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GTA3Freak-2001

The *NEW* London Dossier

Recommended Posts

GTA3Freak-2001

 

Intro

 

Since Medallion Man hasn't been around much since last year and since his original has had to be locked for its sheer post count slowing down the forums I'd thought it would only be fitting to start a new topic with his original post that started it all.

 

 

 

The London Tourist Board Proudly Present:
user posted image
FACTS: The London Dossier
A Brief Introduction.

The main purpose of this thread is to be the DEFINITIVE discussion/promotion topic for the inclusion of a London inspired setting in the next GTA.

 

Basically the aims of this thread are three fold:

 

• Firstly: It was initially intended as a means for me to disprove all those claiming that London is an unsuitable location for a city in/the next GTA to be based around. It was and is naturally successful on that score as any such claims are completely fallacious in nature. Besides the fact that London has already been used as inspiration for an installment in the GTA franchise, by definition, proves that it is suitable. QED.

 

• Secondly: This thread is here to explain the reasons why I truly believe that London is the ideal candidate for basing the next GTA around. The opinion section. My reasoning is based around what I see from GTA cities to date and is totally logic-led in nature. My reasons for thinking the way I do are never any less than reasonable.

 

• Thirdly, finally and most importantly at this point: This thread is also here to act as a guide to London, to its sights, not always salubrious and its people, not always saintly. Basically to let the otherwise uninformed in on what to expect from any GTA based around London/the UK and just what London/the UK has to offer the series. To jump to this section of the thread, the Tourist Information Index: click here.

 

The thread contents is split into sections to make it easier for you to find whatever you came into this thread for. There's a lot of content to cover, this should help you cover it..

 

London on Wikepedia link. If you want to know more about London you might want to check out London on Wikepedia.

Contents
As well as dealing with the arguments this initial post serves as a hub for the rest of the thread.The following is a table of contents/index that should help you find what you are looking for. The table is an index of the points of interest of this thread, giving a description and link to some of the threads more noteworthy posts.
//Section One: Anti London Arguments Countered.
If you are opposed to or unsure of the idea of the next GTA game containing a city based upon London, the chances are that each and every one of your perceived 'reasons' as to why such a location would be unviable (would "suck"), have been dealt with in this section.

 

Please refer to this section if you believe that you have some 'reason' that a London inspired setting would not work, would "suck", or be "gay" in the next GTA game.

Post Description and Link Pg No. Summary of Post
The Arguments-Part One-This Post 1 This initial post deals with so called anti-London 'arguments'. This post is split up in to three sections. Part one deals with the following anti-London 'arguments':(mostly ignorant misconceptions) "London is too small", "London is mono-cultured", "London is crime free","London has no gangsta's", "In London guns are illegal and in GTA laws count", "London is just boring castles and palaces and no skyscrapers"
The Arguments-Part Deux-Click Here 1 This is the second section of the initial post. This section also deals with anti-London 'arguments'. The 'arguments' dealt with in this section are generally the more irrational arguments, some of these arguments are racist, some of these arguments are based upon personal preference but not one of them is based on any facts or the process of reason. Part Deux of the arguments deals with the following anti-London arguments:"It wuld BeE jUs leik TeH gEtwaY cuz R* dEEt MAke tAhT", "bud I dun lide da GTA 69", "British accents are GAY111", "Rong Seid of Teh RowD", "London has No Music", "London can't fit in with the rest of GTA's stories".
Further Considerations-Click Here 1 This is the third section of the initial post. This section looks beyond the anti-London arguments, which have by now been nullified and deals with some further considerations. This post looks at what it is needed from a GTA location, what it is exactly that makes a good GTA location, explains why London is the superior choice for the next GTA, explains why real world statistics are of very little relevance to GTA, looks at some story approaches for employing a London setting with various other locales, Looks at what time period would get the best out of a London setting and finally looks at some of the films that could be used to give R* inspiration for a London GTA.
The Conclusion-Click Here 1 This is the final section of the initial post. This is the end of the first post in this thread and is thus the conclusion. You all know what a conclusion is, it’s the bit at the end where everything gets summed up and you are told what you will realise if you read this thread properly, that there is no better location for the next GTA than London.FACT!
//Section Two: Why London?
This section contains reasoning and argument as to just why I believe that a move for GTA away from the United States is not only beneficial but also necessary to the continued quality and success of the series.

 

This section explains my opinion: why I see London as the ideal candidate city for the next GTA installment to be based around and why yet another U.S inspired GTA would, like, totally suck.

Post Description and Link Pg No. Summary of Post
Unfamiliar Familiarity-Click Here 6 This post details further some of the reasons why London is an ideal city for inspiring a future GTA location. This post talks about how though London is extremely different to any city in the U.S it still has many similarities with U.S cities and why this make it the ideal location for the next GTA
London Vs Everywhere Else-Click Here 6 This post is a rather excellent post by farrugia in which he puts forwards some very well reasoned points as to just why London is the ideal location for the next GTA to be based around. farrugia weighs up the pro’s and con’s of every location imaginable and comes to the conclusion that London is the best place for GTA4. Read his post to find out why...
//Section Three: Tourist Information.
This section is perfectly explained by its title: Tourist information. For those of you who are unfamiliar with Londons sights, sounds and people, this section covers them in detail. The section will cover well known locations that would have to be included in a twisted GTA London to capture the atmosphere of the city and also delves into Londons underbelly...The section will also introduce you to the gangs and cultures of the city, to help you better form your opinions based around reality, if you need to of course.

 

This section of the Dossier takes you on a guided tour of London. The section will take you to some of londons tourist sights as well locations you’d be best to avoid after dark. You’ll also meet some of the gangs and people of the city in this section.

Post Description and Link Pg No. Summary of Post
Gangs of Lowdown Town-Click Here 5 This post is an overview of the types of gang we could expect to see in any GTA: ‘London’, gangs like the Yardies, Triads, Russian Mafia and Cockney Firms.
Tourist Information Index-Click Here 18 This post is crucial reading for those that want to know what to expect from a GTA London as well as those who are prepared to inform their opinion before the espouse it. The index for posts all about London.
The GTA-London Checklist-Click Here 7 The GTA-London Checklist A.K.A what can be done in GTA and can it be done in London and a London set GTA. Simple.
Emphasis on Architecture-Click Here 6 This post is a short post that uses some photo’s to illustrate and emphasise the sheer diversity present in London architecture.
Joey’s Revenge-Click Here N/A This post was the original companion piece to this thread. Joey’s Revenge is a story based around Joey Leone from GTA3 that is intended to give a simple insight into how a London inspired setting could fit into a global set GTA and the existing GTA mythos. The post is a simple story outline detailing Joey Leone’s flight from Liberty to London in the aftermath of GTA3 and how he set out to regain control of Liberty City
Addendum:Topic Guidelines, The Purpose of this Thread.
This section acts as a guide to the thread. This section contains posting “guidelines” and an extended introduction to the thread. It’s that simple, please read these guidelines before you post so that you can contribute in a completely worthwhile fashion to this topic. Basically I don’t want it to turn into some petty flame-fest. Even if I am flame retardant.
Topic Guidelines, Please Read
Before I start I want to make a point of stating that you shouldn’t take this thread literally insofar as we all know that Rockstar are far more likely to create a game city based upon London than attempt to faithfully-recreate it; when I speak of London I am more than likely speaking of a city inspired by it; nor am I necessarily suggesting that ‘London’ would be the only city in GTAIV, but merely that it should be in there in the first place; I would also like to point out that, whilst it may be true that I am a Londoner, this is not the sole reason that I believe that London is the ideal place for GTAIV, reading the thread will bear this out and any assertion to the contrary is no more than ad hominem. Please read the thread properly before you contribute.
London is a suitable GTA location.
Before I start dealing with the fallacious anti-London arguments I would like to briefly explain the fundemental fact that London is and always will be a suitable basis of inspiration for GTA. Logic. I will also explain why personal preference has no bearing on this fact.

//Is London Suitable as a Basis of Inspiration for GTA? Why is personal preference irrelevant?

Fundamentally the answer to the question of whether or not London is a suitable location to take as a basis of inspiration for GTA or not the answer is: yes it is.

 

Why?

 

Well the fact is this: London has been used as a basis of inspiration for gta, ergo London is suitable as a basis of inspiration for GTA; therefore there are no reasons to claim that London is unsuitable as a basis of inspiration for GTA.

 

This is pure logic, supportable by the fact of reality (that London has been used as a basis of inspiration for gta) and it is binding.

 

Beyond that it has everything else needed from a GTA location (large city, cars, crime gangs, shootings etc), which will be dealt with in the rest of this thread; that is irrelevant however, as the above principle is binding and proof positive of London’s suitability as a basis of inspiration for GTA.

 

Now that being the case I’d like to touch upon individual personal preference and explain why it has no bearing on London’s (or anywhere else for that matter) suitability as a prospective GTA location.

 

Now imbecile X might ask “but I don’t like it, does this not make it unsuitable?”

 

The answer to his question is: no.

 

Let me explain...

 

When I say: “London has been used as a basis of inspiration for gta, ergo London is suitable as a basis of inspiration for GTA; therefore there are no reasons to claim that London is unsuitable as a basis of inspiration for GTA.” I am making a statement of fact, no less; it is supported by reality, it is purest logic, it proves London’s suitability, it is universally binding.

 

When Imbecile X says: “I don’t like cheese.” he does no more than state his personal opinion; it is his own personal preference, no more, it is relevant only to him.

 

The fact that Imbecile X “doesn’t like cheese” does not mean that cheese is unfit for human consumption.

 

Neither does it negate the fact that someone else does “like” cheese.

 

Personal preference affects only the individual: yours does not over rule mine, neither does mine over rule yours (unless yours is based upon fallacies).

 

Personal preference has no bearing on these realities, neither does it have any bearing on the suitability of London as a basis of inspiration for GTA.

 

London has been used as a basis of inspiration for gta, ergo London is suitable as a basis of inspiration for GTA; therefore there are no reasons to claim that London is unsuitable as a basis of inspiration for GTA.

 

London is suitable as a basis of inspiration for GTA.

 

Now that we have that sorted out I will go on to first: deal with any invalid reason that individuals might suggest that London is unsuitable as a basis of inspiration for GTA or why they might misguidedly dislike the idea, and second: explain why I personally believe that London is the best place for GTAIV.

