault.

 

the only way i found to finally fix a lot of these problems was to refine the colfile model manually by remodeling it in a 3D package like 3DS Max or zmodeler and eliminating the small polies or overlaps, then exporting the col model as a 3ds file and adding that to the main colfile in CEII.

 

good luck fixing things up

[xmen]

i opened it in 3ds max 8 but its appearing same like in CEII

you suggestion is the last way to do that but if i delete any poly the model become little incomplete, this problem is very wierd

[dertyjerzian]

What Gforce is implying you do is to discard the col that you have, or at least the problem area of it and re-sculpt a replacement. Cut it out and remodel it. Could help, and won't be too hard. I will probably have to do it for a gas station I am working on that I extruded pillars for and used a risky technique to create some of the sidewalk. Whichever did me in, I have to out do. You can handle it

[xmen]

hey strange thing happend with col , that is , when i re-exported the col file and added to img i forgot to increase its brightness and when i reached near the model i found that the invisible wall length increased about 3 times of previous ,then i started remembering of changes i did in reexporting the col

 

and i found that i didnt increased its brightness and when i increased its brightness then two changes i saw

1. col file size decreased and

2.invisible wall`s lenght is also decreased .

i dont know what the hell is happeinng..!!

 

any idea..???

 

[DexX]

you know Kam also has a maxscript for exporting col files (even SA col2/col3), and its what i've been using, with no problems at all. You guys should try it, and see if the errors persist.

[xmen]

hey Dexx, i never used any other thing\tool except kams max script to export col

[steve-m]

 

while converting the Myriad islands project from VC to SA i have come across this issue around 30 times, i found that the colwalls of doom (COD's) are usually caused by small or small overlapping polies, i'm still unsure whether this is from the way CEII handles colfiles or whether SA is at fault.

In an attempt to minimize those issues CE2 welds nearby vertices (distance of 0.01 or less) when you use the optimize function. This should get rid of very thin triangles, and remove small gaps. But apparently either this isn't the real cause of the problem, or the welding distance has to be higher. But then that might break small/detailed geometry. It seems the best solution is to fix your mesh in 3DSMax (or whatever modeler is used) as good as possible before exporting.

 

 

hey strange thing happend with col , that is , when i re-exported the col file and added to img i forgot to increase its brightness and when i reached near the model i found that the invisible wall length increased about 3 times of previous ,then i started remembering of changes i did in reexporting the col

 

and i found that i didnt increased its brightness and when i increased its brightness then two changes i saw

1. col file size decreased and

2.invisible wall`s lenght is also decreased .

i dont know what the hell is happeinng..!!

 

any idea..???

That's interesting. Are you able to reproduce that problem, or did it appear rather randomly? Could you upload or send me the two files (and maybe the source file) so I can compare them?

[xmen]

no its appears at only 2 fixed place,

yeah sure i sent you

[dertyjerzian]

 

In an attempt to minimize those issues CE2 welds nearby vertices (distance of 0.01 or less) when you use the optimize function. This should get rid of very thin triangles, and remove small gaps.

 

Cool. I was wondering about that feature and what it actually does.

 

 

But apparently either this isn't the real cause of the problem, or the welding distance has to be higher.

 

NO! At least make it definable I'd prefer it to be minimum (0.001)

 

 

But then that might break small/detailed geometry. It seems the best solution is to fix your mesh in 3DSMax (or whatever modeler is used) as good as possible before exporting.

 

@ xmen: That really is your best bet, bud. Either that or weld your entire model at the smallest possible threshold prior to it beginning to deform before exporting it

 

Did you create any INSETS on your model using a combination of an EXTRUDE being scaled and pushed back down level with it's origin? Or with a BEVEL and then being pushed down back even to it's original `Z`?

 

Does anything on your model where the invisible wall reaches resemble a pillar or have a very horizontal slope? Anything like a hood(like gas station tops), or canopy/overhang (like the roof surrounding the front of a convenience store)?

 

Please provide me some screens to look at because we're going to figure out this issue. I need a wire view man, and a view (in game or in max) with something pointing out the col wall. Thanks in advance.

[xmen]

hey yeah i used INSET in my model and i dont think that is the cause of it however the invisible walls are against where i used inset

 

Edited:

 

the 2 Invisible walls after increasing brightness

 

 

and the blue box where i used Inset function and in red the invisible walls after decreasing brightness(it increased in lenght)

i mark for second wall same as first

Edited June 10, 2007 by xmen

[steve-m]

no its appears at only 2 fixed place,

yeah sure i sent you

OK, I can confirm that editing the brightness does NOT change anything else or mess up the file. When I open the col you sent me, select all faces, change their brightness from 255 to 0 and save it, the binary file turns out as expected. However, there are some very small differences in some of the vertices due to rounding errors, but they are small enough to ignore. Everything else is fine, and the file size stays the same.

 

And something else. The col model you made is very detailed. You don't need that! You could get rid of all those bars on the windows, and all the redundant faces along that big tunnel thingy. The col model should only contain those faces you actually "feel" in the game, none of those you used mainly for details or texturing effects. The simpler your model, the faster collision detection will be in game, and the smaller the chance you'll get walls of doom.

