Grumpy Old Forumers

[IveGotNoValues]

I don't get it. Probably some bullsh*t because the school's budget was determined at the beginning of the year and I don't believe that senior ditch day has any effect on the budget decisions.

Yeah it's probably just a scare tactic they're trying to tell the parents so they make sure their kids go to school tomorrow. It's hard to actually believe anything that's said these days.

[gtamann123]

Yep probably just some sh*tty scare tactic.

[lil weasel]

 

I don't get it. Probably some bullsh*t because the school's budget was determined at the beginning of the year and I don't believe that senior ditch day has any effect on the budget decisions.

Yeah it's probably just a scare tactic they're trying to tell the parents so they make sure their kids go to school tomorrow. It's hard to actually believe anything that's said these days.

 

In the local school system the budget is based on Attendance. A specific amount was allocated for Each Day that individual students actually showed up.

 

 

 

Yep probably just some sh*tty scare tactic.

[TheMcSame]

Urrg... I've fallen behind on Youtube videos and now I have a backlog of stuff I want to watch. Saturday best be a slow day so I can actually catch up -.-.

[make total destroy]

I work so much that when I do get free time I have no idea what to do with myself. Like holy sh*t.

Prole life

[gtamann123]

I would rather be working and have a home and luxuries like internet and video games and food on my plate than be unemployed with all the free time in the world but be starving on the streets

Edited October 3, 2014 by gtamann123

[make total destroy]

c. none of the above

[Mr. House]

I would rather be working and have a home and luxuries like internet and video games and food on my plate than be unemployed with all the free time in the world but be starving on the streets

Don't knock it until you've tried it bruh.

[gtamann123]

c. none of the above

Not a realistic option. Unless you are born rich or have a disability.

Edited October 3, 2014 by gtamann123

[make total destroy]

come on baby

let's do the revolution

[gtamann123]

Start a revolution. Cause massive amounts of death and damage to infrastructure. In order to try out an unproven and untested economic theory that is more likely to fail than succeed and leave us worse off than we were before? Hmm I will thank about it BAE

[Mr. House]

Sounds better than the slow soul death we're going through now tho

[make total destroy]

Start a revolution. Cause massive amounts of death and damage to infrastructure. In order to try out an unproven and untested economic theory that is more likely to fail than succeed and leave us worse off than we were before? Hmm I will thank about it BAE

say what

[gtamann123]

Two whole examples of extremely short lived communities that existed 80 and 100 years ago. Ok

 

Capitalism isn't that bad really. I mean I'm in the lower class but still manage to have luxuries that even my parents would have thought unimaginable when they were my age (Internet, Video Games, HD Television etc.). Plus having a 3 bedroom house with a private pool sounds better than living in a boring gray walled studio apartment and driving a brand new muscle car around will be a lot more enjoyable than using "the people's transport" and riding the bus or subway everywhere. And if I have to work 50 hours a week to have it then so be it because I would probably end up working atleast the same amount of hours in a Communist society with no guarantee my standard of living would improve. And in all odds would probably go down significantly

Edited October 3, 2014 by gtamann123

[make total destroy]

Two whole examples of extremely short lived communities that existed 80 and 100 years ago. Ok

Considering both existed amidst civil wars, I'd say it's impressive they lasted at all. The USSR had to ruin all the fun.

 

f*ckin' tankies

 

Capitalism isn't that bad really. I mean I'm in the lower class but still manage to have luxuries that even my parents would have thought unimaginable when they were my age (Internet, Video Games, HD Television etc.). Plus having a 3 bedroom house with a private pool sounds better than living in a boring gray walled studio apartment and driving a brand new muscle car around will be a lot more enjoyable than using "the people's transport" and riding the bus or subway everywhere. And if I have to work 50 hours a week to have it then so be it because I would probably end up working atleast the same amount of hours in a Communist society with no guarantee my standard of living would improve. And in all odds would probably go down significantly

What good are your luxuries when you spend your whole life preparing for work, going to work, working, coming home from work, and relaxing to prepare yourself for the next day of work? This was supposed to be your life, but instead you are an object, a piece of machinery essential to the reproduction of capital. You're dispensable property; a slave without quarters and visible chains. Yeah, you're living the dream--working yourself into an early grave is gonna be dope.

 

I'm happy for ya that you've finally got a chance to live in a house as opposed to an apartment--seriously--but you're still a prole. Your life still revolves around selling your labor, and it always will. You can never opt-out. And just because you have a roof over your head now doesn't mean you always will. But hey man, even in a society that's dependent on widespread systematic violence, exploitation, and ecological devastation, there's always Playstation.

