In The End

[Serenity]

I realize that this may contain some off topic information, but I figure it’s a general post and the SA-MP team has no general discussion forums, so I’ve declared that because their focus is SA, this is as close to a general discussion forum as we will get.

 

Looking at both sides of the argument:

 

In Reference: VC-MP

 

Posted on the VC-MP website:

 

We are now putting most of our time and effort into SA:MP. Since this doesn't leave us with enough time to maintain VC:MP, we've decided to give out the VC:MP 0.1c source code under the GPL license. This will enable programmers to create open source derivative works and perhaps keep Vice City multiplayer alive if there is still enough interest out there.

 

It's likely this will be the last VC:MP release for a while.

 

Please see the download page for the source-only release.

 

Update: There seems to be some confusion about who this release is intended for. This release is intended for developers. We don't expect people to have to compile 0.1c themselves to play. 0.1c is simply 0.1b with the master server code removed and some minor bugs fixed.

 

THIS RELEASE IS FOR DEVELOPERS. KEEP PLAYING 0.1b!

 

 

The master server has been shutdown for good. To those running 0.1b servers, we suggest you set ReportToMasterServer = false in your server.ini.

 

Server owners, please also note that we were serious when we said VC:MP 0.1 was not meant to drive large public servers. Now that the source code is released it is quite easy for people to create custom clients and override the anti-cheat mechanisms. You think twice about who you let into your servers.

 

This post would upset the current community greatly. It would destroy hopes of being able to resort to VC-MP while patiently waiting for SA-MP. On the other hand, programmers would find this source very helpful and help them take a stab at “game hacking.”

 

The following are quotes from “debates” on the VC-MP forums, a sub forum of the GTAForums.

 

 

Notice, that everyone that doesnt know squat sh*t about programming something like this are the ones complaining, while the programmers are very greatful.

 

I very well bet they are, and it is true, this can be very helpful to the programmers within the community. I just might point out however, that spookie from the development team said in the devlog: (paraphrased to my memory due to the fact that the devlog doesn’t seem to exist anymore) “[due to the lack thereof any great number of (C/C++) programmers in the community, I’m making the script engine work with (PALM/SMALL/something to the effect)]. Thus it is stated that there is very little in the amount of programmers within the GTA community. That leaves the remainder of the community, the people who play the modifications other people create.

 

These people, as stated by Camaro in the above quote, are the ones who are complaining. As this is the part based on VC-MP, we shall look at it from that perspective. VC-MP has been put in the “back seat” while the SA-MP team undertakes the process of creating an SA multiplayer modification. The problem is, the definition of “backseat.”

 

A multitude of people played VC-MP (atleast a 100, this does not include the development team) of these people, perhaps 2 or 3 were programmers. First, the release of the VC-MP source and the paragraph from the news post stating that “anti-cheat is easily removable” probably hit a lot of the legitimate players pretty hard. Second, 0.1c, which has been stated to include certain bug fixes (which normally improve gameplay), did NOT come with any compiled versions. If we roll back to the beginning of this paragraph, we quite quickly learn that not all 100 people are going to have (C/C++) compilers kicking around on their hard drive ready to compile VC-MP 0.1c and burn into playing. Therefore, you can imagine how troubled people might be.

 

On top of that list, the “Masterlist,” an object used by people to find places to play VC-MP at, has been taken offline permanently. This leaves people unable to find places to play a mod that they’ve probably been spending the last couple of weeks playing constantly.

 

So, the backseat includes the following:

-“Removal” of anti-cheat

An increase of people cheating?

-VC-MP 0.1c released with no compiles

How are people who just want to play the mod for what it is get to play?

-Masterlist offline

How are people who just want to play the mod supposed to find somewhere to play?

The “backseat” doesn’t really feel like a backseat to a lot of people, obviously. Otherwise, the complaints might not have come in such numbers.

 

Of course, kyeman did state at the process of developing and in the release of the source: “Server owners, please also note that we were serious when we said VC:MP 0.1 was not meant to drive large public servers.” Problem is, 0.1b did a pretty damn good job of driving a large public server, but 0.1c strikes that idea down.

