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Svip

A 1100km long wall to protect the USA from Mexico?

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Svip

I don't know if you have heard the news, but it seems that the American Congress is talking about building a 1100km long wall, and perhaps meters high, long the Mexican-American border.

 

Why? Because 75% of the American population feels that the illegal immigrants that comes into the US from Mexico is the nation's biggest issue. And now the politicans has come up with an idea; let's do it like the Soviet and Isreal does it: Build a wall!

 

Exactly, the Mexican government has already refered to the wall (or "El Muro" as it is called in Mexico) as being similar to the Berlin-wall and the wall Isreal has built against Palestine.

 

According to facts, 1500 illegal immigrants cross the Mexican-American border every day, and about 4-5 million people already live illegal in the US.

 

But my question here is; will a wall really help? I have read that some also suggests a "vitual wall", which is simply sensors and cameras (and the like).

 

Perhaps, some will not try - but I think it is likely that some come up with methods on how to do it anyway. And wouldn't it bring worse tiddings with the Mexican government? And doesn't it look like bad PR for the rest of the world? Europe wasn't glad when the Isreali government sat up the wall, nor were they happy when the Soviet did it in Berlin.

 

I don't think Europe likes walls for all it knows. But also, will the wall even help to do the purpose it is claimed to prevent?

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K^2

Great wall of China would still be longer. They need to review the plan, and make it at least 4k miles long.

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SWEETSAPRIK

Well of course Mexico would have a problem with it, they've been known to encourage their citizens to illegally enter our country. So I have a hard time taking their opinion on this matter seriously. Didn't some part of their government even release a pamphlet on how to best sneak across our border, or am I confusing that with some non-government entity?

 

Meh, I think the very idea of building a wall is funny. I've heard talk of a wall for years (mostly from politicians in border states), but I've never seen anyone take it very seriously. Could someone post a link to something that shows they're actually thinking about this?

 

Personally I'm for making it relatively easy to enter legally, and relatively impossible to enter illegally, but I doubt either will happen.

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The Phantom Menace

As a non-American and a non-Mexican I am of course, neutral on the decision to create a wall. In the long run it will help with the stoppage of drugs being imported into the United States and will also act as a deterrent for illegal immigrants trying to get into the country. According to the link that I'm about to post, the seperation barrier or wall, has already been built and they are planning on expanding the barrier so it covers the whole of the US-Mexico border. At present it only covers parts of the border so some illegal aliens do manage to get through. The barrier has already had success because immigrants are forced to cross more difficult terrain such as the desert, mountains and other such terrain to get to their dream destination. So in a way it acts like a deterrent to any potential immigrants thinking of getting into the United States.

 

I must admit that I too laughed when I first heard about it, but in some circumstances it does actually make sense. Of course there will be opposition from the Mexican government, I would think any government in the world would react in the same way. Of course, I know the Government of Mexico can be a bit "dodgy" at times, watching the news all the time has taught me that much about the Mexican Government.

 

Oh and here is the link, just for you Sweets. smile.gif

 

Link.

 

If I remember rightly, the most recent proposal can be found in the "References" section at the bottom of the page.

Edited by The Phantom Menace

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Rown

Rown rampage_ani.gif

Edited by Rown

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Mercie

If the government really wanted to stop illegal immigration, they would arm the Border Patrol. They need to make crossing the border not worth the possible life in the U.S. Extreme, maybe, but at least do it right.

 

As for the wall, allready there are tunnels under it and people scaling it... And any who are caught get flown by U.S. jets to their hometowns on U.S. tax dollars... ONly to leave them ready to embark again tounge.gif

 

"Do not cross the border on penalty of death." Is there a better way to get them to not want to come?

 

catspider.gif

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gta_player5

I believe they do arm the border patrol. And recently I've seen ads for the border patrol on tv, maybe they need more patrolmen or something like that. Even though I think that the amount of illegal immigrants is far to high, I think building a wall is a bit to drastic. Possibly tighter security, and more gaurds.

-GTAP-

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Mercie
I believe they do arm the border patrol. And recently I've seen ads for the border patrol on tv, maybe they need more patrolmen or something like that. Even though I think that the amount of illegal immigrants is far to high, I think building a wall is a bit to drastic. Possibly tighter security, and more gaurds.
-GTAP-

With the government and society the way it is right now, any boder patrolmen would get sued left and right if he shot an illegal immigrant. Liberals, Human Rights Activists, people who want the Mexican vote... All are againts the whole border patrol to begin with, imagine if the border patrol works like it should... A lot of people would get pissssssed.