[Mr. House]

A vast increase in technological wizardry, mass transit, healthcare blah blah that capitalism holds responsibility for is a consequence of the industrial revolution, not an aim of it. It just so happened that capitalism was the greatest form of holding power structures in a post feudalist world and thus was adopted.

 

Besides which, gadgets and gizmos are a distraction, they certainly don't fix the endemic issues that are part and parcel of the human condition. They're used to dull perception of how badly you're really getting f*cked.

 

As for large communes that exist perfectly well currently , there are various. Dial House in Essex comes to mind. The EZLN controlled areas of Mexico are a larger example

Edited October 3, 2014 by Myron

[make total destroy]

i have a playstation and therfore ur wrong or w/e

[Abel.]

The Israeli Kibbutzim are the best examples of quasi self-sufficient communes that spring to mind.

 

The Indian state of Kerala is a good example of a socialist society. I've no idea if it truly conforms to the ideals of socialism (that's for the more politically astute to decide), but, compared to other Indian states, the standard of living and literacy rate are excellent. Attitudes towards women are also good there:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerala#Human_Development_Index

 

I guess I'm conflicted on the matter of how good our system is. Anti-industrial protestors and such get on my nerves because I live in a part of the UK with a strong industrial and mining background (well, I did live there prior to university). As such I have a lot of sympathy for working class people--this is probably why I have left-leaning political views when it comes to most aspects of domestic policy. However, when it comes to foreign policy I gravitate more towards the right. Despite the shortcomings of our system, I support it as it trumps systems from other parts of the world. My own bisases towards the UK and Israel probably predispose me to supporting capitalism, too.

 

 

 

I certainly wouldn't be averse to living on a Kibbutz, though*, and I don't pretend to be well versed enough on political matters to talk about these matters objectively.

 

 

 

 

*In fact I would like to live on one after my university career and serve as a lone soldier, but that's peripheral to this topic.

 

 

 

All in all, capitalism is not without its faults, but I still believe that the modern Western world must be doing something right for our living standards to outweigh so greatly those of other nations. I also think our ideas of tolerance and freedom of expression are laudable even if they're not always perfectly applied.

Edited October 3, 2014 by Failure

[gtamann123]

I just don't see how life would markedly improve under anarcho-communism. How would a society that removes all incentive or requirement to work or to perform labor that isn't fun or interesting but necessary to the function of society even work? Sure it may work if everyone lived on little farms and grew their own food and lived in little huts with a wood stove and no electrical power. No indoor plumbing. No fancy appliances or gadgets. And had enough resources on their own little plot of land to fulfill all of their needs and didn't need to bother anyone for anything and just lived as hermits. But that's only a pipedream for the modern time. 99% of people don't have the required skills to grow their own food, make their own medcine, build their own furnitire, sew their own clothing, repair their own plumbing if a pipe in their bathroom breaks. So at some point someone else would have to perform these services for them but with no incentive why would they? And Wihtout a central authority and no one having the right to force people to do the work against their will how would it get done?

 

I also wonder what would happen to power generation and other untilities. Do you propose distributing solar panels to every single home and drilling a gas well in every single backyard to provide that home with heating gas in the winter? How would this be feasible? Who would perform the labor to construct the solar panels? Would every family be responsible for constructing their own solar panels? Who would harvest the materials necessary to make the solar panels? Who would dig the gas well? How would you have enough equipment so that everyone could dig their own gas well? What if someone doesn't have a gas reservoir in the backyard? Wood burning then? What if someone has no trees nearby so that they could get enough wood to burn in the stove?

 

I also struggle with understanding how the housing assignment would work. If everyone is equal and there is no hierarchy then who decides who gets to live in the luxurious mansion and who lives in the sh*tty apartment? If there isnt any hierarchy or governing authority to make these decisions who would make them? Would the community vote? What happens if everyone wants the same home? Wants the same resources? Decide it with a fist fight?

 

How would transit work? Would there be any fossil fuel dependant transit anymore like cars or buses or would we all just bicycle or walk wherever we wanted to go? What if you wanted to go visit grandma who lived in another commune 400 miles away? Pack up a bag and start cycling?

 

Wihtout any kind of central authority what happens if one commune wants to overrun another nearby commune in order to steal their supplies because there's are running low? So constant war between communes or between individuals is expected and accepted? Would there be any laws? Who would decide what's right and what's wrong? Could a group of pedophiles start their own commune where they bring children to be raped? Who would stop them without infringing on their right of free association? What happens when one commune becomes more successful than then one next to them and exploits their power to start using their neighboring commune as their slaves in order to do the work they don't want to do? Who would stop them?