 

 

//Section One: Anti-London Arguments Countered. Part 1.
Now I have no problem with individuals preferring another location over London, nor even if they should dislike the idea. However if these people don not have valid reason for holding such views then I will attempt to educate their opinion with fact and logic. That is what this section is here for, it deals with any and all invalid, illogical or false ‘reason’ that anti-London idiots generally put forwards to substantiate their (utterly) fallacious claim that London is unsuitable as a basis for GTA.

 

This is the first of two such sections and it debases the following ‘arguments’: “Isn’t London small?”, “London isn’t a melting pot”, “Isn’t London crime free, Isn’t GTA a crime statistic simulator?”, "Aren’t there no gangs in London", "In London guns are illegal and in GTA laws count", "What about sky-scrapers?”

// London: BIG.

Bizzarely, some people think that London is small. This was one of the first 'reasons' I ever saw presented as to why London was unsuitable for GTA: that it is "small". Now that's weird because London is bigger than any city in the U.S, in terms of land mass, all of them.

 

This section sets the record straight and states the facts to show just how huge London really is.

 

Before I start I am not claiming that London is the ideal candidate for the next GTA city to be based around purely because it is an extremely large city, nor am I pretending that it has the worlds highest population. I also know that certain cities in the world (generally the third world) have larger populations than London, though it still possess a larger population than most and is pretty much the worlds largest city in terms of land mass.

 

All I am doing here is proving that London is more than big enough to base an interesting, diverse GTA city around.

 

Size is of course a factor when considering prospective GTA locations, generally the larger a city is the more diverse it is in terms of both architecture and in the ethnicity of it’s inhabitants, there are of course exceptions to that rule but London is not one of them. In Londons case it’s size is due to it’s age and it’s global lure; over the centuries it has grown outward and attracted more and more people from all corners of the world who flock there in search of what they believe to be a better life.

 

As I say Londons sheer size, as well as her age, has made her a city that is arguably the most diverse in the world in terms of architectural variety, with ancient structures that are millennia old along with progressive modern architecture and skyscrapers. Additionally all of these factors which are directly related to the cities size are also linked to it’s propensity for breeding crime; due to her size and what that size has led to London has always attracted ethnic migrants who come in search of a better life but often find themselves with nothing but broken dreams in an unforgiving foreign city, which can lead them to turn to crime. All of this will be dealt with in more detail shortly but it is linked to the factor of size and merits a mention here.

 

Beyond all of that it goes without saying that we all want an expansive playground in the next GTA...

 

The claim that London is "too small and boring for GTA"is a complete fallacy.

 

London is and always has been one of the biggest , most important and well known cities on this planet; it is a Global City. The Getaways London is but a small, incomplete section of the city. I know, I live here.

 

City Size Comparisons :

City Population Land Area (Square Miles)
London 7,593,300 620 sq mi
U.S Cities
New York (LC) 8,091,700 303 sq mi
Los Angeles (LS) 3,485,398 469 sq mi
Chicago 2,783,726 227 sq mi
Philadelphia 1,479,339 135 sq mi
Detroit 911,402 139 sq mi
San Francisco (SF) 751,682 47 sq mi
Boston 581,616 48 sq mi
Seattle 569,101 84 sq mi
Washington D.C 563,384 61 sq mi
Las Vegas (LV) 517,017 113 sq mi
New Orleans 469,032 181 sq mi
Miami (VC) 376,815 36 sq mi
Buffalo 350,000
Global Cities
Moscow 9,000,000
Tokyo 8,294,200
Hong Kong 6,843,000
Rio De Janeiro 5,547,033
Sydney 3,713,500
Toronto 2,400,000
(Yellow=London, Green=Already used in GTA)

 

Figures from infoplease.com

 

Here I must make a point of stating that the population figures above a for the city limits as are the land mass figures, this is because those figures are directly representative of the city proper. Urban Agglomerate/Metropolitan figures take into account surrounding areas and cities and are thus missrepresentative of a cities true size. GTA games are more focused upon the city than the suburbs.

 

All this is of course besides the point as GTA is not a population statistic simulator and sheer population size is not one of the most important factors in ascertaining the potential of a Location to inspire the next GTA.

 

More important than population is Londons sheer size in Land mass, it makes London the diverse city it is and gives R* a lot to work with when building a large playground for the player.

 

As I say there are many more important factors to consider regarding prospective GTA locations than sheer size.remember I am not pretending that London has the largest population I am merely making the point that it is more than big enough to base a GTA location around as at 620square miles and a population of nearly 8 million it is one of the very largest cities in the world in any terms.

 

London is and always has been one of the worlds very largest cities. If London is not a large enough city to base a GTA location around then nowhere in the world is. FACT.

 

// Multi-Cultural London: The World In One City.

Looking at the existing GTA games it would seem that ethnic diversity is a key requirement for a prospective GTA location as it determines the variety of a cities gangs scene. For some reason some people seek to fallaciously claim that “only U.S cities are ethnic/cultural melting pots” or that “London has no ethnic diversity”. This is odd because London is one of the most ethnically diverse cities on the planet.

 

This section sets the record straight and states the facts to show just how ethnically diverse a multi-cultured melting pot London is.

 

London is one of the most ethnically diverse and richly multi-cultural cities in the world, as the following statistics bear out:

 

London Population Ethnic Breakdown

London Total Population: 7,593,300

Ethnicity Population
White British 4,288,193
Total Ethnic Minorities 3,305,107
White Irish 220,000
Other white: non-British (Russian, Eastern Europeans etc) 595,000
Black African 378,686
Black Caribbean 343,543
Black other 60,245
Indian 436,780
Pakistani 142,724
Bangladeshi 154,199
Chinese 80,327
Other Asian(Japanese, Korean etc) 133,400
All Others(South Americans, Australian, American etc) 113,319

(Source)

 

Meaning that almost half of Londons population is made up of ethnic minorities at 3,305,107. A population that is bigger than the total population of all but two U.S cities: NY and L.A

 

Furthermore: over 300 languages are spoken in London, making it the most linguistically diverse city in the world.

 

Just from personal experience I know we have;

Indians/Pakistanis/Bangladeshis

Africans

Jamaican and people of Caribbean origin

Chinese/Koreans/Japanese

Turkish/Greek

Italian/Spanish/Portuguese

Eastern Europeans ie Ukrainians/Russians/Poles

Balkan europeans ie Kosovans/Albanians

South Americans i.e Brazilians/Colombians

Yiddish (Jews) communities

Aussies

and not forgetting plenty of Irish, all living in London. That’s simply an ad hoc list from personal knowledge, if there is a nationality in the world it most likely has ex-patriots living in London today.

 

London simply IS one of the most ethnically diverse, multi-cultural centres on the planet.

 

London is full of rich cultural enclaves like Brick Lane, Chinatown and Little Venice, areas of London like Brent and Newham are already minority Boroughs. Much of the city is heading towards becoming predominantly minority areas, in areas such as the East End, from Whitechapel to Ilford you are more likely to meet someone from an ethnic minority than an Englishman.

 

 

(Source)

 

Children from ethnic minorities will be in the majority in London's schools within a few years as accelerating population shifts transform the composition of the capital.

 

Figures released yesterday show that the proportion of whites living in London fell by almost 8 per cent during the 1990s because of an influx of new residents.

 

In a decade of unprecedented population change, large numbers of Africans, Bangladeshis and Sri Lankans arrived in the fastest-growing city in Western Europe.

 

In Newham and Brent, ethnic minority groups outnumber white people.

 

One of the most striking trends has been the doubling of the capital's black African community to 370,000, with large increases in the numbers of people born in such countries as Nigeria, Somalia, Ghana and Kenya. The trend indicates that black Africans will shortly pass Indians (437,000) as the most numerous ethnic group in the city.

 

Over the period the number of Bangladeshis rose by nearly three-quarters and Pakistanis by more than half, while the much smaller South American community trebled.

 

A total of 58 per cent of Londoners describe themselves as Christian, 8.5 per cent (607,000) as Muslim, 4 per cent (292,000) as Hindu, 2.1 per cent (150,000) as Jewish and 1.5 per cent (104,000) as Sikh. More than one million (16 per cent) had no religion.

Whilst addressing the multi-cultural factor I would like to point out that Londons sheer ethno-cultural diversity is one of the key reasons that I believe it is the ideal candidate for the next GTA.

 

Why Is Multi-Cultural/Ethnic Diversity Important in GTA?

Ethnic diversity is something which has made GTA as interesting as it is and remains one of the more important factors when considering prospective GTA locations. The depth and variety of cultures present in any candidate city dictates the depth and variety of the characters and gangs that could be present in a GTA location based around them.

 

In a city that is predominantly mono-cultured you will end up with characters and gangs that are predominantly mono-cultured and thus bland and uninteresting, each gang or character would be variations on one, narrow, theme.

 

In a city that is multi-cultural with a wide and diverse range of ethnicities present you will end up with characters that are equally diverse and gangs that are directly representative of the many cultures that are present and in conflict in that city.

 

Ergo a game set in a city that has a large and diverse spectrum of ethnicities will produce a game that is far more colourful and varied than a game set in a city that is dominated by one indigenous culture.

 

That is why Londons rich multi-cultural nature makes her a more interesting location than a more predominantly mono-cultured city (i.e Mexico City) as it gives more options to Rockstar when designing the gangs and characters that will drive the game.

 

London is as ethnically diverse a melting pot as ANY other city in the world. FACT

 

// Crime: The Reality/ Why It Is Irrelevant.

This section deals with several popular misconceptions, the first being that crime rates are the most important factor in deciding GTA locations (it isn't); the second, that the U.S.A is the most crime ridden place on the planet (it isn't); the third, that the UK is crime free (it isn't); and finally, that GTA is a realistic crime simulator that tracks the number of ingame kills and keeps them in line with the corresponding real life figures from warzone U.S.A (it doesn't).

 

This section sets the record straight on crime, using facts to prove that crime is not an important factor when deciding GTA locations, that the U.S.A is far from the most crime ridden country, that crime exists in the UK and using logic to explain that GTA is not in any way bound by real world crime rates.

 

Before I prove and explain just why real world crime rates are an irrelevance to GTA I would like to set the record straight on crime, including its level of prevalence in both Great Britain and the U.S.A.

 

The FACTS about crime.

