yo ashdexx

[Icarus]

Hi DexX, you sexy beast.

 

On-topic: Dem, maybe you should just stop now; I mean, you're not really gaining anything, except digging yourself an ever bigger hole in the ground. Soon enough, you're going to dig it too deep and not be able to climb yourself out of it.

 

Just have the topic closed; nothing good is coming out of it and judging from the last few pages, I would say the amount of respect people have for you is decreasing at an exponential rate.

 

Anywho, it's your call. Carry on...

 

 

Icarus walks out of the topic

[illspirit]

 

It should never behave in a way that would push talent away.

Like how you seem to have scared Space away?

 

 

Never said it never thought it. Make some more sh*t up. Again, this isn't a mod, it's an interpretor by which mods are made. This statement shows you still don't even know what's being talked about, so leave it for those who do.

Don't be silly, you know I know the difference between a mod and a mod tool. Hence why I said "mod or tool."

 

And wouldn't Space's .ini have technically been a modded .ini? And if it's our responsibility to make sure nobody is "factioning the community" by causing games to crash, what about all the code snippets people posts using personalized opcode labels? Or people posts compiled scripts using .ini's that may or may not be borked? Are we to check all them and reprimand everyone who does something different?

 

And I'm not being totally sarcastic now, really. Just wondering where would we draw the line.

 

 

So leave us to find out own destiny. Allow me to permit once again that this was handled by us before staff ever stepped in. Including the violence staff was so up in arms over being overlooked by the person it was directed at in favor of sticking together and talking out the discrepency. More than I can say for you guys.

Umm, we got involved because you're way wasn't working. It was pissing everybody off. The only people "sticking together" on the subject was everybody else asking you to calm down.

 

 

Why are you asking me?

Why are you acting like you've never seen me ask a rhetorical question?

 

 

If I had my way, this place would be run like it wishes to remain #1 tomorrow.

#1 what though? #1 convalescent home for the dying, soon-to-be-obsolete mod scene? #1 most hostile place in the intertubes for new members, change, or new ideas?

 

 

To answer your question though, over-reaction is always an option. You and you guys both have a flair for it. I much prefer a more balanced approach like... oh, I don't know... if it ain't broke don't fix it? You guys have never done jack sh*t for the coding scene except for appointing Y_Less, which was long overdue by time you guys got around to it. Why start now just because you THINK it's a chance to attack me?

Why start what now? Caring about the coding scene? Err, my hyperbolic idea was to delete the modding forums, not to care about them. In case you haven't noticed, I've not really had much interest in modding for like a year now. Most of the staff feels the same.

 

If "it ain't broke," then why are you so angry that Space and Pynthon destroyed/factioned it?

 

And a chance to attack you? Again, give me back my tinfoil hat. It looks better on me. Then go back and reread all my posts to you in this topic. I wasn't attacking you (at least at first), but rather asking you things, and trying to provide constructive criticism on how to better deal with code-related grievances. Even when I did call out your behavior somewhat personally, I still tried to frame it in a generic "what if we all did this" manner to put it in perspective.

 

Back on topic: Hi DexX!

[Otter]

If I did all this sh*t, even though I've never even been issued a warning before, wouldn't I be banned by now?

[Dup]

I think this thread sums up why I really do not want to visit here, but I still do. My posts are now mostly ignored... although probably stupid and pathetic anyway.

 

Self-richeous needy little vermin always trying to catch you with your pants down so they can eat you alive, weather you've done something wrong or just spilt your milk on your cookies.

 

This forum has never been short of some sort of drama between its higher ranked parents and children. I'll take my example of the original Dem, in a sense. Cerbera. In fact Cerb is probably one of the best members and modders along with Dexx, Dem etc etc. Naturally he's had his day from his moderating days where power and control easily took over and he couldn't control his need to force his great ideas onto everyone. I'm not saying his ideas were wrong, just they way the events took place, hence his de-modding.

 

Cerb and I actually are quite alike I have found, bar the obvious small intelligence barrier and the extremety of our similar tastes. Plus he's a southern fag But we were born a day apart. He's not the rediculous person he gets ridiculed for, although I do love a good Cerbwang joke now and again. Its more of a legend than a joke. I wish I'd done it to be honest, I like my cock. He's another example of a member who's had all the pressure thrown on him, then it taken away and himself ridiculed for what he's good at. But we're lucky to still have him around advising people. Nothing wrong with being pedantic, in the slightest. Much like there's nothing wrong with cross-dressing, I love womens underwear so sue me. But you'll ignore that, even if I posted pics of myself in my mothers finest. Weird that.

 

Anywho, I'm really trying not to visit this place. Finding less and less to care/bother about. I just find myself adding to the drama to fill in 5 mins at work. GTA4 will kill the modding community and the main reason this forum originally started. Now it's all gone a bit off-topic and as you can see one of the founders wholly agrees and joins in the hi-five activity. I never even finished playing SA, VC or GTAIII or even GTA 2 and I've been around since before this place existed.

 

Meh, if you stand back far enough you begin to see what a reflection on society GTAF has become, especially if you've been around the time I have. One thing is for sure, I'm never gonna change like that, I'm still going to be a retarded over-the-top c*nt and stand my ground... just not in this virtual hell-hole... it's had it. Thank you to those upstanding members who let the community lose it's focus.

 

Hai-Five and sorry about my english, I'm a bit of a Spazztard on the surface.

[Runestoner]

Nice topic title.....

 

 

But yeah, seriously, Dem, you're just digging yourelf a big hole here.

Edited October 29, 2006 by Runestoner

[Brutuz]

I can guess that at the next forum awards Dem might get member who's been banned the most times, well either him or mz.

