Forum Censorship

[Mortukai]

I just read a really long topic about racial differences. Then I spent about 30 minutes posting a reply. Then I clicked "post reply", and when it took me to the topic, I saw that opius was reading it, then I went back to the D&D forum, and lo and behold: the topic, she is gone.

 

Not moved, because that leaves the "moved" tag in front of it.

 

Not locked, which would have been just as annoying, but at least it'd still be there.

 

Just regular gone. As in, thoroughly deleted.

 

Partially I'm pissed off because now people won't have the chance to read my witty reply.

 

But mostly I'm pissed off because I had a certain respect for this D&D forum. It was a place where I could read and join in with all sorts of heated debates about all sorts of things. But apparently opius thinks that I shouldn't be reading anything about racial issues. So he decided in his infinite wisdom to use his moderator powers to utterly prevent me from reading or discussing anything about racial differences.

 

I didn't realise the D&D forum was a nazi state. I was under the impression that provided there was no flaming or personal attacks, all topics were capable of being discussed and debated among civilised self-accountable human beings. I don't know where I got that impression, but clearly, it has been shattered.

 

Don't get me wrong here. I totally understand that race is a very highly charged topic for most people. Even mentioning the implicit thought that perhaps there might be any sort of difference between any two given races beyond skin colour is tantamount to skinning a baby and fashioning it into a nice hat. Sure, I can see that. I just don't see how this is justification for the complete deletion of an entire topic before 4 people have had a chance to read it. Locking a topic, I've seen, once it's become a flame war. Moving a topic I've also seen, when they are completely irrelevant or full of worthless one-liners. But deleting of a topic I've never seen.... obviously... because it's been deleted. How often does this occur? The thought that it has occured even once has tainted my respect for the D&D forum and moderation thereof.

 

I think that this is bullsh*t, plain and simple. NO topic should ever be deleted unless it is of absolutely no worth to anyone, or contains information which is illegal to present (like detailed personal information about where someone lives or something). This sort of censorship is bullsh*t anywhere, but it is thoroughly ridiculous in this Debates and Discussions forum. If you don't agree with something, I don't care what powers you have to moderate, have some f*cking balls and either post your disagreement along with supporting arguments, or just exercise some self-moderation and don't f*cking read the damn thing. Deciding that other people can't read something just because you don't like it is the sort of thing I'd expect in 1938 Germany or 2008 America, not in this forum.

 

Speaking of censorship, does anyone have any idea what happened to the Censorship topic we had going here last year some time? I think some chick tagged "Kaboom!" started the topic, but I can't find either her or the topic on this forum with the search tools. It's a real shame too, because that was a good topic.

 

P.S. Just in case this topic gets deleted also, I'm copying it to a text file on my desktop, and if it gets deleted, I'm going to PM it to a whole sh*tload of members, and get them to post it up. This is a safety measure I'm taking because I've seen complaint topics get erased before on other forums.

Edited September 11, 2005 by Mortukai

[muppetmaster]

I've found my replies deleted before, not to say it wasn't necessary, my replies tend to be idiotic and irrelevant. It is the mods and admins responsibility to maintain the forums and if they see any topic/post as unsuitable they have the right to delete it.

[adamcs]

Not moved, because that leaves the "moved" tag in front of it.

 

...

 

NO topic should ever be deleted unless it is of absolutely no worth to anyone, or contains information which is illegal to present (like detailed personal information about where someone lives or something).

 

...

 

P.S. Just in case this topic gets deleted also, I'm copying it to a text file on my desktop, and if it gets deleted, I'm going to PM it to a whole sh*tload of members, and get them to post it up. This is a safety measure I'm taking because I've seen complaint topics get erased before on other forums.

It wasn't deleted, it was moved to the bin.

 

 

P.S. Just in case this topic gets deleted also, I'm copying it to a text file on my desktop, and if it gets deleted, I'm going to PM it to a whole sh*tload of members, and get them to post it up...

How mature.

 

PM Opius if you want to find out why it was moved. There's no need for all this e-drama.

[Opius]

It was deleted because it was nothing more than a copy-and-paste attempt at trolling by a user who signed up solely to post it.

 

And by the way, the forums are not a democracy; your rights do not apply here. We allow you to exercise them to an extent, but if you become a nuisance expect them to be revoked.

