Opius Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 Well, after playing around with Steve's map stripper, I thought it'd be fun to make an nearly endless bridge. Imagine my shock when I came to the end of it in barely a minute and half. I did a bit of probing and I've discovered something horrible. Map objects will only be created in the original 6000^2 square area provided by the original map. I've got some pictures. Note the coordinates of each screenshot. 2995 units out. Everything is fine here, apart from the fact there's no bridge in front of me where there should be. Camera has crossed -3000 units out. What's left of the bridge disappears. Shot showing almost dead stop after crossing the -3000 line where the dynamic seabed begins. It seems any map object with a midpoint over the boundary will not be created. There is not even an invisible collision model there. And in case you want to make sure I'm not just being stupid (it happens), here are some relevant IPL lines to show there is supposed to be something there. 5243, easttankbrg_segment, 0, 464.38, -2930, 9.0, 0, 0, 0, 1, -15243, easttankbrg_segment, 0, 464.38, -3000, 9.0, 0, 0, 0, 1, -15243, easttankbrg_segment, 0, 464.38, -3070, 9.0, 0, 0, 0, 1, -1 Now, onto possible solutions. (1)Memory hacking. Probably the most beneficial. Both GTA3 and Vice City let you place objects outside the map area even if you couldn't access them, so it's not an engine limitation. However, I have my suspicions that this is related to the NODE files used to divide the map up. Whether there is a simple on/off switch is unknown, and I don't have the resources/skills to do it myself. (2)Placing objects using the SCM. Currently untested. However, the SCM has no problems with placing actors/vehicles outside the boundaries, so at least in theory this works. Please vote this topic up as I feel this is probably the biggest issue facing mappers in the future. Róbert Bock 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Grudge Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 I´d go with memory hacking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fro Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 While the SCM sounds great, it'll be a bit hard to impliment due to all of the coding. The Memory hack sounds like the most direct way, tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Seti Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 umm oh my.. Just when I thought things started looking good.. ahh Memory hacking in this case, I really dont know.. ? The virtual area outside the 6000^2 zoned map is unlimited.. (Googleplex comes to mind here), as I took a jet into that space. Your go on forever. And more I look into SA, the more I get the impression they don't want us modding this time around. I dont mean to be negative, but somehow there must be a way? There must be a hidden boundry config, hardcoded or otherwise. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-m Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 It seems R* are using a 3 level quadtree to split up their map into 64 sections with 750x750 units each. On loading the item placements (from ipl), they are sorted into the tree, based on their coordinates, for faster frustum culling, col testing and so on. Map objects outside the 6000² game area have no section to be put in, so they can't be rendered. This means we either have to increase the tree level to 4 (so we'd have an area of 12000², and 256 sections), or increase the section dimensions (what would be easier, but result in worse performance, obviously). Waiting for a statement from our expert Andy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Seti Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 (edited) followup.. Lets play with water.. sounds like fun, is too Picture 1 Well for starters the game is alot faster Picture 2 what can you see? besides the waters edge? Picture 3 you can only walk so far.. looks scary too.. but you see the boundry button move I slip this in before I noticed Steve's Reply, I can see what your saying to.. Edited July 5, 2005 by Mc-Kay . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dertyjerzian Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 And more I look into SA, the more I get the impression they don'twant us modding this time around. Forgive me for spamming up, but I have legitimecies on the way I think the modding is indeed supported this time around. Like, burger shots share interiors and u need only to throw a marker somewhere that will teleport you there, wah-lah new burger shot. Things like this go on, and now looking at my vice data entries, things look easier to read to me in SA than VC, but I have in no way been anywhere near the stuff you guys have found out. As for that legit part, in your next post, under steve-m's, with those pics, what are you showing there? I imagine someone will ask soon enough and it might as well be me. I'm very very new to the gta ways in terms of envioroments, so I just can't see the point on my own yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DexX Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 However, I have my suspicions that this is related to the NODE files used to divide the map up. It seems R* are using a 3 level quadtree to split up their map into 64 sections with 750x750 units each. Sure enough, nodes0-nodes63.dat in the gta3.img. but has anyone actually looked into the files? i opened a few in winhex, and didnt see anything that was immediately recognizable. if you look through the files, there is a definate structure to them that can be followed.