 

I’m just going to reference a few quotes in here that have been seen from both sides.

 

 

You're asking why the source was released? We released it so that other people can maintain it and do some creative stuff themselves. Yes, people can get around the anti-cheat this way, but this wouldnt stop us from releasing the source code... You should be very greatful that the source code was released. Don't take it the wrong way. But of course, there will always be people who are ungreatful for releasing something like this. If you were a programmer you would most likely understand and appriciate such acts like this.

 

Of course, the source would greatly help programmers, no doubt about it. On the other hand, it destroys your player base over a “minority” of programmers within the GTA community, to quote one of your developers.

 

In Reference: SA-MP

 

The following post was made by kyeman on the SA-MP website to dictate to us the future of SA-MP.

 

 

Over the past few months we've been working on getting elements of San Andreas PC synced across a network for our multiplayer mod. Up until now we had not firmly decided what style of gameplay we would be aiming for.

 

At the beginning of this mod's development, I asked members of the small community we had at the time if they'd prefer deathmatch or MMO. Most people responded that they would prefer MMO style gameplay. Due to the nature of the way we write this modification, I later determined that an MMO would not be achievable for our team. We've mostly been developing with the thought that we would design some type of deathmatch/objective based system.

 

GTA: San Andreas is a difficult game to work with when deciding what type of gameplay will be suitable, fun, unique, and interesting. I personally was never convinced that a deathmatch, in such a large playground, would lead to any unique or interesting multiplayer experiences.

 

After talking with key members of the SA:MP team today, it has been decided that we will pursue a multiplayer co-op for SA:MP. Here are the full specs of what we intend to do:

 

> Network multiplayer co-op mode for GTA:San Andreas allowing upto 6 players.

> Synced pedestrians and pedestrian vehicles.

> Synced trains, time, weather etc.

> Playable co-operative missions against AI opponents.

> A master client model instead of a dedicated server model.

> An opportunity to sync some of the San Andreas elements, such as minigames, that would have been extremely difficult in a deathmatch/dedicated server model.

 

In a few words, we hope to bring a similar co-op experience to the PC that the XBox and ps2 versions had, but with no player boundries and more players within the world.

 

This would cause quite the uproar. A lot of people supporting the SA-MP team were expecting to enjoy a VC-MP like experience, deathmatch greatly synced and very enjoyable. It would also include a scripting engine incorporating the PALM/SMALL language. This provided a promising future while they could enjoy a very nicely synced multiplayer mod based on Vice City. It was a culture shock to many to learn that they would be making a, (summarized statement) 6 player coop with just about everything synced.

 

There’s some logic to both sides of the argument.

 

Of course, the mod is in full control of the SA-MP developers and they can do what they please. They do not have to listen to anyone, they don’t get paid, and their doing this for their enjoyment. They are in their full right to do so.

 

The arguments to this involved:

 

-6 players is quite small

There is no doubt about it. 6 players is quite small, especially for the size of San Andreas. However, there are measures to be taken to insure that this can be quite fun. As we haven’t seen a release yet, we can’t really judge the new direction based on this. However, as a second point to this, a lot of people were hoping to use SA-MP (and were going to use/have used VC-MP) as a support to “clanwars.” Large battles between two “clans” or “gangs” in the GTA multiplayer community. These clans consist of, normally, member counts well exceeding 6 players. These clans include KFC (it is no secret, but Camaro is a member of KFC, I ponder what their reaction to this information has been), VCES, etc. These sized clans have more then likely removed their “full support” of the mod due to being unable to support it.

-The split: Deathmatch and Coop

This is a highly opinionated subject. Most people making this argument are just bias. I personally prefer to play coop in games like Raven Shield, Ghost Recon, etc. What “I” think isn’t important, however. Neither is what everyone else thinks. The ruling sits in the hands of the “elite,” or the developers.

-Were the people who play your modification

There’s a lot of logic in this. If you developed a modification <specifically> for you and your five friends, you probably wouldn’t care. However, the mod is being released to a public audience. While they do not take priority, I somehow doubt you’re going to spend a lot of your time developing a modification no one will play. It is claimed that a “majority” or “atleast 50%” want coop. These are more then likely facts made up on the spot (no ones going to poll around the forums to find out what the true majority really is, except perhaps me.)