 

[EDIT]

Actually, I think since you're so unhappy with this 'censorship', I'll move back EVERY topic I've ever deleted from D&D back. How about that?

 

[EDIT 2]

And since this is nothing but a bitch-fest: Moved to GTANetwork Team.

 

[EDIT 3]You didn't have any rights to begin with. Australia has nothing in the constitution guaranteeing freedom of speech.

[SWEETSAPRIK]

Not only has freedom of speech never existed on this form, but it shouldn't.

 

1. Freedom of speech on the forums would entail allowing sexual, and racist content, as well as advertising, excessive flaming, etc. (see #5)

 

Personally I'm glad that topics along the lines of "I hate this religion and you should too," "This race sucks more than mine," "Let's kill people of this color/ancestry/religion/etc." aren't allowed, and not just because it disgusts me, but also because they would turn people away from the site. Now you or I might not post topics like this even if we were allowed, but some others would if they were given the "freedom" to do so.

 

2. This is GTA related site, the fact that we even have sections for things not related to GTA is because the staff is nice.

 

3. The average age of GTAF members is around 15. Not that there aren't those here who have the ability to engage in a debate, but there aren't that many. If you don't like the rules, or level of debates allowed then you should probably go to a site dedicated to discussing anything and everything, as compared debating on a GTA forum.

 

4. The staff can lock, move, bin, or delete any topic they want. They can also remove any posts from any topic they want, ban whomever they want, etc.

 

5. I think (Although I'm not positive.) that the companies that provides the hosting, and the google adsense banners which pay for the hosting, servers, etc., both have rules about what type of content can and can't be on the site. I believe that racist, sexual, and advertising related content is against those rules/policies.

 

Also, if this does get locked, moved, binned, deleted, whatever, I'd like to be left off of the list of people you plan on PM spamming with the content of this topic.

(EDIT)

Added the words "aren't allowed" as I somehow forgot to put them there in the first place.

 

Edited September 11, 2005 by SWEETSAPRIK

[Augh]

What sweet said. There's a difference between realism and everyone posting whatever the f*ck they like without any form of moderation or regulation. Screaming conspiracy when junk topics get thrown in the garbage is pointless and just making a scene. I'd point you at one of the points in the previous two posts, but there's too many airtight factors to pick from, I'm spoiled for choice.

 

Are you serious about this "security" spamming PM sh*t? You are, aren't you.

 

Less X-files CIA sh*t, more real post content plzthx

[Wheelman]

 

I was under the impression that provided there was no flaming or personal attacks, all topics were capable of being discussed and debated among civilised self-accountable human beings.

 

Is there a sign somewhere that I can't see, that says "Vomit your un-supported beliefs here"? Was an invitation sent out to select forum members to defecate their irrational opinions here? Why didn't I get one?

 

I challenge anyone to come up with a way to insult this guy more than he already did to himself.

 

Now I am forced to conclude that...  ...you are too stupid to comprehend it and deconstruct it

 

Yeah, I know your type. We call them "damaged goods".

 

...you've been abused and used as a f*ck puppet.

 

Or again, are you just full of sh*t?

 

If only you'd forgotten to post before you did...

 

How about next time you have some freaking balls

 

Then when you understand everything I've said, then you can debate me without sounding like you haven't read a damn thing and so don't know what the f*ck you're talking about.

Sorry, what was your point again?

[51L3N7 4554551N]

Jesus man, theres enough flame in there to start a house fire He's not only managed to contradict himself in everyway, he's made an ass of himself too

[Roald]

Honestly, I'd be pissed if my 30 minute post got deleted aswell...

[Demarest]

@Mort: Many institutions in society would like to control your thoughts and control your speech. They're perpetuated by programming people to believe such things like talking about something is bad taste, etc so that it no longer has to extend its reach any further as those already inundated by it will on their own. So if you should try to make a case in an attempt to pave the way for open-mindedness, you must construct your approach carefully, lest they target your approach as if one mistake on YOUR part somehow alters the weight of what it is you're trying to say. It's called marginalization and it's widely used by people to discount those that believe differently than they do. Or in this case, to add perimeter to a discussion so that the cortex at hand is no longer discernable.

