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IV ● XxX

Atheism

Recommended Posts

Lazzo
i'm an atheist, but I was rised the catholic way, only that I didn't believe in god then, and I never will. I even went to a catholic school and was fed 'Worship GOD' every day, and every thursday we had to go church for a 2 hour service, and I never felt the presence of god, when everyone else said that they could.

That really isn't all that unusual. tounge.gif

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Canofceleri

Atheism isn't a belief... it is the anti-belief... it's the people in the corner saying, "f*ck! Why do I have to believe in anything theistically at all?!" That's not to say that atheists don't believe in things. I'm an atheist, I believe in the evolutionary theory... but it's not in the same realm as theological thoughts at all, I don't even couple the two together. To me, atheism is just me saying I don't believe there's a god(s) and that's that. That doesn't mean I don't endorse another school of thought that tells of how we came to be, but it does mean that I don't put any stock in some big boogieman in the sky snapping his fingers and poof we're here.

 

And you want denial? Denial is my mother... living a miserable life in a miserable marriage whose only solace is that someday, someday she'll meet her maker. That's denial. People want there to be something more, something to live for... futile living can be depressing if you let your human mind think about it too long... me? I get f*cked up, I have a good ass time while I'm here... fun is my crutch.

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K^2

There is a hell of a lot more evidence for evolution than creation. Nevertheles, calling evolution a certainty puts you into the same group as everyone else who has a religion. Yes, it seems that some species have evolved from others. Saying that it implies that it could not have been designed by a greater being is unsound. As any believ derrived from unsound argument, it is a religion. Your particular form of Atheism is a religion. Live with it.

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bort_p

To me it seems that a lot of you really did not get past the first meditation of Descartes. There need not be any argument as to whether or not God exists. Its simple, He does. Bros its as simple as that, the beauty of believing in God is that it requires faith, and that is the proof right there. I feel, and am certain that one will never be able to produce satisfactory emperical evidence to prove that God exists. In fact, if you rely on science alone to say that there is no God, remember Science is not based on proof. If you want to go about actually proving something, look into mathematics. It really is the only academic that is solely based on proof, Science however is not. Science bases it's claim on experimenting, and conforming the hypthesis to the experimentation (I think that is a correct form of experiment). Then it is considered fact, until someone else can show it to be wrong through another experiment.

 

Plus there are people that have seen God, and talked with Him. They are called Prophets. In case you did not know prophets are people that talk with God, and then that prophet has the responsibility to give that message to the world. However, that does not mean that a prophet is greater than average joe, it jsut means that that is what God has called that person to do. People can receive their own personal revelation if they want to, all they have to do is ask.

 

Mind you I do not mean this to put down anyone's personal belief. Everyone has the right to believe what they want, and make their own choices. That is all.

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K^2

I have read Descartes. His "meditations" are a collection of logical falacies, which is not suprising seeing how he was high when he wrote them. He starts with attempting to doubt everything, and comes to a conclusion that he cannot doubt his own existance. Cogito ergo sum. That's the first mistake. It's a jump in logic. But Ok, lets take it as an axiom to push off from. It's shaky, but it will do for an axiom. He than procedes to construct an argument for existance of god based on existance of self and something he calls "The light of nature." If you follow the light of nature argument carefully, you find the second big error. It's a chain of logic closed on itself. It flows something along the lines of: A perfect being, aka God, exists => He would not let me believe in something that isn't true, and I believe that God exists => God exists. Finally, he tries to claim that he can get that chain rolling by using the Ontological Argument for God's existance. Look it up, it is another logical falacy. So then he pretends that he has proven that the light of nature works, and starts to apply it to everything, saying that if he sees something, and he believes that it exists, it must exist. There are a few other arguments which are just as bad as above, and really ammount to nothing.

 

And yes. Rellying on Science to prove that God does not exist is stupid. However, it doesn't mean that he does. It just means that you can't prove that God doesn't exist, and that is saying just as much as saying that you can't prove that God exists. As for people who have seen and spoken to God, I know a girl who talked to her dog when she was high. I don't think that proves that dogs can talk.

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TheJkWhoSaysNi

 

Plus there are people that have seen God, and talked with Him.  They are called Prophets.  In case you did not know prophets are people that talk with God, and then that prophet has the responsibility to give that message to the world.  However, that does not mean that a prophet is greater than average joe, it jsut means that that is what God has called that person to do.  People can receive their own personal revelation if they want to, all they have to do is ask.

