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IV ● XxX

Atheism

Recommended Posts

asimov

i haven't read the bible, nor do i know too much about god and stuff. but i have heard the saying "god has a plan for us all".

 

so why would god create anything in the first place? it just doesn't seem to serve any purpose. yeah i know that is the same as questioning the meaning of life, but if god can do anything why would he create beings that can question their own existence, then keep the meaning of their existence from them until they die?

 

also, if god HAD to create our universe, how did god come into being. is god a force just like the four other fundamental forces in our universe, who acts to keeps said universe balanced?

 

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MadeInThe80s

God made us for his pleasure I suppose, he saw that it was good when he created everything. Now the world back then when it was first created was a different place, it was utopia and the first humans were perfect in every way it was only until Adam & Eve ate the forbidden fruit that sin entered into them and the world since then has fallen. It would be wise to read bits of the bible here and there if you have the time.

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K^2
Also on a scientific level, God HAS to exist there is no way about it. A superior being has to exist, the universe didnt appear out of nowhere that has to be a creator it is that simple. To say we were brought here by chance is stupid, if I were to create a bang and experiment what are the chances that life would be created from that? Science is people's way of trying to understand the universe, it is not the end all be all it doesn't hold all the answers or THE answer to life. God does.

God doesn't have any more reason to exist than a chair I'm sitting on, which admitedly does seem to exist, nor any more than a little green man standing nearby, which is most likely just a figment of my imagination.

 

Your argument that universe needs a creator is flawed. If we accept the fact that everything needs a creator, than God needs a creator. That's a problem, because God's creator would need one too, and we are faced with an infinite number of creators who created each other, except for the last one, who for some reason descided to create the universe instead of another creator of creators. Strictly speaking, that's possible, but it doesn't quite fit with the idea of one God who created everything. On the other hand, if we accept that God exists without needing a creator, we accept that there can be things that do not require a creator, and then we must accept that the universe might not have required one either.

 

Life created at random is quite likely. Simple self-replicating molecules are pretty much certain to appear somewhere in the universe, the universe being such a huge place, and all. After that, a couple of billions of years of evolution are likely to result in some complex life forms. And if that isn't good enough, consider the possibility that this is not the first Big Bang. The universe might be going through infinitly many explosiong/collapse cycles, and you got to expect life to form at some point.

 

You might start talking about the odds of life developing here and now. However, if you accept the fact that somewhere at some time life will develop, then the odds of it being here and now are a certainty. Why? Because rocks on some empety desert world tend not to think about the possibility of life and existance of God. Nor do they tend to think about anything else.

 

Finaly, science was never meant to give anyone any answers. People who assume that do not know anything about science. Science is a set of methods for predicting and altering the events by construction of models. That is all that science is meant to achieve. For everything else there is phylosophy and theology. But you might as well use the magic 8 ball.

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MadeInThe80s

Trying to rationalize how God came about is waayyy too much for our human minds, we simply dont know. But can you really argue that everything you see around you came from nothing?!

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asimov

 

God made us for his pleasure I suppose, he saw that it was good when he created everything

 

pleasure? why would a divine being need pleasure?

 

like i said before also, if god HAD to create our universe, how did god come into being. is god a force just like the four other fundamental forces in our universe, who acts to keeps said universe balanced?, i don't feel like god would be a "being".

 

 

@K^2

 

 

Finaly, science was never meant to give anyone any answers

 

the whole point of science is to find the answers to all our questions, you say.

 

 

Science is a set of methods for predicting and altering the events by construction of models

 

which has the sole purpose of explaining our world to us in terms we can comprehend, why bother getting methods if we are not going to apply them to the questions we want answered?

 

 

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K^2

 

Trying to rationalize how God came about is waayyy too much for our human minds, we simply dont know. But can you really argue that everything you see around you came from nothing?!

So trying to rationalize how God came to be is too much for a human mind, but trying to rationalize how the Universe came to be isn't?