 

For what it's worth, I agree that we should be able to DISCUSS anything that exists that we may all benefit not only from our own experiences, but the experiences of others as well that we may in turn bear the potential to evolve FORWARD as a race. An occurance so rare these days due in part to the self-destructive, self-perpetuating juggernauts of passiviity outlined above. However, I'm not familiar with the specifics you appear to be aiming at, so even I agree that your post comes off as a tantrum.

[BenMillard]

I'm not going to defend you, Mort, because you treat D&D with such ongoing contempt.

 

However, I would like to see the topic returned to D&D but locked so that Wheelman's quotes cannot be accused of being taken out of context. I've urged Mortukai to treat D&D more sensibly rather than treating it as his personal trolling ground on more occassions than I can remember. Hopefully this incident will make him re-examine the way he contributes to it.

Edited September 11, 2005 by Cerbera

[Yuck Fou]

Hmm.. anyone remember that big "public apology" topic Mort made outlining everything he's done wrong and a lot of the stuff he's said that he shouldn't have?

 

lol.

 

 

[Mortukai]

@Wheelman: I'm more than aware of my propensity to post hilarious flames. But thanks for digging those up. Especially the second one, because I'd forgotten that one and it was pretty good.

 

However, within the context of the original post, that's all really irrelevant. If anything, it strengthens the principle. If I can get away with saying all that stuff (and others can get away with saying much worse), then why are whole threads being deleted which merely present statistics and research results, even if in a volatile context and biased manner. After all, if any of you guys frequented the D&D forum, I'm sure you'd have to agree that volatile and biased posts are hardly rare.

 

@SWEETSAPRIK:

 

1: Yes. Wait, what was your point? Or do you think that simply saying "but that would allow people to say what they want even if I don't like it" is a self-explanatory principle?

 

2: No, it's because without non-GTA sections, there'd be much less reason for people to come here at all. Gen Chat pretty much holds this place together. The focus of the GTA series of games is far too narrow to keep any real member base interested for long.

 

3: The D&D forum has clear rules for posting within it, conveniently stickied to the top of the forum. Granted, most people don't read these, but they are there, and can be referred to when noobies post outside of the rules. The ages of the posters is irrelevant. It's like a rollercoaster ride: you have a minimum height that you have to be on, but you can be any age or gender or ethnicity or religion or whatever. In the D&D forum, your height is your ability to support your opinions. And this isn't even getting into the fact that the D&D forum is one of, if not the least frequented forum on the whole site.

 

4: No sh*t. Whether they have the ability to or not is completely irrelevant. Think of it like managers of a company. Without unions or industrial relations commissions or whatever you have in your country, technically, a manager has moderator powers to fire you, delete your work, give you a raise, change your work, make you do it again, etc etc. Technically, without governing bodies ensuring fair practice, your managers can restrict what you can say while at work, what you can wear or how you can look, how you can behave, etc. Fortunately, at least in Australia, we have unions and industrial relations to ensure that managers of any company can't abuse their powers, and can only exercise them with good reason. In america you guys like to throw around the words "checks and balances", and it's much the same thing. Of course, here on an internet forum it's pretty hard to moderate the moderators, so a certain level of trust must be placed in the mods to not be dicks. When a mod starts deleting topics or posts simply because he doesn't personally like them, that trust is broken, and is akin to a manager firing someone because they expressed an opinion he didn't like. In Australia at least, that's illegal. Essentially what you're saying is "might is right", so by virtue of the powers inherent to their moderator status, you're saying it's ok for them to do whatever they want, because hey, they have the power to do so. I wonder if you'd feel the same if, say, I became a mod and deleted each and every post you'd ever made, then banned you, just because I didn't like your screen name. You might try to say "but that's different", but really, it's only different in degree, and by the reasoning you've provided, it's no different.

 

5: You know you're in the sh*t when you start watching what you say in case your sponsor doesn't like it. Granted though, money is necessary for the servers, and advertisements are no doubt the only way to get this sans charging members subscription (which would pretty much kill the forum), and advertising companies are dicks. This is probably the best argument you've presented. However, if the topic in question breached some rules put in place by google, then I'd like to see the relevant rules and a description of how they were broken by the topic, because while it dealt with issues of biological racial differences, it wasn't racist any more than a topic talking about biological gender differences could be called sexist.

 

 

It was deleted because it was nothing more than a copy-and-paste attempt at trolling by a user who signed up solely to post it.

