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Quadropheniac90

Charity

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Quadropheniac90

OK, I'm gonna get alot of angry replies here, I think, but f*ck that. Why do we give money to Africa?

 

1. We've been giving money for like over 30 years now? Sure, there's some progress in things, but in the speed this is going, I don't see the 'problem' being solved for another 300 years.

 

2. Why would you give money? Why do we need to take care of these people, how are their problems ours? It's bullsh*t.

 

"Oh, but all those people in Africa, we have to help them!"

"Why?"

"It's inhuman not to do so!"

"Why?"

 

I don't see the point in being f*cking social, the only people I care about is me, and my friends and family.

 

And for example donating to organizations which do research for cancer, hepatitis, etc. The only reason I'll give money to those, is because I could get those diseases myself, and I want to get good healthcare and medicines if I do. Saying it's inhuman to not give money because of the other sick people is like someone on the other side of the world dies, and two days later you get angry letters for not going to the funeral. Of course this is a random person I'm talking about here.

 

Why does charity make people feel good, you're wasting your money on something that's probably not worth it. Sure, disease funds, and the tsunami are good ways to spend your money, but in my eyes only because those things can happen to you too. The tsunami damage, material damage, can be repaired with money, Africa can't, it's uncurable. All those people keep f*cking like rabbits too, there's no use.

 

OK, discuss this, and please, no angry posts, it's my opinion, I respect yours, or not, I don't know. biggrin.gif The post seems a little untidy, but I made my point.

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ilikensrs

I personally feel that giving money to charitable causes in Africa is the right thing to do. With the right money being given in the right way we'll be able to help attain a stable and sustainable economy, which in turn can help the rest of the world grow. So in one sense it does help you, albeit in a very minor way and only in the long term and even then only if everything pans out the way it should. Still, the problem is certainly not "uncurab;e" as you suggest.

There is also a heck of a lot of AIDS research being done over there afaik. Last I heard, there was an african dude who presented immunity to the virus, which if true is big news. You may not be personally planning to get HIV, but I doubt that most people who have been infected did.

What I don't agree with is the government donating my money without my consent, but that's the subject of another debate for another time.

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Quadropheniac90

Sure, they do not want HIV, but that doesn't matter, they're still causing it. And if this great news was true, I'm sure we'd have heard about it by now.

 

As you said, there's very little in it for me, if the problem gets solved, and little is not enough to make me donate my money to Africa, because I'm not spending money on something from which might profit in 30 years.

 

Also, alot of people and celebrities go there, and say: "Now I've seen this, I'm telling you, you should donate." f*ck off, don't go there, I can tell you now, if I go there long enough it makes me want to donate too... dozingoff.gif

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Guybrush Threepwood

I'm all for charities and donating. By all means, I don't donate a lot, but I do donate to most legit charities.

Most organizations can prove and will show what they do with the money, building water wells, setting up the local economy, stuff like that. And I support that, I feel we as a world can at least give a little handout every now and again to ALL causes.

As a world we can take a bit of responsibility in helping out those less fortunate, even if that is by just dumping some of your cash on an organization.

And now tell me in all honesty, are you that strapped for cash?

 

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Quadropheniac90

Oh, I'm not being greedy, I just think donating is useless, except for disease funds...

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Guybrush Threepwood

How is donating cash for building a water well useless? They'll have a bigger chance at living DISEASE-FREE with a good source for water.

I mean, everybody's allowed to be selective in their charities. But your reasoning seems flawed at best.

A fundemental issue in combating disease is raising living standards to where an outbreak of say diphtheria. One of the key notes in raising this standard is providing clean water. I can make a huge list of diseases you can prevent simply by using clean water (in both drinking, preparing food, and even washing your clothes).

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Quadropheniac90

OK, clean water, sure, but where do we get ALL this water from? And second, why would we give them clean water, why would we go to the hassle. I'm not saying I wouldn't give cash if it could be solved easily, but it just can't, clean water is not solving all problems in Africa. But why donate? confused.gif

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ilikensrs
Oh, I'm not being greedy, I just think donating is useless, except for disease funds...