[Gforce]

But yeah, seriously, Dem, you're just digging yourelf a big hole here.

not really, he dug the hole a long time ago, he's just giving us the chance to bury him in it

[Dome Piece]

Is this the part where Demarest gets all his karma stars taken away, then gets temp banned while the mods decide what to do with him, which eventually leads to him being banned, spreading outrage across the forums, only for him to be unbanned several months later, and then ofcourse returning his karma stars...?

 

- Dome Piece

[Sauron]

Anywho, I'm really trying not to visit this place.

yay

[Demarest]

 

What a blustering, pedantic, self important waste of our resources.

It's interesting that you don't take that stance with genchat, multi-threaders, those who post irresponsibly, having never touched the search feature, etc. But when somebody who IS concerned about forum resources tries to make sure the reservoir we've amassed isn't bled out by the reckless actions of one person who SHOULD know better, attack him. You've really thought this through! Enjoy the pretty lights.

 

 

It should never behave in a way that would push talent away.

Like how you seem to have scared Space away? Every day, each of us must face the consequences of our actions. When space was using his talent for accomplishing things, he met the consequences (karma for example) for it. When he was using his talent for something that could bring the scene to a halt, he met the consequences for that. Having seen the good and the bad, if he chooses to jet over doing the right thing, that's on him. BTW, your point fails in that I'm not staff. When I was, I DID behave in a way that was to help preserve this place as #1.

 

 

Don't be silly, you know I know the difference between a mod and a mod tool. Hence why I said "mod or tool."

But because 3DSMax doesn't need something like an INI, you don't appear to be able to imagine what it means. If somebody downloads a mod and it crashes their game, they MIGHT have enough in them to research it to determine if it was in fact their own error. If they determine (or bypass the process and assume) that the mod is a failure, they think "that author is a putz. I'll never use his work again" and life goes on. What you're talking about is something that doesn't make people's games crash. It A) causes people to cause peoples games to crash, B) presents new talent with a riddle they can't possibly best, in turn driving them away, and C) crosses the line of tradition. Keep in mind it does so without reason and without gain. So not only is it just a LITTLE different from a faulty mod or faulty tool, but it also had no reason to even be imagined, let alone realized.

 

 

And if it's our responsibility to make sure nobody is "factioning the community" by causing games to crash, what about all the code snippets people posts using personalized opcode labels?

And if you knew anything on the subject, you'd know that doing so is harmless. Additionally, you fail to make the distinction between what one does for themselves and what one releases for others to use.

 

 

Or people posts compiled scripts using .ini's that may or may not be borked?

May or may not be. Once upon a time (read: forever until space took it upon himself to change that for no reason), there was never a need to wonder. Maybe you're starting to get the point. I had no reason to suspect cross-contamination. What about the people out there just getting started and want to be what they perceive to be up to date? NOBODY should have to catalog or follow which INI something was made with. All interpretors should be uniform in terms of functionality. Exactly the point of it all.

 

 

Are we to check all them and reprimand everyone who does something different?

You can continue wasting your time on your weak "hypotheticals to make a point". The fact remains that we police ourselves. And yes, for years, everybody had the good taste to stay in line within reason. I can't speak for others, but I did it both for respect for those before me and to not rock the boat

 

 

Umm, we got involved because you're way wasn't working.

Wasn't working? space is no longer perpetuating damaging INI's. The other damaging INI's thread was closed. The only remaining active toolmaker (whom I deem to be our only potential savior interms of being able to code the next GTA) clarified his stance on everything and let me know DESPITE IDLE THREATS OF VIOLENCE that he agrees that we need to stand together. In other words, everybody involved came to the very end I was aiming for. And it wasn't an aim for my gain, but the community's. The fact that my concern is for how THAT comes out and not whatever fun staff has poking holes in my account should be a hint that MAYBE I'm onto something.

 

 

The only people "sticking together" on the subject was everybody else asking you to calm down.

You mean the ones talking about digging holes that don't even know what's being discussed? Such a compelling argument. Oh, and I've already mentioned several times that I'm perfectly calm. The fact that I can see how damaging something is and therefore how unwelcome it is doesn't at all indicate an emotional investment. Something you know full well I don't even bear the aparatus for It's because I DO grasp how uncontrolled and far-reaching the damage can be that I feel countermeasures need to be taken.

 

 

#1 what though? #1 convalescent home for the dying, soon-to-be-obsolete mod scene? #1 most hostile place in the intertubes for new members, change, or new ideas?

Well when I first became aware that GTA3 was moddable, it didn't take long to figure out that all the talent lived at GTAF. MANY times I've had questions about this or that, I've been able to find the answers right here. Whether by searching for it or failing in that search and complimenting my efforts with a thread. Staff carries on in a way that does NOT inhibit destructive forces but DOES inhibit those who can (insert qualifications here). If the tortoise and the hare taught us anything, it's that achieving #1 isn't just standing at the front of the line, but also working to remain there. R* isn't exactly dealing us the fairest hands, so that means we have to try even harder to keep it alive. You feel it's dead? Fine. I CERTAINLY understand why. Which is why I say (forgive me Craig for sharing a private convo

gtademarest: I'm displeased with the fading of the coding section to begin with. we don't need enemies from within, operating under a staff that could give a f*ck less if we sank on top of it all

CraigKostelecky: That I COMPLETELY agree with

My point is that just because YOU feel it's alive, doesn't mean you flush it down the toilet. I'm not the only one still modding or trying to learn to.

 

 

If "it ain't broke," then why are you so angry that Space and Pynthon destroyed/factioned it?

I don't believe for a moment you don't understand the spirit of that cliche. By changing things, they are asserting to have fixed them. However, their actions that proposed to fix things actually breaks them. To answer your question, it's because it took something eligible for the description of "it ain't broke" and qualified it.