 

 

 

Interesting.

 

 

No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

 

 

 

 

And yes. Rellying on Science to prove that God does not exist is stupid. However, it doesn't mean that he does. It just means that you can't prove that God doesn't exist, and that is saying just as much as saying that you can't prove that God exists. As for people who have seen and spoken to God, I know a girl who talked to her dog when she was high. I don't think that proves that dogs can talk.

 

Yes. I agree. Though why cant we show whether the prophets existed? Jesus would be first on the list. We can show that it's more likely jesus diddnt exist than he did.

 

It's not possible to prove/disprove that God exists but Jesus was made of flesh and directly influenced the world around him. It should be easy to prove he existed. However... The only people to write about him are the writers of the bible gospels. No writers from the time he was supposedly alive mention him. Writings about him only start appearing ~100 years after his supposed birth.

 

 

Even the gospels are questionable. Paul, for example. In all of his writings he never says he met or even saw Jesus himself.

 

There are no eye-witness writings of Jesus, despite there being a libraries worth of text from the time Jesus was alive. You'd think with Jesus doing so much miraculous stuff he'd get talked about. He apparently touched thousands of lives yet nobody thought to write about him.

 

The origins of stories of Jesus themselves are questionable. The sties of Jesus is very similar to mythology before him. Hercules, Mirthra, Buddha, Attis of Phrygia, Dionysus, Horus/Osiris, Krishna. I found this comparison while researcing.

 

Now, taking into the fact that there is no evidence of Jesus and he is incredibly similar to a lot of older mythological beings it seems the stories about Jesus are just compilations of older retold with changed names/places the only logical conclusion is that Jesus never existed.

 

 

Edited by TheJkWhoSaysNi

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Otter

I think there's quite a bit of evidence, not the least of which a cult that became a dominant world religion over the past two thousand years, that Jesus, or a very similar man, did in fact walk the earth.

 

Whether or not he was the son of god, however, is definately questionable. colgate.gif

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K^2

Well, if we assume that trully random events exist, as predicted by Quantum Mechanics, and then take into account the symetry of time, as required by the consservation laws, the past is just as undetermined as the future. The Statistical Mechanics tells us that the number of possible futures is far greater than number of possible pasts, which is what creates the 'forward' direction in time in the first place, so it is easier to talk about the past than the future, but considering the fact that we often cannot tell what's going to happen in the next year, should we be talking about something that allegedly happened 2000 years ago? Of course, I have not actually counted the number of possible states, so I can't say for sure that 2000 years in the past would have greater number of states than 1 year into the future, but it seems unlikely that it would be otherwise. I'll try to make an estimate based on the temperatures of Sun, Earth, and Vacuum when I have some free time.

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Runestoner
I think that it is a persobnal belief, because that is their personal choice, and as it was previously pointed out, how can something unproven be denial?

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jizzyman

I take the side of Kurt Vonegut on this issue...

 

 

How do humanists feel about Jesus? I say of Jesus as all humanists to, "If what he said is good, and so much of it is absolutely beautiful, what does it matter if he was God or not?

But if Christ hadn't delivered the Sermon on the Mount, with its message of mercy and pity, I wouldn't want to be a human being.

I'd just as soon be a rattlesnake

 

And as to the claim that believing in God is some kind of insanity - I would claim that it does not exactly work for you to be sane in a world where such men as Hitler have led nations, where millions of people have been "purged", where inquisitions have been run-of-the-mill (and continue to be) ...

 

A lunatic is a minority of one - I join hands with the moon and dance my sanity away when I can...

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K^2

Hitler, whom you've just mentioned, also believed in things very strongly. We know where it got him and millions of innocent victims.

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Tom Toole
Hitler, whom you've just mentioned, also believed in things very strongly. We know where it got him and millions of innocent victims.

I have some respect for dear dead Hitler.

 

At the very least his methods were effective, we wonder at his prowess at taking over Germany.

At the very least he was not a communist, we love his courage in defending Germany from the Red Sea.

 

 

As to the strenght of his beliefs? I doubt he believed in anything quite so strongly except as an alternative to nihilism, dadaism was quite strong at the time and he detested it - He was not accepted to art school, as you know.