 

Some people claim that the U.S.A has the highest level of crime in the world. This claim is false. The reality (as shown here) is that Dominica has the highest level of crime in the world.

 

The fact is: the U.S has the 8th highest crime rate in the world, not the highest.

 

Some people claim that the UK has a low level of crime and that the U.S.A's crime level is higher. This claim is false. The reality (as shown here) is that the UK has a higher overall level of crime than the U.S.A.

 

The fact is: the UK has a higher overall level of crime than the U.S and you are more likely to be a victim of crime in the UK than the U.S.

 

Furthermore: the rate of car crime in the UK (the crime from which Grand Theft Auto takes its name) is substantially higher than that of the U.S. (As shown here).

 

"People living in England and Wales are at greater risk of falling victim to crime than citizens of most other industrialised nations...England and Wales were second only to Australia in the examination of "victimisation rates"...The percentage of the population which suffered "contact crime" in England and Wales was 3.6 per cent, compared with 1.9 per cent in the United States and 0.4 per cent in Japan...People in England and Wales were at greater risk than anywhere else of having their cars stolen: 2.6 per cent fell victim to vehicle theft. The average rate was 1.2 per cent and the Japanese were least likely to have their cars stolen with a victim rate of just 0.1 per cent."

 

user posted image

 

Some people claim that the U.S.A has the highest murder rate in the world and that, as murder is the specific crime with the most relevance to GTA (or so they claim), this makes the U.S.A the 'best' place for GTA. This claim is false. The reality (as shown here) is that there are 23nations with higher murder rates than the U.S.A.

 

The fact is: the U.S has the 23rd highest murder rate in the world, not the highest.

 

Other people claim that it is murder rates with fire arms that are more important and that the U.S has more of those than anywhere else. Again: this claim is false.The reality (as shown here) is that there are 3nations with higher substantially higher fire arm murder rates than the U.S.A.

 

The fact is: South Africa has the highest fire arm murder rate in the world, not the U.S.

 

So: people that claim that the U.S.A has higher crime levels than anywhere else are patently incorrect, the claim is a falsehood, it is bullsh*t and the idea that GTA is/should be set in the U.S.A, because of its having the highest crime rates, is fundamentally disproven. Equally disproven is any claim that the UK is an unsuitable setting for GTA on the grounds that it has a low crime rate, the fact is: the UK's overall crime rate is higher than that of the U.S, as are its car theft levels.

 

Furthermore: Londons' organised criminal gangs have consistently pulled off bigger, more audacious, heists than any gang in the U.S ever has; from the Mafia to the Crips, none of them have pulled a heist that can compare to those taken down by London mobs. Londons organised gangs have a tradition of pulling off the worlds biggest and audacious robberies, in heists like the recent record breaking £53 million ($92.6 million USD) Securitas Depot Heist or the The 1983 Brinks Mat Robbery before it. Many of these heists, like the £200 million Millennium Dome Diamond heist are more audacious even than the wildest fantasies of Hollywood's finest scriptwriters, yet they actually happen in London.

 

To read more about how Londons criminal underworld consistently pull of grander heists than their U.S counter parts- click here.

 

Crime isn't something to be celebrated, it isn't a good thing to live in a country with high crime rates and crime rates are irrelevant to GTA, that's not the point: the point is that people who go around stating that there is more crime in the U.S than anywhere else (or even Britain), are simply ignoring the facts.

 

However, as I say, people who go on about real world crime levels are missing the point, it is an irrelevant debate...

 

Why real world crime rates are irrelevant.

The FACT is that real world crime rates are irrelevant to the suitability of GTA locations, two main factors prove this to be the case.

 

Firstly: as we have already seen, there are plenty of places with higher crime rates than the U.S.A, yet the recent GTA's have been set in the U.S.A. If crime rates, either overall or specific, were the most important factor then this would not be the case.

 

This is pretty straightforwards logic: supposing that overall crime rate was the key factor when deciding GTA locations, then the location with the highest overall crime rate would be selected. However, the fact is that, the country with the highest overall crime rate (Dominica) has not been chosen; the fact is that the country with the 8th highest overall crime rate (U.S.A) was. Ergo the overall level of crime is obviously not a very important factor when deciding where to set GTA.

 

Equally: supposing that murder rate was the key factor when deciding GTA locations then the location with the highest homicide rate would be selected. The fact is that the country with the highest homicide rate (Colombia) has not been chosen; the fact is that the country with the 23rd highest homicide rate (U.S.A) was. Ergo the homicide level is obviously not a very important factor when deciding where to set GTA.

 

Secondly: GTA exaggerates reality and crime beyond all corresponding real world proportions. GTA is not based upon, let alone bound by, real world crime statistics.

 

In GTA:SA my legitimate kill are up in the THOUSANDS. Since when did a homie in da hood in real South Central L.A go and kill thousands of people?! Let alone get away with it?! Real world crime rates clearly have no bearing WHATSOEVER on how we play GTA.

 

If you stand on a street corner in Los Santos you'll see a mugging a murder, gun fights etc every couple of minutes, if you stand on a street corner in the most violent area of Los Angeles all day long you're unlikely to see any of that. Compare the murder rate in your SA to those of the real L.A, hell my CJ's killed thousands, that's hardly realistic now is it?!

 

GTA is NOT real life, the U.S and it's cities are NOT warzones, Brooklyn is NOT Baghdad, L.A is NOT the Lebanon. Once again GTA is a twisted and exaggerated cartoon take on crime and violence.

 

Taking the game and setting it in a country with a lower murder rate will not mean that R* will impose a cap on how many people you can kill in the game to keep it directly representative of the real world murder statistics. They haven't done so already, if they had you wouldn't be able to kill more than a couple of people in any location to date. Just because London may have a lower crime rate than another given location this will not affect the gameplay in any way, the game will not suddenly stop you from killing anyone else once you reach a real world crime limit.

 

Setting a game in London will not mean that you are unable to kill, maim and cause as much general mayhem as you do in any other GTA to date.

 

The only logical conclusion that can be drawn is that there is more to what makes a good GTA location than crime or homicide rates, ergo crime rates (which, nonetheless, have been proven to be high in the UK) are an irrelevance.

 

There is crime in London. That is all that matters.

 

// Londons 400 gangs.

Apparently, according to some, there are no gangs in London. This is incorrect. There are gangs in London. Plenty.

 

This section sets the record straight on London’s many gangs, detailing facts about the many and varied criminal gangs that are present on her streets.

 

No gangs in London you say.

 

Oh but there are says I. Plenty. I can prove it to you.

 

According to this article which points to a police report that states that there are over 400 different gangs of varying degrees of organisation and size active in London today in a £25($46)billion industry. 400, enough for you?

 

As is the nature of large cities and the circumstances that they create for their inhabitants they are natural breeding grounds for crime. Crime is inherent in all major cities globally, it is part of their natural fabric. This was established in the previous section of this thread.

 

So if crime is a natural side effect of large grouping of people some of those people must be perpetrating said crime, in which case they are by definition criminals.

 

If Crime is an inherent part of the fabric of the city then so too must be criminals as they are the ones committing the crimes.

 

As is the nature of the beast criminals will form together to make groups of criminals, due to shared aims and values will come together for their common good. These groups of criminals will have a level of organisation and a hierarchy and will organise their crimes, by definition making them organised criminals. Organised criminals that work together in groups. Or gangs.

 

So; if crime and criminals are inherent parts of the fabric of the city then so two are groups of criminals or gangs.

 

Therefore gangs are also an inherent part of the fabric of the city Anywhere in the world that there are large urban groupings of people (cities) that are governed by laws there are people that make a living by generally breaking those laws and supplying the demand for illegal desires. London is no exception.

 

However unlike most cities outside of the U.S the sheer variety of gangs in London is quite exceptional, this is due to the factor of ethnic diversity as mentioned earlier.

 

Living in London I know there are plenty of gangs; Cockney Firms, Tongs, Triads, Yardies, Russian Mafia, Eastern European human traffickers ie Albanians, Turkish Mafia drug runners, South American drug runners, Black street/drug gangs, Skinhead National Front hooligans, Romany (irish) Gypsies, asian religious extremist gangs ie Sikhs, Hindus and not forgetting Chavscum (middle class kids who think they are Gangstas, see Ali G).

 

Plus all the Usual bent cop’s and corrupt businessmen and politicians, found in major cities.

 

A game set in London would enable R* to maintain the range and diversity of gangs present in GTA, thus keeping the game as colourful and interesting as possible. Unlike a game set in a mono-cultured city dominated by a couple of indigenous gangs that are a variation on a theme a game set in London would bring many totally contrasting types of gang to the fore. Additionally and unlike another game set in the U.S, a game set in London/UK would bring to the franchise a whole new set of gangs and attitudes rather than more variations on the same old same old hood$ and Mafia themes.

 

Beyond these facts it stands to logical reason that a city with a population of seven and a half million people will contain more poor people driven to crime and more ‘bad eggs’ on the whole than a city of less than one million inhabitants.

 

Please see page 5 for an in-depth breakdown of some of the gangs currently active in London.

 

To read about how Londons criminal underworld consistently pull of grander heists than their U.S counter parts- click here.

 

London contains MORE than enough criminal gangs, both organised and street level to base a GTA game around. FACT.

 

// Criminals: Break Laws!!! Including Gun Laws.

Some people choose to state that London/Great Britain is an unsuitable location for GTA to be based around as guns are illegal in the U.K. It is correct that that most guns are illegal in London. However, of course to state that London is unviable as guns are illegal there, is to fail to acknowledge that GTA is a game based upon the criminal perpetration of illegality and thus is quite ironic.

 

This section explains why gun laws are an irrelevance to criminals (i.e because they break laws), proves that guns are available to and used by criminals in London and that there is an armed police force in London.

 

Most guns are illegal in Great Britain.

 

However as I say above to use this as a means to promote the idea that London/The UK is an unviable location for GTA is quite the irony.

 

You see you must be aware of this by now but illegal pursuits are what GTA is fundamentally built around. In GTA we play the role of a criminal and more or less everything that we make our criminal do is inherently illegal. Infact when you take all that into account then it suits the game that our character owning and using firearms is totally illegal, infact the fact that this is so makes the prospect appeal to me all the more.

 

Like I say in GTA we control a criminal.

 

Well guess what?!

 

Criminals in London use guns.