 

I'm still for 50 caliber guns on the back of pickups which drive along the border. You would need one poor life to want to risk that much. Or, they could just be legal immigrants...

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SWEETSAPRIK

Oh and here is the link, just for you Sweets. smile.gif

Thanks for that. smile.gif

 

Jesus. With the comparisons to the Berlin wall, and that Israeli one I had actually pictured something made of concrete. I don't know, something in any way formidable. From the way that page reads, it seems as if his plan is just to add more of the useless fencing they already use. Maybe with some motion sensors or cameras here and there, but they use those already. How any country could actually have a problem with their neighbor putting up 15 feet of sheet metal is beyond me. Why they think their opinion would matter makes even less sense.

 

If it were the other way around and they wanted to put up a fence on their side of the border and we didn't want them to I doubt our opinions would matter to them, and they shouldn't. As long as they put the fencing up on their side it wouldn't be any of our business. They are within their rights to protect their country's borders, same goes for any country. The fact that they just don't want us to make it more difficult for their citizens to break our law would be amusing if it wasn't so offensive. confused.gif

 

I mean an uproar over a large concrete wall I could almost understand, but sheet metal? It's little more than an eyesore anyway.

 

Some of the stats on the page the wiki article leads to almost make it sound like a good idea, as well as making it seem as if it's had an impact in the past.

 

The San Diego Border Fence works:

 

    * Illegal alien apprehensions along the fenced region were reduced from over 202,000 in 1992 to approximately 9,000 in 2004.  Further, it is estimated that the apprehensions vs. attempts ratio increased to over 90%;

 

    * Following the establishment of the San Diego Border Fence, crime rates in San Diego have fallen dramatically.  According to the FBI Crime Index, crime in San Diego County dropped 47.3% between 1989 to 2000;

 

    * Vehicle drive-throughs in the region have fallen from between 6 to 10 per day before the construction of border infrastructure to only four drive-throughs in 2004, all of which were isolated in locations where secondary fencing is incomplete;

 

    * The fence has forced drug smugglers, who once crossed the San Diego border without contest, to focus their efforts of access through America’s ports of entry, significantly increasing the likelihood of discovery and seizure of illegal narcotics entering the U.S.

Still, I have a hard time believing that any of those stats are because of the fencing alone, and not due to other factors. Saying that the drop in the crime rate in San Diego is due to less illegal immigrants coming here and commiting crimes seems like a scare tactic.

 

Saying that the fences makes the smugglers move on to other points of entry is a joke. With all the stories I've read about people building tunnels, and videos I've seen with people bending back a bit of the fencing and walking right through, I can't believe that more sheet metal will have much effect.

 

To say that adding more manned legal entry points will make it harder for them to cross illegally is also amusing. Example.

 

My only real problem with putting up that much fencing is the fact that it's almost completely useless, and not worth the money, time, or effort.

 

I would still like to see it be easier to enter the country legally, but I find it hard to have sympathy for those that enter illegally.

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Demarest
Why? Because 75% of the American population feels that the illegal immigrants that comes into the US from Mexico is the nation's biggest issue.

Acknowledging and even addressing something does not denote that it is of highest regard. As creatures, we are capable of marshalling multiples senses throughout the day. As a nation, we have many levels of government, each having dozens of commitees, etc. If you're going to pass something off as factual, it should be factual.

 

 

With the government and society the way it is right now, any boder patrolmen would get sued left and right if he shot an illegal immigrant. Liberals, Human Rights Activists, people who want the Mexican vote...

She's right. I don't even think it's just America either. It seems the general air everywhere is that we must criticize everyone and everything. Soft leads to being taken advantage of. If it's being taken advantage of, stiffen up. How many fatalities do you suppose it would take before the allure lost its glean?

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just another thug
Our economy (America) would die without illegal immigrants. No American will want to take the wages and labor that many illegal immigrants take. We've become dependent.

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millermagic

We need the illegal immigrants but they can pose a threat. So I guess I'm for it.

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Y_Less

Not being from either of the countries in question I am an outsider, however we do have an immigration problem here too. If they are illegal immigrants, they are illegal and breaking the law, simple as. They don't pay taxes thus don't contribute anything to the economy really (maybe a bit through crappy jobs, but there are homeless and other legal citizens without jobs they could be given to who actually deserve it.

