Michael Moore

[Cheatah]

Just saw the documentary today.

 

Found it very intriguing.

 

Thought he made some good points, thought he over did it in some areas, and lost all respect for Charlent Hestin whatever his name his.

 

What are your thoughts on Michael Moore's movie?

 

Basically... Guns in America?

 

 

EDIT: Ok

 

Dicussion then.. to elaborate...

 

Why are there more gun related deaths in America than any other country in the world?

 

Should everyone in America still have the right to carry a loaded gun?

 

Is Micheal Moore being unfair to Americans by making a documentary that really questions a lot of things the USA has stood for for years?

Edited September 19, 2005 by Cheatah

[Yuck Fou]

Edit: Uh, nevermind

[Guybrush Threepwood]

I should point out that it is very hard to debate an issue or topic when you barely give us anything to work with.

So you watched the documentary? Big whoop, most of us did, and we all have our opinions about it.

But are we discussing the documentary here? Or are we discussing guns in America?

And why guns in America? And not guns in the world?

Are we talking crime related to guns? Are we talking shooting guns for a hobby? Or perhaps guns in the sense of hunting?

Or are we debating gun-laws maybe?

 

If you elaborate, a good debate can come from this. If not, well, this topic might aswel go straight to the bin. So I encourage you, explain your point and your reasons

 

P.S. - his name is Charlton Heston.

[dr zoidberg]

Not the right forum but whatever. I saw this before, it's good and very convincing but it is Michael Moore, you can't trust everything he says. Like his argument, "they went bowling that morning, why did no-one blame bowling" is not based on fact. The two were members of the bowling club but they did not go bowling that morning. Seems unimportant but it's an example of how cavalier with the truth Moore can be when he wants to.

 

P.S. Before I get flamed to the bone for not citing sources, not that lobsters have bones, there was a documentary on Discovery Channel about the Columbine killings, this is where I got the information that they were not bowling that morning. Here's another website that shows how inconsistent Bowling for Columbine is.

[Saggy]

If you do a quick google search, you can find loads of pages with all sorts of cited "facts" from the movie that various people have proven wrong. Most of it seems to have stemmed from Moore being nominated for best Documentary, which angered a lot of people because his film skewed a lot of facts.

 

For instances, Charleton Heston did not make that speech in response to the town of Flint telling him not to go there, it was taken from a speech he did two weeks earlier.

 

Here's a page discussing similar things, although I read it from a different one.

 

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

[Otter]

To be honest, every documentary skews facts in order to tell a tighter story. In fact, even the act of displaying something that actually happened can have the effect of "skewing" what really happened. Moore's Bowling for Columbine is no more guilty of this than "The March of the Penguins".

 

It was a great film, and outlined some rather damning facts about the gun mentality in the states. HOWEVER, there is already a discussion about this, if you look a bit farther down the page.

 

Victim Disarment (Gun Control)

[Cheatah]

Ok, I updated the Dicussion with some real basis for debate. The key issues, I think.

[jizzyman]

 

Dicussion then.. to elaborate...

 

Why are there more gun related deaths in America than any other country in the world?

because it has a significantly larger population for one. - http://www.hardylaw.net/rates.html

 

 

Should everyone in America still have the right to carry a loaded gun?

just like everyone has the freedom of speech, not really, and nobody ever had it anyway

 

 

Is Micheal Moore being unfair to Americans by making a documentary that really questions a lot of things the USA has stood for for years?

 

What has the USA stood for for years?

[Otter]

http://www.gtaforums.com/index.php?showtopic=205558

 

http://www.gtaforums.com/index.php?showtopic=205558

 

http://www.gtaforums.com/index.php?showtopic=205558

 

http://www.gtaforums.com/index.php?showtopic=205558

[jizzyman]

http://www.gtaforums.com/index.php?showtopic=205558

 

http://www.gtaforums.com/index.php?showtopic=205558

 

http://www.gtaforums.com/index.php?showtopic=205558

 

http://www.gtaforums.com/index.php?showtopic=205558

no thanks, dont think that's what this is about

[Otter]

Um, it's exactly what this is about. Go read the bloody topic.

[Cheatah]

 

Um, it's exactly what this is about. Go read the bloody topic.

These are the issues/guidlines for debate:

 

- Why are there more gun related deaths in America than any other country in the world?

- Should everyone in America still have the right to carry a loaded gun?

- Is Micheal Moore being unfair to Americans by making a documentary that really questions a lot of things the USA has stood for for years?

 

Only 1 of those 3 are dicussed in the thread you posted.

 

So, I think there's still at least 2 and a half things left to debate here, if people are willing.

[Mr Slick]

America's foundations were built on the ownership of a gun. I can't see laws being reversed anytime soon. Not without a civil war. Though the film did address some 'interesting' points.

 

Is it me or is MM losing all credibility right now. Seem's to be the most hated man in America. Why?