 

So you see in a game where we control a criminal guns being illegal is an irrelevance, criminals don’t abide by laws, hence their being criminals!

 

Londons criminals have ready access to and use guns, this is pure fact.

Availability of guns in the UK

 

Criminals use guns in London, therefore in a GTA game where you control a criminal in London you can use guns. Simple

 

The game wouldn’t work any differently than it does now; use use the gun to kill people you get a wanted level, the more you kill with that gun the more your wanted level goes up. Exactly the same as in San Adreas or any other GTA game.

 

The only difference to the game between a GTA set in the U.S or a game set in the UK would be how you procure your firearms and the difference would be purely cosmetic, not affecting how we play the game at all. Naturally seeing as most guns are illegal over the counter in the UK Ammunation would have to go out the window. Instead we would need to go to an arms dealer to get hold of an arsenal of shooters.

 

In gameplay terms nothing need change at all, getting hold of weapons would be achieved by exactly the same means: Drive to location x (arms dealers garage in place of ammunation) and purchase weapon. Simple and exactly the same, having no affect whatsoever on how we play the game, all that would change would be the interior where we buy the weapons, which is not necessarily a bad thing. In place of Ammunation guy we get a crazy cockney or Jamaican gun dealer. Nothing really changes at all, we don’t have to do anything differently.

 

Infact the more you think about this being the method of acquiring guns in GTA London it begs the question as to whether the inclusion of such a dealer in SA (Emmet) was pure coincidence or a preparation for GTA London...?

 

Other ways of getting guns would remain like those found in military grounds or in gangs warehouses etc.

 

Besides GTA’s weapon procurement is hardly realistic at all, in the states only exceptionally stupid criminals would buy a gun that they intended to use on a killing spree from a licensed and fully traceable registered retailer! (Ammunation.) Equally I am sure that it is extremely rare to come across an abandoned AK-47 or flamethrower floating around in mid air in a magically illuminated circle even in America!

 

As far as beat bobbies not carrying guns goes well that is totally correct; beat bobbies (or foot patrol officers) do not carry firearms in the U.K.

 

However there are armed police in the UK that do carry firearms and they are quite a common sight in the capital these days.

 

If you take a stroll around London you are likely to encounter armed police with SMG’s they are there, they always have been because of the terrorism threat.

 

There are armed patrol units in London, this is pure fact.

 

The way that the police would react to you using firearms need not be changed in the next GTA, all that would happen, as does to date, would be that if you pull a firearm on an officer you receive a two star wanted level and police patrol cars complete with armed officers would be dispatched to your location, exactly the same as what happens in GTA to date.

 

All that needs to change is the reaction of the beat bobbies, they would naturally run away, that’s it, the rest of the game would remain the same; Acquire weapons by going to a given location and pick them up, use said weapon and acquire a wanted star which brings the attention of the police force, continue to use the weapon/use weapon against police and armed police and eventually special forces will be dispatched to deal with you. The same as always.

 

The Getaway worked armed police into the picture with no difficulty at all and unlike some have claimed this in no way entailed an ‘Americanisation’ as there are armed police on duty and on response in London all the time

 

Guns ARE available to and in use by criminals in London. FACT.

 

Armed police use guns in London. FACT.

 

//"What about sky-scrapers?”

Some people claim that London is a “boring” city visually because “all the buildings are old”. This is incorrect: London is an extremely diverse and varied city visually due to the fact that her buildings are extremely varied, far more varied than any city in the U.S. Visually London is pretty unique in the world in the way it combines the historical with the cutting edge.

 

This section explains that London has both historical architecture (reaching back millennia in some cases) that sits along side the most progressive and modern buildings, including modern skyscrapers.

 

The most unique facet of London is undoubtedly her physical form which is totally unlike that of any other city anywhere in the world and it directly illustrates the story of the city from it’s rich past to it’s diverse multi cultured inhabitants.

 

One of the things I love about SA is its Diversity, the difference between each city and then the countryside and the hick backwaters. To keep the series new this is the key factor. For GTA: Diversity=Freshness.

 

Well London is a microcosm of this. A city with two millennia (2000 years) worth of history and change. It is unique to the world in its diversity, what other city has both castles and skyscrapers? Unlike Paris or Rome it is a progressive city not rooted to the past and unlike US cities it has a diverse history. Only 200 years ago most US cities were little more than wood built cattle towns, Londoners and London money meanwhile were building the world.

 

Infact with regards to U.S cities, the only ones that would really bring any freshness to the series as physical settings would be Washington D.C and thats mainly a political centre or New Orleans and that is more well known for mardi gras than murder rates.

 

Most major U.S cities are built to the same formula and are identical on the most fundamental level ie Skyscrapers downtown, slums/projects for the poor, industrial areas and then the moneyed areas, the suburbs where the well off live. It is because they all evolved around the same time and have very little history. The lack of history means that there was very little existing architecture when modern buildings were constructed. Planners had a blank canvas.

 

When I say this I do not mean that they are identical at the surface level I am talking about them on the most fundamental and basic/reduced, city planning/architectural level. Like I say many of them grew at around the same time and they are pretty much all based around the same successful formula of the‘Chicago School’

The buildings are basically the same, the only difference regarding a visual setting would come from the geographical setting and we have already covered most of these, hills, desert, tropical etc. The only man made physical differences in architecture would be how big or pointy the skyscrapers are.

 

London Meanwhile has structures dating back to Roman times and modern structures under construction right now. It is completely diverse as it has grown and evolved over 2000 years. No two areas of London are the same, Medieval architecture can be found standing next to modern. Sometimes these contrasts are violent.

 

Look at the contrast between St.Pauls Cathedral and the shimmering glass and steel Cathedrals to Capitalism that are the Docklands Skyscrapers. Now imagine a crown jewels heist side missions arc, etc.

 

I can be pretty confident when I say London also contains more variety in its architecture and layout than any other city on earth. London’s streets have evolved of two millennia from the Roman occupation right down to modern construction underway as we speak. A game based on London would bring us a city that would be more visually rich and varied than any that the series has shown us to date.

 

See page 6 for a more detailed explanation of this argument as well as pictures that back it up.

 

London is at least as and arguably more interesting and varied a physical setting as any of the cities used to date and as any other. FACT.

---

 

user posted image

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XMike

Looks nice, are you going to include the updates he gradually posted throughout his topic or leave it as is?

 

Edit: Anyone know why Medallion Man left anyway? He was a quality guy.

Edited by xmikester

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topdogkiller

greaat job on bringing the old dossier back and refurbrished. colgate.gif

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UnitedDestruction

we are number 1! dunno if we should really be proud of it though

 

user posted image

 

and before i say anything, im pretty neutral as to where i want gta4 to be, so none of this is meant to piss anyone off eh. But in that thing about crime above, you have the crime rate listed as an average, per capita, and not total. like car theft, in total, US is 1,147,300 and the UK is 338,796.

Edited by UnitedDestruction

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XMike

Well remember, just because a country has a certain crime rate, doesn't mean R* cannot change that when building their cities. As far as I know, they could stick in a city known for love and peace and make it the grittiest place on Earth.

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beanmachine43

Looks great, took some time I can see. I've been wondering why Medallion left as well, some ungodly reason possibly?

 

I would rather see the game based on London, not the actual city. I see no reason to switch up their formula of basing the ideas off other various cities and not by re-creating them themselves. London is the best option, in my opinion, for GTA IV to be based purely on the fact that it is, as mentioned, "London is at least as and arguably more interesting and varied a physical setting as any of the cities used to date and as any other."

 

*Rates good*

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All-Blacks

 

we are number 1! dunno if we should really be proud of it though

 

user posted image

 

and before i say anything, im pretty neutral as to where i want gta4 to be, so none of this is meant to piss anyone off eh. But in that thing about crime above, you have the crime rate listed as an average, per capita, and not total. like car theft, in total, US is 1,147,300 and the UK is 338,796.

Yeah but the total crime from a country can be misleading and will never determine the most dangerous country to live in shall you say. Its a bit like the Olympics, just because USA wins a lot of medals (and thats mainly due to the fact that they send more athletes compared to others), doesn't mean they are the best (by per capita, Australia wins the most). So by per capita, it gives more of an accurate reading, Crime rates by country shows that USA is 8th by per capita and that the UK is 6th, so technically the UK is more of a dangerous place to live in. And for whoever thinks New Zealand is a 'Clean Green Paradise', NZ is second for total crimes per capita tounge.gif .

 

And yeah like what xmikester said, it doesn't really matter if country blah-blah hasn't got a high crime level as R* exaggerates everything to the highest level. Stand on a curb in Compton, and I bet you'll never see one serious criminal activity.

Edited by All-Blacks

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*MURDOC*

I had the last post before lock!

Proud!

 

 

 

 

(not really)

 

Good to see the London dossier is still alive and well.

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beanmachine43

 

Yeah but the total crime from a country can be misleading and will never determine the most dangerous country to live in shall you say. Its a bit like the Olympics, just because USA wins a lot of medals (and thats mainly due to the fact that they send more athletes compared to others), doesn't mean they are the best (by per capita, Australia wins the most). So by per capita, it gives more of an accurate reading, Crime rates by country shows that USA is 8th by per capita and that the UK is 6th, so technically the UK is more of a dangerous place to live in. And for whoever thinks New Zealand is a 'Clean Green Paradise', NZ is second for total crimes per capita  tounge.gif .

 

Still, even per capita isn't accurate, considering the fact the U.S. is I believe the third most populated country in the world. Also, I don't think any European country is within the top ten population-wise, so again more crimes per capita isn't very useful for comparing countries that have a vast gap between the population levels. But, London can get rough and dirty itself from what I've been told, really not too many other places fitting for a GTA setting, at least from what I can think of.

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Lioshenka

 

we are number 1! dunno if we should really be proud of it though

 

user posted image

 

and before i say anything, im pretty neutral as to where i want gta4 to be, so none of this is meant to piss anyone off eh. But in that thing about crime above, you have the crime rate listed as an average, per capita, and not total. like car theft, in total, US is 1,147,300 and the UK is 338,796.

lets not forget, that USA has the population of 300 mln, while UK has only 50. 6 time more crimes in USA is OK therefore

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Helsinki
I don't think the amount of real life "street crime" of a given city is that important. The most important thing is that it's a believable setting for organized crime.