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Seti Posted July 6, 2005 Share Posted July 6, 2005 About my last comment: (This should really be on another forum), Somewhere else I know, Just replying to dertyjerzian Well it's frustration. I have been modding since GTA3 can out, but I enjoy it now the less.. SA brings alot of cool possibilities. Modding SA is going to test how smart we really are. It's annoying to me, with everything I know and have learned from LC to VC, that things just do not seem to work as well like I expected. All you have to do is look after the forums, Car mods right now are a pain in the ass, You can't just replace txd and dff in the gta3.img anymore without deeper modification, same goes for mapping here, and I see you have read my thread also.. the magnificent steve Mind you, if it was not for Steve M or Kcow for Moomapper and the other tool creaters, Modding would not be what it is now. Back to the topic at hand.. nodes0-nodes63.dat? what are we looking for in that, why the nodes file? . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RainingAcid Posted July 6, 2005 Share Posted July 6, 2005 (edited) What about the Zone files? map.zon zoneVegas, 3, 685.0, 476.093, -500.0, 3000.0, 3000.0, 500.0, 3, UNUSEDSF01, 3, -3000.0, -742.306, -500.0, -1270.53, 1530.24, 500.0, 2, UNUSEDSF02, 3, -1270.53, -402.481, -500.0, -1038.45, 832.495, 500.0, 2, UNUSEDSF03, 3, -1038.45, -145.539, -500.0, -897.546, 376.632, 500.0, 2, UNUSEDLA01, 3, 480.0, -3000.0, -500.0, 3000.0, -850.0, 500.0, 1, UNUSEDLA02, 3, 80.0, -2101.61, -500.0, 1075.0, -1239.61, 500.0, 1, UNUSEDend info.zon zoneSUNMA, 0, -2353.17, 2275.79, 0.0, -2153.17, 2475.79, 200.0, 1, SUNMASUNNN, 0, -2741.07, 2175.15, 0.0, -2353.17, 2722.79, 200.0, 1, SUNNNBATTP, 0, -2741.07, 1268.41, -4.57764e-005, -2533.04, 1490.47, 200.0, 1, BATTPPARA, 0, -2741.07, 793.411, -6.10352e-005, -2533.04, 1268.41, 200.0, 1, PARACIVI, 0, -2741.07, 458.411, -7.62939e-005, -2533.04, 793.411, 200.0, 1, CIVIBAYV, 0, -2994.49, 458.411, -6.10352e-005, -2741.07, 1339.61, 200.0, 1, BAYVCITYS, 0, -2867.85, 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July 6, 2005 by RainingAcid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illspirit Posted July 6, 2005 Share Posted July 6, 2005 The nodesX.dat seem to be compiled paths, and I seriously doubt they have a thing to do with rendering in the frustums. Chances are, it's harcoded, but that doesn't make much sense since cars/peds can appear out there. Perhaps map objects only appear if they're inside a map.zon box? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-m Posted July 6, 2005 Share Posted July 6, 2005 Sure enough, nodes0-nodes63.dat in the gta3.img. but has anyone actually looked into the files? i opened a few in winhex, and didnt see anything that was immediately recognizable. if you look through the files, there is a definate structure to them that can be followed.. Didn't have much time to decode the format yet, but it seems they just contain the compiled path nodes, with one file per section, since the game probably streams them as well. Paths are a huge bunch of data, that is only needed when peds/cars/boats are actually rendered, except for some mission specific stuff (like scripted cars following paths to get to their target), so that sounds logical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadropheniac90 Posted July 6, 2005 Share Posted July 6, 2005 Memory hacking sounds really good, don't know anything about it though. Coding could be an alternative too but then everyone who would want to exceed the boundaries would have to start a new game. So I think memory hacking is the best option. And Mc-Kay, if you're gonna put it in the SA engine, you are gonna replace San Andreas right? So it would be big enough anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan! Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 Couldn't we do it a lazy way by manipulating the midpoint of an object so that it can extend out past the boundary? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opius Posted July 11, 2005 Author Share Posted July 11, 2005 No. (1)It really screws up the games streaming/culling procedures and is likely to disappear when you look away from the midpoint. (2)At best you'd only getting another 300 units out of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dertyjerzian Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 No. (1)It really screws up the games streaming/culling procedures and is likely to disappear when you look away from the midpoint. (2)At best you'd only getting another 300 units out of the world. is it possible to use all of the tools for mods and adjust all the handling, waves/water level and so on to accomodate a scale down of sa to fit it within 1/4 the original space, then that whole vice/lc thing could fit in 1/2 and myriad could take the final slice of the italian love cake. No? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy80586 Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 There are a few areas with the 3000 boundaries in the .exe... but we need to make more 750x750 sections... either make more of them or change them to sections of 1500x1500 or something and hope the frame rate of the game isnt reduced to 25%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dertyjerzian Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Hey guys, haven't been over to this topic in a while until I brought up scaling the maps down, but I'm back spamming it up again I was wondering if someone could send me a pm if they have a little spare time and tell me what methods you guys are using to get these maps at least into the game area. That would make my day like cherry jolly ranchers I know how big all my stuff has to be now, just want some help on the GTA SA required actions. I'm a good sponge right now, it would really benefit in my writings and contributions that I don't need to learn then unlearn methods from the old games Thanks guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wijiwang Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 Will peds and cars spawn outside the boundary? Since someone was talking about stripping the map and putting liberty and vice in it, just wondering if they could be added 'outside the map'.. This would put the brakes on that idea.. If it is possible to strip the map and go indefinately (with limits on the amount of stuff in the map itself), it would be great if a front end loader could be made to switch between different maps without having to use different installations of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fro Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 If push comes to shove, we can probably code up some cities or something as in "Sain Marks Bistro". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacky Posted July 16, 2007 Share Posted July 16, 2007 I'm sorry for bringing this topic back from the dead, but can somebody tell me how each tree contains 750 square units. According to my calculations: 3000 square units in total 3000/3 = 1000 (3 trees) 1000/64 = 15.625 (64 sections per tree) Am i missing something? Also i can find no reference to a 750 (float) in the entire executable, and only a couple of 750's which are probably meaningless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-m Posted July 16, 2007 Share Posted July 16, 2007 Nobody mentioned 3 trees. One quadtree with 3 levels contains 64 leaves on the lowest level (4^3 = 64), but that was only a guess anyway. Fact is, there are 64 path node files, covering an area of 750x750 units each. And 750² x 64 = 6000², which is the map area. The conclusion from 2 years ago was that this very quadtree (if it exists) might as well be used for the map objects, hence them disappearing outside the +/-3000 borders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacky Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 (edited) Well there is definitely something to do with quadtree's in the rendering (at least for the nodes) as seen by this disassembly: .text:00552C39 push offset aQuadtreenodes ; "QuadTreeNodes".text:00552C3E push 400 ; QuadTreeNodes .text:00552C43 mov ecx, eax .text:00552C45 call AllocateRenderTrees Edited July 18, 2007 by Sacky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacky Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 OK lately I've been trying to work this out, and to those people who say it's got something to do with the nodes%d.dat I disagree. You see I looked up the string in IDA: .rdata:00859AB4 aDataPathsNodes db 'data\paths\nodes%d.dat',0.rdata:00859ACB align 4 No References what so ever, and I cannot find any instances of them even being loaded. They seem to be remnants of one of Rockstars experiment. Also some people claimed that IPL's that go beyond the map bounds will never get loaded into the game, this is incorrect because as I have found by experimenting the game seems to parse all IPL data into the structure whether its outside the bounds or not, and then attempt to render it just like every other IPL. Good news however is I pinpointed the function that undoubtedly has something to do with the Map Bounds, 0x553F60. I'll report more if I ever get it to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-m Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 No References what so ever, and I cannot find any instances of them even being loaded. I'm not quite sure I understand what you're on about. The game definitely does use the nodes*.dat files, just those inside an .img archive, not the separate files in data\paths\. People have been making custom SA paths for over a year now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacky Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 I'm not quite sure I understand what you're on about. The game definitely does use the nodes*.dat files, just those inside an .img archive, not the separate files in data\paths\. People have been making custom SA paths for over a year now... Ah, sorry I never knew they were loaded through IMG's, I rely to much on IDA , are there any tools that allow you to view the floats inside a path so I can search for the structures of them in memory and see if they mingle with the IPL's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-m Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 The path format is well documented at our modding wiki, and I believe they are stored in memory in pretty much the same format. AFAIK there are scripting opcodes that return the nearest point on a path to any given point, or at least there are commands that make peds walk there, so that might be a good starting point to find path related stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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