 

If I possesed some power tools and a drill press that I used to create pieces of furniture that I traded with people for food or fuel for my furnace would it be confiscated because private capital and private ownership of the means of prodcution is illegal? Who would even have the authority to confiscate them if there is no government? The community? But I'm part of the community so would my voice just be ignored? Doesn't really sound like self governance to me.

 

Would consumption of meat be illegal? Would the husbandry and slaughtering of animals be considered counter productive to the sustainability of commune and thus anyone caught doing it would be punished? This once again brings me back to the "who has the authority to determine the rules and punishment"

 

I never said Capitalism was perfect but the way it seems we are still lightyears away from ever having anything even remotely resembling an anarchist-communist gift economy with no central authority leaving everyone to fend for themselves with nothing holding them back.

 

I know you dream of a society where all 7 Billion people on the planet are atheist, vegans, pansexual, genderless, sinless, and get along and share everything and are willing to go out of their way to perform labor for someone else just out of the kindness of their heart but I don't see it.

 

Sure it may work in small sparsely populated regions with the entire population being in favor of it but there's no way that could apply to the entire planet. Or even an entire country for that matter.

 

And do you seriously think that our standard of living here in the west would be as high as it is if we had developed a communist society at the dawn of the indutrial revolution instead of capitalist? I still feel that a good deal of technological and scientific advancements and innovations come about because of profit motive and wouldn't have happened if there were to be no profit to be made.

Edited October 3, 2014 by gtamann123

[Abel.]

I'm not sure if you are replying to me in particular.

 

 

I said in my post that I am largely supportive of our system. The examples of quasi-socialist societies that I gave were more or less a case of me playing Devil's Advocate.

[make total destroy]

BUT WAT ABOUT THE ROADS

[gtamann123]

I wasnt talking to you Failure I was talking to SPND and Myron. You posted while I was typing.

 

@SPND: Typical response. Nothing of any substance and not making any real points. I'm surprised you didn't post a youtube link to some sh*tty anarchist punk rock song or to some poorly written wikipedia article about Marx

 

I have literally searched high and low for answers to these questions from an anarchist-communist. YouTube, Forums, Blogs etc. And they all either sound way too optimistic and don't look at the whole picture. The general mindset is "if it can work in a commune of 100 like minded people why can't it work on a planet of over 7 Billion?" Or basically just ignore the question and just go on long winded rants about the bourgeoisie and explotation and stuff without providing any kind of answer or explanation on how an alternative can be achieved. Only that it has to be.

Edited October 3, 2014 by gtamann123

[make total destroy]

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value

 

be surprised no more

[Mr. House]

I wasnt talking to you Failure I was talking to SPND and Myron. You posted while I was typing.

 

@SPND: Typical response. Nothing of any substance and not making any real points. I'm surprised you didn't post a youtube link to some sh*tty anarchist punk rock song or to some poorly written wikipedia article about Marx

 

I have literally searched high and low for answers to these questions from an anarchist-communist. YouTube, Forums, Blogs etc. And they all either sound way too optimistic and don't look at the whole picture. The general mindset is "if it can work in a commune of 100 like minded people why can't it work on a planet of over 7 Billion?" Or basically just ignore the question and just go on long winded rants about the bourgeoisie and explotation and stuff without providing any kind of answer or explanation on how an alternative can be achieved. Only that it has to be.

When this was discussed in the prior topic, this sort of stuff was discussed. With sivispacem, the only person who bothered to actually discuss it, who then bowed out. You on the other hand were morbidly obsessed with arguing about hoarding mountain dew and wooden tables. You can see how one would be hesitant to indulge you in discussion after this, particularly when you claim to have already searched 'high and low' for answers.

 

Suffice to say if Kropotkin can't convince you, two or three twenty year olds on a grand theft auto forum can't.

[Xavierr]

These people who tell me not to drugs are starting to get annoying .

 

 

I guess it's time to join erowid where I can get advice from people who understand me

Edited October 3, 2014 by Xavierr

[mr quick]

These people who tell me not to drugs are starting to get annoying .

 

 

I guess it's time to join erowid where I can get advice from people who understand me

wow u r an badass

[Xavierr]

Like this lady is getting mad at me for wanting to grow my own garden of legal psychoactives at snd saying I'm gonna be the reason her medicine gets allowed. Kinda hyprocrytical.

 

Ancient people have been using herbs and smoking it for centuries. Why would Mother Nature let these plants grow if we weren't supposed to use them?

 

Why the negative attention now all of the sudden? Makes no sense.

Edited October 3, 2014 by Xavierr

[gtamann123]

Suffice to say if Kropotkin can't convince you, two or three twenty year olds on a grand theft auto forum can't.