Wow, you seem to have an amazing insight into the character of a member based on just two posts! Are you psychic? Or are you merely jumping to conclusions? Sure, he may be a troll posting one thing, but given that he had to post twice, even if it was a copy-paste job, I'm inclined to think that he was at least interested in seeing a discussion. At least, I'm inclined to give the dude the benefit of the doubt. But then, I'm not a moderator...

 

 

And by the way, the forums are not a democracy; your rights do not apply here. We allow you to exercise them to an extent, but if you become a nuisance expect them to be revoked.

Wow. You're a real cock! Is that a prerequisite to becoming a mod: a complete disregard for social etiquette and a superiority complex? (if so, why aren't I a mod?? ) Do they teach you that line too? You know the one: "This is not a democracy, I can do what I want if I want to". Jesus Christ, you're a total sh*thead. I moderate two other forums: one quite large with a bunch of other mods, and one fairly small, with only a few of us, but we're all friendly guys who're willing to work with people and come to mutually beneficial arrangements. I've never done more than moving threads and telling people to stay on topic, because no more has ever been necessary. If I ever made some dude a mod and saw him ranting about being a fascist power, I'd get rid of him quick smart.

 

 

You didn't have any rights to begin with. Australia has nothing in the constitution guaranteeing freedom of speech.

That's ok, you Americans may have your constitutional freedom of speech, but we Australians exercise it more freely more often with less consequences. Sometimes we don't need a piece of paper to tell us what we can and can't do: we just use our common sense. But I guess as the existence of this thread shows, even with your piece of paper, you guys really are tight-asses about what other people can say, while we Aussies are pretty relaxed about sh*t like that.

 

But I guess now I can expect this post to be deleted, seeing how I exercised my non-existant right to say what the f*ck I want to say about a mod. And from what other people are saying here, apparently by virtue of the little buttons they have available to them, it's perfectly acceptable for a mod to delete or edit anything anyone says about them if they feel like it. I shudder to think that there are actually people out there who are comfortable with the idea that the power to do something grants inherant rights to do so. By that same logic I have the right to rape any woman weaker than me, or to strangle children in the street. Brilliant logic.

[51L3N7 4554551N]

 

Wow. You're a real cock! Is that a prerequisite to becoming a mod: a complete disregard for social etiquette and a superiority complex? (if so, why aren't I a mod?? ) Do they teach you that line too? You know the one: "This is not a democracy, I can do what I want if I want to". Jesus Christ, you're a total sh*thead. I moderate two other forums: one quite large with a bunch of other mods, and one fairly small, with only a few of us, but we're all friendly guys who're willing to work with people and come to mutually beneficial arrangements. I've never done more than moving threads and telling people to stay on topic, because no more has ever been necessary. If I ever made some dude a mod and saw him ranting about being a fascist power, I'd get rid of him quick smart.

 

 

I feel so unbeleivably sorry for the poor buggers you moderate. If you're anything there like you are here, I'm suprised they haven't left. Calling Opie a 'sh*thead' and a 'cock' not only is going to get you banned, but it also backs up the point of why the mods and admins are deleting your sh*tty posts. Being a cock is by no-means a prerequisite to be a mod, Opie as well as all the other mods do a far better job than what you do on your dumbassed forum, judging that if what you say is true. Your incompetent and un-needed flaming is getting you nowhere, as is insulting mods like the schoolchild you are

[junkie]

I think confusion about rights and freedoms arises when people mistakenly view this forum as part of the "real world". This forum within which we can all post is on a paid, privately owned server - this forum is owned by somebody, it is not a free world.

 

Look at it this way mortukai - you can walk into your own livingroom and masturbate on the floor if you so chose, its your livingroom. But you couldn't walk into someone else's house and masturbate in their livingroom. You could, but there would be consequences. Well here at GTAF you're in someone else's virtual livingroom, you may be sitting at home posting, but the post goes into someone else's "house".

 

Does that help clarify things?

 

(Sorry for the crude analogy, but it drives the point "home" doesn't it )

Edited September 11, 2005 by junkie

[Wheelman]

 

@Wheelman: I'm more than aware of my propensity to post hilarious flames. But thanks for digging those up. Especially the second one, because I'd forgotten that one and it was pretty good.

 

However, within the context of the original post, that's all really irrelevant.