By helping to create a self-sustaining economy we can enable the africans to take care of their own disease issues down the road.

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Quadropheniac90

What makes you think they'll be able to take care of themselves when you help them? We've helped them for a long time now, I don't see any initiatives coming from them, excpet for a waterpump of €20,- a piece, which is pretty expensive, Africa's BIG.

 

I'm all for free trade, trading is now unfair for Africa...

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B Rob
When it comes to donating Im not a big fan because like others have said you don't know exactly how and where your money will be used and if it will make a difference. I am all for Community Service though, serving the poor or picking up trash, stuff like that. When doing community service you know you are actually making a difference and it makes you feel good inside.

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jizzyman
What makes you think they'll be able to take care of themselves when you help them? We've helped them for a long time now, I don't see any initiatives coming from them, excpet for a waterpump of €20,- a piece, which is pretty expensive, Africa's BIG.

 

I'm all for free trade, trading is now unfair for Africa...

Like you said, Africa is really BIG. The places you are giving money to (or not giving money to in your case) are exactly the places where these worrying diseases you speak about originate and spread, if they manage to make some decent infrastructure with our help, they will be much better off, and we don't have to worry about spending millions of dollars for mass vaccinations.

 

Africa is very curable.

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Quadropheniac90

Dream on, it's too far down the drain to be 'saved'. But that's my opinion.

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Pure

why do we help africa? because its OUR fault its like that! i thought it was obvious...

 

africa has diamonds, oil, boxite, and tons of other valuable stuff but it is still retardly poor. why? becauase jerk off countries like the usa, england, and france are raping it for all its worth.

 

bp oil is everywhere in africa making the people sick with the toxic sh*t they pump into the air to sell oil that isnt even on their land, they can go back to merry f*ckin england in my opinion.

 

its like havin an apple tree in your yard and your like, "when the apples get ripe im going to sell em." then your neighbor comes over and picks your apples and sells them and gives you nothing! and its not like he bought your tree or your land, he just took the apples and he keeps doing it.

 

africa is the same. along time ago england, france, and italy went to africa and started taking sh*t. england went as far as india and tried to start colonies there. its just like america, where we killed all the indians or took and claimed land that already belonged to someone. people went into africa and started taking from the blacks there even though they already had it under control. you cant say "they were savages" or "simple people". because shaka zulu and tribes like the bantu prove the opposite. they had their own economy, and boundries b4 european morons came along.

 

thats why there are so many civil wars. tribes that never got along were forced to live together when england tried to assimilate them into their culture. its like taking a two gang members and putting them together in the same house. a filthy nation dirty east member in the house with a mara salvatrucha or putting a blood and crip in the same house. IT WONT WORK

 

all the richer companies and countries are obligated to take care of something they single handly f*cked up.

 

which makes the situation even more great is that world super powers still think they are entitled to everything on that continent. hence the continuous rapage of african people and their economy.

 

we have been giving money for 30years and your mad? we have been exploiting them for hundreds of years! the small amount of money we give them is nothing compared to the sh*t we make them go through everyday and all the time. i only have to name slavery to prove my point. if u want to argue that along time ago in mesopatamia and stuff and ancient rome slaves were a part of life and didnt matter if your black or white well then your right. but u have to admit that if america had massive amounts of diamond mines like africa, we would be even richer and we would be the only owners.

 

so thats why the united states and other countries are tryin to "fix" africa. because everyone knows americans and europeans are hypocritical assholes. i was born in montego bay and moved to america when i was really young, but it amazes me how people with so much can still be so ignorant, stupid, and greedy. they watch a movie and think they can make an intelligent arguement, they read a book on oprahs reading list and think they are a world class critic, the sh*t simply depresses me that people are so f*ckin stupid.

 

im done. lol

Edited by Pure

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Jack_Knife
And for example donating to organizations which do research for cancer, hepatitis, etc. The only reason I'll give money to those, is because I could get those diseases myself, and I want to get good healthcare and medicines if I do.