 

What you are failing to understand are the properties of "nothing". If you have some space void of matter, it is not "nothing". The very fact that this spot of space follows certain laws of nature means that this spot is filled with something. Typically, it is reffered to as vacuum, which, in some sense, is as tangible as matter. In fact, matter can be viewed as a state of vacuum, sort of like ripples on the surface of the pond. So clearly, it is not "empety" enough to be called "nothing". In order to get "nothing", you must remove not only the content from the space, but also all rules governing it. The crazy thing is that rules that tell you that things don't come from nothing is part of the things you must discard. Once you do that, there is no telling what kinds of crazy stuff will start popping up.

 

which has the sole purpose of explaining our world to us in terms we can comprehend, why bother getting methods if we are not going to apply them to the questions we want answered?

Why bother? Not wanting to chase after your food with a rock might be a reason. I also enjoy driving to places, and using internet. There are also more subtle things, like stable society, given to us by political and economical sciences. That is the purpose of science. Make things more convinient.

 

Most importanly, no real science has ever answered any questions.

Edited by K^2

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asimov

just because any "real science" hasen't solved anything yet, does not mean it is redundent.you say that the purpose of science is to make a stable economy, which it does, but not all science does. in the end, all our sciences might make our life perfect, we will live in econmic equilibreum and be in perfect harmony with our world(s). now what? what is the point of living then if our science has solved our problems, our new problem is to find out why we are there in the first place, which is what "real science" is trying to do.

 

 

*edit, i just had a quick browse though some of the info on the net about string theories and the TOE etc...god dam that is confusing, it sure as hell won't be solved in our lifetime.

 

double edit* i have a headache now, i might go lay down.

Edited by asimov

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K^2

What exactly is your background in science? Have you ever done any research? Are you knowledgeble in any particular field of science? Do you have a degree in that field? I have a feeling I know the answer to all of the above, but I don't like jumping to conclusions.

 

just because any "real science" hasen't solved anything yet, does not mean it is redundent.

Here: http://www.dictionary.com Look up "redundant". You obviously don't know what it means.

 

 

you say that the purpose of science is to make a stable economy

Nor do you know how to read, apparently. I said that stable economy is one of the things achieved partially through science. Never did I imply that it is the purpose of all science.

 

People have tried to come up with theories of existance that explain the reasons of existance and purpose in life. That kind of thinking is part of Phylosophy. Natural Phylosophy, aka Science, is another, unrelated, branch of Phylosophy. It did not intend to find the underlying reason for why things work the way they work, but merely describe it. If you read Aristotle's Physica, which is arguably the beginning of all science, you will see that most of it simply describes the behavior of various things in nature. Newton's Principia, which has founded the Classical Physics, goes a step further and provides mathematical equations corelating the dynamics of various bodies.

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MadeInThe80s
So trying to rationalize how God came to be is too much for a human mind, but trying to rationalize how the Universe came to be isn't?

 

The way the universe was created is already answered to me in the bible. The way God was isn't.

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asimov

No, of course i don't have a degree in any field of science, i am not even out of high school yet. does this mean my values and opinions on this topic are invalid?

 

i feel i was right in using "redundant", you make it seem like this area of science is, like www.dictionary.com says, more than necessary, which it is not.

 

Nor do you know how to read, apparently. I said that stable economy is one of the things achieved partially through science. Never did I imply that it is the purpose of all science.

 

okay, i worded it wrong, i should have said "you say one of the purposes...etc.

 

Finaly' date=' science was never meant to give anyone any answers. People who assume that do not know anything about science. Science is a set of methods for predicting and altering the events by construction of models.

 

i still don't understand where you are coming from though, these models we construct must represent something, if it gives us the ability to predict things, then it will give us an answer? why make these models if we cannot use them to answer our questions?

 

Trying to rationalize how God came about is waayyy too much for our human minds, we simply don't know. But can you really argue that everything you see around you came from nothing?!