 

 

And a chance to attack you? Again, give me back my tinfoil hat. It looks better on me. Then go back and reread all my posts to you in this topic. I wasn't attacking you

I never fingered YOU. Now that you mention it (and feel free to avoid the urge to twist my words into saying that by saying this, I'm saying you were attacking me), you HAVE twisted around and flat out fabricated a great deal. Which I reply to. At which point those who only come here for the pictures or the bloodletting see that neither are present, and are relegated to bitching about length. Of course the bitching's aimed at me and not the people who provoked the offering of the truth. Edited October 30, 2006 by Demarest

[illspirit]

 

Every day, each of us must face the consequences of our actions. When space was using his talent for accomplishing things, he met the consequences (karma for example) for it. When he was using his talent for something that could bring the scene to a halt, he met the consequences for that. Having seen the good and the bad, if he chooses to jet over doing the right thing, that's on him.

So, despite all the good he's done, and despite all of his talent, driving him away over one foolish act which negatively affected the community is justifiable?

 

 

BTW, your point fails in that I'm not staff. When I was, I DID behave in a way that was to help preserve this place as #1.

I'm sorry, you didn't say whether "it" in the post I quoted meant staff or members in general. I assumed you meant the latter in some sort of collective, egalitarian sense. Point taken.

 

 

But because 3DSMax doesn't need something like an INI, you don't appear to be able to imagine what it means. If somebody downloads a mod and it crashes their game, they MIGHT have enough in them to research it to determine if it was in fact their own error. If they determine (or bypass the process and assume) that the mod is a failure, they think "that author is a putz. I'll never use his work again" and life goes on. What you're talking about is something that doesn't make people's games crash. It A) causes people to cause peoples games to crash, B) presents new talent with a riddle they can't possibly best, in turn driving them away, and C) crosses the line of tradition.

No, but it requires a bunch of backend files such as MaxScripts and file format doc's so it knows how to compile 3D assets on export. These, for all practical purposes, behave like an .ini for the triangle heads. Should someone screw up on one of these files, and swap the order that, say, materials and prelight colors are read into the vertex array, a similar manner of untraceable, seemingly random, and quite obscure crashes can occur. And like the problem with Space's .ini, this can trip up newbie and experienced modelers alike.

 

In fact, up until a couple of months ago, we've had a random crashing problem with MI-VC which ended up being caused by borked RWclump order of some sort in a model or two Odie released like three years ago. Even after finding the problem, it took GForce another month or so to fix it before we could get the models back into Max for re-exportation into MI-SA.

 

AFAIK, O-Dog was using Steve's .dff definition, so shall I run Steve out of the community now, or do you want to?

 

 

And if you knew anything on the subject, you'd know that doing so is harmless. Additionally, you fail to make the distinction between what one does for themselves and what one releases for others to use.

Failing to make distinctions?! Err, hello context? In case you missed the last line of that paragraph, I was asking you where one should make the distinction!

 

No. Really. I'm serious. You said it was a bad thing that Pynthon told beginners to make their own labels when starting out. And that it was bad because if people started releasing such snippets, that it would introduce instability and confusion, break the tradition of homogenous code, etc..

 

 

May or may not be. Once upon a time (read: forever until space took it upon himself to change that for no reason), there was never a need to wonder. Maybe you're starting to get the point. I had no reason to suspect cross-contamination. What about the people out there just getting started and want to be what they perceive to be up to date? NOBODY should have to catalog or follow which INI something was made with. All interpretors should be uniform in terms of functionality. Exactly the point of it all.

Are we only talking about undocumented changes? Or any changes whatsoever? Because I seem to remember seeing at least one instance where Barton changed something in a seemingly arbitrary manner. Maybe it was documented, but I've been bitten by moved var's after .ini/MB updates before Space took over, and I don't even code much...

 

 

You can continue wasting your time on your weak "hypotheticals to make a point".

Again, for once, this wan't one of my hyperbolic examples, I was asking you at what point should the line be drawn.

 

 

The fact remains that we police ourselves. And yes, for years, everybody had the good taste to stay in line within reason. I can't speak for others, but I did it both for respect for those before me and to not rock the boat

Hmm, that's funny, I've been around for years too, and I don't remember jihads like the one you declared on Space ever being in "good taste" or "within reason" over a simple mistake. And I studied the black arts of Bastard Admin'ing under Teknics at GTAGA. I let Baz release the hounds on the forums. I sipped tea and lol'd while Needles IP banned all of AOL for fun. And I still think you went overboard.

 

 

Wasn't working? space is no longer perpetuating damaging INI's.

So driving someone away for perpetuating damage, regardless of their contributions, is considered "working" now?

 

 

The other damaging INI's thread was closed. The only remaining active toolmaker (whom I deem to be our only potential savior interms of being able to code the next GTA) clarified his stance on everything and let me know DESPITE IDLE THREATS OF VIOLENCE that he agrees that we need to stand together. In other words, everybody involved came to the very end I was aiming for. And it wasn't an aim for my gain, but the community's.

And who died and elected you dictator over what is and isn't good for the community?

 

 

The fact that my concern is for how THAT comes out and not whatever fun staff has poking holes in my account should be a hint that MAYBE I'm onto something.

Well if you're not concerned about the staff "poking holes" in your account, why are we having this discussion?

 

 

You mean the ones talking about digging holes that don't even know what's being discussed? Such a compelling argument.

No, I meant all the people involved in the intitial discussion. However there a couple of people in this topic talking about holes who do know what we're talking about...

 

 

Oh, and I've already mentioned several times that I'm perfectly calm. The fact that I can see how damaging something is and therefore how unwelcome it is doesn't at all indicate an emotional investment. Something you know full well I don't even bear the aparatus for It's because I DO grasp how uncontrolled and far-reaching the damage can be that I feel countermeasures need to be taken.