[Eviscero]

Because he's known to manipulate scenes in his movies to make the people on there seem to be saying or doing something that is clearly out of context and would lead the public to believe one thing that isn't actually what they're doing or saying.

[tehhunter]

Michael Moore is the example of everything wrong with liberals, like Rumsfeld is with conservatives.

[Otter]

Rumsfeld compared to Michael Moore??? What bloody planet are you on?

 

[Leftcoast]

I would like to point out that if we did not have all these gun related deaths here, that they would be replaced by stabbings, beatings, poisonings, burinings, vehicular manslaughter and more. My point, we are a violent society. I have traveled a bit outside of the states and asside from people who are pissed off at us and hungry enough to kill a tourist for their family, we are far more dangerous and violent than any country I have been in.

 

As far as the gun control issue, (I want to point out that I'm more liberal than conservative) I don't have a problem with people owning guns. I also don't have a problem with gun control, and I realy don't like people that are inherently against gun control. What is wrong with making it illegal for idiots, criminals and irrisponsible people from having guns while allowing law abiding citizens to have them? In my opinion, most gun control laws in the states are, for the most part, useless. There is also the issue of the illegal gun trade, last I checked most US criminals (w/ guns) did not get them legaly. That I have little solutions to but different law enforcement tactics.

 

I do want to say that what ever you feel about Moore, he does raise some good issues that could use some attention in the states, but I think the best solution will have more to do with social change than with gun related issues. People in the states seem to forget that there are many more ways to kill people than with guns. But hey, if you would rather get beaten to death in a dark ally than shot with gun, that is your buisness.

Edited September 22, 2005 by Leftcoast

[Yuck Fou]

I'd feel better if people were beating/stabbing the sh*t out of each other.

 

Honestly, if gang-bangers are going to keep killing each other... at least add an element of danger. I'm sure they'd be less willing to get into sh*t when all they can go in with are their fists, knowing that they're going to die by being bludgeoned to death.

 

A bullet is nothing compared to knuckles in the side of your head 300 times.

[Guybrush Threepwood]

I'd feel better if people were beating/stabbing the sh*t out of each other.

 

Honestly, if gang-bangers are going to keep killing each other... at least add an element of danger. I'm sure they'd be less willing to get into sh*t when all they can go in with are their fists, knowing that they're going to die by being bludgeoned to death.

 

A bullet is nothing compared to knuckles in the side of your head 300 times.

So basically you're trying to scare people into submission by letting them bludgeon eachother with fists/wooden planks.

That's really... stone age. Yeah, I think they did that in the stone age.

 

In any case, this is about as much a debate as Roseanne Barr is sexy. She's fat. And ugly. She's like that really ugly fat chick that you knew in high school, and all of a sudden she's on TV. And you're asking yourself "why the f*ck did this happen, lord haven't I suffered enough?"

But then you find out she makes less money then you do, and you actually look good in a leotard. That makes up for a lot. And if you're still grieving after that, you can always add her to your to-kill-list. I encourage that. I'm completely against gun control in her case, shoot on sight.

[Yuck Fou]

I wish I could be as cool as Guybrush.

[hooked on sanandreas gurrl]

 

I should point out that it is very hard to debate an issue or topic when you barely give us anything to work with.

So you watched the documentary? Big whoop, most of us did, and we all have our opinions about it.

But are we discussing the documentary here? Or are we discussing guns in America?

And why guns in America? And not guns in the world?

Are we talking crime related to guns? Are we talking shooting guns for a hobby? Or perhaps guns in the sense of hunting?

Or are we debating gun-laws maybe?

 

If you elaborate, a good debate can come from this. If not, well, this topic might aswel go straight to the bin. So I encourage you, explain your point and your reasons

 

P.S. - his name is Charlton Heston.

uh, maybe the topic was meant as how did we feel about the documentary , and quit soundin like a prick.

 

(long, but please read)

@ topic: I thought the doc. was awsome. i felt sick when it showed the kidz shootin the kidz in the school library. that waz crazy. and sad. did u see that one kid draggin himself on the floor? i felt really sick, like i can't explain. and when that teacher called 911, they just wanted to know about the gunz. then micheal moore wuz sayin how come Canadians aren't so scared of their neighbors or other people that were not as gun crazy or lots of us don't even lock our doors at night? and why do we have a low homocide rate? i don't know, maybe cuz we have a lesser population, and our news media doesn't always have murders as their top story, and our gov't actually works for us. I feel really blessed to live in Canada, especially after watching that doc. and it was crazy when it showed the twin towers getting hit by the planes. ( i cried when that happened on 9/11) and how Bush hired Osama Bin Laden to train his country about munitions. (not ammunitions, munitions: everything having to do with gunz)

 

(my own opinion)

Don't know why Bush was elected. All the presidents that were good for the States were assasinated.Lincoln was good cuz he wuz gonna free the slaves, but nope, he was killed then slavery continued. Kennedy was good bcuz, uh i forget, i think bcuz he was gonna do something for black people.

