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Mister Zero

Time Travel

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Mister Zero

Me and a few friends had an arguement (which turned into a debate as the beer flowed) down at the pub about Time Travel and how it would work should it exist. Some thought it wasn't true at all, as that would mean un-doing every last fibre of activity you were involved in, whereas others thought if you are travelling to a point before your activity, you would not have been involved in the first place.

Needless to say, it got a bit heavy and we left severely tanked up and dizzy off our own logic. It did make me think however, and a comment a friend of mine made really stuck in my mind:

 

 

"Well, Deja Vu's the result of time travel. You get that feeling because someone's changed the first time you experienced it, and now you're getting the feeling of it happening again just like it happened the first time."

 

Obviously that quotes a little bit waffley, but if you can understand it, it's a good point. What are your thoughts on the issue and do you believe it is (or will be) possible?

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K^2

I can tell you just about anything you want to know about time travel, short of schematics for a time machine. There are, obviously, still some unresolved issues, and it is not yet something that is done experimentally. As such, all of this is theoretical, but the evidence for models upon which the theoretical conclusions are made are extremely strong. Primarily, I rely on Quantum Mechanics, which is tested to 1E-10, (ten digits of precision), and on Statistical Mechanics, which Einstein himself believed to be the theory that is least likely to be shown false.

 

First thing you need to understand is that neither classical nor quantum mechanics provide for a direction of time flow. All fundamental equations show that forward and reverse movement in time is equivalent. This brings up the question of why we can tell the difference between future and past.

 

The answer to this comes from Statistical Mechanics. Imagine that you want to flip a switch from "off" to "on". This is, in a way, can be viewed as storing 1 bit of information. What prevents the switch from "bouncing" back from the "on" position to "off"? Well, the switch needs a certain amount of energy for that. But you gave the switch that energy when you switched it to "on". Where did it go? It went into heat. What is heat? Disorganized movement of particles in the body of the switch. The interesting part is that if there were only so many particles that the switch was built of, and there was no external system to absorb the heat, eventually, the switch would bounce back into the "off" position from recoil caused by the heated particles, and keep on bouncing every once in a while. What really prevents it from happening is the fact that the energy has been absorbed by an extremely large number of particles in the switch body and then in the environment.

 

If you keep looking deeper into it, you will discover that an essential requirement for storage of information is increase in entropy. Entropy can be thought of as a measure of disorder, though, thermodynamically, it is defined more precise in relation between heat and temperature. Second law of thermodynamics, stating that entropy increases, therefore, can be understood slightly differently. Moments in time when entropy was lower we call past, because it's the only ones of which we can have a memory.

 

This is the part where most people in Stat Mech will stop, thinking that all problems are solved. Unfortunately, there is a very big trap in the whole argument. You see, the total amount of entropy is conserved. It can't change. There are both classical mechanics and quantum mechanics theorems to back it up. If our world was classical, I really wouldn't know what to do at this point. Fortunately, it isn't, and there is just one more model that can resolve this issue.

 

The model is the Many World Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics. I will not bore you with mathematics, but it is the only model I know that allows entropy to be conserved as a global quantity, while being observed to increase. The principle is such. When an observer tries to measure something that is in superposition (think of it as being in more than one state at once, e.g. Schroedinger's Cat being dead and alive at the same time), then the observer ends up entangled with the observed state. This means that the observer is now in superposition, and each state of the observer observes a different result. Essentially, you can think of it now as two observers looking at two, now slightly different, parallel worlds.

 

Now, for any moment in time, you can have multiple futures and multiple pasts. So now the correction of the stated above definition of the past and future is thus. Any of the possible observable worlds, in either direction in time, where entropy is lower is one of the possible pasts. These where entropy is higher are possible futures. Most of the differences between possible futures and pasts will be microscopic, and only through things like butterfly effect can they become macroscopic.

 

At this point, we must abandon a concept of a timeline. Instead, we end up with a complex time network of alternate timelines. All of the events in all timelines exist at once in parallel.

 

This gives you a lot of freedom to travel through time, but it gives you none as far as changing it. You can easily go back into the past and kill Hitler. This will send you along a different timeline, and you can see the world where WWII didn't happen, or maybe happened very differently. This, however, has no effect on the timeline that you came from, and all the horrible events still occur there. This also tells you that you probably can't go back in time and find an inventor of the wheel, because there could be many different ways that this played out in alternate timelines, all of which lead to the current moment in time.