 

Madness is madness - Racism does not have its basis on religion, neither does genocide.

 

Blaming Religion for Hitler is like blaming pigs (the ones that go "oink oink") for the French Revolution.

Blaming "strong beliefs" for Hitler is pretty shallow - strong beliefs are part of life, hardly anybody really knows how closely they believe certain things, most challenges to beliefs are overlooked, glazed over, forgotten, released.

 

 

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K^2

Oh, I'm not blaming religion. However, both the religion and zealous racism and nationalism have some common roots in the basic human tendencie to believe in things without sufficient evidence. When you see one go horribly wrong, you should be very cautious about the other.

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Lone Soldier D

I belive in the power of chi, reicarnation and karma (and communisem), and when some one can prove that ther is a God or gods and godesses then I can throw my belifes out the window.

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K^2
I belive in the power of chi, reicarnation and karma (and communisem), and when some one can prove that ther is a God or gods and godesses then I can throw my belifes out the window.

I can easily demonstrate to you that anything you believe is statistically impossible. That's even without taking a cheap shot at reincarnation.* Would that be good enough for you to throw your beliefs out of the window?

 

 

* If you know anything about the way that neuron nets work, you would know that it is impossible to transfer any bit of personality from one random NN to another by any other way than learning. That is due to the fact that every brain has a unique "architecture". Without such a capability, the idea of reincarnation pretty much just fails.

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Lone Soldier D

I don't thing that we move the spirit and memorie to an other body, it's more so that we transfer our belifes and ideas in to the future, bothe in the way of neutrons spliting up and going in to other things that can be seen as DNA memorie and that the things we lern during our breafe moment here can pass on, but that can also be inmortalety. And if I'm to brige up inmortalety so can I say that inmortalety is when you go down in the books, as a wounderful bein (Bob Marley and Gandhi, and if anyone calls Marley a crachead I'm gonna go medival on yo ass) or as a evil dictator (Stalin, Hitler and many others). Oh, and how do you explain spacememories??? And the felling of missplacement in time, and the doupting of you own identety??? Well, we can just say that it's just psycholodical but we never know, science is only specultions and migth find that memorie can randomly reconstruct in rare cases... very rare cases.

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K^2

Beliefs and ideas are information. Same rules apply. There is no such thing as genetic memory. DNA can only change randomly or be edited by viruses. No part of your consciousnes can affect the DNA. Neutrons do not "split". They can only beta decay when they are a part of a large nucleus. The things like space memories and feeling of misplacement are just illusions. Untill you can prove otherwise, you can't use it as an argument.

 

As for staying in history, yes, you can think of it as a form of imortality. You can even think of it as your thoughts livnig on through other people. It is, however, completely different level of existing than living as a person.

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Lone Soldier D

A tapeworm can get throug a maze, then eaten by another tapeworm who gains his memorie and can get throug the same maze, that is DNA memorie but I'm not sure that it's real, remember they talk about it in the move Phanthoms so I can realy use it as a argument I know that. And if ther is no suche thing as DNA memorie how come that I've got the same psycho diagnostic as my father, not 100% the same but some what the same??? The thing is that the memorie in the brain can't become DNA memorie, but the electrical charges in the brain is something we can bring up to, I saw some ghosthunting program where they got a electromagnetical reading from thin air, and that EM reading can be memorie that flot freely, a spirit or just some random electromagnetic pulse that just created it self. Now, it migth look as if I try to contredict myself but it's just so that you can't post an argument against me!!! but you surely going to do that 'cuz ther may be some holes or something else that you can use.

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K^2

That tape worm experiment is bull sh*t. I'm not the greatest specialist in genetics, but I have taken a few classes, and I have done a couple of simple genetic engenering experiments.* While there are some ways that the genetical information from one worm is passed to another, which by the way is unlikely and requires a virus, the DNA is not going to have any information about the maze, and the changes in the DNA of the second worm would only happen in a few cells, and most likely, would not be expressed untill the next generation. So I don't know where you got it from, but it's not true.

 

DNA can have some effect on the person's behavior. There is no doubt about it. It might even contain some genes that would affect what religion you'd find more acceptable. However, DNA does not contain any information accumulated during your life time. Any information contained in it is a result of millions of years of evolution.