-Master client server

This is quite a hard subject too. While it is required for quite a few items, it is hard to comprehend the bandwidth requirements to host five other people with the amount of data that is being promised to be synced. Most people’s home connections will probably not support the amount of bandwidth required by the master client server setup. Thus, the player count decreases more and more as the people who want to play actually can not play. Once again, there has been no release, so this is theory and thus easily proved otherwise.

 

I have more then likely missed quite a few arguments, notable or not. I will continue to ponder through the forums and edit this post when necessary and if possible.

 

 

 

In Reference: Forum Administration and the SA-MP team

 

 

ROFL, LOL, and LOL! 

 

Who is saying this? Some 14 year old idiot that knows nothing? Yeah. So, mind telling me why this source code has no value?

 

 

You're funny.

 

 

I didnt say "I was going to get code alot of new VC-MP features alone." This wasnt released only so people could add features, either, but for references, people could learn from it, etc. You're really thick headed, Zircon. And yes, you're obviously a 14 year old idiot.

 

I’m going to try my absolute hardest to not be bias towards one side or the other here. However, in all due respect to Zircon, replying to his claims of being a “14 year old idiot” and banning him for being an “unappreciative retard” (which, can be pretty much used to ban well over half the community in one form or another) was quite over the top. In defense of the team and administration, Zircon did say some lines that were a bit harsh and probably over exaggerated, but this alone should not have pushed him to be banned without any sort of warning. Of course, I see with this administration I could be banned for this post alone, too.

 

 

 

 

In the end, the developers have complained about “the sh*t they have to take” and it “decreases their morale.” The problem lies in, they more then likely wouldn’t had to have taken such “sh*t” in the first place if this had all been approached in a different way.

 

Let’s look at VC-MP. It was placed in the “backseat.” Problem is, it seems the SA-MP’s backseat is sitting in the middle of a junkyard. The source was released with the intention to “help people create a better experience while we focus on SA-MP” but it was also stated “oh it’s easy to override the anti-cheat, so YOU be careful who YOU let into your servers!” This brings on “great, there will be hacked clients in not even a few days!” followed by “how the hell am I suppose to control who’s in my PUBLIC server.” Oh, I forgot, the releases weren’t made to drive large public servers after 0.1b did it so well. Then, son of a bitch, how are people suppose to find my server? It seems that in all the mishaps, the backseat didn’t include a network connection to the master server, thus they shut it down. Of course, time to time, the SA-MP team claims they will return to the junkyard with a patch of cloth and patch up the seats occasionally while everyone else runs around with knives cutting up VC-MP.

 

VC-MP could’ve been handled a lot differently. It’s pretty much considered to be the “icing on the cake” after the uproar from SA-MP. The SA-MP team wonders why they take so many complaints, so many “flames,” etc. The reason is pretty simple and while it has been recognized, it hasn’t been regarded properly. The community was abandoned. VC-MP has become unplayable; the newest version containing bug fixes didn’t even come with a compiled version. To top that off, there’s no easy way to find any VC-MP servers. VC-MP’s source release became a bitter dessert for those who were hoping to get an SA-MP version while they enjoyed themselves playing VC-MP. The SA-MP team claims their loyal fans weren’t so loyal, or was it that the SA-MP team wasn’t loyal to them and betrayed them?

 

Let’s jump to the main purpose of the mod, and hence, the reason that almost ALL support (patching seats anyone?) for the VC-MP was pretty much dropped. SA-MP claims they had no decisions in what the future was going to be, but I’d say multiple individuals (hence er, pretty much everyone) got the impression both from VC-MP and the developer log would be a “deathmatch” with the ability to create objective based scripting with a system written by spookie. The turn in direction would cause quite the surprise in many people, but until the news of VC-MP came out, it was “ok’d.” When the VC-MP 0.1c release was announced to be a source release, after kyeman stated a list for things to be released in VC-MP0.2, this would cause sh*t to fly into a very large fan.