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fox09

Not that I really understood, but I think this sort've ties in to what K^2 just said. Click the thingy on the right.

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K^2

It's not exactly the same thing, but it can help you with the mental picture, if you keep a few things in mind. First of all, the whole tenth dimension thing is very artificial. When we are talking about a Mobeus strip, we can actually have a 2D space with the same behavior without requiring a 3rd dimension. It can be represented in 3D, but it's really just 2D. So the addition of 6th and 9th dimensions in the video is purely artificial. And the tenth dimension is not even illustrated. They tell you that all you get in 10th dimension is a point, which really says that the object has no 10th dimension. So all together, we are down to just 7 dimensions there. And that can be further decreased or increased depending on what you want to account for.

 

But that's not even the big problem. The big problem is that all the branching of the timeline simply cannot fit in 2 dimensions, so you can't just stop at the 5th. What you need to describe a system is a vector in a Fock space, and for a universe, that will have more dimensions than you can shake a scientific notation at. The number of dimensions needed for a Fock space that holds up to N particles is 2^(N+1)-1.

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asimov

 

They tell you that all you get in 10th dimension is a point, which really says that the object has no 10th dimension.

 

The first dimension is also a point, so why can't there be a 10th one?

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K^2

Point is a zero-dimensional object.

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Randomname01

I don't feel like getting into time space dimensional crossovers or matter singularity, but it is possible. Ok, go light speed in a craft and you don't age at all. COme back to earth in a certian amount of time, then it would change there, but you wouldn't change.

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K^2

Time compression is boring, though. Yeah, there are ways to alter the rate of time flow. You don't even need to travel at near-speed of light to do this. There are a bunch of other ways. Gravitational fields can affect the time flow in the same way. There are ways to use electro-magnetic fields to alter speeds of chemical reactions. And if you want a really trivial solution, just freeze the person really fast. There is currently no tech to freeze fast enough, but I'm willing to bet that we'll have that before we learn to travel at 0.99c.

 

This is why traveling into the future is boring. It could be exciting practically, but the theory is not exciting at all. As a result, when people want to talk about time travel, they usually talk about time reversal. Traveling into the past. The theory gets much hairier there, since everything is very hypothetical, and nobody has any good ideas of how to do it in practice. There are some people who believe that you can time reverse with tricky geometries in Gen Rel, but I can almost guarantee you that none of them would work, and not just because they require incredible mass configurations. Time in Gen Rel is only loosely related to what we normally understand as time flow, and Gen Rel time reversal will most likely merely change particles into anti-particles without affecting the statistical flow of time. This could have tons of interesting applications, but not in time travel.

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bigbilly123

Time is something man created to keep track of things.. it is based on how many times we revolve around the sun.. time does not exsist.. therefore we cannot travel thorugh it.. end of!

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Cypress Hill

 

Time is something man created to keep track of things.. it is based on how many times we revolve around the sun.. time does not exsist.. therefore we cannot travel thorugh it.. end of!

This actually makes some sense to me. I've always figured time was just a system of measurement and a way to dermermine the sequence of certain events. Things don't get old and decay because of time, they do so because of erosion.

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K^2
Time is something man created to keep track of things.. it is based on how many times we revolve around the sun.. time does not exsist.. therefore we cannot travel thorugh it.. end of!

Wrong. I can record something at 5 o'clock, and read it later at 7 o'clock. Normally, I cannot do the reverse. It has to do with dynamics of reading and writing. However, there is nothing in theory to prevent me from designing a method allowing me to read notes that I wrote later. Then, I will be able to read at 5 o'clock the note that I will only write at 7.

 

Now imagine that we took a person and disassemble that person while recorded positions of every particle in that person's body, as well as precise state of each particle. We then store this information in such a way that we can read this information two years ago. Two years ago, we use the information we retrieve to recreate the person exactly. This person has just traveled two years into the past.

 

We don't have a clue how to do most of that stuff in practice, but we do know that it is possible. Ergo, time travel is possible.

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Cypress Hill

 

Now imagine that we took a person and disassemble that person while recorded positions of every particle in that person's body, as well as precise state of each particle. We then store this information in such a way that we can read this information two years ago. Two years ago, we use the information we retrieve to recreate the person exactly. This person has just traveled two years into the past.