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Ceritoglu

 

we are number 1! dunno if we should really be proud of it though

 

user posted image

 

and before i say anything, im pretty neutral as to where i want gta4 to be, so none of this is meant to piss anyone off eh. But in that thing about crime above, you have the crime rate listed as an average, per capita, and not total. like car theft, in total, US is 1,147,300 and the UK is 338,796.

 

I'm familiar with the argument that 'per capita' statistics aren’t perfectly representative, but surely the logic of using total crime for two completely different sized countries is evidently flawed? I’m sure the total American population earns more than, let’s say, the total Swiss populace; but it would be foolish to say the Swiss are impoverished (very far from it). Per Capita, and other such averages, are a much more accurate form of measuring...despite their flaws. The argument against using averages for the US, is that crime in the big cities are diluted by the low level of crime in the vast expanse that is small town America. However, I’ll repost a little something I did in the old London Dossier on crime in Los Angeles, New York City and London. I think it’s quite interesting, and although Medallion Man is somewhat dismissive of crime figures being the only grounding for GTA (which he is justified in saying), I think it’s interesting to note that even if crime rates are taken as a gauge of suitability, London does quite well compared to these bastions of American crime (something I was surprised with myself).

 

Ceritoglu on crime in Los Angeles, New York City and London. Originally posted Feb 3 2007, 16:22...all figures are based on information available at that date.

 

 

Compiling the Statistics

 

I finished my German Coursework a few days back, and had an hour to kill before I left the library. So, I decided to have a look at some crime statistics and see how London compared to some of the US' crime capitals. In particular, I chose New York and Los Angeles - mainly because these two cities have enjoyed prominent roles throughout the GTA series. I guess it may have been related that I was listening to Compton’s Most Wanted’s seminal album, Music to Driveby, on my mp3 player as I thought that London wouldn’t be on the same level.

 

Regardless, I decided to push on and see what came up. I decided the most reliable way was to use police figures of offences reported from all 3 cities. I expect this to be a point of contention between people – many will talk about pressure to keep

figures down, others about the pressure to inflate figures to secure better funding; many more about the efficiency of the relevant police forces in handling reports, tackling offences and community trust. Nevertheless, police figures are the only solid, verifiable evidence we have on the subject and provide the best picture of the respective cities’ criminal statistics.

 

The three police forces’ statistics come from:

The Los Angeles Police Department, Computer Statistics (Los Angeles)

The Metropolitan Police Service (London)

The New York Police Department, Computer Statistics (New York City)

 

The excel spreadsheet is divided between 4 worksheets; one showing each, individual city’s crime statistics and one comparing the cities’ statistics. I’m more than happy to respond to any queries regarding the statistics.

 

The Statistics

 

Analysis

 

The statistics very much left no dispute when it comes to the matter of homicides. LA had slightly under 3 times the murder rate while New York had over 3 times the murder rate London has. Although superficially this seems like a victory for the anti-London party, it’s actually more likely a reflection of Americans’ “right to bear arms, to arm bears and all points in between”. Guns in London are limited to those deep within the criminal community – whereas in America guns can be purchased with little hassle. You don’t need to be the world’s greatest thinker to link the accessibility of guns with the heightened use of guns in murder.

 

At this point it seems like the American crime capitals are proving much more violent than London.

 

Yet in every other category of criminal offences, London supremely surpasses its American counterparts. London suffers a rate of rape double that of LA’s; a rate of robbery treble that of LA and almost double that of NY; most surprising is the rate of assault. Londoners experience 9 times more assaults than inhabitants of LA, 8 times more than inhabitants of NY – a truly remarkable figure. You’re 3 times more likely to be killed in LA than in London; but you’re 9 times more likely to be assaulted in London than in LA – something I put down in particular to the rise of Chav Couture. London’s experiencing a peak in violent crime – a peak LA and NY were experiencing around the early 90s. With close to 200,000 cases of violent crime reported last year (almost 5 times that of NY and over 6 times that of LA) nobody can claim London is a ‘boring’ city.

 

Burglary in London is also remarkably more prevalent than in LA or NY; between 4 and 5 times the frequency of burglary in NY and LA. GTA is almost 3 times as common in London as it is in NY and almost double the figure in LA. Personal/other theft (which includes muggings) in London is a mammoth figure, dwarfing those of LA and NY.

 

Overall, aside from the rate of murder – London outdoes LA and NY in every other criminal activity; often preposterously so.

 

So how does this relate to a GTA:LDN?

 

Well. It certainly dispels the myth that London would be a boring city for a criminal to live in. London’s high rate of criminal activity is evident from the figures. I imagine gun accessibility issues could be resolved with ease. An Emmet-style figure could easily distribute from a back alley – and there would be a plethora of pick-up points where one could obtain weapons. Hunting shops could provide shotguns and rifles for (what else?) rural hunting purposes  moto_whistle.gif . The high level of crime would be more than reasonable in the game, especially since it existed in the seemingly soft towns of LA and NY  colgate.gif .

 

So…I hope this destroys the whole ‘but nobody commits crime in London’ argument once and for all. I also hope it provides a little something of interest.

Edited by Ceritoglu

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jrt

One thing I never understood about the Dossier, it states all these facts and how high the crime rate is, then it says that all facts are irrelevant because GTA sidesteps from reality often.

 

The thing is that if you can come up with a valid point, and someone will say, "Yeah, but GTA is never completley realistic" which is a fair point, but when these valid points keep coming up, and for each and everyone, Rockstar decides to 'swerve from reality' you wont end up with a slightly unrealistic London, you will end up with a completley different London altogether.

 

Ok, hypothetical situation: Rockstar decides to choose the city with the highest Crime rate, as you showed, it's basically London. But the crimerate shifts with the times, and if those stats are from 2005/6 then we are assuming that the next GTA will be set in the present day, but the 00s are as likely as the 90s, 80s, 70s or even the 60s. Hypothetical situation over.

 

What about the size of London compared to the others? Well, in SA, Los Santos, San Fierro and Las Venturas (Imitations of cities I surely should not have to post) were all about the same size, but in reality:

 

Los Angeles: 498 square miles

 

San Fransico: 47 square miles (Yes, 47 square miles)

 

Las Vegas: 113 square miles

 

Greater London: 609 square miles

 

Remember that these are the cities, and not the countryside surrounding the cities. As you can see, London is the largest, but a few things to consider. Firstly, Greater London includes all the suburbs around London, you would see the suburbs in a London GTA, but not all of them.

 

Secondly, as you can see there are extreme variations of size, and the combined size of the 3 US cities, exceeds London, but London is just one city, the biggest in the UK and England, which means other cities such as Blackpool or Manchester would have to be greatly expanded in order to match up with London, and although they are varied, they aren't as much as London is, which means a great deal of them would have to be made up.

 

As far as gangs go, London has apparently 400 gangs, varying in size and operations, but there is no way that the next GTA is going to have 400 gangs, I doubt it will even have 40 gangs, so as far as gangs are concerned, London is no more appropriate than anywhere else.

 

Then there is the gun issue, I'm glad we have established that guns are illegal, and we can safely that criminals use guns, fair enough. Although, the police do not, not unless there are major events happening, and the security must be alot tighter than usual. However, special forces do, which is all well and good, but UK special forces are pretty much on the same level as SWAT. Which would mean that you would have to get four stars before firearms are used against you.

 

Also, the FBI do not work in the same way as MI5 do, even though they are our nearest equivilent. Another swerve of reality. There are swerves, but when you take so many, you may as well be playing something totally different. The lack of over the counter fire-arms is also a problem in the UK as it well...doesnt exist. One of the great icons of GTA is Ammu-nation, it would be terrible to remove it.

 

Okay so the 'beat bobbies' are not armed, but in GTA they are, you pull a gun on a cop on the street, they'll start to shoot you, what use is a policeman if he just runs away like any other pedestrian? Two choices, either make him run away (Which would be sh*t) or give them guns and swerve reality...again. Oh and as for the armed police with SMGs, there are nowhere near as many as you make out to be, and if you were to swerve reality again and make them more common, you would have to change their firearms. Oh look, were swerving reality, YET AGAIN.

 

One of the fatal flaws is water, aside from the Thames (and a few small lakes) there is nowhere to swim or use a boat, given that a boat chase in the Thames would be cool, it does come to a full stop at some point, unless you made it a continuous flow through the city, once again, twisting reality.

 

What about planes? Well, as you pointed out, there are many skyscrapers in a (possibly) modern London, without the addition of countryside and other cities to travel to, planes will only be used to get to one airport to another, and the journey to each one would just include flying high over the city itself, great fun...

 

Yes, London could be an appropriate place for the next GTA, but for it to do so, we would have to jump and ignore reality so much (moreso than the past games) that it wouldn't be London, but just some fantasy english city, made for GTA.

 

But let me ask you, why is London better than anywhere else? Why not Detroit? Why not Chicago? Why not both? f*ck, why not the whole Midwest or South or even Mexico?! What makes London better than anywhere else? As you said in your 'Cheese' arguement, just because you do not like something, it does not mean that it can't be set there.

 

 

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theflatulentpanda
One of the fatal flaws is water, aside from the Thames (and a few small lakes) there is nowhere to swim or use a boat, given that a boat chase in the Thames would be cool, it does come to a full stop at some point, unless you made it a continuous flow through the city, once again, twisting reality.

 

1. the thames IS a continuous flow through the city, it enters in south west london and leaves through east london. i assume this isnt what you meant- can you clarify

 

2. london has more than just one river- there are several rivers that flow into the thames as well as canals (one of which conects the city to birmingham)

there is also a huge network of docks in east london. now you say that there is nowhere to swim or use a boat, well in vice city there was one river down the middle with a couple or channels around the central islands, now i think london can improve on that. in san andreas, LS had a single, straight cannal, none of the other cities had waterways so why is london so bad?

 

 

in general you seem to be saying that med-mans facts on london prove the city has the MOST gangs or the BIGGEST crime stats or whatever. i think what he was getting at was that london has VARIETY. sure detroit or chicago have high crime stats too, but the crime is mostly black/white/hispanic street gangs, corupt officials, and maffia.

 

what med-man was getting at is that in london theres are all sorts of other gangs and criminals that would bring something new to gta. i heard on the news today that because of londons international status and imigrant comunity (there are substantial comunities from every area of the world) it is the most popular destination for foreign criminals fleeing the law.

