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Jordan

Official News 02/27/07

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connect4

Great news, I can't wait till GTA 4 comes out wherever the setting. rah.gif

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Engioc
This is the first official news (we think) for GTA IV in months, RATE THIS TOPIC AS GOOD so it is recognized among all of the speculative threads!

 

 

NaturalMotion, the award-winning developer of 3D animation technology based on Dynamic Motion Synthesis (DMS), today announced a partnership with Rockstar Games, the world-renowned publishing label, to integrate NaturalMotion’s revolutionary euphoria engine into upcoming next-generation Rockstar Games titles. Rockstar’s integration of euphoria is well advanced, with today’s announcement following several months of close collaboration between the two companies.

 

Based on NaturalMotion’s DMS technology, euphoria uses the processing power of PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 to simulate the human body and motor nervous system, thus creating fully interactive game characters that act differently every time. With euphoria, games move away from canned animation, towards a much richer, life-like experience that is unique to the player.

 

“euphoria is about giving people an interactive experience they have never seen before. We now have the processing power to simulate humans, and the possibilities for games are endless,” said Torsten Reil, CEO of NaturalMotion. “In Rockstar, we have found a partner that shares this vision, and is renowned for creating some of the most ground-breaking and immersive games in the industry. We are thrilled and honored to work with a partner of such high caliber, and look forward to helping create amazing titles.”

 

NaturalMotion Ltd. is the first company to create 3D character animation software based on Dynamic Motion Synthesis (DMS), a technology that utilizes Adaptive Behaviors and artificial intelligence to simulate the human nervous system. Based on Oxford University research on the control of body movements, NaturalMotion’s euphoria synthesizes 3D character animation in real time on Playstation® 3, Xbox 360TM and PC, thus creating unique game moments and previously unachievable interactivity.

 

http://www.naturalmotion.com/files/nm_rockstar_2007.pdf

 

Edit: I just got personal confirmation that Rockstar approved this for NaturalMotion to give out, so it is not as if NaturalMotion decided to throw it online without approval, of course...

 

This is obviously going to be used for Grand Theft Auto IV. I have no doubt in my mind.

GTAIV sounding like it could be one of the best games ever with this euphoria engine. Seems fairly obvious it will be used for GTAIV, this type of engine would be best shown off in a game world like GTA.

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Snake Without a Tongue

Bullet dancing and hand shooting aside, this would greatly improve fighting or general combat animation. Instead of awkward 'turn to the side,face forward shoot', more fluid movements could be seen during gameplay. Making all the difference. Fighting and shooting currently is little more than a process of manic button pushing.

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gta-evo4
euphoria is about giving people an interactive experience they have never seen before. We now have the processing power to simulate humans, and the possibilities for games are endless

yeah!!! icon14.gif

 

 

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illspirit
I seriously doubt this is for GTA4...

Umm... why? GTA is the series R* makes money on, and the technology has been around for long enough (I remember seeing some DMS animations at least a year ago).

Well, the game has been in development for over two years now (probably closer to four), and the press release says they've just been working together for "several months." For them to decide to trash all the existing animations and sub-systems and re-do everything this late doesn't make much sense. Even if they started learning the new tools/APIs/etc.. six months ago, that's still not much time to overhaul an engine, then optimize it and fix bugs. Given the sheer volume of moving things in GTA, there's probably also a year's worth of man hours involved in animating it all. And since the game ships in seven months or so, they really should have most of the assets in place for testing very soon...

You must be referring to this:

 

Rockstar’s integration of euphoria is well advanced, with today’s announcement following several months of close collaboration between the two companies.

So, apparently there's been several months of close collaboration between the companies - nothing is said about when the co-operation first started. For all we know, R* may have had the technology (or some of it) at their disposal for, say, two years. Also, if the animation system is taken care by euphoria, even "several months" (plus how much development time there's left) might well be enough given the resources of R* - especially if they're talking about six months to a year.

 

Besides, even though GTA IV has been in development for two or more years (AFAIK), there's a lot of things R* has been able to work on, other than the in-game animation:

• Choosing the location, theme, era, etc. and doing research on that.

• Creating the storyline.

• Creating the map.

• Creating the buildings, landscape, etc. in 3D.

• Creating mission scripts (although they are most likely tweaked during the testing).

• Creating the cutscenes (using the good ol' motion capture, perhaps).

• Creating the radio programmes.

...and so on

 

Also, experienced programmers/artists are able to learn new stuff surprisingly fast - especially things that are made to make game development easier.

 

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if GTA IV already took advantage of euphoria.