 

We don't have a clue how to do most of that stuff in practice, but we do know that it is possible. Ergo, time travel is possible.

I don't think that's quite what people think when they think of time travel. You are saying that reassembing matter so it is identical to a previous state is time travel. Right? Since all matter that existed in 1800 exists today in different forms, wouldn't it be be theoretically possible to rearrange all matter into the state it was in before all of the events of the last 217 years? Would this then qualify as time travel? If a ball is sitting on a table at a certain point, then it falls off the table, and someone puts the ball back on the table, thus restoring it to its previous state, would the ball be travelling in time? Or when I put food in a freezer to preserve it and keep in the same (or similar) state as when it was put in the freezer, you would you consider this to be slowing down time for the food in the freezer?

 

If so, then all time is is the occurrence of changes in an environment. This would mean that time doesn't exist independent of matter. If there was no physical matter or energy, there would be no time. What you're saying is time travel doesn't really seem like what I would think of as time travel, since there isn't really any "travelling" going on. By your definition, renewing a previous state of an object is 'time travel'. I just see this as reversing the effects of the environment on matter, not time travel.

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K^2
If so, then all time is is the occurrence of changes in an environment. This would mean that time doesn't exist independent of matter. If there was no physical matter or energy, there would be no time.

Depends on what you call time. I can shine some light from the laser. The electric field in the beam rotates so that electric field in x direction, Ex=A*sin(w*t+d), where A is some amplitude, w is the angular frequency, d is some phase offset, and t is some parameter. If you wish, you can call that parameter t - time. If that is what you refer to when you talk about time, then there is no past or future, because there is simply no difference. You cannot travel in time, nor even affect anything that happens within such time. All the possible states for all values of t already exist, and cannot be altered.

 

Such view of time is a bit boring, though. There is another thing that people also call time. When you watch a funny movie, you might tell someone a joke from it afterwards. You will not tell it before, however, because you have no memories of the future events. You use your memories of events to assign them various orders of occurrence in what you call your past. This time exists only as a byproduct of the way that your brain works. This, I think, is what bigbilly123 was trying to get at. But it is also exactly the kind of time in which you can travel. This time is defined by the states of your mind, and as long as you can transfer information about these states and recreate them, you can travel through time.

 

If you really want to, you could even replace the particle disassembly/assembly with quantum teleportation. In theory, you could go as far as constructing a doorway between present and past using these principles. On one hand, you'd be just playing with matter and rearranging it in various ways. But on another, that's all that happens in your brain when you experience flow of time, so what's the difference?

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Jackoozy

Time travel is absolutely connected with space travel... When I said space I've ment the territory, land. Look here: We can travel West and have two breakfests at the same time (according to clock), but doing it in Prague and then San Diego. It's well known fact, although I was thinking about appearing in some place yesterday or tommorow which is certainly possible, but only for some time of day...

Speaking about the first post: In my opinion the subject of De'ja Vu is not connected with time travel theme, because I don't believe in Force that could through us back in time from our future stance and make us live the life, we've already have lived one or two or some times again

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Cypress Hill

 

Such view of time is a bit boring, though. There is another thing that people also call time. When you watch a funny movie, you might tell someone a joke from it afterwards. You will not tell it before, however, because you have no memories of the future events. You use your memories of events to assign them various orders of occurrence in what you call your past. This time exists only as a byproduct of the way that your brain works. This, I think, is what bigbilly123 was trying to get at. But it is also exactly the kind of time in which you can travel. This time is defined by the states of your mind, and as long as you can transfer information about these states and recreate them, you can travel through time.

\

 

That's basically the same as reassembling something into a previous state, only with information instead of matter. I don't really think time exists as an entity itself, and memory is just what we use to record sequence. The only way actual 'time travel' would be possible is to reassemble all of the matter in the universe into the same state it was in at some other time. this is implausible both because it would be imposiible to determine the exact state of every atom at any specific time, and because it would be impossible to carry out the reassembling of all this matter. So time travel in which someone could go to the world at a previous state is, IMO, implausible.

 

If you really want to, you could even replace the particle disassembly/assembly with quantum teleportation. In theory, you could go as far as constructing a doorway between present and past using these principles. On one hand, you'd be just playing with matter and rearranging it in various ways. But on another, that's all that happens in your brain when you experience flow of time, so what's the difference?