Umm, didn't you just like admit that you said you were gloing to choke someone out of anger and that you stepped away for a day or two to cool down?

 

 

Well when I first became aware that GTA3 was moddable, it didn't take long to figure out that all the talent lived at GTAF. MANY times I've had questions about this or that, I've been able to find the answers right here. Whether by searching for it or failing in that search and complimenting my efforts with a thread. Staff carries on in a way that does NOT inhibit destructive forces but DOES inhibit those who can (insert qualifications here). If the tortoise and the hare taught us anything, it's that achieving #1 isn't just standing at the front of the line, but also working to remain there.

Right. However, you do realize at least part of the reason we are "#1" is because of all the things you hate about this place? If it weren't for things like GenChat or PGC, activity on the forums as a whole would have never reached the level where they are today. And if the forums had always been dead with only a modding related post twice a day, nobody would have stuck around. Not to mention the people who don't even come for modding in the first place who get drawn into those areas after a while.

 

 

R* isn't exactly dealing us the fairest hands, so that means we have to try even harder to keep it alive. You feel it's dead? Fine. I CERTAINLY understand why. Which is why I say (forgive me Craig for sharing a private convo

 

My point is that just because YOU feel it's alive, doesn't mean you flush it down the toilet. I'm not the only one still modding or trying to learn to.

And when R* finally decides to unhook the life support from modding, all we'll have left is general game discussion stuff and off-topic things. If R* doesn't want us modding GTA4, no amount of trying "even harder" will change that. As such, we have no intentions of putting all our eggs into the modding basket, as there's no sense striving to be the "#1" obsolete mausoleum.

 

 

I don't believe for a moment you don't understand the spirit of that cliche. By changing things, they are asserting to have fixed them. However, their actions that proposed to fix things actually breaks them. To answer your question, it's because it took something eligible for the description of "it ain't broke" and qualified it.

And I don't believe for a moment you didn't understand the spirit my last brazillionty cliches in this topic. Looks like the table is on the other foot now...

 

 

I never fingered YOU.

 

 

Why start now just because you THINK it's a chance to attack me?

Looks like you said "you" to me...

 

 

Now that you mention it (and feel free to avoid the urge to twist my words into saying that by saying this, I'm saying you were attacking me), you HAVE twisted around and flat out fabricated a great deal.

And in reverse? Mr. take-everything-out-of-context-and-argue-excerpts-with-ad-hominem-straw-men man.

 

 

Which I reply to.

..On a microscopic, ad hoc basis, ignoring pretty much everything I'm saying, and only hearing that which you want to take indignant offense at.

 

 

At which point those who only come here for the pictures or the bloodletting see that neither are present, and are relegated to bitching about length. Of course the bitching's aimed at me and not the people who provoked the offering of the truth.

Perhaps because "truth" is relative to the observer and everybody else thinks you're wrong?

[Demarest]

So, despite all the good he's done, and despite all of his talent, driving him away over one foolish act which negatively affected the community is justifiable?

Read what was written. He could choose to stop the destructive act, continue the destructive act, or punch out altogether. His choice. However he chooses is on him.

 

 

No, but it requires a bunch of backend files such as MaxScripts and file format doc's so it knows how to compile 3D assets on export. These, for all practical purposes, behave like an .ini for the triangle heads. Should someone screw up on one of these files, and swap the order that, say, materials and prelight colors are read into the vertex array, a similar manner of untraceable, seemingly random, and quite obscure crashes can occur. And like the problem with Space's  .ini, this can trip up newbie and experienced modelers alike.

 

In fact, up until a couple of months ago, we've had a random crashing problem with MI-VC which ended up being caused by borked RWclump order of some sort in a model or two Odie released like three years ago. Even after finding the problem, it took GForce another month or so to fix it before we could get the models back into Max for re-exportation into MI-SA.

 

AFAIK, O-Dog was using Steve's .dff definition, so shall I run Steve out of the community now, or do you want to? 

Please. Like steve of all people would do such a thing. If things need to be in a certain order to function, I'm sure he knows well enough to keep it that way. If he did otherwise, I'm certain it was a mistake. Look at me, believing in somebody that's proved they've earned it. Izhn't dat veird?

 

 

Failing to make distinctions?! Err, hello context? In case you missed the last line of that paragraph, I was asking you where one should make the distinction!

What most people fail to realize is that what I'm advocating is common sense. The distinction has always been understood. And still is, really. What you do for your own game is one thing. What you release and profess to others can be used, should be community-minded. Now the flavor text doesn't actually impact how MB uses it. At the same time, there are disadvantages to changing "destroy_car" to "delete_vehicle" for example. Mostly just that some of us are in the habit of searching for the word destroy and rightfully so as it's always been that way. So while it's harmless by comparison, it still shouldn't be entertained.

 

 

No. Really. I'm serious. You said it was a bad thing that Pynthon told beginners to make their own labels when starting out. And that it was bad because if people started releasing such snippets, that it would introduce instability and confusion, break the tradition of homogenous code, etc..

No, that wasn't about flavor text. It was about var names. While not as disastrous as a broken INI (sascm.ini, implied), a broken variables.ini will still cause functional confusion and should not be entertained or released. Again, there's no gain in doing so anyways, so the motives of one who would try need to be questioned.

 

 

Are we only talking about undocumented changes? Or any changes whatsoever? Because I seem to remember seeing at least one instance where Barton changed something in a seemingly arbitrary manner. Maybe it was documented, but I've been bitten by moved var's after .ini/MB updates before Space took over, and I don't even code much...

Well if you're asking purist me, I don't think any changes whatsoever should be made except where needed. However, in keeping with the spirit of what's best for the community, functional changes are out of the question. Those of us higher up on the food chain can discuss the finer points all we want. We still have a responsibility to NOT break things for the new guys. Oh, but your example of being bitten despite not at all being into it is exactly the kind of thing we need to not risk in the first place.