 

Currently if they are caught (as far as I can tell) they are dealt with and either arrested or deported (it's worse in England where of they are caught they have all sorts of stupid rights and things and up to 3 appeals to try legally be allowed into the country (by which point they've been living here years and often just disappear after they've been denied again, thus don't leave anyway)). Anyway, all that costs lots of money, especially if, as was said earlier, they are being jetted back to their own country, thus, harsh as it seems, Mercies way seems like the best way. Bullets are cheap and will stop them causing a problem outright.

 

As for the suing thing, they (the patrols) should have nohing to worry about, if they (the immigrants) are illegal they are not citizens of the country thus should not be covered by the rights of it.

 

I know it seems a bit drastic, but they need to be stopped and dissuaded, alot of immigrants in this country seem to live better than I do as a student, we get in debts of thousands for living while they are GIVEN more than we are loaned.

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Lone Soldier D

Isn’t the problem that tax goes to things that should stop other things just because the government (and uptight right-wingers) tries to censure the people and control them??? If they get a job and pay tax, there should not be anything to argue about, but there are some raciest and nationalistic people that think that the problem of society is the colure of the skin, which is total bullsh*t. If you are lazy and don't take responsibility then that is the problem. Gotherdamnunge, I get so irritated of popularity problem solutions. To sum it up: there is jobs that is from the government that is paid by tax, and there is more people that use the things that the government maintain (roads, parks, schools, hospitals and police), and when the number of citizens are increased, the maintenance must be done in a more frequent period, which means that the tax must go up (sadly), but then there is those who don't see that and thinks that they should get a free ride for the rest of there life’s, and then there is a problem which some tries to solve whit genocide (as Hitler and other nationalist does) and then you are f*cked. SO PLEASE, GET A JOB PAY TAX AND DO SOMETHING CREATIV!!!

 

 

Edited by Lone Soldier D

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The Truth7
I believe they do arm the border patrol. And recently I've seen ads for the border patrol on tv, maybe they need more patrolmen or something like that. Even though I think that the amount of illegal immigrants is far to high, I think building a wall is a bit to drastic. Possibly tighter security, and more gaurds.
-GTAP-

With the government and society the way it is right now, any boder patrolmen would get sued left and right if he shot an illegal immigrant. Liberals, Human Rights Activists, people who want the Mexican vote... All are againts the whole border patrol to begin with, imagine if the border patrol works like it should... A lot of people would get pissssssed.

 

I'm still for 50 caliber guns on the back of pickups which drive along the border. You would need one poor life to want to risk that much. Or, they could just be legal immigrants...

three cheers for ignorant racism?

 

I'm a Texan, and I'm white. I know that illegal immigrants are using our health care services and our educational system.

 

But, unlike many of my fellow Texans, I approve of this. And I certainly don't see a WALL or FULL TIME BORDER TASK FORCE as the solution.

 

Why?

 

Well, rooted in logic and fact, it'd cost a HELL of a lot more to station full time border guards and build a wall along the border. Much more than the costs of letting illegal immigrants use our health care and education. Which you know, helps out humanity. On the other hand, spending cash on walls and guns tends to not help out humanity, unless we're stopping Hitler or something.

 

Secondly, it's arrogant to say that certain ethnicities or nationalities should be denied health care or education because these people illegally entered the country. What makes the immigration of these Mexicans illegal is our laws. Immigration is not innately bad. We are, in fact, a nation of immigrants. We take in thousands upon thousands of European and Asian immigrants every year, no complaints. We think these people have something to offer to our society. And they do. We've seen that through our history as a nation. We're a cultural melting pot.

 

But racism and fear arises on the Mexican question. Why is a Mexican alien any less able to aid our society? Perhaps he has less skills. But he can contribute to our economy. He's no less entitled to have basic health care or use our roads. There's plenty of Europeans and Asians that move here that are as unskilled as the Mexican immigrant. But they learn. It's capitalism. They obtain the skills. And their children, and their children's children, they get education. They get opportunity. They are no less members of this country than you or I. The other thing white Americans are afraid of is job security. More people, a set amount of jobs--- white guy loses the job. But if you look over the centuries, we've had millions of immigrants come to the country, and we've had millions of racists oppose this for job security reasons. Some of these white guys lost their jobs, but the influx of workers expanded the economy and created new jobs and opportunities through all these years. And that's how we had the rise of industry and technological advancement.