 

 

 

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Gooners-jay-and-scott

I think GTA should be in London because Rockstar are from the UK!!!!!!

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tiberius_viper

oh great another post about just how comvinced a guy is that GTA IV will be in London and he just had to show to the rest of the world all his "arguments" .

Here's a realistic and solid argument : GTA IV will not be in London because R* main market is in the USA , the are just too litle GTA players in UK in comparison to the US , and the majority of the US players who bring them profit just dont like London with the old buildings and mixed architecture , driving and on the other side of the road , youre annoing accent and lame jokes, sports , mostly ugly women and the list could go on and on ....think about it

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TonyResta

Why you telling him to post a decent argument when yours is so pathetic, the reason there are more sales in the US is becuase its bigger notify.gifnotify.gifnotify.gif

 

Thats the only answer im going to give becuase thats the only one you deserve, the rest of the statements youve given are lame (like you) and i cant be arsed to answer them.

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Seddo

 

Here's a realistic and solid argument  : GTA IV will not be in London because R* main market is in the USA , the are just too litle GTA players in UK in comparison to the US

Where has Rockstar ever mentioned that there main market is America, there is more than one country in the world.

 

and the majority of the US players who bring them profit just dont like London with the old buildings and mixed architecture , driving and on the other side of the road

I might be blind but can you give me a link as to where any Americans have mentioned anything about not liking the buildings and architecture. Plus when do you drive on the right side of the road all the time in GTA 3, VC and SA, I'm always swerving around cars driving on the wrong side.

 

youre annoing accent and lame jokes, sports , mostly ugly women

WTF has that got to do with Grand Theft Auto, jokes, sports and ugly woman. notify.gif and annoying accent? we can say the same about America's accent doesnt mean we dont like palying the GTA series which was set in America.

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Helsinki
oh great another post about just how comvinced a guy is that GTA IV will be in London and he just had to show to the rest of the world all his "arguments" .

Here's a realistic and solid argument : GTA IV will not be in London because R* main market is in the USA , the are just too litle GTA players in UK in comparison to the US , and the majority of the US players who bring them profit just dont like London with the old buildings and mixed architecture , driving and on the other side of the road , youre annoing accent and lame jokes, sports , mostly ugly women and the list could go on and on ....think about it

I'd actually prefer GTA IV to be in the US (or maybe Hong Kong), rather than in the UK, but there is one very good reason to set the game in the UK: it'd make whiners like tiberius_viper cry a lot. wink.gif

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tiberius_viper

looks like somebody cant stand another opinion tounge.gif , go ahead and reply with youre arguments it amuses me smile.gif)

ps: Helsinki you said "it'd make whiners like tiberius_viper cry a lot. " , its kind of hard to be offended by someone who is showing his ass with cheap boxers to everyone else

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Greene

 

looks like somebody cant stand another opinion tounge.gif , go ahead and reply with youre arguments it amuses me smile.gif)

 

You're complaining that he can't stand an opinion yet you say:

 

oh great another post about just how comvinced a guy is that GTA IV will be in London and he just had to show to the rest of the world all his "arguments" .

Those "arguments" are peoples opinions and if you can't stand them, then get the f*ck off the forum.

You're a hypocrite.

 

I myself don't particularily care where GTA4 is set. I'm sure that Rockstar will pick the most suitable setting for the game.

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jrt
looks like somebody cant stand another opinion tounge.gif , go ahead and reply with youre arguments it amuses me smile.gif)

ps: Helsinki you said "it'd make whiners like tiberius_viper cry a lot. " , its kind of hard to be offended by someone who is showing his ass with cheap boxers to everyone else

Hmm, I don't think it is his arse.

 

I have no idea of the facts, but I would say (Basing my opinion on logic) that the US probably is the biggest market. I don't know how much of an effect on the location in would have.

 

And Flatulent Panda: Chicago is VERY VERY varied, I've been to both and I would say much more than London is, that doesn't mean London isn't lacking in variety though.

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ExtermelySmartMan

 

ps: Helsinki you said "it'd make whiners like tiberius_viper cry a lot. " , its kind of hard  to be offended by someone who is showing his ass with cheap boxers to everyone else

 

What the hell? Didn't I get something that was meant to be funny or are you stupid?

Edited by ExtermelySmartMan

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Ceritoglu

 

One thing I never understood about the Dossier, it states all these facts and how high the crime rate is, then it says that all facts are irrelevant because GTA sidesteps from reality often.

 

The statistics prove London has a high crime rate. A high crime rate, however, is not really a reason to elect a city for GTA. Your question is, why prove London has a high crime rate? To show people who say ‘London can’t be in GTA because it has a low crime rate’, that both the nature of their argument is wrong (a crime rate is no basis) and that their actual argument is wrong (London has a high crime rate). This isn’t so much a point saying London should be in a GTA because it has a high level of crime, but a point countering those who say London shouldn’t be in GTA because it has a low level of crime.

 

 

The thing is that if you can come up with a valid point, and someone will say, "Yeah, but GTA is never completley realistic" which is a fair point, but when these valid points keep coming up, and for each and everyone, Rockstar decides to 'swerve from reality' you wont end up with a slightly unrealistic London, you will end up with a completley different London altogether.

 

I fail to see what exactly your point is here. You’re saying by having a few small inaccuracies, the game will not be a realistic depiction of London. However, that is by no means the intention of the game. A lot of people are confused about this point – they think GTA is a reflection of reality. It isn’t. GTA is a parody of reality. A GTA set in a London Based City will not be a reflection of London, it’ll be a parody of it. The inaccuracies are unimportant, because R* isn’t trying to replicate London. Your point is fundamentally flawed, because you see realism as the underlying intent of the game designers; if GTA was seeking realism, you’d get about 3 stars after crushing two pedestrians. Does it matter if there aren’t any of ‘those metal barriers’ in a GTA based on London? I don’t think anybody will complain about the lack of realism…because realism isn’t a principle inherent in the game design.

 

 

Ok, hypothetical situation: Rockstar decides to choose the city with the highest Crime rate, as you showed, it's basically London. But the crimerate shifts with the times, and if those stats are from 2005/6 then we are assuming that the next GTA will be set in the present day, but the 00s are as likely as the 90s, 80s, 70s or even the 60s. Hypothetical situation over.

 

Again, I don’t see your point. Are you arguing that London has only come across crime in the last few years? That is flawed…organised crime has been prevalent in London in ‘even the 60s’. The Kray Twins, the Richardsons…the 60s saw many firms grow in London. The 70s saw them reign supremely over the city, while the 80s saw the cocaine boom and the germination of foreign gangs. The 90s saw a boom for foreign gangs following the fall of the communist bloc, and the growth of the Triads and the Turks – while the old firms suffered from erosion of power. In the 2000s, crime is still thriving in London – as it has done for centuries. London has always experienced an abundance of crime…none of the time periods you’ve mentioned could cause London to be a quiet little town.

 

What about the size of London compared to the others? Well, in SA, Los Santos, San Fierro and Las Venturas (Imitations of cities I surely should not have to post) were all about the same size, but in reality:

 

Los Angeles: 498 square miles

 

San Fransico: 47 square miles (Yes, 47 square miles)

 

Las Vegas: 113 square miles

 

Greater London: 609 square miles

 

Remember that these are the cities, and not the countryside surrounding the cities. As you can see, London is the largest, but a few things to consider. Firstly, Greater London includes all the suburbs around London, you would see the suburbs in a London GTA, but not all of them.

 

Secondly, as you can see there are extreme variations of size, and the combined size of the 3 US cities, exceeds London, but London is just one city, the biggest in the UK and England, which means other cities such as Blackpool or Manchester would have to be greatly expanded in order to match up with London, and although they are varied, they aren't as much as London is, which means a great deal of them would have to be made up.

 

I’m afraid you seem to have got the wrong end of the stick on this one. This is an argument proving that London isn’t a small town, and that it’s just as big as other cities included in other GTA games. This point was created after people said London is too small to be in GTA…the argument proves it’s more than big enough. Your point about Greater London’s suburbs is valid, but are you somehow implying those statistics don’t include the respective cities’ suburbs? If so, you’ll find the City of Los Angeles contains many suburban areas…as I’m sure the others do.

 

I’m having trouble comprehending your second point. Are you saying that LA has two cities to go with it and that London doesn’t? If so, hasn’t it struck you that London doesn’t need two cities to go with it? A GTA based on London may very well have London as the sole location, or may choose a European city as another location (Amsterdam or Paris are possibilities).

 

 

As far as gangs go, London has apparently 400 gangs, varying in size and operations, but there is no way that the next GTA is going to have 400 gangs, I doubt it will even have 40 gangs, so as far as gangs are concerned, London is no more appropriate than anywhere else.

 

This is again, a counter to people who say London has no gangs. The point is, London has a diverse criminal underworld – making it a viable location. If you look in the Gangs of London section, you’ll see that London surpasses many other cities in its criminal diversity – there aren’t many other cities where one could include so many ethnicities, and so many different gangs. This, once again, proves London’s viability.

 

 

Then there is the gun issue, I'm glad we have established that guns are illegal, and we can safely that criminals use guns, fair enough. Although, the police do not, not unless there are major events happening, and the security must be alot tighter than usual. However, special forces do, which is all well and good, but UK special forces are pretty much on the same level as SWAT. Which would mean that you would have to get four stars before firearms are used against you.

 

If you’re armed, the police in this country won’t confront you unarmed. It’s that simple…don’t pull out a weapon, the police attack you with truncheons; pull out a weapon and you’ll be shot at. If you beat up someone in the street, the police won’t shoot you – but if you start using a gun…then you’ll be sure to be fired at. I can’t see anything wrong with this, both in terms of gameplay and in terms of fitting in with London’s gun policy.

 

 

Also, the FBI do not work in the same way as MI5 do, even though they are our nearest equivilent. Another swerve of reality. There are swerves, but when you take so many, you may as well be playing something totally different. The lack of over the counter fire-arms is also a problem in the UK as it well...doesnt exist. One of the great icons of GTA is Ammu-nation, it would be terrible to remove it.

 

I’m sorry, but how does MI5 differ from the FBI? Please elaborate, because there doesn’t seem to be a ‘swerve of reality’ at all in this case.