Hmm, yea, you do make a good point there. The press release doesn't say when those "several months" happened. So, yea, for all we know, the collaboration period could have happened ages ago. As such, I'm changing my opinion to a maybe.

 

Still, it hasn't been confirmed for GTA4, and it does no good to get everybody's hopes up. Sorta like that time someone took some quote out of context, assumed San An was to have ragdoll physics, announced it as a "confirmed" feature, and then we had a month's worth of 'zomg R* lied about teh ragdolls! this game sucks!11!' topics. suicidal.gif

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Stefan.

Well, Illy (may I call you that sir? If I can no, I sincerely apologise sir) has a point there.

 

We do not have any physical proof that Rockstar are going to use it in Grand Theft Auto IV. For all we know (although unlikely), Rockstar might use the engine from Grand Theft Auto 1.

 

So I agree with Illspirit: expect anything.

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K^2
This is obviously going to be used for Grand Theft Auto IV. I have no doubt in my mind.

That is a big leap of logic right there. Sure, it would be nice to see something like that, but have you considered the processing power required to pull it off? Since you probably aren't a programmer, I won't point and laugh, but something like that would be extremely difficult to integrate into a GTA environment.

 

First of all, you need a very precise collision detection system for something like that. Second, you are effectively running a ragdoll simulation on every single character that is being rendered. Only you don't stop at simply computing the forces. You must feed forces on the skeleton into the AI, which will crank out additional forces applied by virtual muscles, that you also need to add to the ragdoll. And that's not all. By switching to something like that, you tie character's ability to locomote into the physics simulation. So now your path-finding AI must be able to predict collisions, and communicate with the movement AI. Oi! Granted, most of the hard work has been done already, so R* would need "only" to merge path-finding AI with the movement AI. But think of the resources. Something like this would be very difficult to pull with just a few characters. How many do you expect in GTAIV?

 

From everything I have seen, one of the greatest expectations of GTAIV is big crowds. If R* is not aware of that, it would make them fools, and we have evidence of the contrary. They will not want to disappoint fans, and they will certainly try to make the engine capable of pulling significantly more NPCs at once than San Andreas could. All that with better AI, better graphics, and better physics. Now you want to add to all that an extra AI for each character, further complicate path finding AI, and throw in physics simulation on every bone? I'm not going to go as far as to say that it's impossible, but it would be very difficult even if the motion engine was built from scratch specifically to fit GTA, not to mention trying to fit an existing engine into the GTA environment.

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Bret_HartvsSting

I don't know why everyone is jumping the gun and presuming that this technology will be present in GTA 4. The development of games using euphoria and other systems of this type is not new. It is being used in the new Indiana Jones game among many others which have been in development for a long time.

 

At this point GTA 4 will very much be in the final stages and in my opinion, the likelihood that GTA 4 will go gold without this fancy shmancy motion technology is high.

 

 

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Helsinki

 

This is obviously going to be used for Grand Theft Auto IV.  I have no doubt in my mind.

That is a big leap of logic right there. Sure, it would be nice to see something like that, but have you considered the processing power required to pull it off? Since you probably aren't a programmer, I won't point and laugh, but something like that would be extremely difficult to integrate into a GTA environment.

 

First of all, you need a very precise collision detection system for something like that. Second, you are effectively running a ragdoll simulation on every single character that is being rendered. Only you don't stop at simply computing the forces. You must feed forces on the skeleton into the AI, which will crank out additional forces applied by virtual muscles, that you also need to add to the ragdoll. And that's not all. By switching to something like that, you tie character's ability to locomote into the physics simulation. So now your path-finding AI must be able to predict collisions, and communicate with the movement AI. Oi! Granted, most of the hard work has been done already, so R* would need "only" to merge path-finding AI with the movement AI. But think of the resources. Something like this would be very difficult to pull with just a few characters. How many do you expect in GTAIV?

 

From everything I have seen, one of the greatest expectations of GTAIV is big crowds. If R* is not aware of that, it would make them fools, and we have evidence of the contrary. They will not want to disappoint fans, and they will certainly try to make the engine capable of pulling significantly more NPCs at once than San Andreas could. All that with better AI, better graphics, and better physics. Now you want to add to all that an extra AI for each character, further complicate path finding AI, and throw in physics simulation on every bone? I'm not going to go as far as to say that it's impossible, but it would be very difficult even if the motion engine was built from scratch specifically to fit GTA, not to mention trying to fit an existing engine into the GTA environment.