I'm not sure what you mean by creating a doorway between past and present. How would one go about determining a past state of every atom, even in a single object, let alone assembling this patter into the exact position of the previous state?

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K^2

 

That's basically the same as reassembling something into a previous state, only with information instead of matter. I don't really think time exists as an entity itself, and memory is just what we use to record sequence. The only way actual 'time travel' would be possible is to reassemble all of the matter in the universe into the same state it was in at some other time. this is implausible both because it would be imposiible to determine the exact state of every atom at any specific time, and because it would be impossible to carry out the reassembling of all this matter. So time travel in which someone could go to the world at a previous state is, IMO, implausible.

What's the difference between reassembling the universe in the past state around you in present state or assembling you in the present state in the universe's past? You will experience exactly the same thing. Only, as you said, reassembling the entire universe is implausible, but transferring information about you in present state into the past and assembling you there is plausible.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by creating a doorway between past and present. How would one go about determining a past state of every atom, even in a single object, let alone assembling this patter into the exact position of the previous state?

You don't need to know the state to transfer it. If you did, quantum teleportation would not work. In QM, it is impossible to measure an exact state of anything in a single measurement, the measurement destroys the state, and cloning theorem prevents you from making exact disentangled copies. (It is possible to "amplify" the state by making entangled copies, but you still can only perform a single measurement experiment on them due to the nature of entanglement. See EPR paradox for more info.) Quantum Teleportation relies on the fact that you can transfer a state between two systems without ever measuring it. It is done by using maximum entangled states, and the actual mathematics of it is a bit hairy. (If you think you can follow the vector math in Dirac notation, I can show you how it works for a 2-state quantum system.) Experimentally, this has only been performed on optical excitation states of single atoms. But in theory, all matter is just excitation states of vacuum, so it is possible to teleport matter without knowing its exact composition.

 

A time door would simply be a portal connecting past and the present, or present and future, if you are standing on the other "end" of it. In practice, the way it would work is that all matter crossing the threshold would interact with one end of the maximum entangled pair of many-state system, the interaction would produce a "measurement" resulting in classical information that needs to reach the other many-state system of the maximum entangled pair to produce the exact copy of the matter that entered. As long as that classical information can be transmitted in time (forward transmission by storing, backward transmission by local time flow reversal and storing) you can transmit matter directly from one threshold to another, which can be located in different locations in both time in space.

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bigbilly123

Well I think that what has already happened, has already happened.. its History..

 

And if it was possible.. why has nobody come back to us yet?

 

I dont belive in time.. its just like numbers.. there invented just to keep things in order and make everything easier.

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TerminalGTA

Im pretty sure as explained above, time travel is possible and scientifical proven but as K2 said the enormous amounts of energy required would be inplausable for man to harness this.

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K^2

 

Well I think that what has already happened, has already happened.. its History..

As long as you also believe that the future has already "happened" as well. If the past is set, then so is the future. There really are no two ways about it.

 

And if it was possible.. why has nobody come back to us yet?

Because we haven't invented a time machine yet. Outside of science fiction, nobody is suggesting a time machine that allows you to travel to an arbitrary date. All of the theory suggests that you will need a "receiver" of some sort at the destination point. This means that the time machine needs to already exist at the earliest point to which you can return. That is the most plausible explanation.

 

Im pretty sure as explained above, time travel is possible and scientifical proven but as K2 said the enormous amounts of energy required would be inplausable for man to harness this.

I don't think I implied any specific amounts of energy that would be needed. I honestly have no idea at this point. The thermodynamics of time travel is certain to be very hairy. At any rate, I'm sure we'll be able to squeeze messages in through time, and that's really what you need a lot more than actual ability to time travel.

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Svip

Uh, wouldn't the time machine have a very serious problem? Given how the Sun is spinning around the centre of the galaxy, and our galaxy at the same time is moving. Plus our Earth is making rotations around the Sun.

 

Ergo, we will never at any time in history be at the exact same location (if the Universe had a fix point that is).

 

In my understanding though, to travel in a timeline, it requires that universe stores all history somewhere. Which I believe is not the case, where we are now, are simply because of the previous moment, and the previous moment was because of its previous moment, and so on.