 

Building a wall is an irrational waste of money. We ought to embrace these Mexicans dissatisfied with their home country. They can contribute to our nation, just like other immigrants before them. It's these immigrants that have diversified our culture and opinion, expanded the workforce, and made America what it is today. Look at the immigration question rationally and by using history, and I don't think you can honestly agree that we need a full time border security task force and a giant wall.

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millermagic

I really don't like how they get to use our healthcare and education system. Why? They get healthcare for free and would get to go to college for free. My family can not afford healthcare and we can not afford the college tuition for next year and the government thinks we are too rich for financial aid. I think we should start treating our citizens better before treating illegal immigrants better.

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The Truth7

i'm all for universal healthcare and free college. the rich could definitely spare some cash for it. you don't have to be anti-immigration to get healthcare, you know?

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SWEETSAPRIK

i'm all for universal healthcare and free college. the rich could definitely spare some cash for it. you don't have to be anti-immigration to get healthcare, you know?

Yeah, but the rich aren't the only ones paying for it. There are people with inadequate healthcare who can't afford to send their kids to college that also happen to pay taxes.

 

The main job of any government isn't to help the entire world, it's to protect and care for it's own citizens. Everything else is secondary. I have no problem with helping people that aren't US citizens, but not at the cost of helping those that are. The idea of giving healthcare or education to people that can't afford it isn't a bad one. Helping people is a good thing, even people that live somewhere else. However, rewarding those that break the law by giving them what you are denying those that don't is a bad idea.

 

It's not "arrogant to say that certain ethnicities or nationalities should be denied health care or education because these people illegally entered the country." What's arrogant is spending some people's tax dollars on other people that haven't paid taxes, and are here illegally, while at the same time denying the ones who aren't breaking the law, and are paying for said services in the first place.

 

What's really arrogant is how some people say that anyone who is on the other side of this issue is anti-immigration, or racist. There's a big difference between being anti-immigration, and just being against illegal immigration. I'd be happy to see laws changed to make it easier for more people to come here legally. Legally being the operative word, but until they change the law they shouldn't be rewarding those that break it. The government shouldn't be giving any services to illegal immigrants that aren't completely needed. Emergency medical treatment and transportation home is one thing, education that some of our own citizens can't afford is something else. I happen to be for legal immigration, and against illegal immigration. I'm for helping legal immigrants, and against helping illegal immigrants (excluding necessities of course.) And just because I'm against illegal immigration doesn't mean I think that this stupid fence is a good idea, I don't.

 

"What makes the immigration of these Mexicans illegal is our laws." is a pretty obvious statement. What makes anything illegal here are our laws. If there aren't laws against something it isn't illegal, again, that's pretty obvious.

Edited by SWEETSAPRIK

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millermagic

Exactly. They should not be allowed to come over here and get stuff for free that we have to pay for.

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Reincarnated
The day they build a wall, is the day that the world stage will start to take actions against the US.

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StaticBeing
I believe they do arm the border patrol. And recently I've seen ads for the border patrol on tv, maybe they need more patrolmen or something like that. Even though I think that the amount of illegal immigrants is far to high, I think building a wall is a bit to drastic. Possibly tighter security, and more gaurds.
-GTAP-

With the government and society the way it is right now, any boder patrolmen would get sued left and right if he shot an illegal immigrant. Liberals, Human Rights Activists, people who want the Mexican vote... All are againts the whole border patrol to begin with, imagine if the border patrol works like it should... A lot of people would get pissssssed.

 

I'm still for 50 caliber guns on the back of pickups which drive along the border. You would need one poor life to want to risk that much. Or, they could just be legal immigrants...

 

 

 

Well, rooted in logic and fact, it'd cost a HELL of a lot more to station full time border guards and build a wall along the border. Much more than the costs of letting illegal immigrants use our health care and education. Which you know, helps out humanity. On the other hand, spending cash on walls and guns tends to not help out humanity, unless we're stopping Hitler or something.

 

 

 

Building a wall is an irrational waste of money.

I just wanted to point out that building the aforementioned wall would cost 10 billion dollars. Which, ironically enough, is what our military is spending in 2 weeks over in Iraq.

 

So, no, the wall isn't as economically crippling as the war is. bored.gif

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Vito Leone
We need the illegal immigrants but they can pose a threat. So I guess I'm for it.

If you think that all illegal immigrants are terrorists, please, go f*ck yourself. No, really. If that was it, then when you entered their country YOU would be considered a danger to them.