No Mortukai, they are neither hilarious or witty. Maybe in your eyes, but I think from the evidence of your posts we can all make our own conclusions about how your eyes view yourself and the world around you.

 

Such posts as I quoted above are not welcome in D&D. They add nothing to the discussion or exchange of ideas, and only serve to create tension and confrontation. Inbetween your various slightly comical brags and boasts about gurlz and genes and sexuality and whatnot, those of us able to read between the lines can easily identify the basic lack of social etiquette that you possess in the form of either being unable or unwilling to stay civil to anyone you disagree with. If it wasn't for the fact that, outside of the namecalling and personal mud-slinging, you can actually present a decent debate, you'd most likely have been banned for trolling by someone on the moderating team long ago.

 

The quotes I posted are anything but irrelevant. In case it has escaped your wonderous, superior intellect, I was drawing attention to you portraying D&D as some easy-going, jovial place where mature people can discuss anything because it's always civil. That isn't quite the case, is it?

 

 

It was deleted because it was nothing more than a copy-and-paste attempt at trolling by a user who signed up solely to post it.

Wow, you seem to have an amazing insight into the character of a member based on just two posts! Are you psychic? Or are you merely jumping to conclusions? Sure, he may be a troll posting one thing, but given that he had to post twice, even if it was a copy-paste job, I'm inclined to think that he was at least interested in seeing a discussion. At least, I'm inclined to give the dude the benefit of the doubt. But then, I'm not a moderator...

That's right, you're not a moderator. Can't imagine why. Not when you think that a new user who signs up purely to copy/paste a huge diatribe about how whites are superior to blacks is a welcome topic for discussion, and doesn't deserve immediate banning.

 

 

And by the way, the forums are not a democracy; your rights do not apply here. We allow you to exercise them to an extent, but if you become a nuisance expect them to be revoked.

Wow. You're a real cock! yada yada yada...

Tut tut. Enjoy the temp ban. Come back when you can discuss an issue without degenerating into a tantrum.

 

 

But I guess now I can expect this post to be deleted

Nah. It speaks for itself. No need to do anything with it.

 

 

seeing how I exercised my non-existant right to say what the f*ck I want to say about a mod.

That's right. You don't have the right to say what the f*ck you want about a mod. Y'see Mort, maybe when you get a little bit older and considerably wiser, you'll realise that in all walks and aspects of life, in exchange for having the freedom to voice your opinion, you are entrusted with the responsibility to act civilly and not set out to offend people. If you renege on that responsibility, as youhave done here and on many cumulative occasions in D&D, you'll find that in the controlled, private environment of an internet message board, your freedom is also curtailed.

 

 

By that same logic I have the right to rape any woman weaker than me

I think you need help.

[51L3N7 4554551N]

Your lucky that Wheelman has the mercy to temp ban you, for calling a mod a sh*thead and a cock I would have banned you on the spot

[vALKYR]

 

Your lucky that Wheelman has the mercy to temp ban you, for calling a mod a sh*thead and a cock I would have banned you on the spot

Maybe that's why you aren't a moderator. You need to think about someone's punishment (or else it's called Staff Abuse) nowadays

[SloStenRacing]

 

is the sort of thing I'd expect in 1938 Germany or 2008 America, not in this forum.

 

You are probably one of the people that go around blaming Bush for everything and say you would have voted Kerry had you voted because he would be soooo much better. But yet you list 2008 (which is the next election) America, so you are saying that the next American president will be the same way?

 

 

<<ONE LARGE ASS POST QUOTING EVERY PERSONS SENTENCES SPLIT UP AND DISSECTED>>

 

Quit trying to be like me.

[SWEETSAPRIK]

Your lucky that Wheelman has the mercy to temp ban you, for calling a mod a sh*thead and a cock I would have banned you on the spot

Maybe that's why you aren't a moderator. You need to think about someone's punishment (or else it's called Staff Abuse) nowadays

Banning someone who flames staff is not staff abuse.

 

And I'm sure there are other reasons why he's not a mod.

[Svip]

Wooah, woah, there people.

 

What is the problem? The topic was moved to the bin? Censorship? Indeed! We need censorship so the general public doesn't read what they aren't suppose to read.

 

It keeps people under control. And you would rather have people under control, right? So they don't start dancing around naked in the streets.