 

The way the universe was created is already answered to me in the bible. The way God was isn't

 

this is also what i do not understand, according to you and many like you, god make the heaven and the earth and the universe and all that. then indirectly he made the bible right? the bible, in a roundabout way, says that we should repent sins, live a good clean life and we go to heaven for eternity, failing that, damnation in hell forever. well why does god propose this test of life to us? why did god purposely create flaws in our being that would do something he does not want us to do (sin)? it just dosen't add up.

 

 

 

just because any "real science" hasen't solved anything yet' date=' does not mean it is redundent.[/quote']

Look up "redundant". You obviously don't know what it means.

 

bored.gif

 

Finaly' date=' science was never meant to give anyone any answers [/quote']

 

That kind of thinking is part of Phylosophy. Natural Phylosophy' date=' aka Science, is another, unrelated, branch of Phylosophy.[/quote']

 

quite being so picky about spelling, even you make mistakes.

 

 

*for some reason the quotes aren't working when i preview my post, all the other ones are, anyone having same problem?

 

 

 

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MadeInThe80s
this is also what i do not understand, according to you and many like you, god make the heaven and the earth and the universe and all that. then indirectly he made the bible right? the bible, in a roundabout way, says that we should repent sins, live a good clean life and we go to heaven for eternity, failing that, damnation in hell forever. well why does god propose this test of life to us? why did god purposely create flaws in our being that would do something he does not want us to do (sin)? it just dosen't add up.

God didn't purposely create flaws in us, Adam and Eve did by eating the forbidden fruit now you could say if God created them perfectly then why did they go against God's word I think what it comes down to is God also gave us the choice of free will. He didn't make us robots. I don't know how to get this across clearer than I can but sin was never apart of our nature in the beginning.

 

I believe God created heaven perfect, free of sin free and all things rotten, no one who has lived a life of sin without repentence can enter that kingdom because it'd be like allowing Tim McGraw into N.W.A. haha bad analogy I know. All those with sin and without Christ go to Hell.

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asimov

there's my knowledge of the bible and its story for you, ada and eve thing makes sense.

 

of course, records of human existence before the time of adam and eve is explained by?

 

 

also, think about the idea of heaven, imagine all of our problems are suddenly taken away fom us, we have no purpose, we would just, exist, for eternity in heaven. i would much rather just die and have that as the end as i know it then live forever.

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MadeInThe80s

records of human existence before Adam and Eve? Never heard of this.

 

I think it is because people are so use to having problems in their lives from day one that they think life would be boring otherwise but this isn't how life was intended. If you think youll miss these problems by entering a kingdom of bliss beyond what our minds can process then i can bet you will not.

 

I am wrong in saying this but back last year before I didnt really know God I was into ecstacy and drugs and whatever, drugs are sometimes known as the "Devil's counterfeits" counterfiets of what? the bliss you will recieve in Heaven Id imagine but probably a trillion times cut down. I can say the high I got from eckies was unbelievable especially the first time, I would imagine Heaven's bliss infinately better. I know i'm wrong using this as an example but i saw ur sig so Im just trying to make a point to you. I cant say I am perfect in what Im argueing here as I'm just beginning to get into all of this agian myself.

Edited by MadeInThe80s

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K^2

 

The way the universe was created is already answered to me in the bible. The way God was isn't.

Lets start with the fact that Bible does suggest the origin of God.

 

The Bible says, "In principus erat verbum. Et verbum erat deus. Et verbum erat apud deum." Sorry if I missed some inflections, my Latin is a bit rusty. The King James translation (might not be quite word for word, as I'm doing this from memory), "In the begining there was the word. And the word was God. And the word was with God."

 

The "word", of course, does not need to be understood literally as a spoken word, but rather information or knowledge in general, and the part that says, "And the word was God" means word and God are the same, not that the word has meaning "God". In this case, the whole line suggests that God is knowledge so great that it is selfsufficient. Since it requires no physical manifestation, it can exist simply because nothing else does.