Taken from www.naturalmotion.com (here):

 

euphoria:core has been designed to be integrated into games engines with minimal disruption. As such, it does not replace any existing animation system, but instead sits parallel to it.

euphoria:core is called by the game whenever a scene requires interactive animation data (e.g. a football tackle). It can be dynamically initiated with the animation currently running, in order to enable a smooth transition. euphoria:core will then synthesize animation data on the fly and hand back to the animation engine when required or requested.

In other words, the neat stuff doesn't have to be a performance bottleneck. The game engine (RAGE?) might just use it when possible - i.e. when you're not detonating a mall full of people. tounge.gif In more complicated scenes, the game might resort to regular ragdoll animation. Sorta like the adaptive level of texture detail we've seen in SA (can't remember if it was in the other 3D GTAs).

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jorim
I don't know why everyone is jumping the gun and presuming that this technology will be present in GTA 4. The development of games using euphoria and other systems of this type is not new. It is being used in the new Indiana Jones game among many others which have been in development for a long time.

 

At this point GTA 4 will very much be in the final stages and in my opinion, the likelihood that GTA 4 will go gold without this fancy shmancy motion technology is high.

I don't think they made a new ragdoll engine or somthing for GTA IV while they already knew about this euphoria engine, this engine has prob been in development for a while so I keep my hopes up that it will be in GTA IV!!

 

Also it could be they had an agreement together for a while but they didn't wanted to let the world know about it cause they didn't want ANY info to be released about GTA: IV, so this is maybe the beginning of many more info biggrin.gif

 

so fingers crossed

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jorim
I don't know why everyone is jumping the gun and presuming that this technology will be present in GTA 4. The development of games using euphoria and other systems of this type is not new. It is being used in the new Indiana Jones game among many others which have been in development for a long time.

 

At this point GTA 4 will very much be in the final stages and in my opinion, the likelihood that GTA 4 will go gold without this fancy shmancy motion technology is high.

I don't think they made a new ragdoll engine or somthing for GTA IV while they already knew about this euphoria engine, this engine has prob been in development for a while so I keep my hopes up that it will be in GTA IV!!

 

Also it could be they had an agreement together for a while but they didn't wanted to let the world know about it cause they didn't want ANY info to be released about GTA: IV, so this is maybe the beginning of many more info biggrin.gif

 

so fingers crossed

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Jordan

Strange to get this press release and then the confirmation on when we get episodic content and then get a trailer release date within 3 days.

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Stefan.

Makes sense.

 

Perhaps in another 3 days, our first screenshot will come.

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K^2
In other words, the neat stuff doesn't have to be a performance bottleneck. The game engine (RAGE?) might just use it when possible - i.e. when you're not detonating a mall full of people. tounge.gif In more complicated scenes, the game might resort to regular ragdoll animation. Sorta like the adaptive level of texture detail we've seen in SA (can't remember if it was in the other 3D GTAs).

That is true, and would work great for a football game. The problem is that GTA isn't one. Characters aren't tackled very often, and when they do, it's usually with a car, so they tend to become dead. And postmortem, they tend not to move much on their own, so a simple ragdoll would suffice.

 

Here is the quote from article that Jordan was referring to.

 

Based on NaturalMotion’s DMS technology, euphoria uses the processing power of PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 to simulate the human body and motor nervous system, thus creating fully interactive game characters that act differently every time. With euphoria, games move away from canned animation, towards a much richer, life-like experience that is unique to the player.

This is an application where the Euphoria replaces animation system, which would look great in GTA, but this is exactly the kind of situation where it would drain way too much processing power.

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Helsinki

 

In other words, the neat stuff doesn't have to be a performance bottleneck. The game engine (RAGE?) might just use it when possible - i.e. when you're not detonating a mall full of people. tounge.gif In more complicated scenes, the game might resort to regular ragdoll animation. Sorta like the adaptive level of texture detail we've seen in SA (can't remember if it was in the other 3D GTAs).

That is true, and would work great for a football game. The problem is that GTA isn't one. Characters aren't tackled very often, and when they do, it's usually with a car, so they tend to become dead. And postmortem, they tend not to move much on their own, so a simple ragdoll would suffice.

That there aren't any tackles in the current GTA games is irrelevant, and sounds like circular reasoning: "there are no tackles in GTA, so euphoria would be useless - thus it won't be used. And since it's not used, there can't be tackles in GTA." There are countless situations where euphoria (or similar technology) could be used. Punching someone, for instance, rarely results in ragdoll-like collapse in real life. wink.gif

 

 

Here is the quote from article that Jordan was referring to.