 

 

Again, for once, this wan't one of my hyperbolic examples, I was asking you at what point should the line be drawn.

We draw the lines ourselves. The pioneers drew the lines where they were best suited, Barton followed along, those of us who were next continued to follow along, and so on. I repeat that this is the first time in our evolution where the process was ever second-guessed. I also repeat that the reason the status quo remaining intact is that those handling it respected the roots of the scene as well as perceived no reason to change it, let alone anything to gain from changing it.

 

 

Hmm, that's funny, I've been around for years too, and I don't remember jihads like the one you declared on Space ever being in "good taste" or "within reason" over a simple mistake.

Simple mistake? Simple mistake would've been meaning to convert an h% parameter to a b% parameter and accidentally typing it wrong. To change the param order (the point) is a conscious decision which has requisites such as a perceived need to, a perceived gain from, etc. I don't know how many times I need to point out the general basics. Or the specifics like, for example, that he's already stated he was aware that he was doing something that shouldn't be done. So why don't you ditch the "well he didn't mean to break the community" attitude and realize that that doesn't matter because what he DID intend to do happened to bring that along with it.

 

 

And I studied the black arts of Bastard Admin'ing under Teknics at GTAGA. I let Baz release the hounds on the forums. I sipped tea and lol'd while Needles IP banned all of AOL for fun. And I still think you went overboard.

Yes, I know: Dem is always wrong. The audacity that anybody would set forth to accomplish such a thing when there's no reason or gain from it is overboard. Nothing but destruction, but let's do it anyways despite it never being done. That's overboard. If you want to kill an ant, the tip of your finger will suffice. Find yourself against a 300 pound gorilla, you might have to select a different approach. If you think I was overboard, then maybe take a look into what I was trying to swat down with it. THAT'S overboard. A then B.

 

 

So driving someone away for perpetuating damage, regardless of their contributions, is considered "working" now?

That was negative feedback for the action. If instead of JUST curbing the negative action, he takes off altogether, that's on him. STILL.

 

 

And who died and elected you dictator over what is and isn't good for the community?

Still proposing this has anything to do with me, eh? It doesn't take a rocket ship to figure out that that which introduces unnecessary contradictions into the community is bad for it. But hey, since it's Demarest asserting such, question the validity when it's terribly obvious

 

 

Well if you're not concerned about the staff "poking holes" in your account, why are we having this discussion?

You tell me. You're the one perpetuating what the whole debacle is actually about and you're attempting to dismantle all of it. You see it's about having a voice and using that voice responsibly. Like me standing up and saying "this is wrong" because I'm in a position to do so. Like you standing up and saying "Dem's a monster" because you're in a position to do so. Because if illspirit speaks out against Dem, it MUST be true. Nevermind the fact that you're using look at the monkey techniques to detract any onlookers from even entertaining that there's truth in what I'm saying. What? You think I'm new to this?

 

 

No, I meant all the people involved in the intitial discussion. However there a couple of people in this topic talking about holes who do know what we're talking about...

The area of the ONE person who knows what this is about and the area of those talking about digging holes do not intersect. Use that voice to say it does though so those without the willpower to figure it out for themselves will default to your assessment

 

 

Umm, didn't you just like admit that you said you were gloing to choke someone out of anger and that you stepped away for a day or two to cool down?

Isn't your username illspirit? We can all plainly see that that's the case so what would I accomplish in asking it? Or how about I suggest that your name canNOT be that because you're wearing that av? Like the two cannot coexist. Like just because I reacted to somebody suggesting space and Pynton are fine when they're breaking things, but I'm the devil when I fix the damage means that my concern about the INI's is with the community in mind. About time you try muttering "OIL CAN!"

 

 

Right. However, you do realize at least part of the reason we are "#1" is because of all the things you hate about this place? If it weren't for things like GenChat or PGC

Never said I hated either. Make some more sh*t up. See, when you say sh*t like that, people innocently hanging around think I have a problem with them en masse when I don't. My contempt is for the fact that when people post for nothing more than to tear others down, it goes unnoticed. At the same time, one of the most prolific contributors (take a moment to read ONE OF so you don't do your tirade Dem thinks he's THE sh*t) is being f*cked with over avatar sizes when there's not even a rule? It doesn't take a rocket ship to realize that things like politics far outweigh what's in the best interest of GTA fans and such. Stop pretending you don't get it because if memory serves, you once quit over the fact that things are no longer carried out by way of what's best for the place and not, but rather whim. Like allowing animosity to grow between people just because they wave different gang flags, but let's kill things like the search feature or months of hard work of modding and gameplay data so that those so eager to breed division amongst themselves can do so at greater speeds.

 

 

Not to mention the people who don't even come for modding in the first place who get drawn into those areas after a while.

THAT never happens. It's been my experience that some of the best modding contributors rarely even play the game. We come from a "how does this work" mentality and we prefer to be kicking about the innards of SOMETHING. OR some poor bastard really likes the game and just wants to be able to tweak this and that. These are the people the mod. You can't tell me with a straight face that people who come here for the community alone one day wake up and feel like modding just because GTA appears in the URL of a place they like to hang out.

 

 

And when R* finally decides to unhook the life support from modding, all we'll have left is general game discussion stuff and off-topic things. If R* doesn't want us modding GTA4, no amount of trying "even harder" will change that. As such, we have no intentions of putting all our eggs into the modding basket, as there's no sense striving to be the "#1" obsolete mausoleum.

For as long as there are people wishing to mod the game, SOMEPLACE is going to be the #1 spot. Just because SA is current does not mean that there are not those still modding GTA3. Those wanting to learn will turn SOMEWHERE. I know for a fact that the pioneers did not set up shop here just to later watch it pissed away by some child with an ego problem being put into a position where he can decide what goes and does not by personal whim alone.