 

You then go on to talk about the lack of over the counter fire-arms. This is, undoubtedly, ignorance. I know of one gun store myself, but there are several across London. Guns are not illegal in this country, merely licensed. There are two types of license one can obtain: a firearms license and a shotgun license. A shotgun license allows you to buy shotguns (which don't need to be registered) while a firearms license requires you to register each of your weapons. Thus, the weapons you can buy in this country are: handguns, rifles and shotguns, albeit with a bit of paperwork. In America, the only guns you're legally allowed to buy are: hanguns, rifles and shotguns colgate.gif . Of course, there's no paperwork in the US, but we're already familiar with Ammu-Nation selling illegal firearms - AK47s and M4s come to mind. Thus, a British Ammu-Nation would sell legal firearms, and offer illegal firearms as well (from whence you'd be getting most of your armory) in the same mould as the US version.

 

 

Okay so the 'beat bobbies' are not armed, but in GTA they are, you pull a gun on a cop on the street, they'll start to shoot you, what use is a policeman if he just runs away like any other pedestrian? Two choices, either make him run away (Which would be sh*t) or give them guns and swerve reality...again. Oh and as for the armed police with SMGs, there are nowhere near as many as you make out to be, and if you were to swerve reality again and make them more common, you would have to change their firearms. Oh look, were swerving reality, YET AGAIN.

 

Your obsession with sticking to reality is quite amusing...how many times have you been busted in GTA in posession of a gun which can be traced to a violent act? Every time that's happened, you should be getting 20 years in jail. But the fact that this doesn't happen, isn't because the game designers are failing to replicate reality, it's because they don't want to replicate reality. As I've said already, if you walk around the streets of London toting a gun, you'll come across armed policemen very quickly indeed. Thus, in a GTA based on London, you'd attract unarmed cops if you've done unarmed crimes (1 star)...but if you start shooting, you're stars'll jump up and you'll be faced with armed policemen.

 

 

One of the fatal flaws is water, aside from the Thames (and a few small lakes) there is nowhere to swim or use a boat, given that a boat chase in the Thames would be cool, it does come to a full stop at some point, unless you made it a continuous flow through the city, once again, twisting reality.

 

The Thames runs right through the city (as I think somebody has already pointed out) and comes to a stop deep within the countryside. Furthermore, if London were to be coupled (as I think it should be) with a European city, you'd get the channel.

 

 

What about planes? Well, as you pointed out, there are many skyscrapers in a (possibly) modern London, without the addition of countryside and other cities to travel to, planes will only be used to get to one airport to another, and the journey to each one would just include flying high over the city itself, great fun...

 

As I've said, London could very well be coupled with other cities making this point irrelevant. Even so, are you implying that GTA:III and GTA:Vice City were bad games because you couldn't fly planes? Planes were a nice addition in SA, but by no means are they an invaluable gameplay feature.

 

 

Yes, London could be an appropriate place for the next GTA, but for it to do so, we would have to jump and ignore reality so much (moreso than the past games) that it wouldn't be London, but just some fantasy english city, made for GTA.

 

This is unintentionally funny, I must say. Your fixation with reality is quite amusing - do you think Liberty City, Vice City, Los Santos, Las Venturas and San Fierro weren't fantasy cities based loosely on reality for parody purposes? Do you think having a few more armed policemen and less of 'those metal barriers' will cause this city to be anonymous and without links to the real London?

 

 

But let me ask you, why is London better than anywhere else? Why not Detroit? Why not Chicago? Why not both? f*ck, why not the whole Midwest or South or even Mexico?! What makes London better than anywhere else? As you said in your 'Cheese' arguement, just because you do not like something, it does not mean that it can't be set there.

 

Why not Detroit or Chicago? Can you imagine them being too different to another GTA based in Liberty City? Inner-city Washington, Philadelphia, New York, Detroit, Chicago are all incredibly similar. Chicago and Detroit would just be variations on a theme already covered - and no GTA fan wants to see the series get monotonous and uncreative. Why not the whole Midwest? Because the Midwest is 'full of retards', as R* have mentioned in a game - and is a really unimpressive, undistinctive area. The Midwest is monotony embodied...just travel through the Prairies and you'll know exactly what I mean. Miami, New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Las Vegas - these are all globally renowned cities with character; do the developers want an anonymous city for the new series? I'd much prefer a GTA in Mexico and the South to one in Detroit, Chicago or the Midwest - it'd be a new culture to parody and enjoy.

 

What makes London better than anywhere else? Now that's a very interesting question, and if you read the whole dossier, rather than the introductory few pages posted here, you'll see why. To summarise:

 

Crime

 

London has a vibrant criminal scene. From the old firms, losing influence increasingly, to the foreign gangs vying for supremacy; Triads, Russians, Albanians, Turks, Yakuza, Yarides, Estate street gangs, Colombians and Italian Mafia. This vibrant scene surpasses, or at least equals, all of London's rivals. The British criminal is a well-known image globally thanks to films like the Italian Job, Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels, Snatch - as well as famous criminals like the Kray Twins and the Richardsons. In addition to some of the wealthiest and most notable criminals in the world, London is the host of some of the scummiest street-thugs; chavs, rude boys and estate gangs are examples.

 

Architecture

 

London has a very interesting architectural outlook, something that's visually very important. The juxtaposition of modernist architecture with the city's 17th century old architecture is striking - one can see Neo-Classical, Roccoco, Baroque, Gothic, Modernist, Post-Modernist architecture all over the city; easily surpassing any rivals in terms of visual quality. A strong skyline, expanding constantly is also helpful.

 

Culture

 

The English are one of the most enduring identities in the world, and the cultural make-up of modern London is particularly useful in its bid. The thriving immigrant communities (intertwined with their ethnic criminal links) show the nature of London as a truly metropolitan, global city. In addition to this, there are plenty of British stereotypes for R* to draw on, many of which are perversely used as anti-London arguments (funny accents, ironic sense of humour, sexual deviancy underneath a display of decorum, etc.) - useful for the pardoying which has become one of R*'s trademarks.

 

Geography

 

London's location, as a point of contact between Europe and America, makes it highly likely that a GTA including London may involve a US city on the East Coast, a European City near the Channel - or both (as is my dream GTA game sigh.gif , involving Liberty, London and Amsterdam). This makes London a strong candidate for a multi-city game, furthering its chances of inclusion. Furthermore the existence of a river dividing the city in two, may help if a two-city game is made – whereby in the traditional GTA format, there are three stages of the game. Part one: North London, Part two: South London, Part three: Paris – for example.

 

 

go ahead and reply with youre arguments it amuses me

 

I'll give it a go smile.gif .

 

 

Here's a realistic and solid argument : GTA IV will not be in London because R* main market is in the USA , the are just too litle GTA players in UK in comparison to the US , and the majority of the US players who bring them profit just dont like London with the old buildings and mixed architecture , driving and on the other side of the road , youre annoing accent and lame jokes, sports , mostly ugly women and the list could go on and on ....think about it

 

Based on what do you say that 'the majority of US players...just dont like London?' Do you have a shred of verifiable proof for it? I could say the majority of Haitians don't like Sushi - but until I come with some statistics I'll be talking crap. Make sure nobody can accuse you of the same by providing something to verify your claims.

 

 

its kind of hard to be offended by someone who is showing his ass with cheap boxers to everyone else

 

You've left yourself exposed to far too many incinuations if you automatically think a great arse like (Keyra Augustina's, I believe) that belongs to a man...I think you've become the amusing one now biggrin.gif

Edited by Ceritoglu

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116soldier

personally i think it should simply be held in the UK like how San Andreas had the little islands you could do the same map layout for GTA IV (i highly doubt it will be remotely alike though) but you could use Ireland Scotland and England for the three islands and just a few main places filling them up besides it'd be a cool take to base this game of the likes of Irish activity like in the boondocks or the departed although that was simply Boston but boston is irelands home away from home basically hah. thats just my take granted they do have the getaway so this is a poinless idea but whats LEFT for like story plots the Mafia, Mob, Gangs, Yakuza and everything has already been used in the sudden up-roar of open world games don't get me wrong saints row was amazing (it did have its fair share of flaws especially the lack of motorcycles which is my prefered method of transportaion) but Rockstar sees the succes Volition got with the row and they can build off that i mean they had the time to def. so san andreas was a stepping stone, saints row took the next step after that (i personally think liberty city stories was a failure considering i beat it in like fou days and it was a down grade from the quality and features of san andreas) but GTA IV can deffinately top saints row if they keep the good features from san andreas and take some ideas from the row like all the customization. but yeah in my opinion (i know i got side tracked) GTA IV doesnt really need a set location because everythings been used (besides austrailia and africa...that i know of) so as long as the can raise the bar with features qualities and customization i think it will come out famously.

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*MURDOC*

 

oh great another post about just how comvinced a guy is that GTA IV will be in London and he just had to show to the rest of the world all his "arguments" .

Here's a realistic and solid argument : GTA IV will not be in London because R* main market is in the USA , the are just too litle GTA players in UK in comparison to the US , and the majority of the US players who bring them profit just dont like London with the old buildings and mixed architecture , driving and on the other side of the road , youre annoing accent and lame jokes, sports , mostly ugly women and the list could go on and on ....think about it

 

I know im being unoriginal here, and probably headin down a bad street but im going to go with the quick and easy version and just go ahead and say:

 

f*ck YOU, you stupid hypocritical peice-of-sh*t, f*ck.

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Darvinho
oh great another post about just how comvinced a guy is that GTA IV will be in London and he just had to show to the rest of the world all his "arguments" .

Here's a realistic and solid argument : GTA IV will not be in London because R* main market is in the USA , the are just too litle GTA players in UK in comparison to the US , and the majority of the US players who bring them profit just dont like London with the old buildings and mixed architecture , driving and on the other side of the road , youre annoing accent and lame jokes, sports , mostly ugly women and the list could go on and on ....think about it

 

I know im being unoriginal here, and probably headin down a bad street but im going to go with the quick and easy version and just go ahead and say:

 

f*ck YOU, you stupid hypocritical peice-of-sh*t, f*ck.

I agree but in general and not directed soley at you Murdoc would people please stop filling this thread with a pretty pointless and tedious argument. The guy said a moronic comment, lets just leave it now.

 

On topic: I think the point about all the facts in the dossier and then having it say that its largely irrelevant because GTA sidesteps reality is because its trying to portray that London has a great deal of factors that make it an ideal source of inspiration for a GTA setting. R* can then tinker and alter all they like but all the while drawing on the London theme. But meh dontgetit.gif I could be wrong...