[xmen]

oh but its happening with me, i found something after some tries that is once you increased the brightness then if you decrease or increase it, it will not effect on the col except may be in brightness in game

i sent you two col files one with 255 brightness and one with 0 brightness

 

0 brightness have 145 kb

255 brightness have 75.5 kb

 

try them i hope you will find something

Edited June 12, 2007 by xmen

[Aschratt]

oh but its happening with me, i found something after some tries that is once you increased the brightness then if you decrease or increase it, it will not effect on the col except may be in brightness in game

i sent you two col files one with 255 brightness and one with 0 brightness

 

0 brightness have 145 kb

255 brightness have 75.5 kb

 

try them i hope you will find something

COLL Bugs can also have their reason in IPL...

 

I had a problem which was very simelar to yours and when I remapped the objects at the end of the IPL the col worked.

But then I found out that other objects of this IPL got cols which are more than 100 % as tall as they should have. I dont know how to solve this problem, but It also seems to exist in very huge IPLs!

[steve-m]

 

0 brightness have 145 kb

255 brightness have 75.5 kb

The one with 0 brightness has 15372 vertices, the other one only 2335. My guess is that the exporter you used left it heavily unoptimized, what CE2 does for you automatically when you edit and save it. Just open the big one in CE2, press optimize, and compare the vertex count.

 

It might be that welding the vertices screws something up. In that case, open CollEditor2.ini with a text editor and change the line

 

OptimizeOnSave=1

 

to

 

OptimizeOnSave=0

 

to stop it from being automatically optimized. This way you can modify the brightness without changing the actual mesh. Try if that works better regarding invisible walls. Also try to optimize your mesh in the modeler before exporting to col.

 

Edit: If the unoptimized model works better, please also try loading it again, press "Generate Face Groups" (with auto-optimization still off), save it and try ingame.

[xmen]

@Aschratt : bud i added some more objects after that model so i dont think that ipl is the cause of this problem

 

@steve-m : yeah i m using kams max script, i dunno why it isnt optimizing col, i opened CollEditor2.ini and did as you said then i opened col and move brightness to full and save it

the col filesize increased to 155 kb and problem same as before

 

 

Edit: If the unoptimized model works better, please also try loading it again, press "Generate Face Groups" (with auto-optimization still off), save it and try ingame.

 

bud its working automatically, when i saved col the groups counts reached to 226. then i click on "Clear Face Groups" and groups count reached to 0 but when i saved it, Groups were automatically reached to 226.

i also searched in CollEditor2.ini about it but didnt found anything....

 

i think this is happening with kams max script, we dont have any other alternative way to export col except of 3ds, buddy cant you make a script for exporting col ...??

Edited June 13, 2007 by xmen

[Gforce]

you keep trying lots of different ways to work around this problem, sooner or later you may re-read my last post in this topic and realise what i was saying.

 

in the picture below you will see i have highlighted some area's in green where i suspect the polies are that are causing your problem, open the col mesh in a modeler and remove the long narrow polies and you will most likely find your invisible walls will disappear, i also guess that if you jetpack up within that room you will find another invisible wall running across the top of the room.

 

 

as i said in my last post, i have seen and fixed this kind of problem enough times to have convinced myself that i actually DO know what i am talking about.

 

PS: there IS another method of exporting colfiles from Max, its called steve's colscript (.cst) exporter, which can be found Here.

[xmen]

thanks i will try

 

Edited : hey its just for GTA 3 and VC

Edited June 13, 2007 by xmen

[xmen]

Gforce: man i deleted as you said in max and CE2 but no benefit

[dertyjerzian]

Ok, picture this as your pillars up there, or imagine it as my gas-pump station "over-hood":

 

 

Now picture this happening to the COL when rendered in-game:

 

 

I'm pretty sure this is what is happening. The fix? Do as the pros did when they made the game: Create Custom Cols for everything that needed a custom col.

 

I plan to hand-model every col besides the ground in Codenamed: The Grove. What will of course be after a lot of other sh*t is done. For now, I will use straight-from-mesh cols, and live with the occasional error.

 

A very fast fix for you is to remodel and just make add pillars/overhang as a seperate dff. Also, where Gforce pointed out for that hole in the wall, he's absolutely correct, try it and report back.

 

Also, hey, are you re-exporting from an imported dff or is this NEVER imported, just modeled then exported? Kinda important for my own study on this cmmon problem...

 

edit: can I please have view of wireframe for the problem areas as well? Have you removed extra edges and the leftover vertices after removing the edges?

Edited June 15, 2007 by dertyjerzian™

[xmen]

buddy to remake that model isnt so easy

 

 

Also, where Gforce pointed out for that hole in the wall, he's absolutely correct, try it and report back.

i think you didnt read my last post

 

 

can I please have view of wireframe for the problem areas as well?

 

yeah sure

 

 

 

Have you removed extra edges and the leftover vertices after removing the edges?

yeah all edges, no