 

If we removed the previous moment, there would suddenly be nothing. Of course, that's just my understanding, time hasn't exactly been verified as a substance of any kind. And most of the theories that involves travelling in time are largely untested.

 

My personal stand is that it is not possible, but if it is possible. Don't. Seriously, don't travel in time. If what K^2 says is correct, you will no possibility of coming back to your previous timeline. Also, if you go back and kill your grandfather, you won't suddenly die. You're suddenly just a creature who just came into being.

 

So much for making this illustration I wasn't going to use anyway:

 

user posted image

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All-Blacks
Uh, wouldn't the time machine have a very serious problem? Given how the Sun is spinning around the centre of the galaxy, and our galaxy at the same time is moving. Plus our Earth is making rotations around the Sun.

 

Ergo, we will never at any time in history be at the exact same location (if the Universe had a fix point that is).

 

 

Good point, never thought of that before. So there goes time travel down the drain icon14.gif .

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K^2
Uh, wouldn't the time machine have a very serious problem? Given how the Sun is spinning around the centre of the galaxy, and our galaxy at the same time is moving. Plus our Earth is making rotations around the Sun.

 

Ergo, we will never at any time in history be at the exact same location (if the Universe had a fix point that is).

Just so that you don't oversimplify things, take this into consideration. You are flying on an air jet. While walking through the cabin, you decide to jump vertically up. Assuming that the plane is in uniform motion, where do you land. Now, for added complexity, imagine that the plane is in a turn when you do that. Where do you land then? (There is a trick question in there.)

 

But it is all a moot point, I think. It doesn't really matter what moves where. I don't think we will ever be physically pumping matter through time. There just isn't any point in that. In my opinion, any half-realistic time travel approach will consist of sending information back through time, and assembling any matter you want transfered on the spot. This can be via universal constructor or quantum teleportation. Either way, the location of the time machine in the past matters to you as little as the physical location of a fax machine when you are sending a fax.

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Otter

... but the location of the other fax machine is quite important, is it not?

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K^2

Only to a switch station which will route the information. Not to the document being faxed or to you as the end user.

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Otter

I'm afraid the allegory fails me. Obviously I care where I'm sending a fax to. That's why I'm sending it.

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Guybrush Threepwood

 

I'm afraid the allegory fails me.  Obviously I care where I'm sending a fax to.  That's why I'm sending it.

I wholeheartedly agree with you there.

For example, to send data on a network, you make sure the computers see eachother and handshake on the data being sent in which timeframe.

There are methods for sending data without handshaking and acknowledging the data. What does this cause? Unreliable data!

It's very important that BOTH sides acknowledge that something is being sent, where it is being sent, and even more so that it is received in full in the format you sent it out in.

 

Besides, even if you sent data back in time, what effect would it have? Would people even take it seriously?

Imagine a goatherder in 15BC finding the schematics to an atomic bomb. I'm 99% confident he will not be able to build one.

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K^2

You missed the point. We already assume that the data delivery can be ensured. When you record something on a hard drive, do you worry that your data might disappear in the future because the hard drive moved? No. If you have a media with reversed time flow, same rules apply. Your data will go where the device goes, which is back to where that device was at the time in past to which you are sending something or someone. The connection is already established, and handshakes, and whatnot, can be performed (though, you'd need some sort of a quantum handshake for reasons that I really don't care to get into). Once you take that into account, you already know that what you are sending into the past will go exactly where you need it to go.

 

 

Besides, even if you sent data back in time, what effect would it have? Would people even take it seriously?

Imagine a goatherder in 15BC finding the schematics to an atomic bomb. I'm 99% confident he will not be able to build one.

I'll tell you even more. When Soviets first acquired the partial blueprints for the US nuclear reactor, the nuclear physicists who were trying to reproduce it weren't sure if they were building a reactor or a bomb until they built it.

 

But what you are probably more interested in is sending data back a few years at most. Things like natural disaster reports, market statistics, etc. And for a range of a few weeks you might be interested in things like aircraft crashes, riots, or something of the similar caliber.

 

Sending anything further back is impractical for many more reasons than simply an inability of the recipients to decipher the information. You run into various problems with past/future uncertainty. Even if you stick to strict Copenhagen Interpretation, taking into account the Butterfly Effect and its quantum state amplification equivalent, the future is uncertain on a quantum level, and trying to receive transmissions from the future will result in some interesting side effects.

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