 

 

Looks like you said "you" to me...

In the English language, you can also be plural. Which means that if I say you to you, I could mean humans, GTAF'ers, just you, gun owners, staff, modders, etc. I guess what I'm wondering is why you're so convinced that I am untrustworthy that if you seek clarification and I give it, you remain convinced that I was speaking to just you.

 

 

Perhaps because "truth" is relative to the observer and everybody else thinks you're wrong?

No, the truth is the truth, which means even you can only ATTEMPT to skew it. It is what it is. If others choose to follow one's misleadings about it, well, perception is reality. It's still the truth that I never should've been banned for example. It's still the truth that genchat access has never been a punishment or that it was crafted to amuse those who needs such things for amusement. It's still the truth that those before us did things to enable us to do the things we do and that we should not cross that line/spirit by using it to dismantle it for others who take an interest. I could do this all day. But you go ahead and try to argue that things that aren't there are, things that are there aren't, and that I have no way of being right because you disagree with my goal, my method, my name, my history, or whatever other rock happens to be in reach that moment

[Opius]

 

So, despite all the good he's done, and despite all of his talent, driving him away over one foolish act which negatively affected the community is justifiable?

Read what was written. He could choose to stop the destructive act, continue the destructive act, or punch out altogether. His choice. However he chooses is on him.

 

 

No, but it requires a bunch of backend files such as MaxScripts and file format doc's so it knows how to compile 3D assets on export. These, for all practical purposes, behave like an .ini for the triangle heads. Should someone screw up on one of these files, and swap the order that, say, materials and prelight colors are read into the vertex array, a similar manner of untraceable, seemingly random, and quite obscure crashes can occur. And like the problem with Space's  .ini, this can trip up newbie and experienced modelers alike.

 

In fact, up until a couple of months ago, we've had a random crashing problem with MI-VC which ended up being caused by borked RWclump order of some sort in a model or two Odie released like three years ago. Even after finding the problem, it took GForce another month or so to fix it before we could get the models back into Max for re-exportation into MI-SA.

 

AFAIK, O-Dog was using Steve's .dff definition, so shall I run Steve out of the community now, or do you want to? 

Please. Like steve of all people would do such a thing. If things need to be in a certain order to function, I'm sure he knows well enough to keep it that way. If he did otherwise, I'm certain it was a mistake. Look at me, believing in somebody that's proved they've earned it. Izhn't dat veird?

 

 

Failing to make distinctions?! Err, hello context? In case you missed the last line of that paragraph, I was asking you where one should make the distinction!

What most people fail to realize is that what I'm advocating is common sense. The distinction has always been understood. And still is, really. What you do for your own game is one thing. What you release and profess to others can be used, should be community-minded. Now the flavor text doesn't actually impact how MB uses it. At the same time, there are disadvantages to changing "destroy_car" to "delete_vehicle" for example. Mostly just that some of us are in the habit of searching for the word destroy and rightfully so as it's always been that way. So while it's harmless by comparison, it still shouldn't be entertained.

 

 

No. Really. I'm serious. You said it was a bad thing that Pynthon told beginners to make their own labels when starting out. And that it was bad because if people started releasing such snippets, that it would introduce instability and confusion, break the tradition of homogenous code, etc..

No, that wasn't about flavor text. It was about var names. While not as disastrous as a broken INI (sascm.ini, implied), a broken variables.ini will still cause functional confusion and should not be entertained or released. Again, there's no gain in doing so anyways, so the motives of one who would try need to be questioned.

 

 

Are we only talking about undocumented changes? Or any changes whatsoever? Because I seem to remember seeing at least one instance where Barton changed something in a seemingly arbitrary manner. Maybe it was documented, but I've been bitten by moved var's after .ini/MB updates before Space took over, and I don't even code much...

Well if you're asking purist me, I don't think any changes whatsoever should be made except where needed. However, in keeping with the spirit of what's best for the community, functional changes are out of the question. Those of us higher up on the food chain can discuss the finer points all we want. We still have a responsibility to NOT break things for the new guys. Oh, but your example of being bitten despite not at all being into it is exactly the kind of thing we need to not risk in the first place.

 

 

Again, for once, this wan't one of my hyperbolic examples, I was asking you at what point should the line be drawn.

We draw the lines ourselves. The pioneers drew the lines where they were best suited, Barton followed along, those of us who were next continued to follow along, and so on. I repeat that this is the first time in our evolution where the process was ever second-guessed. I also repeat that the reason the status quo remaining intact is that those handling it respected the roots of the scene as well as perceived no reason to change it, let alone anything to gain from changing it.

 

 

Hmm, that's funny, I've been around for years too, and I don't remember jihads like the one you declared on Space ever being in "good taste" or "within reason" over a simple mistake.

Simple mistake? Simple mistake would've been meaning to convert an h% parameter to a b% parameter and accidentally typing it wrong. To change the param order (the point) is a conscious decision which has requisites such as a perceived need to, a perceived gain from, etc. I don't know how many times I need to point out the general basics. Or the specifics like, for example, that he's already stated he was aware that he was doing something that shouldn't be done. So why don't you ditch the "well he didn't mean to break the community" attitude and realize that that doesn't matter because what he DID intend to do happened to bring that along with it.

 

 

And I studied the black arts of Bastard Admin'ing under Teknics at GTAGA. I let Baz release the hounds on the forums. I sipped tea and lol'd while Needles IP banned all of AOL for fun. And I still think you went overboard.

Yes, I know: Dem is always wrong. The audacity that anybody would set forth to accomplish such a thing when there's no reason or gain from it is overboard. Nothing but destruction, but let's do it anyways despite it never being done. That's overboard. If you want to kill an ant, the tip of your finger will suffice. Find yourself against a 300 pound gorilla, you might have to select a different approach. If you think I was overboard, then maybe take a look into what I was trying to swat down with it. THAT'S overboard. A then B.