 

95% of anything they tell you on any Ghost Hunting TV show is crap. Ignore it. First of all, the "EM readings" isn't specific enough. What were they measuring? Electric fields? Magnetic? Electro-magnetic radiation? And regardles of that, there could be hundreds of causes from natural to man-made. I can't say for sure whethere there can be ghosts or not. That sort of goes back to the question whether there is God. However, I can tell you that a human mind cannot exist outside of the human body, if for no other reason, because it requires a hell of a lot of energy to run. If there is some residual "thoughts" left in "cosmos" after the person's death, they are nothing like a human mind, and they are very unlikely to manifest themselves in any practically measurable way.

 

 

* Just want to make sure that these were some very basic experiments. Something along the lines of cutting up a piece of DNA, putting a certain portion of it into plasmids, getting the bacteria to take thee plasmids in via endocytosis, and getting these bacteria to express a new gene. Basicl university level genetics.

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Lone Soldier D

Well the tapeworm thing is from a movie, so I diden't think that it was to true (especely when they never sad who and where they did it). They hade a electomagnetic reading divice (I diden't care to much 'cuz that program semed to be just BS). Imust go to some haunte place to see this sh*t 'cuz seeing is beliving, and I doubt anything that I can't see (ther is no wind, you are just fooling yourself).

Edited by Lone Soldier D

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threesixmafia

christianity isnt a religion christ dispised religion.

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K^2
christianity isnt a religion christ dispised religion.

The statement, "Christ dispised religion," can be classified as a legend. Your belief in it constitutes a religion. Any questions?

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Tom Toole
Oh, I'm not blaming religion. However, both the religion and zealous racism and nationalism have some common roots in the basic human tendencie to believe in things without sufficient evidence. When you see one go horribly wrong, you should be very cautious about the other.

So you're saying that Nationalism and Religion are not scientific? are not approached in a scientific manner?

 

Religion and Nationalism are related in some way I suppose- both bring people together, both (in many cases) have anthems, both have ceremonies, both are tied to historical movements. One surrounds the idea of "God" and the other the idea of "nation". In both stories are told of how people should behave "thou shalt not kill" or "a person shall not be deprived of liberty [...] without due process of law".

 

To a very great extent the existence of Nations and Gods is merely cultural. As far as can be seen Hitler merely used nationalism and religion as an excuse, as a way to power.

 

I would say that genocides are caused in a much greater extent by the existence of social organization, scientific technology, among other things.

 

 

Does Atheism bring people together? Atheism is the lack of a belief - Opposition to specific beliefs has risen, but it seems a lack of that belief does not cause differences in behavior, it is easy for atheists to imitate who they live with for the sake of amiability. Do you not know how to eat with chopsticks? Do you dress in a jeans and t-shirt when going to a business meeting? Do you walk around the streets naked when the weather is temperate? It is rather easy to humor people.

 

Tradition is sometimes strong, Social organization is sometimes strong - "God" "Nation" "Destiny" "Glory" "Honor" "Love" "Good" "Happiness" "Heaven" are merely words used to express rather intangible things which are nevertheless important. After all, your father could've tried to explain to you why you should go to school and you could've not understood. A comander needs to have the troops trust him in order to command, he may not always have time to explain everything.

 

Too little curiosity can kill the cat. And... I can't escape the feeling that darwin's theory of evolution works for human beings as well, as well as the feeling that maybe death is not so bad.

 

The thing about sufficient evidence is that some things should be private or confidential yet "terrorist groups" or "gangs" or "mafias" or "churches" or "societies" whether they be involved in the government or not have been shown to be very powerful.

 

Government, Media, Business, Social Organization.

 

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KollarGTAMF

I am an atheist. I am proud.

Edited by KollarGTAMF

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MoiRiv
I am an atheist. I am proud. Of my many arguments and reasons for being such I will mention this one now... Scientists in the last few decades have discovered the part of the brain responsible for belief, blind faith, feelings that there is a "god" or larger being present. Epileptics who have seizures in the temporal lobe have grand religious experiences and are extremely faithful in all things... and by their own accounts, often uncontrollably. This condition is commonly referred to as "hyper-religiousity" (not a real word, but this is the common phrase) That part of the brain is hyper-active and it shows.... Humans are wired to believe and make things up to explain what we do not understand. Why do you think we eventually figure so many things out?

LOL

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asimov

i guess i would be atheist, but only in the sense that i don't like the idea that i am not in control of my own life (read: destiny), or the fact that my life is the buildup to where i go when i die.