 

Based on NaturalMotion’s DMS technology, euphoria uses the processing power of PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 to simulate the human body and motor nervous system, thus creating fully interactive game characters that act differently every time. With euphoria, games move away from canned animation, towards a much richer, life-like experience that is unique to the player.

This is an application where the Euphoria replaces animation system, which would look great in GTA, but this is exactly the kind of situation where it would drain way too much processing power.

Please read my post again, and you will hopefully see my point. Since euphoria is called when needed, and can be seamlessly used in parallel with other animation, it can be used when - and only when - the simplicity of the situation allows it. Enter another explosion, and - BANG - the game engine will only use the more mundane stuff. Sorta like this:

 

 

if (number_of_people_involved < LIMIT) useEuphoria();else useRagdoll();

 

 

I'm not saying that euphoria will be used, or that it's even very likely - only that I wouldn't be surprised to see some of that stuff in GTA IV.

 

BTW, I think that talk about "motor nervous system" is a bit misleading... They just have some restrictions for limb movement, attributes for strength - that kind of stuff, coupled with some kind of a physics engine. Impressive, but not sci-fi.

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Starion

 

I don't think they made a new ragdoll engine or somthing for GTA IV while they already knew about this euphoria engine, this engine has prob been in development for a while so I keep my hopes up that it will be in GTA IV!!

 

Also it could be they had an agreement together for a while but they didn't wanted to let the world know about it cause they didn't want ANY info to be released about GTA: IV, so this is maybe the beginning of many more info biggrin.gif

 

 

No-one really gets it do they..

 

Its not a game engine but simply a addon to a game engine to give each character a seperate "brain"

 

@Jordan:

Mabye r* have seen how slow the gta community has been and have decided to stir up some hype for everyone?

Edited by starion

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K^2

@Helsinki

 

1) GTA is primarily about gun combat, not hand to hand, so why would you have tackling?

2) Yes, I know that it can be activated only at certain times, but that would be pointless in GTA. Other than using it for animation, the only times when something really changes, the characters die. So you can just use ragdoll.

3) This

 

BTW, I think that talk about "motor nervous system" is a bit misleading... They just have some restrictions for limb movement, attributes for strength - that kind of stuff, coupled with some kind of a physics engine. Impressive, but not sci-fi.

Requires Euphoria engine running instead of the animation. That means consistently using up CPU clocks. And yes, I realize that "motor nervous system" here is paraphrasing for the sake of people who don't know anything about game engines. What we are really talking about is controlling a character model by applying forces to the skeleton, rather than setting angles from animation.

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Helsinki

 

1) GTA is primarily about gun combat, not hand to hand, so why would you have tackling?

You'd be able to catch someone without hurting him (good for some missions). Also, the cops could arrest you the way they would do in real life - tackling, not beating you to death.

 

Why you brought this up, I don't know. I already said there are countless other situations that would benefit from euphoria.

 

 

2) Yes, I know that it can be activated only at certain times, but that would be pointless in GTA. Other than using it for animation, the only times when something really changes, the characters die. So you can just use ragdoll.

It must be horrible to have no imagination. tounge.gif

 

 

3) This

 

BTW, I think that talk about "motor nervous system" is a bit misleading... They just have some restrictions for limb movement, attributes for strength - that kind of stuff, coupled with some kind of a physics engine. Impressive, but not sci-fi.

Requires Euphoria engine running instead of the animation. That means consistently using up CPU clocks. And yes, I realize that "motor nervous system" here is paraphrasing for the sake of people who don't know anything about game engines. What we are really talking about is controlling a character model by applying forces to the skeleton, rather than setting angles from animation.

So?

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Mr.Mister

If they are going to use this technology, I'm guessing that when you hit someone or something while driving, they will go flipping into the air (Like in Saints Row), not flat like a pancake. I hope GTA IV includes skydiving.

 

 

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rebalrouser

having viewed the Euphoria technology im guess that every single building in GTA IV will be emtirely destructable

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Mr.Mister
having viewed the Euphoria technology im guess that every single building in GTA IV will be emtirely destructable

I dont think so but I'm sure lightposts will be harder to destory and you can break windows too. Also, driving in gravel roads and bumpy sidewalks will be hard too, especially in the rain.

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MJ2k

I know this is sort of old news now, but I just noticed a new news post on the GTA4.net home page.