 

sh*t wouldn’t have flown so hard and in such great amounts if the direction change was treated a little differently. The most common reply would have to be that the SA-MP team was writing the mod for themselves and not anyone else, and if no one else played it but the team, they’d still make it. Sure, the team might be in control, but to disrespect a good majority of your community, including many of those who hosted dedicated servers for VC-MP, many of which who were also in clans, by telling them that “hey, we’re making it for ourselves and we’d like you to play it, and if you don’t like it, go f*ck yourself” is pretty damaging. When people began claiming “aren’t we atleast a little important, you know, majority of the players, don’t we get any say,” replies from the team began to become quite vulgar or insulting (“stooped 14 year old omgomg~!,” ring a bell?), claiming that making demands over free software was inappropriate and wrong, especially for the big “we don’t get paid” line. The loyal fans now surprised and angered by the arrogance of the replies, become slightly un-loyal.

 

The developers showed the community that they really don’t give a sh*t what they think.

 

Then they ponder why more and more insults fly at them, the more disrespect they get, and it takes it’s toll on the developers. If the situation had been approached mucho differently, and a little.. restrain was shown on the forums, I’m sure the developers wouldn’t be feeling the low morale their currently suffering from.

 

Conclusion? You take a timeline, you throw in a couple of forum posts, and take some time, and you realize that the SA-MP team comes across as really arrogant, superior, and demonstrate that they don’t care for the players of the game, just the programmers (and even then, that could be a stretch.) We can’t dictate if this is their nature, of if a series of events would lead to them coming across this way, but either way, this is the way that they have come across.

 

Perhaps amending the ways of thought might help rejuvenate your supply of ex-loyal fans, who knows.

 

(ps: I’m not Blue Zircon also known as “stupid 14 year old idiot-unappreciated retard-flamer-spammer-whatever other false reason for a ban”)

 

if I missed anything, you have anything to add, rip apart, or support, please feel free to reply in any manner you feel necessary.

 

[Blokker_1999]

One small remark : the language is called PAWN and used to be called SMALL. But the SA-MP team decided to keep referencing to it as SMALL.

 

As member of the mta-team i do not dare to comment on this post. But it is a good recap of what has happend over the past days on these forums.

[kyeman]

The team consists of 2 programmers. And I have a headache.

[Agret]

-VC-MP 0.1c released with no compiles

How are people who just want to play the mod for what it is get to play?

 

Well as stated in other areas, 0.1c is just 0.1b with master server stuff removed. They are going to go to 0.1b to play it for what it is.

[Bob_TDH]

after reading first post i was just like wauuu , what else can i say, that was a pure ownage, lol i even started to feel sorry for sa-mp team

[Blokker_1999]

0.1c also contains some bugfixes.

[kyeman]

Bob_TDH:

 

Don't feel sorry for us. We're the ones that have played deathmatch, you're the ones complaining about not getting it.

[njr1489]

Kyeman is a cool guy, but the first post is all so true....

I'm actually shocked for the fact that the community the whole time was being neglected.

[The_Grudge]

Hm..

This is interesting.

 

First we thought that the MTA team wansn't paying much attention to the community, that the SA-MP team were some kind of angels that program everything exacly as the community want it to.

 

Look what happend now.

 

 

[Shookster]

Hm..

This is interesting.

 

First we thought that the MTA team wansn't paying much attention to the community, that the SA-MP team were some kind of angels that program everything exacly as the community want it to.

 

Look what happend now.

 

 

Strangely some people complained at the number of updates that MTA was giving. I always thought people loved to be kept updated, even if it was only a small update.

[Cam]

I didnt read your entire post word by word, and we appriciate your concerns about the anti-cheat removal. However.

 

 

This post would upset the current community greatly. It would destroy hopes of being able to resort to VC-MP while patiently waiting for SA-MP. On the other hand, programmers would find this source very helpful and help them take a stab at “game hacking.”

 

Yes, indeed they could have. But we just released a new version. This prevents open-source clients from connecting to servers that arent configured to accept them. This is good news to many.

