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Map objects not being created outside boundaries


Opius

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Well, after playing around with Steve's map stripper, I thought it'd be fun to make an nearly endless bridge. Imagine my shock when I came to the end of it in barely a minute and half. I did a bit of probing and I've discovered something horrible.

 

Map objects will only be created in the original 6000^2 square area provided by the original map.

 

I've got some pictures. Note the coordinates of each screenshot.

user posted image

2995 units out. Everything is fine here, apart from the fact there's no bridge in front of me where there should be.

 

user posted image

Camera has crossed -3000 units out. What's left of the bridge disappears.

 

user posted image

Shot showing almost dead stop after crossing the -3000 line where the dynamic seabed begins.

 

It seems any map object with a midpoint over the boundary will not be created. There is not even an invisible collision model there.

 

And in case you want to make sure I'm not just being stupid (it happens), here are some relevant IPL lines to show there is supposed to be something there.

 

5243, easttankbrg_segment, 0, 464.38, -2930, 9.0, 0, 0, 0, 1, -15243, easttankbrg_segment, 0, 464.38, -3000, 9.0, 0, 0, 0, 1, -15243, easttankbrg_segment, 0, 464.38, -3070, 9.0, 0, 0, 0, 1, -1

 

 

Now, onto possible solutions.

(1)Memory hacking. Probably the most beneficial. Both GTA3 and Vice City let you place objects outside the map area even if you couldn't access them, so it's not an engine limitation. However, I have my suspicions that this is related to the NODE files used to divide the map up. Whether there is a simple on/off switch is unknown, and I don't have the resources/skills to do it myself.

 

(2)Placing objects using the SCM. Currently untested. However, the SCM has no problems with placing actors/vehicles outside the boundaries, so at least in theory this works.

 

Please vote this topic up as I feel this is probably the biggest issue facing mappers in the future.

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While the SCM sounds great, it'll be a bit hard to impliment due to all of the coding. The Memory hack sounds like the most direct way, tho.

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umm oh my..

 

Just when I thought things started looking good.. ahh sad.gif

 

Memory hacking in this case, I really dont know.. ?

 

The virtual area outside the 6000^2 zoned map is unlimited..

 

(Googleplex comes to mind here), as I took a jet into that space.

 

Your go on forever. smile.gif

 

And more I look into SA, the more I get the impression they don't

want us modding this time around.

 

I dont mean to be negative, but somehow there must be a way?

 

There must be a hidden boundry config, hardcoded or otherwise.

 

 

 

 

.

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It seems R* are using a 3 level quadtree to split up their map into 64 sections with 750x750 units each. On loading the item placements (from ipl), they are sorted into the tree, based on their coordinates, for faster frustum culling, col testing and so on. Map objects outside the 6000² game area have no section to be put in, so they can't be rendered. This means we either have to increase the tree level to 4 (so we'd have an area of 12000², and 256 sections), or increase the section dimensions (what would be easier, but result in worse performance, obviously).

 

Waiting for a statement from our expert Andy... wink.gif

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followup..

 

Lets play with water.. sounds like fun, is too smile.gif

 

Picture 1

 

user posted image

 

Well for starters the game is alot faster

 

Picture 2

 

user posted image

 

what can you see? besides the waters edge?

 

Picture 3

user posted image

 

you can only walk so far.. looks scary too..

but you see the boundry button move smile.gif

 

 

I slip this in before I noticed Steve's Reply, I can see

what your saying to..

Edited by Mc-Kay

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dertyjerzian
And more I look into SA, the more I get the impression they don't

want us modding this time around.

Forgive me for spamming up, but I have legitimecies on the way confused.gif

 

I think the modding is indeed supported this time around. Like, burger shots share interiors and u need only to throw a marker somewhere that will teleport you there, wah-lah new burger shot. Things like this go on, and now looking at my vice data entries, things look easier to read to me in SA than VC, but I have in no way been anywhere near the stuff you guys have found out.

 

As for that legit part, in your next post, under steve-m's, with those pics, what are you showing there? I imagine someone will ask soon enough and it might as well be me. I'm very very new to the gta ways in terms of envioroments, so I just can't see the point on my own yet.