 

I completely support censorship. And please censor my post if needed.

[Alfresco]

I agree with the German Danish bloke.

 

Censorship is here for a reason. so why dont you c*ntholes shut up. The mods rock. Cept when they unban people they have banned, in which case they're a bunch of anal licking sh*t suckers who need to have people piss into thier ears

[SWEETSAPRIK]

I agree with the German Danish bloke.

 

Censorship is here for a reason. so why dont you c*ntholes shut up. The mods rock. Cept when they unban people they have banned, in which case they're a bunch of anal licking sh*t suckers who need to have people piss into thier ears

Nothing to see here people, move along, move along.

[vALKYR]

Your lucky that Wheelman has the mercy to temp ban you, for calling a mod a sh*thead and a cock I would have banned you on the spot

Maybe that's why you aren't a moderator. You need to think about someone's punishment (or else it's called Staff Abuse) nowadays

Banning someone who flames staff is not staff abuse.

 

And I'm sure there are other reasons why he's not a mod.

Note the

 

[SWEETSAPRIK]

Check and mate.

 

I ruse da topik.

 

I <3 vALKR

[Otter]

I'd like to know why Mort is being treated with kiddie gloves here. If any other member had so blatantly attacked moderaters like he has, there would be a big, fat, permaban heading his/her way.

 

@ Mort: Seriously, it sucks that you spent all that time responding to a post that was created soley to piss members off. If you had the "balls" that you claim, you'd have started a new f*cking topic and posted your reply.

 

[Jigga]

I did not sign up for the pissing in the ears.

[Swarz]

 

... but it also backs up the point of why the mods and admins are deleting your sh*tty posts.

It's a credit to your intelligence that Mort's not complaining about HIS posts being deleted.

 

And whilst you're wrapping your brain around that, please remove your head from the staff asshole. Cheers.

[spoof]

The intraweb, just as real life, isn't fair.

 

I doubt whether anybody would disagree too strongly with such a statement.

 

However, what is "fair" in the perception of one individual does not always equate to that of another. Even if something is perceived as unfair, one must take into account the appropriate social context of the raising of the "unfair" point.

 

Mods are underpaid (lol) and overworked, but if they (as a whole) didn't do their job, we wouldn't have a platform to air such perceptions. In fact, we wouldn't have a forum(s) per se. If any given mod continually acts in a manner that is not appropriate, given their position, then steps will be taken.

 

This is something we have seen in the past and know to be true.

 

 

If any given individual has a complaint, or grievance with specific mod activities, then there is a right way to deal with such things and then there is a wrong way to deal with such things.

 

You won't find this protocol in any pinned topic, you'll find it under the non-existent thread entitled common sense (sorry, but I can't provide a direct link) - members need to find it on their own.

 

Mort is Mort, he expressed a perception and didn't back down even when he probably should have, but that's just him as an individual. Hopefully he will have learnt the social lesson by the time he is reinstated as a full member. Perhaps he may have also learned how not to dig the hole that you are in even deeper. Every single member over the years who hasn't learned this lesson has faced the consequences. I guess it is up to each individual in such a situation to determine what those consequences might be.

 

 

 

I'd like to know why Mort is being treated with kiddie gloves here. If any other member had so blatantly attacked moderaters like he has, there would be a big, fat, permaban heading his/her way

 

There is no question as to whether Mort likes to be argumentative in D&D, however, this time he has breached the line on a single point. He has never run around the forums spamming or disrespecting the STAFF per se.

 

This merely highlights that the mods are doing their job and that they take previous forum activity into consideration before making a decision.

 

 

 

@ 51L3N7 4554551N - common sense entails being able to read between the lines. Acknowledge what Swarz has already said and remember that post count does not equate to quality. Respected members of these forums have earned such respect over time, not through a succession of 1 or 2 lined posts

[illspirit]

That's ok, you Americans may have your constitutional freedom of speech, but we Australians...

 

illspirit looks at Opi's flag

 

But, erm, oh, nevermind.

 

 

 

If I ever made some dude a mod and saw him ranting about being a fascist power, I'd get rid of him quick smart.

 

And you wonder why you're not a moderator. Everyone knows Pike, Rothschild, Orwell, and whoever the hell wrote Silent Weapons for Quiet Wars are like my inspirations for all things administrative.