 

 

So driving someone away for perpetuating damage, regardless of their contributions, is considered "working" now?

That was negative feedback for the action. If instead of JUST curbing the negative action, he takes off altogether, that's on him. STILL.

 

 

And who died and elected you dictator over what is and isn't good for the community?

Still proposing this has anything to do with me, eh? It doesn't take a rocket ship to figure out that that which introduces unnecessary contradictions into the community is bad for it. But hey, since it's Demarest asserting such, question the validity when it's terribly obvious

 

 

Well if you're not concerned about the staff "poking holes" in your account, why are we having this discussion?

You tell me. You're the one perpetuating what the whole debacle is actually about and you're attempting to dismantle all of it. You see it's about having a voice and using that voice responsibly. Like me standing up and saying "this is wrong" because I'm in a position to do so. Like you standing up and saying "Dem's a monster" because you're in a position to do so. Because if illspirit speaks out against Dem, it MUST be true. Nevermind the fact that you're using look at the monkey techniques to detract any onlookers from even entertaining that there's truth in what I'm saying. What? You think I'm new to this?

 

 

No, I meant all the people involved in the intitial discussion. However there a couple of people in this topic talking about holes who do know what we're talking about...

The area of the ONE person who knows what this is about and the area of those talking about digging holes do not intersect. Use that voice to say it does though so those without the willpower to figure it out for themselves will default to your assessment

 

 

Umm, didn't you just like admit that you said you were gloing to choke someone out of anger and that you stepped away for a day or two to cool down?

Isn't your username illspirit? We can all plainly see that that's the case so what would I accomplish in asking it? Or how about I suggest that your name canNOT be that because you're wearing that av? Like the two cannot coexist. Like just because I reacted to somebody suggesting space and Pynton are fine when they're breaking things, but I'm the devil when I fix the damage means that my concern about the INI's is with the community in mind. About time you try muttering "OIL CAN!"

 

 

Right. However, you do realize at least part of the reason we are "#1" is because of all the things you hate about this place? If it weren't for things like GenChat or PGC

Never said I hated either. Make some more sh*t up. See, when you say sh*t like that, people innocently hanging around think I have a problem with them en masse when I don't. My contempt is for the fact that when people post for nothing more than to tear others down, it goes unnoticed. At the same time, one of the most prolific contributors (take a moment to read ONE OF so you don't do your tirade Dem thinks he's THE sh*t) is being f*cked with over avatar sizes when there's not even a rule? It doesn't take a rocket ship to realize that things like politics far outweigh what's in the best interest of GTA fans and such. Stop pretending you don't get it because if memory serves, you once quit over the fact that things are no longer carried out by way of what's best for the place and not, but rather whim. Like allowing animosity to grow between people just because they wave different gang flags, but let's kill things like the search feature or months of hard work of modding and gameplay data so that those so eager to breed division amongst themselves can do so at greater speeds.

 

 

Not to mention the people who don't even come for modding in the first place who get drawn into those areas after a while.

THAT never happens. It's been my experience that some of the best modding contributors rarely even play the game. We come from a "how does this work" mentality and we prefer to be kicking about the innards of SOMETHING. OR some poor bastard really likes the game and just wants to be able to tweak this and that. These are the people the mod. You can't tell me with a straight face that people who come here for the community alone one day wake up and feel like modding just because GTA appears in the URL of a place they like to hang out.

 

 

And when R* finally decides to unhook the life support from modding, all we'll have left is general game discussion stuff and off-topic things. If R* doesn't want us modding GTA4, no amount of trying "even harder" will change that. As such, we have no intentions of putting all our eggs into the modding basket, as there's no sense striving to be the "#1" obsolete mausoleum.

For as long as there are people wishing to mod the game, SOMEPLACE is going to be the #1 spot. Just because SA is current does not mean that there are not those still modding GTA3. Those wanting to learn will turn SOMEWHERE. I know for a fact that the pioneers did not set up shop here just to later watch it pissed away by some child with an ego problem being put into a position where he can decide what goes and does not by personal whim alone.

 

 

Looks like you said "you" to me...

In the English language, you can also be plural. Which means that if I say you to you, I could mean humans, GTAF'ers, just you, gun owners, staff, modders, etc. I guess what I'm wondering is why you're so convinced that I am untrustworthy that if you seek clarification and I give it, you remain convinced that I was speaking to just you.

 

 

Perhaps because "truth" is relative to the observer and everybody else thinks you're wrong?

No, the truth is the truth, which means even you can only ATTEMPT to skew it. It is what it is. If others choose to follow one's misleadings about it, well, perception is reality. It's still the truth that I never should've been banned for example. It's still the truth that genchat access has never been a punishment or that it was crafted to amuse those who needs such things for amusement. It's still the truth that those before us did things to enable us to do the things we do and that we should not cross that line/spirit by using it to dismantle it for others who take an interest. I could do this all day. But you go ahead and try to argue that things that aren't there are, things that are there aren't, and that I have no way of being right because you disagree with my goal, my method, my name, my history, or whatever other rock happens to be in reach that moment

shut up fa**ot

[palaric8]

 

 

best reply ever and i completely agree

 

dem:you are 30 years old,you dont need to shown your writing skills to us,because:

 

1)we dont give a sh*t

2)see above

 

 

really just say the magic word to the admini..

 

SORRY I WAS AN ASS,I'M SORRY.

 

 

[ACA]

Dear Demarest,

 

Get arrested again.

 

Sincerely,

ACA.

[Guybrush Threepwood]

I don't get all the down-voting on this topic.

It has offered me great comedic value, thus I've voted it good.