 

But why should you trust Bible in the first place? If something can be created out of nothing, why must you jump to conclusion that some supreme being was created first, and he created the universe, and not that the universe was created first? There were many books written on creation thousands of years before and after the Bible was written. Why must you believe the Bibile's version?

 

No, of course i don't have a degree in any field of science, i am not even out of high school yet. does this mean my values and opinions on this topic are invalid?

It doesn't make your points invalide. The fact that your points don't withstand an arguemnt does. However, when your knowledge of science consists of a course in biology, or whatever you took in high school, and you're trying to argue about the purpose of science with someone who has a degree in Physics and heavily studied sciences for many years, maybe you should try to read more carefuly. I tell you that science answers no questions, and you repply that no, science is not pointles. I never said that it is. Science gives you models. You can use these models to alter the enviorment as you see fit. You cannot use these models to understand why that enviorment exists as it does or why your changes will affect it the way they are predicted to affect it.

 

records of human existence before Adam and Eve? Never heard of this.

There is no historical record, seeing how there was no writing to speak of back then, but there is archeological record, showing modern human migrations to various continents 30-20k years ago, and early humans going all the way back to 0.5M years ago.

 

Edit: By "modern", I mean biologicaly identical to us.

Edited by K^2

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MadeInThe80s

When it comes to trusting the bible it's simply faith, I believe in it's words.

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K^2
When it comes to trusting the bible it's simply faith, I believe in it's words.

You can believe it. It is your own choice, but before you were saying that God has to exist and that there is no other way arround it. I have shown you the way arround it. I did not intend to make you believe that there is no God, because it would be just as silly, but only that there is nothing universaly self evident about God's existance.

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MadeInThe80s

I guess what it comes down to is faith, I cant really argue this properly by trying to rationalize what i believe because i feel it is something beyond that.

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Mainland Marauder

OK, so Adam and Eve had three sons, Cain, Abel and Seth.

 

Cain had a wife.

 

Where the hell did she come from?

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Rown

I guess some old book that wasn't in the old testament claims there were like... 14 kids... the Jews didn't like that idea though so they cut it down to the 3 sons.

 

The original Jews were trying to create a moral society, 14 brothers and sisters making babies amongst themselves really did not meet the criteria.

 

I guess the original transcribers were hoping no one would notice the wives placed here and there.

 

Rown rampage_ani.gif

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The Truth7

as for the whole life coming otu of nothing thing, I took an AP Biology class last year and we had a whole chapter on this.

 

In the 50's (!), the Miller-Urey experiment was conducted. Here's the wikipedia link.

link!

 

In summary, biological... eh... stuff.... which is part of what separates me from a rock, CAN, be formed out of non-biological stuff. RANDOMLY. And it doesn't even require that much time... to get SOME biological stuff.

 

You see, if the experiment were carried out for..... 2 billion years, the results would be A BIT more complex.

 

Hm

 

While that doesn't prove the lack of a God it certainly proves that things like life CAN arise RANDOMLY. A watch doesn't need a watchmaker if the laws of nature can assemble it on its own.

 

By the way, your Christian God hates Mexican kids!

 

Have some contradictions with your salad of lies, Christian folks.

 

 

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K^2

 

The whole article is filled with missconceptions. For example, it claims that the Science stated that the Earth was flat. That, of course, was not the claim of Science, but a common belief. The closest that came to science at these times were the Phylosophers, primaraly of ancient Greece. They have concluded that the Earth was round. They have estimated it's size, though, they did make an error by roughly a factor of 3 because they did not understand the effects of atmosphere on the path of light. They have studied the way the planets traveled, and there was even the suggestion that Earth, among other planets, travels arround the Sun, though, it was an unpopular one. The article also suggests that the Earth being round and suspended in space is stated in the Bible. What we see, however, is the Church persecuting all ideas that Earth is round, and once it is proven beyond doubt, they went after people that believed that Earh travels arround the Sun. I don't know for sure why the Church took that position, but I have a feeling that somethign in the Bible tiped them off.

