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IV ● XxX

Atheism

Recommended Posts

Mainland Marauder
Then you're far too forgiving, MM. wink.gif

I'm generally tolerant as long as other people don't force their beliefs on my way of life...

 

Such as, you know, having their stooge government figures from the fundamentalist right forcing laws into place that pander to his electorate...not that it ever happens or anything. sigh.gif

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MadeInThe80s

You hold everyone's beliefs valid because you simply don't know, this comes off arrogant I know but with the bible I put my soul, life, faith and trust into it 100%. I don't mean to come off in this way at all, I'd like to remain humble about it but I can't consider anyone's beliefs valid if I believe they aren't true.

 

 

In the beginning, there was nothing?  Who ever said there was a beginning?  wink.gif

 

It's a matter of faith really, I believe what God has done full stop you can argue this as much as you want but first you have to grasp to concept of faith. In the beginning their was nothing stated in the bible so I believe it through faith.

 

I think this is where it breaks down ultimately between Athiests and Religious types all.

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Mainland Marauder
You hold everyone's beliefs valid because you simply don't know, this comes off arrogant I know but with the bible I put my soul, life, faith and trust into it 100%. I don't mean to come off in this way at all, I'd like to remain humble about it but I can't consider anyone's beliefs valid if I believe they aren't true.

No, I know what I believe.

 

It's just that if one's beliefs are held to be valid by that person, then to them, they are. No matter what anyone else says. My beliefs are valid to me; to you, they're most likely not worth a hill of beans. Same goes for everyone else. It's a personal matter rather than a societal one IMO; this concept unfortunately isn't shared by most people who would want to impose a certain set of beliefs on the population as a whole.

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MadeInThe80s

I don't want to impose anything, it's basically your choice to me. But I don't consider your beliefs valid. It's like saying I believe AC/DC is the best rap group ever to me.

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Mainland Marauder
I don't want to impose anything, it's basically your choice to me. But I don't consider your beliefs valid. It's like saying I believe AC/DC is the best rap group ever to me.

That's funny, considering you don't know what my beliefs are other than the fact that they don't agree with yours.

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MadeInThe80s

Well basically you dont believe in God? Or else... you wouldn't be an athiest.

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Mainland Marauder
Well basically you dont believe in God? Or else... you wouldn't be an athiest.

Did I ever say that?

 

I mean, even if I don't, or if I do, did I say whether I believe in God?

 

I think you're just filling in gaps with your presumptions.

 

Also, just because you don't believe in the God of Christianity, or even of the greater scope of the Abrahamic religions, does not automatically make one an atheist.

 

I mean, you can believe in Odin and not be an atheist. But not perhaps by your one-sided definitions.

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MadeInThe80s

Why go further with this with pointless arguements? What are you? Athiest or not?

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Mainland Marauder

 

Why go further with this with pointless arguements? What are you? Athiest or not?

Naw, I like pointless arguments too much.

 

Let's make this a semantics debate.

 

What is "God?"

 

If I believe in an intangible amalgam of the balancing effects of nature, and I call it "God," then I suppose I am not an atheist. (But if I call it "Fred," then am I an atheist?)

 

On the other hand, if I don't believe in God in the form it is presented in the Bible, then I suppose I am an atheist, at least by your standards.

Edited by Mainland Marauder

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K^2
Here is an interesting arguement against Athiests I found. http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/atheismintro.html

 

One thing I found ironic is that athiests are really when you look at it putting faith that everything came from nothing, there was no space or time yet all of this came from nothingness yet they scoff at the idea of a DESIGNER.

First of all, you really should stop just posting links to long flawed arguments. From the link you posted:

 

The first is a naturalistic interpretation, which states that the universe arose from some super universe by an "evolutionary" process. The universe is so finely tuned that this is the only  reasonable explanation for how our universe happens to be suitable for the formation of stars, planets, and life. The formation of a single universe with exactly the right combinations of laws of physics, size, etc. is so unlikely by chance as to be impossible.

This assumes formation of a single universe. Formation of infinite number of universes is just as likely. We are, of course, found in a universe that happened to be configured just right to support life. Infinitly many other universes that are not. This brings the situation back to the realm of statisticaly possible. Therefore, the entire argument chain is broken.

 

As for Atheists who believe that there can be no god, they are indeed no different from people who believe that there is one or even multiple gods. Believing any one of these things is equaly silly. One might lean twoards one thing or another, but it is absolutly impossible to prove it either way.

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MadeInThe80s

"As for Atheists who believe that there can be no god, they are indeed no different from people who believe that there is one or even multiple gods. Believing any one of these things is equaly silly. One might lean twoards one thing or another, but it is absolutly impossible to prove it either way."

 

but it's not silly to believe in an infinite number of universes based on nothing at all? wtf.

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Otter

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple-universe_theory

 

Anyhow, let's stop debating the term "atheist" because it already has a rather concrete definition.

 

Let instead discuss the sheer beauty of a multiple universe theory that works in tandem with determinism!