It's not charity if you're only donating money to hopefully help yourself furthur down the line.

 

The point of donating money to charities is that you're helping people less fortunate than you. You're not supposed to get anything out of it at all, except the satisfaction of knowing you're helping (albeit only a little).

 

I know this topic is partly about Africa, and whether or not donated money actually makes a difference, but I don't think you fully understand the point of charity. If you're not happy to donate money to a cause that won't help you out personally, then don't do it. But realise that some people are happy to give away their money to others less fortunate than them, and expect absolutely nothing in return.

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StaticBeing

I think Pure hit the topic head on.

 

Western countries did it. And now we are trying to maintain stable countries so we can continue to use them for what's under their land.

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Snares

I was watching the news a few nights back, and one of the headlines was about Live 8. The report pretty much shared my views. A year on from the event, world leader's haven't lived up to their promises. Blair constantly insists that he's working everyday on the matter. I don't know abotu Bush, but I can pretty much assume that he talked on the same lines. Charity is never pointless or worthless, it does help people, but it doesn't make a big enough dent in the tooth. If Africa is to be "cured" or "saved", these organisation's need backing of the government's in the Western world. Peace.

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facugaich

I'd like to say I support everything that Pure just said. Capitalism is what has ruined periferal countries to the bone, and I'm glad at least some ppl realised that and try to help (ok maybe some don't look at it like that but help still).

 

On the other hand, I don't really know if the actual organizations have enough income/influence to make a difference, plus I have this feeling that they are just a cover up invented by the same greedy rich ppl that caused the problem in the first place. ph34r.gif

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Quadropheniac90

It's a collective thought it's OUR fault it's f*cked up. I sure didn't do nothing to make Africa this way, so it's not my f*cking fault, that's ridiculous. confused.gif And we're sure not obliged to help them because we f*cked up. If you f*ck something up, do you always fix it?

 

@StaticBeing: I understand people want to do charity, and OK, what I do is not called charity, but I don't see the point in doing something to help people if it doesn't help them very much.

 

@Snares: Yeah, if the governments help, it would help much more, but they don't help, why would they? They're not obliged to help. I'm not saying I don't want to help Africa because I hate them or summin but I'm not reponible for the sh*t there, so I don't see why I hve to pay for 'em. confused.gif

 

EDIT: @Last poster: How did capitalism ruin poor countries? You're clearly a communist, and I'm a capitalist. We both have different visions on things, you didn't explain why captialism ruined poor countries? dozingoff.gif

Edited by teun.steenbekkers

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Snares

You say it as if you have a gun pointed at your head by an Oxfam member demanding your money. Charity is voluntary, you don't have to help if you don't want to. As for the government's, as pointed out numerous times in the topic, it's their fault Africa is the way it is, and they owe it to the people fo the continent to help them.

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Quadropheniac90

Why? There's no law that says so, it's natural. Organisms find ways to improve there lives, or not make it worse. I'm sure that if organisms could gain on short term, they'd help organisms lower in the foodchain. It's all nature, but that's me. And I'm not saying I have to help them, but some people obviously think 'we', the rich countries, should help.

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facugaich

 

We both have different visions on things, you didn't explain why captialism ruined poor countries? dozingoff.gif

Yeah, well, I think Pure explained it really well for me. And, as he said, I thought it was obvious.

 

 

Why? There's no law that says so.

You got the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. It establishes equality of opportunities for every human being. Most Democratical-liberal countries have made agreements to respect it. e.g. The European Convention on Human Rights, the American one, etc. I've just looked in wikipedia, and the Netherlands are part of the European Parliament, which 'solemnly proclaimed' Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union. Although:

 

 

As it stands, the Charter is not a treaty, constitutional, or legal document, and has the ambiguous value of a 'solemn proclamation' by three of the Union's most important institutions. Its text is mainly in harmony with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the European Convention on Human Rights and therefore can be taken as a confirmation (by the Council, Commission, and Parliament) of the pre-existing rights contained therein.