Thanks to everybody for making this funny (and at the same time tragic, but alas).

[Alfresco]

WILL ALL YOU MOTHERF*CKERS PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD SAY HELLO TO DEXX!!

 

 

[chaosislife]

ok, Alf? it was funny the first couple of times but now?......shut up k?

[Alfresco]

Way to not get the point man.

 

The posts I'm making in this topic are just as irrelevant as Demolests. the only useful things being said are between Dem and illy, which they might as well just take to PMs. (oh and Opius' because he says what we're all thinking)

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Hello to dexx.

 

 

P.S. - Alf loves the cock.

[chaosislife]

haha Demolest

 

did you misspell that on purpose Alf?

[thyzza]

haha Demolest

 

did you misspell that on purpose Alf?

Jesus, f*ck.

[DexX]

 

I know for a fact that the pioneers did not set up shop here just to later watch it pissed away by some child with an ego problem being put into a position where he can decide what goes and does not by personal whim alone.

This has some disturbing implications, though after reading the topic through, they won't be anything new.

 

 

some child with an ego problem being put into a position where he can decide what goes and does not by personal whim alone.

That reference could be any of a number of people, including yourself. For the sake of this topic however, it would probably be safe to say you mean either Space, or myself. In space's case, i somehow can't him messing up one parameter in the INI, solely to stroke his ego. In my case, i can assure you that no ego boost was intended or gained by acting on personal whims enforcing the rules. To go one further on that assumption, you presume that my ego would be boosted by warning you, which is in turn hinting at a falsely elevated stature. So to go back to the crux of this topic, and why my (former) name is in the title; Warning you shatters that thought, as you get treated like any other common member. of course, it would certainly take a "child with an ego problem" to reply to damn near EVERY post in the topic, that so much as sneezes in your direction, and as a self-appointed leader in your area, i'd say, if you really live up to what you think your stature is, your in a "position where he can decide what goes and does not" and it was certainly along the lines of your "personal whim", in driving space away; no one else reacted the way you did. And that brings me back to one of my first points, that you are a arrogant, self-obsessed narcistic nutjob. Feel free to rebut that last statement of mine, as that rebuttal, and the other 6 pages of this topic only reinforce it.

 

Now being as i don't live in this topic, i'll follow up your response in advance; Shut the hell up already. If your really the mission coding savior sent from above, as you would have us believe, then take all the effort your mustering for a response to me, and go focus it somewhere else. like say, in the mission coding area. i think we can both agree thats a more productive use of your resources.

 

@ rest of topic: hello all!

[vALKYR]

 

haha  Demolest

 

did you misspell that on purpose Alf?

Your brain is broken. Go fix it.

 

I would like to ask Demarest a few questions: 1) How long does it take to type up these ultra long posts, 2) do you really expect that everyone reads it? and 3) does the Super-String theory effectively combines quantum-mechanic physics with gravity?

 

If you're really that what you're trying to tell us all the time, I can see you answering all questions with no problems so

 

Thank You and ... Namaste.

Edited October 31, 2006 by vALKYR

[Demarest]

some child with an ego problem being put into a position where he can decide what goes and does not by personal whim alone.

That reference could be any of a number of people, including yourself. For the sake of this topic however, it would probably be safe to say you mean either Space, or myself.Wrong. It doesn't implicate any number of people or myself. I'm not even on staff and neither is space! If you don't know what you're talking about, don't open your mouth. It was funny you build such a long defense built on some false pretense.

 

 

In space's case, i somehow can't him messing up one parameter in the INI

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Come back when you do.

 

 

of course, it would certainly take a "child with an ego problem" to reply to damn near EVERY post in the topic

No it doesn't. Read some of the posts and tell me anybody knows what the topic's REALLY about. Even you don't seem to. But if you spew forth an untruth, I'll correct it. So if you're really so bent up about length, put a halt to all the falsehoods. Of course, that would require you to open your scope beyond just me

 

 

it was certainly along the lines of your "personal whim", in driving space away

I didn't drive space away. Try reading.

 

 

that you are a arrogant, self-obsessed narcistic

My actions were to protect others that aren't even here yet. That's not arrogant, self-obsessed, or narcisistic. Maybe get an idea of what's going on before your "oh goody, I get to attack Dem" nerve kicks in.

 

 

If your really the mission coding savior sent from above, as you would have us believe

Never thought it never said it. Make some more sh*t up. You don't have to be a savior to recognize that that which will divide a community is bad for it. You MIGHT have to be able to look past your own hard-on for me however

 

 

take all the effort your mustering for a response to me, and go focus it somewhere else. like say, in the mission coding area. i think we can both agree thats a more productive use of your resources.

Don't talk sh*t here and I won't have anything to say here. But I spend my time in the coding area helping others just fine. The fact that you could say that while I am only further reinforces what I've said.

[GT-1]

The topic is about you seemingly arguing a warning from a moderator. You broke the rules, as a result you were warned and rightfully too. DexX did not have a go at you in any-way in the warning. There never was any need for this topic in the first place as you should have accepted the warn and moved on like everyone else.

 

There is nothing else to discuss in this topic, you broke the rules and were warned. You can discuss at length why you did say "f*ck you" numerous times, but there is no denying you still broke the rules. If you or any other member of the board think they can go around and say "f*ck you" to anyone they like, they will be warned. That is what this topic was about, and since we have all agreed you did warrant a warning then its case closed.

 

Someone come and lock it up.

[Raindancer]

I must admit i only read page one and some of page 6.

 

But essentially it seems to be about a warning received from staff to a member. So I will lock this up now.

 

Case closed

Court dismissed

 

[MyMothersMySister]

3) does the Super-String theory effectively combines quantum-mechanic physics with gravity?

That's the second joke in regards to quantum physics I've read on the forums today. Frightening.