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Brian Forbes

 

Here's a realistic and solid argument : GTA IV will not be in London because R* main market is in the USA , the are just too litle GTA players in UK in comparison to the US , and the majority of the US players who bring them profit just dont like London with the old buildings and mixed architecture , driving and on the other side of the road , youre annoing accent and lame jokes, sports , mostly ugly women and the list could go on and on ....think about it

 

Its basically general knowledge now that the make up of gta fans is:

 

USA and Canada - 50%

UK - 25%

Rest of the world 25%

 

Edit: Stop making Americans look so god damned ignorant! Europe alone is a much bigger market than the United States by over 150 million people which in fact is over half the population of the United States. Your 'argument' if you can call it that is not valid and it's really quite offensive to Americans who get labelled r*tards and European's and thoses from other parts I imagine because you're basically calling other fans insignificant.

Edited by Brian Forbes

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jrt

 

The statistics prove London has a high crime rate. A high crime rate, however, is not really a reason to elect a city for GTA. Your question is, why prove London has a high crime rate? To show people who say ‘London can’t be in GTA because it has a low crime rate’, that both the nature of their argument is wrong (a crime rate is no basis) and that their actual argument is wrong (London has a high crime rate). This isn’t so much a point saying London should be in a GTA because it has a high level of crime, but a point countering those who say London shouldn’t be in GTA because it has a low level of crime.

 

The crime rate wasn't an important part of what I was trying to say, it could have been any topic really. The fact is, the post is supposed to be convincing me that London is a good GTA setting, but it really doesnt seem to work as most of the main post itself is just someone saying that stats are irrelevant, then showing the stats anyway. Instead of telling us why it's a good location.

 

 

 

 

I fail to see what exactly your point is here. You’re saying by having a few small inaccuracies, the game will not be a realistic depiction of London. However, that is by no means the intention of the game. A lot of people are confused about this point – they think GTA is a reflection of reality. It isn’t. GTA is a parody of reality. A GTA set in a London Based City will not be a reflection of London, it’ll be a parody of it. The inaccuracies are unimportant, because R* isn’t trying to replicate London. Your point is fundamentally flawed, because you see realism as the underlying intent of the game designers; if GTA was seeking realism, you’d get about 3 stars after crushing two pedestrians. Does it matter if there aren’t any of ‘those metal barriers’ in a GTA based on London? I don’t think anybody will complain about the lack of realism…because realism isn’t a principle inherent in the game design.

 

More than 'a few' inaccuracies. See, the justice system in GTA may be off reality (As to which alot of people beleive should be more in accurate, I however, dont) but you can still buy guns off the shelves in the US, you can still own a gun, you can still walk around with one. In England, you cannot. Its like taking something nicely unrealistic, then just making it pure stupid because its become too unrealistic.

 

 

 

 

Again, I don’t see your point. Are you arguing that London has only come across crime in the last few years? That is flawed…organised crime has been prevalent in London in ‘even the 60s’. The Kray Twins, the Richardsons…the 60s saw many firms grow in London. The 70s saw them reign supremely over the city, while the 80s saw the cocaine boom and the germination of foreign gangs. The 90s saw a boom for foreign gangs following the fall of the communist bloc, and the growth of the Triads and the Turks – while the old firms suffered from erosion of power. In the 2000s, crime is still thriving in London – as it has done for centuries. London has always experienced an abundance of crime…none of the time periods you’ve mentioned could cause London to be a quiet little town.

 

Very much a wasted post, as you failed to see the point. Alot of the 'facts' and alot of the reasoning as to why GTA would be good in London (A topic which seems almost non existant in the 'Dossier) seem to be based upon general assumption that if GTA was to be set in London it would be set in the present day. When in fact, nobody even knows if it will be set in London.

 

 

 

 

 

I’m afraid you seem to have got the wrong end of the stick on this one. This is an argument proving that London isn’t a small town, and that it’s just as big as other cities included in other GTA games. This point was created after people said London is too small to be in GTA…the argument proves it’s more than big enough. Your point about Greater London’s suburbs is valid, but are you somehow implying those statistics don’t include the respective cities’ suburbs? If so, you’ll find the City of Los Angeles contains many suburban areas…as I’m sure the others do.

 

I’m having trouble comprehending your second point. Are you saying that LA has two cities to go with it and that London doesn’t? If so, hasn’t it struck you that London doesn’t need two cities to go with it? A GTA based on London may very well have London as the sole location, or may choose a European city as another location (Amsterdam or Paris are possibilities).

 

I think we all know that Los Angeles has its suburbs, but Rockstar didn't include as much of it as there really is, a large portion of the square miles that make up greater London come from the surrounding suburbs, and following typical GTA law, I'm sure we wont see as much of the suburbs as really exists, probably not even half of the amount.

 

 

 

This is again, a counter to people who say London has no gangs. The point is, London has a diverse criminal underworld – making it a viable location. If you look in the Gangs of London section, you’ll see that London surpasses many other cities in its criminal diversity – there aren’t many other cities where one could include so many ethnicities, and so many different gangs. This, once again, proves London’s viability.

 

 

 

 

If you’re armed, the police in this country won’t confront you unarmed. It’s that simple…don’t pull out a weapon, the police attack you with truncheons; pull out a weapon and you’ll be shot at. If you beat up someone in the street, the police won’t shoot you – but if you start using a gun…then you’ll be sure to be fired at. I can’t see anything wrong with this, both in terms of gameplay and in terms of fitting in with London’s gun policy.

 

I have lived in London for a long time, and very rarely do I see a policeman with a gun, in fact, I rarely even see police on the beat. They are almost always in their cars. Mabye you've been watching too much of The Bill.

 

 

 

 

I’m sorry, but how does MI5 differ from the FBI? Please elaborate, because there doesn’t seem to be a ‘swerve of reality’ at all in this case.

 

I suggest you look at the facts before you even try to argue that point

 

 

You then go on to talk about the lack of over the counter fire-arms. This is, undoubtedly, ignorance. I know of one gun store myself, but there are several across London. Guns are not illegal in this country, merely licensed. There are two types of license one can obtain: a firearms license and a shotgun license. A shotgun license allows you to buy shotguns (which don't need to be registered) while a firearms license requires you to register each of your weapons. Thus, the weapons you can buy in this country are: handguns, rifles and shotguns, albeit with a bit of paperwork. In America, the only guns you're legally allowed to buy are: hanguns, rifles and shotguns  colgate.gif . Of course, there's no paperwork in the US, but we're already familiar with Ammu-Nation selling illegal firearms - AK47s and M4s come to mind. Thus, a British Ammu-Nation would sell legal firearms, and offer illegal firearms as well (from whence you'd be getting most of your armory) in the same mould as the US version.

 

Yes but from common knowledge and stereotypes (I.E not facts) we all know that guns in the US are alot easier to get hold of than over here. Now you can run around in London is you wish, but I would say thats pretty f*cking boring.

 

 

 

 

Your obsession with sticking to reality is quite amusing...how many times have you been busted in GTA in posession of a gun which can be traced to a violent act? Every time that's happened, you should be getting 20 years in jail. But the fact that this doesn't happen, isn't because the game designers are failing to replicate reality, it's because they don't want to replicate reality. As I've said already, if you walk around the streets of London toting a gun, you'll come across armed policemen very quickly indeed. Thus, in a GTA based on London, you'd attract unarmed cops if you've done unarmed crimes (1 star)...but if you start shooting, you're stars'll jump up and you'll be faced with armed policemen.

 

Read the above, reguarding the great lengths of jumping reality.

 

 

 

 

 

The Thames runs right through the city (as I think somebody has already pointed out) and comes to a stop deep within the countryside. Furthermore, if London were to be coupled (as I think it should be) with a European city, you'd get the channel.

 

I meant, that the Thames doesn't run through the whole of England, but saying that, no river in San Andreas did either. My bad on that one. However, the channel is irrelevant. This post is about London, not the rest of Europe.

 

 

 

 

As I've said, London could very well be coupled with other cities making this point irrelevant. Even so, are you implying that GTA:III and GTA:Vice City were bad games because you couldn't fly planes? Planes were a nice addition in SA, but by no means are they an invaluable gameplay feature.

 

Speak for yourself, I'm sure many people would be outraged if planes were excluded from a supposedly suprior GTA, you try navigating through the great state of San Andreas without any planes. Aside from being long (and possibly tedious) it would also be boring to be kept to the road.

 

 

 

 

This is unintentionally funny, I must say. Your fixation with reality is quite amusing - do you think Liberty City, Vice City, Los Santos, Las Venturas and San Fierro weren't fantasy cities based loosely on reality for parody purposes? Do you think having a few more armed policemen and less of 'those metal barriers' will cause this city to be anonymous and without links to the real London?

 

We all know GTA is far from reality, and I like it how it is, but if it were to be set in London, it would jump from reality way more than usual, so much so that it wouldn't be fun anymore.

 

 

 

 

Why not Detroit or Chicago? Can you imagine them being too different to another GTA based in Liberty City? Inner-city Washington, Philadelphia, New York, Detroit, Chicago are all incredibly similar. Chicago and Detroit would just be variations on a theme already covered - and no GTA fan wants to see the series get monotonous and uncreative. Why not the whole Midwest? Because the Midwest is 'full of retards', as R* have mentioned in a game - and is a really unimpressive, undistinctive area. The Midwest is monotony embodied...just travel through the Prairies and you'll know exactly what I mean. Miami, New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Las Vegas - these are all globally renowned cities with character; do the developers want an anonymous city for the new series? I'd much prefer a GTA in Mexico and the South to one in Detroit, Chicago or the Midwest - it'd be a new culture to parody and enjoy.

 

Well its obvious you've never been to Detroit before, and DEFINATLEY not Chicago, or mabye you are just blind. Chicago is incredibly diverse, way more than the likes of London. And Detroit is the auto capital of the US, mabye even the world. Remember that the game is GTA (Grand theft auto) and not a generic Crim-sim

 

 

My mistake, I didn't take it out of quote tags.

Edited by jrt

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Helsinki

 

...

notify.gif You quoted the whole post - and what a long post it was... - only to say "..."! Why? Did it leave you speechless?

 

EDIT: Never mind. Apparently it was in quotes accidently...

Edited by Helsinki

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