 

also i think the legitimacy of religions comes into play, there are so many, how can we be sure they all weren't just concevied by ancient government(s) trying to get their society's to conform and avoid "sinning".

 

but mostly the first part.

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MadeInThe80s

 

I was raised in "The Book" and was even fanatical about it at one point (scary stuff). Life's been harsh to me and I can't help but think that I was looking for answers like most of us do. Religion in general strikes me as a control device. Don't get me wrong; the Bible has a lot of good lessons in it. But FORCING people to abide by scaring them? Hard to respect that.

 

If I had to choose today, I'd probably best be described as agnostic. I believe in fate and karma. How could I not after SOME of the stuff I've been through? It sort of goes back to looking for answers though. The truth is that none of us KNOW. We only know what FEELS right to us. If it helps keep us goal oriented, nice people, or whatever, then great. When people use it divide one another though, there's nothing respectable about that.

 

Today's entry from my George Carlin calendar: "Spirituality: the last refuge of a failed human. Just another way of distracting yourself from who you really are." I rather like that. Mostly becuase I'm in touch with who I am more than most people.

My religion Christianity doesn't FORCE anyone to believe in anything, you have freewill to do so and it's unfortunate you took the other path and especially unfortunate after getting into all that stuff.

 

Ive heard arguements about how the world would be a better place without religion but I dont see it that way, if religion was abolished then man would just turn to the next big thing and pin all the world's problems onto that, this would go on and on until man's eventual destruction.

 

Religion as a form of control, some may think so but I dont think so. It's more like getting your spirit intune to the gospel and believing in it, I don't ever feel controlled by religion and I know I am not. I believe in Christ and I think he sets the best example of love and how to treat your fellow man than any person in history.

 

Now what some people do is that they come across a few jerks from Religions and blame the whole Religion because of them. They're are bad people everywhere, even in religion. You dont start blaming a whole race after you've come across a few people from that race that were assssholes that would be stupid.

 

Also on a scientific level, God HAS to exist there is no way about it. A superior being has to exist, the universe didnt appear out of nowhere that has to be a creator it is that simple. To say we were brought here by chance is stupid, if I were to create a bang and experiment what are the chances that life would be created from that? Science is people's way of trying to understand the universe, it is not the end all be all it doesn't hold all the answers or THE answer to life. God does.

Edited by MadeInThe80s

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asimov

 

Also on a scientific level, God HAS to exist there is no way about it. A superior being has to exist, the universe didnt appear out of nowhere that has to be a creator it is that simple. To say we were brought here by chance is stupid, if I were to create a bang and experiment what are the chances that life would be created from that? Science is people's way of trying to understand the universe, it is not the end all be all it doesn't hold all the answers or THE answer to life. God does.

 

if that is true, then god cannot just appear out of nowhwere aswell. something had to create ...it.

 

i don't firmly belive in god , nor do i completely deny his/her/its existence. but i rekon mankind will have a much better idea of things when some sort of a grand unified theory of physics is developed.

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MadeInThe80s

that is a question of course no human mind can understand we can only know if we follow christ and get to heaven. You can wait all you want for science or physics or whatever to solve the truth of life but i can guarantee you that you will probably be waiting forever of ur natural life.

 

It's stupid for you to rely on that actually, people are looking for answers left and right, the answer is right there in that little thing called the bible. It has it all. People just can't believe that there is a creator which I find funny since life and our intelligence is REALLY unbelievable if you think about it. I don't mean to be patronizing and sorry if I come off that way but I just don't get why people firmly believe that there is no God at all, people can counter that and say well where's the proof that God exists? Well I believe every word of the bible and put my faith in it. The bible has stood the test of time, thousands of years passed by and look... no one has debunked it. It's really amazing.

 

Edited by MadeInThe80s

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MadeInThe80s
i'm an atheist, but I was rised the catholic way, only that I didn't believe in god then, and I never will. I even went to a catholic school and was fed 'Worship GOD' every day, and every thursday we had to go church for a 2 hour service, and I never felt the presence of god, when everyone else said that they could.

Blessed are the ones who can feel him and maintain faith but blessed more are the ones who havent and still maintain faith I reckon. I cant say for sure that I have totally felt the presence of God but I maintain faith because *I* feel it's right so dont let that get you down!

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