 

Bush sucks, he's also going to force immigrants to gtfo the country every 6 months to authorize them to live in the USA. Of course, you gotta be cautious after 9-11, but goddamn. This country is starting to suck. I had a friend here from Brazil that was deported, and lost his green-card because of one measly gram of marijuana. Come on thats complete bullsh*t.

 

 

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StaticBeing
We need the illegal immigrants but they can pose a threat. So I guess I'm for it.

If you think that all illegal immigrants are terrorists, please, go f*ck yourself. No, really. If that was it, then when you entered their country YOU would be considered a danger to them.

 

Bush sucks, he's also going to force immigrants to gtfo the country every 6 months to authorize them to live in the USA. Of course, you gotta be cautious after 9-11, but goddamn. This country is starting to suck. I had a friend here from Brazil that was deported, and lost his green-card because of one measly gram of marijuana. Come on thats complete bullsh*t.

It's bullsh*t because we allowed him here, he broke a substance law, than he got sent home? Maybe he shouldn't of been breaking the law than? rolleyes.gif

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Vito Leone
We need the illegal immigrants but they can pose a threat. So I guess I'm for it.

If you think that all illegal immigrants are terrorists, please, go f*ck yourself. No, really. If that was it, then when you entered their country YOU would be considered a danger to them.

 

Bush sucks, he's also going to force immigrants to gtfo the country every 6 months to authorize them to live in the USA. Of course, you gotta be cautious after 9-11, but goddamn. This country is starting to suck. I had a friend here from Brazil that was deported, and lost his green-card because of one measly gram of marijuana. Come on thats complete bullsh*t.

It's bullsh*t because we allowed him here, he broke a substance law, than he got sent home? Maybe he shouldn't of been breaking the law than? rolleyes.gif

Imagine you in Brazil, you get caught with on gram of pot and is deported. Doubt you aint gonna get mad.

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Rown

Rown rampage_ani.gif

Edited by Rown

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E.A.B.

No one in here has any right to take away the opportunities that the imigrants want to give to their children.

 

that's just some, of course. I agree about the taxes part and all of that good stuff. They don't come legally....but why.....

 

look, if it's really causing a problem, don't just try deporting them all, that's just retarded. Obviously there would be protests or..well...when you deport a million people...things happen. A wall? Hah. They'll find a way, believe me. Instead, make it easier to come to this country, legally. It takes like 10 years to come here legally.

 

Just attack the problem at the source. Stop with the walls and guards and spending all this money and attack the source. Make it easier to come here, don't know the process of it all, just know that it takes some 10 years to come here. Of course, America must stay American (whatever the hell that means since America doesn't have a definate race) so allowing too many of them would pose a threat.

 

 

 

I just wanted to point out that building the aforementioned wall would cost 10 billion dollars. Which, ironically enough, is what our military is spending in 2 weeks over in Iraq.

 

So, no, the wall isn't as economically crippling as the war is. bored.gif

 

but we're still wasting a lot of money bored.gif

 

mind you not all that money is actually being spent...or something like that.

 

 

It's bullsh*t because we allowed him here, he broke a substance law, than he got sent home? Maybe he shouldn't of been breaking the law than?

 

yes, it is bullsh*t. You get caught with weed you just get sent to jail or...whatever it is that they do to you if they catch you with weed. He gets sent back to Brazil. Treat him equally and send his ass to jail.

 

even though weed isn't even that strong of a drug compared to others.

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Tom Toole

I am mexican and I must say I find the immigration issue weird. I imagine that there are two sides.

 

Pro NAFTA, Pro Immigration -be it legal or illegal

 

and

 

Anti NAFTA, anti-Immigration.

 

On the PRO side is most of the mexican nation, which really needs the money even if nafta is unfair in many ways, and needs the money from the immigrants sending money back home even if many mexicans die and are treated terribly.

Also on the PRO side are wealthy americans who want cheap labor close to the US.

 

Against are the american "proletariat" -which still exists to some extent, also Some nationalist mexicans who are feeling the effect of american companies, many who live near the border that is "bulging" with new entries.

 

There is also something about how NAFTA and Immigration affect the War on Terror, The War on Drugs, and the War on Crime.

 

yep yep yep...

 

NAFTA is part of the attempt to defend against the future influence of China's low-cost goods influx on the market, -to open the market, increase efficiency and so on and so forth...

 

So - the way I understood it - the fence was really just used to push the subject of how to stop immigration and not a realistic goal...

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