Bandy Ban-Ban-Ban. Chugga Chugga Woot Woot.
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However, I have my suspicions that this is related to the NODE files used to divide the map up.

 

It seems R* are using a 3 level quadtree to split up their map into 64 sections with 750x750 units each.

Sure enough, nodes0-nodes63.dat in the gta3.img.

 

but has anyone actually looked into the files? i opened a few in winhex, and didnt see anything that was immediately recognizable. if you look through the files, there is a definate structure to them that can be followed..

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About my last comment: (This should really be on another forum), Somewhere else I know, Just replying to dertyjerzian smile.gif

 

Well it's frustration.

 

I have been modding since GTA3 can out, but I enjoy it now the less.. SA brings alot of cool possibilities.

 

Modding SA is going to test how smart we really are.

 

It's annoying to me, with everything I know and have learned from LC to VC, that things just do not seem to work as well like I expected.

 

All you have to do is look after the forums, Car mods right now are a pain in the ass, You can't just replace txd and dff in the gta3.img anymore without deeper modification, same goes for mapping here, and I see you have read my thread also..

 

 

the magnificent steve

 

Mind you, if it was not for Steve M or Kcow for Moomapper and the other tool creaters, Modding would not be what it is now.

 

Back to the topic at hand.. nodes0-nodes63.dat?

 

what are we looking for in that, why the nodes file?

.

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RainingAcid

What about the Zone files?

 

map.zon

 

zoneVegas, 3, 685.0, 476.093, -500.0, 3000.0, 3000.0, 500.0, 3, UNUSEDSF01, 3, -3000.0, -742.306, -500.0, -1270.53, 1530.24, 500.0, 2, UNUSEDSF02, 3, -1270.53, -402.481, -500.0, -1038.45, 832.495, 500.0, 2, UNUSEDSF03, 3, -1038.45, -145.539, -500.0, -897.546, 376.632, 500.0, 2, UNUSEDLA01, 3, 480.0, -3000.0, -500.0, 3000.0, -850.0, 500.0, 1, UNUSEDLA02, 3, 80.0, -2101.61, -500.0, 1075.0, -1239.61, 500.0, 1, UNUSEDend

 

 

info.zon

 

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Edited by RainingAcid
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The nodesX.dat seem to be compiled paths, and I seriously doubt they have a thing to do with rendering in the frustums. Chances are, it's harcoded, but that doesn't make much sense since cars/peds can appear out there. Perhaps map objects only appear if they're inside a map.zon box?

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Sure enough, nodes0-nodes63.dat in the gta3.img.

 

but has anyone actually looked into the files? i opened a few in winhex, and didnt see anything that was immediately recognizable. if you look through the files, there is a definate structure to them that can be followed..

Didn't have much time to decode the format yet, but it seems they just contain the compiled path nodes, with one file per section, since the game probably streams them as well. Paths are a huge bunch of data, that is only needed when peds/cars/boats are actually rendered, except for some mission specific stuff (like scripted cars following paths to get to their target), so that sounds logical.

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Quadropheniac90
Memory hacking sounds really good, don't know anything about it though. Coding could be an alternative too but then everyone who would want to exceed the boundaries would have to start a new game. So I think memory hacking is the best option. And Mc-Kay, if you're gonna put it in the SA engine, you are gonna replace San Andreas right? So it would be big enough anyway.
user posted image
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Couldn't we do it a lazy way by manipulating the midpoint of an object so that it can extend out past the boundary?

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No.

 

(1)It really screws up the games streaming/culling procedures and is likely to disappear when you look away from the midpoint.

 

(2)At best you'd only getting another 300 units out of the world.

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dertyjerzian

 

No.

 

(1)It really screws up the games streaming/culling procedures and is likely to disappear when you look away from the midpoint.

 

(2)At best you'd only getting another 300 units out of the world.

is it possible to use all of the tools for mods and adjust all the handling, waves/water level and so on to accomodate a scale down of sa to fit it within 1/4 the original space, then that whole vice/lc thing could fit in 1/2 and myriad could take the final slice of the italian love cake. No?