Fair enough. I think I'm just going to stop thinking about it altogether. Which is really hard because Everytime I have tried to stop thinking about economics and politics I cant. I hate my brain for thinking about these things and wish I could just think about normal things like television and music and women and stuff like normal people do. But instead this kind of sh*t creeps into my mind and the next thing I know I'm back online reading the news or reading writings about goverment and economics and history without knowing how I got there. f*ck my brain.

Edited October 3, 2014 by gtamann123

[Xavierr]

 

 

These people who tell me not to drugs are starting to get annoying .

 

 

I guess it's time to join erowid where I can get advice from people who understand me

wow u r an badass

Not trying to come of as one. Sorry

[make total destroy]

I just don't see how life would markedly improve under anarcho-communism. How would a society that removes all incentive or requirement to work or to perform labor that isn't fun or interesting but necessary to the function of society even work?

 

Labor is the one thing that can rightfully be described as 'human nature'. The issue with labor within a capitalist mode of production is not that it's labor performed, but that it's labor performed in the interests of the bourgeoisie. I do not profit from selling my labor in any real, meaningful sense. My time and labor is appropriated in the interests of my exploiters, the only ones who truly profit. The problem with 'work' is that it's framed entirely in this context. That is, work is subjugation, exploitation, and brutality. 'Work' is not beneficial to the worker if only the capitalist benefits. Labor can and should be a joyful endeavor. It should not be a mindless task served in the interest of a minority.

 

Sure it may work if everyone lived on little farms and grew their own food and lived in little huts with a wood stove and no electrical power. No indoor plumbing. No fancy appliances or gadgets. And had enough resources on their own little plot of land to fulfill all of their needs and didn't need to bother anyone for anything and just lived as hermits

I fail to see how an anarchist society would be incapable of production, I just don't think that would be it's one and only motive. And that there'd probably be less dick pills, Ab-Rollers, and 40-hour-work weeks.

 

And Wihtout a central authority and no one having the right to force people to do the work against their will how would it get done?

lol do you take out the trash because you'll be homeless if you don't?

 

I also wonder what would happen to power generation and other untilities. Do you propose distributing solar panels to every single home and drilling a gas well in every single backyard to provide that home with heating gas in the winter? How would this be feasible? Who would perform the labor to construct the solar panels? Would every family be responsible for constructing their own solar panels? Who would harvest the materials necessary to make the solar panels? Who would dig the gas well? How would you have enough equipment so that everyone could dig their own gas well? What if someone doesn't have a gas reservoir in the backyard? Wood burning then? What if someone has no trees nearby so that they could get enough wood to burn in the stove?

 

what if i asked you a hypothetical question

 

 

I also struggle with understanding how the housing assignment would work. If everyone is equal and there is no hierarchy then who decides who gets to live in the luxurious mansion and who lives in the sh*tty apartment? If there isnt any hierarchy or governing authority to make these decisions who would make them? Would the community vote? What happens if everyone wants the same home? Wants the same resources? Decide it with a fist fight?

 

Luxurious mansions can be turned into hospitals, schools, or canteens as they were in Spain. Most folks, besides the bourgeoisie--whom would likely have a new home, if you know what I'm saying --would likely keep the homes they have now. The difference, whether they live in an apartment or a house, is that they would not owe their shelter to the 'generosity' of a capitalist. Indeed, they would become their own housing authority, and collective owners of the space they inhabit.

 

If private property were non-existent, there would be no need to squabble for resources. People themselves will deem which industries--if any--are sustainable, and practical to their needs. While said industries exist, they will be 'owned' and operated in common.

 

How would transit work?

Wasn't a problem in Catalonia.

 

Wihtout any kind of central authority what happens if one commune wants to overrun another nearby commune in order to steal their supplies because there's are running low?

Then that "commune" should be destroyed? I don't see why this would ever be an issue?

 

If I possesed some power tools and a drill press that I used to create pieces of furniture that I traded with people for food or fuel for my furnace would it be confiscated because private capital and private ownership of the means of prodcution is illegal? Who would even have the authority to confiscate them if there is no government? The community? But I'm part of the community so would my voice just be ignored? Doesn't really sound like self governance to me.

 

As long as you're not exploiting the labor of others, no one would give a sh*t. You'd have access to food and fuel anyway, so it's not like you'd actually benefit from such an arrangement.

 

Would consumption of meat be illegal?

I'd hazard to say 'no'. Is the meat industry f*cked up, and would it take on an entirely different form in an anarchist society? Yes.

 

And do you seriously think that our standard of living here in the west would be as high as it is if we had developed a communist society at the dawn of the indutrial revolution instead of capitalist?

I think we ought to 'raise the standard', if you will.