 

The rest of the "facts" presented are just as bad or worse. These few that sound reasonable could have easily been coincidental. I don't want to waste my time going over all of these.

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MadeInThe80s

Perhaps the church took it the wrong wya.

 

What's everyones opinion on REVELATIONS concerning the rapture? I find it interesting. Basically it seems the end times will include a cashless society something I am seeing now through the use of cards and all of that, it looks like people will brand something individually to buy stuff which means no more fraud since everyone will have literally their own bank details on them aka "the mark of the beast" but I dont think it'll be THAT obvious, it might go in the form of a chip.

 

There is alot of natural/man-made disasters now too, hurricane on new orleans, the tsunami on south east asia, 9/11, the london bombings, Ive never seen so much.

 

Imo, it looks like the world is getting closer and closer each day to the rapture. I wouldnt be shocked to see it come about in the next 50 years.

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K^2
There is alot of natural/man-made disasters now too, hurricane on new orleans, the tsunami on south east asia, 9/11, the london bombings, Ive never seen so much.

 

Imo, it looks like the world is getting closer and closer each day to the rapture. I wouldnt be shocked to see it come about in the next 50 years.

People were saying the same thing 50 years ago. And before that, and before that. Population is growing. Technology is developing. There will be more man-made disasters, and natural one will claim more and more lives. On the other hand, we also learn to deal with disasters better. Overal, it balances itself out.

 

As for the number of recent natural disasters, the only thing that really has increased in numbers in the past few years is the number of storms. However, it is a part of the cycle. People were also panicking when a few years back the Sun started spitting out a flare after a flare. It calmed down, though, and only knocked out a few sattelites in the process.

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Mainland Marauder

And as long as people keep crowding the coastlines, there will be more hurricane deaths as this cycle of increased tropical cyclone activities wears on.

 

Interesting article on the rapture and Revelations prophecy teaching here, in the Christian Science Monitor no less.

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MadeInThe80s

Here is an interesting arguement against Athiests I found. http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/atheismintro.html

 

One thing I found ironic is that athiests are really when you look at it putting faith that everything came from nothing, there was no space or time yet all of this came from nothingness yet they scoff at the idea of a DESIGNER.

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Mainland Marauder
Here is an interesting arguement against Athiests I found. http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/atheismintro.html

 

One thing I found ironic is that athiests are really when you look at it putting faith that everything came from nothing, there was no space or time yet all of this came from nothingness yet they scoff at the idea of a DESIGNER.

What gets me is the notion that just because you are not a Christian, or you don't subscribe to a religion that places all higher power into a pseudo-tangible, theoretical entity (or entities) that you don't have beliefs at all. Everyone has them. It's whether or not you want to recognize them as valid.

 

The fundamentalist Right attacks nonbelievers better than it tries to logically legitimize their own stance pretty consistently.

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MadeInThe80s

I regonize your beliefs but I dont consider them valid at all because if I did then I wouldn't be a Christian. Likewise can be said about Athiests.

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Mainland Marauder
I regonize your beliefs but I dont consider them valid at all because if I did then I wouldn't be a Christian. Likewise can be said about Athiests.

I, on the other hand, hold everyone's beliefs to be valid, as they are valid to their bearers, regardless of whether or not I agree with them.

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Otter

Then you're far too forgiving, MM. wink.gif

 

Madeinthe80's, I suggest you do more research on the opposing viewpoints before you fall back on tired debunking lines. There's nothing like reading an article that shares your point of view, yet remains entirely uninformed, to only reinforce your own ignorance. In the beginning, there was nothing? Who ever said there was a beginning? wink.gif

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