 

Over the past week, we have learned that NaturalMotion is not only working in collaboration with Rockstar Games, the publishing label, but more specifically, with Rockstar North, the development studio in charge of making Grand Theft Auto IV. Rockstar has several developers' studios, including London (Manhunt 2), Vancouver (Bully), and San Diego (Midnight Club). Rockstar North, however, has been in charge of developing the last 3 big GTA games (GTA 3, GTA Vice City and GTA San Andreas), and has been reportedly working on the next-generation GTA since 2005.

 

In this light, the inclusion of euphoria in GTA seems quite definite, therefore we would like to take the opportunity to clarify what it is that NaturalMotion and its euphoria engine can do, and how its functions can (and will) be used for the next Grand Theft Auto.

Can we get a source for this?

Or some sort of explanation as to where this knowledge was 'learned'?

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GycuBrun

Damn it`ll be cool if they`re gonna use it in GTA 4 `cuz ragdoll phisics are not that great.In Saints Row are exagerated,I mean you hit a car and it "jumps" 20 meters in the air,you hit a ped and it flows 10 meters in the air...WTF in real life it`s not like that....Euphoria is much more colser than ragdoll to rea life phisics...

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DigitalD
I know this is sort of old news now, but I just noticed a new news post on the GTA4.net home page.

 

Over the past week, we have learned that NaturalMotion is not only working in collaboration with Rockstar Games, the publishing label, but more specifically, with Rockstar North, the development studio in charge of making Grand Theft Auto IV. Rockstar has several developers' studios, including London (Manhunt 2), Vancouver (Bully), and San Diego (Midnight Club). Rockstar North, however, has been in charge of developing the last 3 big GTA games (GTA 3, GTA Vice City and GTA San Andreas), and has been reportedly working on the next-generation GTA since 2005.

 

In this light, the inclusion of euphoria in GTA seems quite definite, therefore we would like to take the opportunity to clarify what it is that NaturalMotion and its euphoria engine can do, and how its functions can (and will) be used for the next Grand Theft Auto.

Can we get a source for this?

Or some sort of explanation as to where this knowledge was 'learned'?

Well there's not much left to say. NaturalMotion is on-site at Rockstar North, which can only mean that the cooperation notice from end of last month is also applying to Grand Theft Auto IV.

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uzi 9mm

This is very good news, now we know they are working with R*North it's near certain.

 

And K^2 what you were saying was stupid, really.

 

To say the engine will be pointless in GTA4, what are you saying? Why shouldn't GTA 4 be hand on combat? If every character has a brain you'll see things you never see peds do, which is anything you can do.

 

Don't you understand since GTA is a mission based game, and euphoria is able to change the way missions look a second time round, it is the most suitable thing to use. Not pointless. With an engine like that story mode would be replayable many times over, since the missions will look different a second time round.

 

And what does it mean for free roaming? With euphoria the free roam would last a longer, seeing people shot down in the same animation everytime soon get's boring, and even ragdoll is pre set animations so once you've shot a person in every limb available it will looking familiar soon, except of courrse the positions they land will look different sometimes, but with euphoria seeing the same thing twice may actually be a treat as you may never see that type of animation for a while to come, but most will look different always.

 

I think you are under-estimating natual moon big time. It's easy to break it down as simple inputting force into models, but if it's so simple why wasn't it in the PS2 games? You make it sound like it's nothing but it is good for a game like GTA.

 

Don't forget the material properties, something else worth noting, loads of stuff like wood, metal and any sort of material have been made to be as close to real as can be, and it look very real in a video game, once again, the type of damage done to whatever it is you are breaking will never look the same twice.

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racecar

im reddy for gta4... not sher if im gunna get a ps3 or x-box for it... ill let it come out and see what sounds good cool.giframpage_ani.gifrahkstar2.gif

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Kernel32

I bet the statements came out because the trailer is gonna show us the use of Euphoria smile.gif

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Mike0

All will be known when the time is right. Then shall the GTA Fans live happily until october of this year which is 2007 biggrin.gif

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Stefan.

We'll see in the trailer as to whether it's there or not.

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GycuBrun

Well this Euphoria "thing" is gonna be "good" and "bad" .

Good:Much more realistic movement,damage,maybe more blood so we can see wounds,injuries, unlimited fun ,much more fun when always is different when you punch/grab/shoot/throw someone

 

Bad:This is bad for your character.He must have "nervous system" too ,just as all peds.So you`ll die very easy,fall from 10 meters and you`re dead,near an explotion you`ll fly like a bird and instantaly die,someone shoots you with 2 bullets in the head and you`re dead.TOO REALISTIC.

 

But maybe your character will need to take 2x more damage than the peds so Euphoria will be only good.

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