At least that's something.

 

And I also think fixing, or trying to, something you messed up is based on Responsibility (sp?) which relies on Rationality, an ideology widely accepted as "the way to do things right" by many countries, mostly democratical ones.

 

PS:Sorry for the bad english. Oh, and I ain't no commie homie Ok, that was lame

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Guybrush Threepwood
Yeah, if the governments help, it would help much more, but they don't help, why would they?

This shows how little you know about all of this, and I'm here to officially stomp your ignorant ass.

I quote:

 

The European Union is one of the largest contributers to third world development in the world. Together the members of the European Union contribute 55% of ALL official International help.

 

(translated from Dutch, don't hold me to grammatical nonsense). The point stands, the governments DO give, and not just a little either.

The OESO countries (30 of the world's wealthiest countries) gave a total of 106,5 BILLION dollars to aid third world countries.

 

So I hereby hand you your foot back into your mouth and ask you to keep it there so you can refrain from spewing more nonsense.

 

Let's face it, you came here to be controversial and defend your point on why YOU shouldn't give to charity. We've given enough reasons why you should, but still you cling to your own beliefs. And that's exactly where this will end, your beliefs will stay your own, and you will not contribute to anything you don't want.

That's all good and fine, but don't come in here and put down blatant lies.

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Quadropheniac90

Getting offensive? confused.gif I know they help, but it doesn't really HELP them, now does it?

 

And after seeing some of the decisions the EU made, for exampe: What kind of yoghurt can be called yoghurt or not, I don't really think I should take them serious, they're just a bunch of democrats. And I'm not really democratic, there's always alot of people not represented by a democratic chosen government. I never chose for the EU to help those countries, I never agreed with it, so I do not have to help them. But some people claim I do have to do so, which is just not true. And because Africa isn't really getting better, even though people try helping them, yes, try, because if you try to help, and it doesn't work, it's not helping. If everything could be solved easily, I'd help out. But I see no reason in trying to help if it doesn't really help. And the governments don't do enough to help, and I don't see them doing that anytime soon, so it cannot be solved easily.

 

Now I might have chosen the wrong words to make my point earlier, that doesn't make me ignorant. Thank you.

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Guybrush Threepwood
But I see no reason in trying to help if it doesn't really help. And the governments don't do enough to help, and I don't see them doing that anytime soon, so it cannot be solved easily.

BASED ON WHAT?!

Seriously, maybe caps helps. You provide again and again BASELESS ARGUEMENTS. When will you show me the statistics that it doesn't help?

When can you provide me with actual data that shows Africa is still in decline?

Ignorance is slapping you in the face with a five-pound salmon and you're denying it.

Seriously dude, come up with an actual arguement and back it up with FACTS, because now you're just saying stuff that doesn't hold any grounds whatso-ever.

And yes, I'm getting offensive because D&D is a place where, unlike gen. chat, there is no place for baseless arguements.

 

So once again: facts, figures, statistics.

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Quadropheniac90

It's a fact that after all these years of charity for Africa it is still the poorest continent on Earth, it has alot of diseases like AIDS because people don't do birth control. You can see that everywhere.

 

EDIT: Source: World Bank; Overseas Development Council, Washington.

 

 

Sub-Saharan Africa’s population of 362 million is expected to double in the next 25 years. Meanwhile agricultural production is in decline and expensive food imports are on the increase. The result, predicted by the UN Food and Agriculture Organisation (FAQ), is that Africa will provide for only half its food needs by the year 2020.

 

user posted image

 

user posted image

 

So, for one, they won't be easily fed anytime soon.

 

 

The gap between what is earned and what is spent is covered by borrowing. Paying back interest on these debts becomes yet another drain on scarce foreign exchange. Pressure grows to increase exports in order to meet debt repayments. When this fails more borrowing follows, and so the debt spiral takes another upward turn.