 

 

Or, we could discuss why, Madeinthe80's, (all the best sh*t was made in the 80's, by the way) you do cling to faith? Surely, beyond the beauty of loyalty, there may be cracks in your beliefs? Are you ever faced with doubt? And do you consider it a bad thing to study other doctrines?

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K^2

 

but it's not silly to believe in an infinite number of universes based on nothing at all? wtf.

It is. Which is why I don't actually believe in it. I just find it to be the most likely scenario. Far more likely than an omnipotent creator. And if it's most likely one, and best supported by evidence, it is the safest bet to act based on the rules of action suggested by such model.

 

 

Let instead discuss the sheer beauty of a multiple universe theory that works in tandem with determinism!

There isn't much to discuss. We have a fixed, neverchanging, wavefunction of space and time. It's various projections on the observer states generate multiple observable worlds, collectively known as many-world. The fact that storage of information by the observer requires the increase in the total number of available states, that sets the direction of time flow twoards worlds with higher entropy, and creates the illusion of time flow. That means that observer has no knowledge of the future, and views history as a time-line, and future as a tree of possibilities. That creates an illusion of free will in a fully determenistic system.

 

If somebody doesn't understand that allready, there is little hope of explaining it within the boundaries of a single thread. It requires deep understanding of classical, statistical, and quantum mechanics, which cannot be gained by reading a few pages on the forum. It requires reading of several serious texts on the aforementioned subjects. But if somebody does have some understanding of these things, and is fuzzy on some details, I might be able to help with some of it. Though, not everything, since I don't think there is anyone who isn't fuzzy on at least some of it.

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MadeInThe80s

 

Or, we could discuss why, Madeinthe80's,  (all the best sh*t was made in the 80's, by the way) you do cling to faith?  Surely, beyond the beauty of loyalty, there may be cracks in your beliefs? Are you ever faced with doubt?  And do you consider it a bad thing to study other doctrines?

I just feel it is right, I know I cant explain this rationally or anything but it's something within my soul. One thing has happened to me recently really made my faith stronger, I hadn't really picked up the bible but one night this year I picked it up because I was feeling like sh*t, read a bit of it then that night I was hit with sleep paralysis, I just think it's too freaky to be a coincidence... It was something spiritual. I shrugged it off but then I realized somehting was up when I was hit with it again! the second I begun to read the good word but this time was more scarier, I was in a dream-state but fully conscious stuck to my bed and my dad walked in except he looked totally demented and had completely gray hair which my dad doesn't have, almost like a twisted version of him. He did something totally out of character too, he started dancing in like an African ritual dance way which scared the sh*t out of me, I couldn't move or talk and was crying sooo softly hoping it would go away.

 

When the sleep paralysis started to wear off, he quickly ran out of my room and I could move again but fell right to sleep. Third time it happened again! but it was in a dream, I dreamt I took heroin and then I got paralysed in my dream and my uncle walked in and said my head was sloped onto the bed and I was crying out but I was stuck to my bed hard. So I feel that there is something definately spiritual out there having been hit with 3 sleep paralysis this year when I haven't had it before and just when I got back into Christianity and started reading the bible. So yeaah... icon14.gif

 

Oh yeah to top it off I had a terrific vision of the lord, Jesus Christ in a moment upon closing my eyes. I saw a gold glow around him as he was in the centre but the weird thing I felt from this was this enormous love and comfort which I have never felt before in my life, it was unwordly from that point on I just put my faith into Christ. I really wish to have that feeling again, it was f*cking immense.

Edited by MadeInThe80s

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Otter

Have you seen a doctor?

 

I don't mean that in a smarmy way, at all, but I'd suggest having some tests done. If you're having visions while you're awake, you're probably not running at 100%

 

And what could better reaffirm your faith than if you're given a clean bill of health?

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MadeInThe80s

I will when I get the chance but don't you think it's really more than that having been hit with sleep paralysis time and time again after getting really into the bible?

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Otter

It could be that your faith is taking advantage of a flaw in your health.

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MadeInThe80s

But having this feelng of love and comfort in that vision seriously...I don't see how this is really explainable. I feel it is something more.

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K^2

Or you might feel that it's something more because you want it to be something more.

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MadeInThe80s

It was at a time when I least expected it though, I was doing my own thing, closed my eyes then boom... Some sh*t happened. Now if I was seeking out for this thing then you might have a point but I was just minding my own. I use to be a bit of skeptic aswell, I didn't get how people could have visions or feel God but as I'm getting more and more into it I kinda understand. It's like how you have that feeling that someone is behind you, you can feel a presence without seeing then turn around and seeing ya mate there. It goes beyond verbal communication, sound, smell. It's like a sense. I think science is one of Satan's biggest tools to get people away from God.

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Mortukai

Woah.

 

I haven't posted here in a while, and I really don't care to become re-engaged with this topic (which is getting quite old, convoluted, and directionless), but I was just randomly browsing through and these last posts by MadeInThe80s caught my attention.