Bandy Ban-Ban-Ban. Chugga Chugga Woot Woot.
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There are a few areas with the 3000 boundaries in the .exe... but we need to make more 750x750 sections... either make more of them or change them to sections of 1500x1500 or something and hope the frame rate of the game isnt reduced to 25%.

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dertyjerzian

Hey guys, haven't been over to this topic in a while until I brought up scaling the maps down, but I'm back spamming it up again confused.gif

 

I was wondering if someone could send me a pm if they have a little spare time and tell me what methods you guys are using to get these maps at least into the game area. That would make my day like cherry jolly ranchers biggrin.gif

 

I know how big all my stuff has to be now, just want some help on the GTA SA required actions. I'm a good sponge right now, it would really benefit in my writings and contributions that I don't need to learn then unlearn methods from the old games confused.gif

Thanks guys.

 

Bandy Ban-Ban-Ban. Chugga Chugga Woot Woot.
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  • 2 weeks later...

Will peds and cars spawn outside the boundary? Since someone was talking about stripping the map and putting liberty and vice in it, just wondering if they could be added 'outside the map'.. This would put the brakes on that idea..

 

If it is possible to strip the map and go indefinately (with limits on the amount of stuff in the map itself), it would be great if a front end loader could be made to switch between different maps without having to use different installations of the game.

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If push comes to shove, we can probably code up some cities or something as in "Sain Marks Bistro".

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  • 1 year later...

I'm sorry for bringing this topic back from the dead, but can somebody tell me how each tree contains 750 square units.

 

According to my calculations:

 

3000 square units in total

3000/3 = 1000 (3 trees)

1000/64 = 15.625 (64 sections per tree)

 

Am i missing something? Also i can find no reference to a 750 (float) in the entire executable, and only a couple of 750's which are probably meaningless.

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Nobody mentioned 3 trees. One quadtree with 3 levels contains 64 leaves on the lowest level (4^3 = 64), but that was only a guess anyway. Fact is, there are 64 path node files, covering an area of 750x750 units each. And 750² x 64 = 6000², which is the map area. The conclusion from 2 years ago was that this very quadtree (if it exists) might as well be used for the map objects, hence them disappearing outside the +/-3000 borders.

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Well there is definitely something to do with quadtree's in the rendering (at least for the nodes) as seen by this disassembly:

 

 

.text:00552C39                push    offset aQuadtreenodes ; "QuadTreeNodes"

.text:00552C3E                push    400            ; QuadTreeNodes

.text:00552C43                mov    ecx, eax

.text:00552C45                call    AllocateRenderTrees

Edited by Sacky
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  • 5 months later...

OK lately I've been trying to work this out, and to those people who say it's got something to do with the nodes%d.dat I disagree.

 

You see I looked up the string in IDA:

 

 

.rdata:00859AB4 aDataPathsNodes db 'data\paths\nodes%d.dat',0

.rdata:00859ACB                align 4

 

No References what so ever, and I cannot find any instances of them even being loaded. They seem to be remnants of one of Rockstars experiment. Also some people claimed that IPL's that go beyond the map bounds will never get loaded into the game, this is incorrect because as I have found by experimenting the game seems to parse all IPL data into the structure whether its outside the bounds or not, and then attempt to render it just like every other IPL.

 

Good news however is I pinpointed the function that undoubtedly has something to do with the Map Bounds, 0x553F60. I'll report more if I ever get it to work.

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No References what so ever, and I cannot find any instances of them even being loaded.

I'm not quite sure I understand what you're on about. The game definitely does use the nodes*.dat files, just those inside an .img archive, not the separate files in data\paths\. People have been making custom SA paths for over a year now...

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I'm not quite sure I understand what you're on about. The game definitely does use the nodes*.dat files, just those inside an .img archive, not the separate files in data\paths\. People have been making custom SA paths for over a year now...

 

Ah, sorry I never knew they were loaded through IMG's, I rely to much on IDA tounge.gif, are there any tools that allow you to view the floats inside a path so I can search for the structures of them in memory and see if they mingle with the IPL's?

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The path format is well documented at our modding wiki, and I believe they are stored in memory in pretty much the same format. AFAIK there are scripting opcodes that return the nearest point on a path to any given point, or at least there are commands that make peds walk there, so that might be a good starting point to find path related stuff.

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