 

 

On top of that list, the “Masterlist,” an object used by people to find places to play VC-MP at, has been taken offline permanently. This leaves people unable to find places to play a mod that they’ve probably been spending the last couple of weeks playing constantly.

 

Yes, it was useful while it was up, but it was crashing constantly; therefore rendered useless. So we had to take it down.

 

You can always go in IRC and join #vc-mp-servers though.

 

 

On top of that list, the “Masterlist,” an object used by people to find places to play VC-MP at, has been taken offline permanently. This leaves people unable to find places to play a mod that they’ve probably been spending the last couple of weeks playing constantly.

 

Points covered above.^

 

[njr1489]

Hm..

This is interesting.

 

First we thought that the MTA team wansn't paying much attention to the community, that the SA-MP team were some kind of angels that program everything exacly as the community want it to.

 

Look what happend now.

 

 

Strangely some people complained at the number of updates that MTA was giving. I always thought people loved to be kept updated, even if it was only a small update.

Thats because still had faith by the time they asked, but now its too late since they lost faith in them.

[Statico]

As much as I respect the SA:MP team, I must say some good points were made there.

The server browser being taken down could be addressed by the community. Kyeman I believe it was, stated in the blog that someone could create a 3rd party addon for the RCon interface which sent the server information to a browser. I would've attempted such an addon, but my programming skills are limited, and I am unfarmilliar with the Winsock API (and I hate delphi so that rules out the Deplhi COM controls).

As Camaro already said, a new version was released (0.1d) which can't be connected to with the 0.1c source. Admittadly they could've released a compiled version of 0.1c with the bugfixes, but then what would you rather? 2 releases within 3 days, one with bugfixes, another addressing the problems of compiling the source with no anti-cheat and LC:MP? It may not take long to download, but when it only takes a day or two longer, surely its better to only have to download one new version.

 

As far as this dispute over the team not listening to the community over the co-op thing, may I please note one thing; nobody specifically asked the SA:MP team to create deathmatch (as far as I know). Everyone automatically assumed that it would be DM, as that's what MTA was, what VC:MP was, and what MTA:SA eventually will be. Therefore you cannot say they ignored the community by choosing to go co-op, because there was no community decision to ignore.

Once the decision had been made and people started complaining about it, that's when the problem arised. However kyeman, despite the abuse they were getting, over the decision that was totally un-influenced by the community, spent the time writing a lengthy blog post over the technical side of the reasons for making it co-op. And if anyone had actually bothered reading it and at least trying to make sense of it and seeing things from the team's point of view, they would've realised that there is actually a reason for the decision.

Excuse the reference to MTA, but this has to be said..

Ever since day one of the release of MTA (the fact it's VC makes no odds), people complained about bad sync, lag, bugs, glitches, etc etc. We are now at version 0.5, and there are still these complaits, even saying that its worse than previous versions. And what is the primary MTA gamemode? And what did kyeman say the advantages of a master client were?

So by the team going co-op, yes you miss out on 20 player deathmatches, but you also lose problems in the way of bad sync and glithces, for the simple fact that the server has access to the raw game files and the current interface of the game.

So you moan at the problems of having a dedicated server, then moan when an alternative solution is thought up.

In the end it's your decision. Play a game which gives you deathmatch, but also bugs due to the server not beaing as "clever" as it could, or play co-op, losing the deathmatch element yes, but also losing some annoying problems.

[Cam]

Kyeman is a cool guy, but the first post is all so true....

I'm actually shocked for the fact that the community the whole time was being neglected.

The community is not being neglected.

[BeeJaY22]

you make a good point in saying that this whole coop/source thing could have been handled better by the two developers, among other things - did you have to write an essay mate?

 

 

The thing you have to ask though, is how would you react? Until you've made a mod and attempted to build and manage a community for it it's pretty difficult to know.

 

I mean the bottom line is that they have tried to do good things, and been flamed/abused/bitched at - It's pretty generous of them to just hand out the source of their work for everyone to view and build upon.

 

 

The coop decision was inevitably going to piss people off, but the people who are pissed off don't seem to realise that mta blue will be exactly what they are after.