 

No offense to Americans, but the states should get off it's high horse and quit tryin to dominate the world. That's what Bush and bin Laden are trying to do, i bet. Then when they each have half the world, what then? a huge war between them, then there'll be no natural resouces left on earth! nuts.

Edited October 3, 2005 by hooked on sanandreas gurrl

[Otter]

Gurrl, can I make a request? When you post in the D&D section, can you please - at the very least - try to correct your spelling and grammar? That way, your opinions may have some weight.

 

Anyhow, even though I'm not a big fan of Bush, you ought to be sure that you read both side's opinions of what's going on in the USA these days. It's a very divided country, and "leftist" opionions like Moore's are misrepresentational. All documentaries have an agenda.

 

Take your comments about Bush, for example. Why was he elected? Aside from the cowboy image, the political family dynasty, and an unflinching desire to make taxes easier on those who pay the most (dollar for dollar) - he ran against Gore, who had no chance against the Bush Family (suprising how close it actually came) and John Kerry.

 

Ah, John Kerry. I refuse to believe that man was selected to run the democrat party. There must be some sort of conspiracy. The man has no tact, can not smile at a crowd, can not keep his stories straight. Above all else, he had no charm... and let's face it. G.W. Bush could charm his way out of a mexican standoff.

 

Anyhow...this has gone desperately off topic.

 

Sorry 'bout that, gov'na.

[hooked on sanandreas gurrl]

Gurrl, can I make a request? When you post in the D&D section, can you please - at the very least - try to correct your spelling and grammar? That way, your opinions may have some weight.

 

Anyhow, even though I'm not a big fan of Bush, you ought to be sure that you read both side's opinions of what's going on in the USA these days. It's a very divided country, and "leftist" opionions like Moore's are misrepresentational. All documentaries have an agenda.

 

Take your comments about Bush, for example. Why was he elected? Aside from the cowboy image, the political family dynasty, and an unflinching desire to make taxes easier on those who pay the most (dollar for dollar) - he ran against Gore, who had no chance against the Bush Family (suprising how close it actually came) and John Kerry.

 

Ah, John Kerry. I refuse to believe that man was selected to run the democrat party. There must be some sort of conspiracy. The man has no tact, can not smile at a crowd, can not keep his stories straight. Above all else, he had no charm... and let's face it. G.W. Bush could charm his way out of a mexican standoff.

 

Anyhow...this has gone desperately off topic.

 

Sorry 'bout that, gov'na.

 

what's with everyone and wanting everyword spelled the "right way"? people know what i mean, and that's just my style so shut it

[Otter]

It's not that people have a problem with it (they do) but that it makes you look like a complete idiot (it does).

 

Come on, I'm a fellow Canuck here. Work with me.

[Guybrush Threepwood]

It's that people have a really big problem with it (they do) because it makes you look like a complete, utter, nonsensical retard (it does).

 

Come on, I'm a fellow Canuck here, and even I'm ashamed of you. Don't ever work with me, or I'll kill you, I've got a restraining order against you!

I corrected your quote so it would look like the proper response. No need to thank me.

 

Also, "gurrl", if you do insist on saying what I write is being a prick, then at least quote the right text. Because the quote you took is only me asking for him to elaborate, which is very helpful as far as I'm concerned.

In fact, I dare say that you shouldn't barge into D&D anymore before you can actually write an entire post without sounding like a 12 year old. Which is probably the same as seeing an airplane... way over your head.

Badum ching!

 

Now shut up, you stupid. Just shut up.

[Leftcoast]

 

Ah, John Kerry. I refuse to believe that man was selected to run the democrat party. There must be some sort of conspiracy. The man has no tact, can not smile at a crowd, can not keep his stories straight. Above all else, he had no charm... and let's face it. G.W. Bush could charm his way out of a mexican standoff.

 

Look, Bush is realy an idiot and could not charm his way out of a turd convention. He cheated his way into both presidencies. He used the media to purduade the people that actualy did vote for him (who should not have given their economic standing). The rest was just cheating, some will say this is speculation and horrible "liberal" crying, but I'm inteligent enought to know that it was fraud.

 

Seriously, we are talking about a guy who said he wanted to "More better help people". This is not the type of person that deserves a job outside of wal-mart or taco bell.

[AllDoItTheSame]

He used the media to purduade the people that actualy did vote for him

 

yeah damn those bastard politicians that advertise in the papers and on tv. I think we ALL know how illegal that is.

[i love misty]

"Michael Moore, on the other hand, is very fat and lives in a big mansion." -Misty

[jizzyman]

I think that what we are seeing is a result of a great demand for stupidity.

 

In fact, this "discussion" is decurrent of that. People wanted to talk about politics, so politics was both dumbed down and dramatized.

 

I think what we will see is that the US is simply continuing what it has always done. The only difference is what the government and the people are using to justify, to clarify, to judge.

 

Between Imperialism and Democratic Militarism there is smaller contrast than one would think.