 

user posted image

 

That's two, they keep borrowing, adding interest costs. Even if they get loads of money, they'd have to pay all the debts first.

 

Third, the money there is is often spent on military, not on citizens' basic desires.

Edited by teun.steenbekkers

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Saggy
Third, the money there is is often spent on military, not on citizens' basic desires.

Perhaps that's due to the fact that if they did not have sufficient military funds, their neihboring country would invade them, and slaughter or enslave most of their population.

 

You came in here with a half-baked thought of "charity doesn't really help", which switched to, "charity doesn't help that much," to, "charity helps, but now they're going to owe money". I don't care if you're too callous and incompassionate to not donate a small amount of money to help someone, but you could at least make a decent argument as to why those of us who have a little compassion shouldn't donate money to these people.

 

I'll help you out

 

A lot of the money, food, water, etc. that is donated in Africa, is intercepted by warlords who use it for more conquest in the region. This has been a common problem, and not a rectified one. Even if the money that is donated to a charity makes it to Africa, it might not reach the people that it was intended to reach.

 

Africa has a HUGE problem on its hands. If you don't feel that donating a very little amount to help a very little amount is right, then dont' f*cking do it. Some of us, on the other hand, would like to help these people, in whatever little way we can.

 

It's nice that you don't give a f*ck about Africa's well-being, but you really haven't presented any form of argument that tells me why I shouldn't. It may not have even occured to you, either, but perhaps if the problems in Africa went unchecked, they'd fester, and then become a problem in your neck of the woods.

 

Doing something to help, no matter how little it is, will always work out better than leaving a problem unchecked. Simply because it is going to take a long time, or because it doesn't help that much, doesn't mean it's not worth it. Tell me where your quality of life has suvered significantly, because our governments' donations to Africa. And when you think of your quality of life, remind yourself... You have water to drink that isn't infested with parasites, you have public education on birth control, you don't have warlords stealing your rescrouces and killing your people. You have the very basics of life, that these people do not. sh*t, you have the time and luxary, to be able to post a sh*tty topic on the internet, complaining about something you're ignorant to, instead of struggling each and every day, just to eat food that's probably going to make you sick. sh*t, even the lowest facet of my society, even the dirtiest scraggly bum, can get a good meal in a f*cking soup kitchen, and clean water out of a park water-foutain.

 

Honestly, what good will not donating do?

 

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Quadropheniac90

I have said the whole time I didn't care if people donated, I'm not saying you shouldn't, I'm just saying, if it only helps so little, why bother to donate? It's not leaving the problem unchecked, the fact that I made this topic shows I thought of the problems. I understand I should have been more clear and have arguments first, but I only stated my opinion without arguments. Sorry for that. Thanks Sagacious for doing the research I should have done before starting the topic. I understand my mistakes now.

 

But if it were only the Africans having a bad life, I knew that, that's no news. I feel sorry for them, but I do not feel the need to help them. You can do as you please of course, I just made this topic to discuss the use of donating, and you all made your points and did research. I should've done that too. Someone can lock this now. smile.gif

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StaticBeing

I'll play devils advocate.

 

And with that said, the REAL question is:

 

If we (USA, England, France etc.), were as poor as they are, and they were as well off as we are now. Would they help us? dontgetit.gif

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Snares

But see here's the thing. America, Scotland, England, France and the like aren't are not in role-reversal with Africa, so how could you sceptisise them not helping us? You can't base helping someone/thing on an argument like that.

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Guybrush Threepwood
But see here's the thing. America, Scotland, England, France and the like aren't are not in role-reversal with Africa, so how could you sceptisise them not helping us? You can't base helping someone/thing on an argument like that.

Even though your wording is somewhat awkward, it's true.

Role-reversal works maybe on small scale.

But you can't predict sociological, political and economical impact if everything was the other way around. It's just impossible on such a huge scale.

You could say "no, they wouldn't.". And I'd have no way to counter it. Just like when you would say "yes, they would.".

C'est tres impossible.*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*pardon my French.

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