 

Dude, seriously, I know what I'm talking about, your experience was not religious. It is an almost textbook case of something called Sleep Paralysis. It's not too serious (it won't kill you), but I would thoroughly recommend you see a psychologist soon. This is me speaking as a psychologist, not as some forum poster. Sleep paralysis is associated with narcolepsy, and you don't want that.

 

Seriously, see a psychologist. Do it for your own well-being.

 

Here's a few links about sleep paralysis:

 

Best link I could find in 10 seconds

Good enough for most people

Way too advanced but here to make you realise how little you know about what you are experiencing and how much "evil" science knows about it

 

On that point.... dude: "I think science is one of Satan's biggest tools to get people away from God."

 

...

 

Wow.

 

...

 

Wow.

 

...

 

You're one of them huh? ¬_¬

 

Maybe you don't need a psychologist...... maybe you need a tornado to lift your house up and carry it far away and then drop it on a wicked witch, so that you can steal her shoes and ask the overlord Wizard if he can give you a brain.

 

/opinion

 

But seriously, as a psychologist, this is me recommending that you go and see a psychologist about your sleep paralysis.

Edited by Mortukai

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MadeInThe80s

Not trying to be a patronizing smartass like you but since you are so sure that it's not religious why is it still a mystery to what causes the hallucinations?

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No Escape?

They do explain the cause of the hallucenations.

 

In normal situations, the brain has external information to either confirm or disregard the threat. If this occurs during a sleep paralysis episode, the brain is unable to determine the level of threat and a sense of suspicion occurs.

 

When this suspicion continues, the brain will attempt to explain this feeling of apprehension by creating elaborate explanations for the fear.

 

Many of these hallucinations are indistinct  shadowy figures, humming or buzzing noises. Others are very clear visions of people, animals or figures. Sounds of footsteps in the room or voices speaking are also common. These hallucinations are generally accompanied by intense fear.

 

In other words:our mind begins to create a sense of fear when hit with sleep paralysis, and to cope with that fear it projects images, sometimes detailed, of a person, place, or thing. In your case, you saw your father and Jesus Christ.

 

But...my opinions on atheism? Can't say. I'm at a point in my life where religion plays no large role...but I'm still wandering through different beliefs at the moment. A part of me believes in Jesus...another doesn't. I know my father wouldn't be proud if I was atheist, so perhaps his dissaproval is a factor, but the whole concept of a greater god is somewhat...I don't know...fake-ish.

 

I suppose I also fear that should I dismiss God, then if it's all true, I won't go into Heaven because of my lack of faith.

 

Ah well. I'm thirteen...I have plenty of time to worry about faith and religion.

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neitherine
I know my father wouldn't be proud if I was atheist, so perhaps his dissaproval is a factor

Sorry if i sound rude or abrasive, but i think that that is quite a sad situation.

 

As you said, you are only 13, and at this age you tend to tip toe around delicate situations such as religion. Take some of the more serious religions, ones with heavy links to terrorism. If someone does not beleive in the relgion, they are executed by the state, so many people do logically meaningless things that they do not beleive in.

 

take my advice enny, when it comes to beleifs, beleive in what you want to beleive in.

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K^2
Maybe you don't need a psychologist...... maybe you need a tornado to lift your house up and carry it far away and then drop it on a wicked witch, so that you can steal her shoes and ask the overlord Wizard if he can give you a brain.

That's cold. Good to have you back. It was getting rather boring.

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MadeInThe80s

one thing I found interesting are dreams, how are they possible without the use of your eyes?

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K^2

 

one thing I found interesting are dreams, how are they possible without the use of your eyes?

Eyes have nothing to do with it. Eyes are simply there to project the image of the world onto your retina, so that the image can be sent to your brain through the optic nerve. The image is copied to the area of your brain responsible for visual recognition. These areas are trained to recognize certain features in the image that correspond to features of 3D objects. If you know in advance what you are looking at, you can recognize it quicker, so some common features can be recalled from memory to make the process faster. The process of recalling images is similar to the process by which the image gets there from the optic nerve due to the way that the neural nets tend to work. This means that seeing something and preparing to see something are very similar experiences. If you do have visual information coming in from the optical nerve and everything else works the way it should, you can usually tell the difference between real image and recalled image. This is how you would picture something in your mind. Otherwise, you actually see what you expect to see. That's what happens in the state of dreaming or halucination.

Edited by K^2

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MadeInThe80s

Got hit with sleep paralysis again last night when just before I picked up a book and faith and started getting into it. I can't explain it, I haven't touched the bible or anything the last few days yet everytime I do I get hit with it that night. I think it's definately something spiritual/demonic, criticize all you want.

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No Escape?

We're not criticizing you. We're simply saying that, although you so diligently cling to the theory that the paralysis has something to do with faith, it's actually more plausible that it is a pyschological thing instead.

 

That being said, n one can make you believe something you don't want to believe. So if you must, you can think that the paralysis is caused by a supernatural force. Take what Mortukai has said into consideration, though.

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mikehaze

Let him have his own faith. It won't kill you. I don't care to read through the liberal blab-and-jab in the previous pages so whatever. It doesn't seem he's trying to impose it on you so just give it up.

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