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jheath

Shutting down Guantanamo

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jheath

I just read that Bush is beginning to talk about shutting down Gitmo, partly in response to pressure from human rights supporters, such as Jimmy Carter.

 

MSNBC article

 

Now that the topic is back in the news, I think it is a good time to reflect on Gitmo's legacy. Did this prison outside the legal system make America safer, or more threatened? Was the information gleened through torture reliable, and help prevent attacks? Or did it serve more to undermine America's cause abroad, while eroding freedoms at home? If the prison is closed, will we be adding to the ranks of terrorists through the freed detainees? Or will we be diminishing their ranks by improving our relations with the Arab street?

 

That should start the ball rolling. I'll post my own thoughts when (or rather if) a debate starts going.

 

 

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Kayuni
I think it should stay as it is. Terrorists hate the American lifestyle, so I doubt closing Guantanamo would do much, except, as you mentioned, add to the terrorist ranks. The information may not always be reliable, and the way that they operate may sometimes be unjust, but it's a palace compared to what some of the soldiers stationed in the Middle-East get; such as long, painful torture, followed by murder by decapitation or another means. Though if valid information was give a dollar value, the prison would not be worth keeping open from a monetary perspective; but in retrospect, the information gained from the prisoenrs may have prevented something similar to 9/11.

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spoof

 

I think it should stay as it is. Terrorists hate the American lifestyle, so I doubt closing Guantanamo would do much, except, as you mentioned, add to the terrorist ranks.

Erm��..............OK

 

Considering that tens of thousands of Americans are dying each year as a result of "The American lifestyle", I wouldn't think that any terrorist could hope to achieve more.

 

If I were a terrorist, I wouldn't be training to make bombs that could kill a few dozen people, I would be buying shares in McDonalds and Burger King.

 

 

 

 

 

Rumsfeld spoke a day after saying he was unaware of anyone in the Bush administration discussing closing the base in Cuba

 

This would be the same Rumsfeld that sold weapons to said terrorists; I apologise, they were friends when the weapons were sold (allegedly).

 

 

If history teaches us one thing, it is that all those institutions of "human right violations" don't suddenly close down until they are made to close down. Talking about it generally accomplishes nothing.

 

"We're looking into it", "an internal review of policy is underway", "we are taking the allegations most seriously and are taking steps to address them" blah blah blah.

 

People are having their civil liberties denied. They are being tortured and some are dying - even when there is no evidence (after several years) that they have ever done anything wrong.

 

A lot has been done under the banner of 9/11 - I don't think the average person truly understands just how much they have lost in terms of rights and civil liberties.

 

 

"We're exploring all alternatives as to how best to do the main objective, which is to protect America," Bush said on Fox News Channel when asked whether it should be shut down. "What we don't want to do is let somebody out that comes back and harms us."

 

If such is the case, why is Bush himself not currently residing at Guantanamo? dontgetit.gif

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jheath

Thanks Kayuni and spoof.

 

My thoughts: Guantanamo has done nothing but undermine the war on terror.

 

Information extracted through torture is famously unreliable. Besides, if they wanted information, the Pentagon and the CIA have drugs and mind-control techiques far more effective for getting answers than the brute techniques used in their lawless gulag. I also question the value of any information we *do* get from those detainees... some men will say anything to avoid pain, and they were captured two, three, even four years ago. And the terrorists networks they were supposedly part of are incredibly fluid and decentralized; they can change radically from month to month. The only way to truly get information is to abandon our outdated Cold War high-tech espionage mentality, and do the hard, dangerous, inglorious legwork of infiltration.

 

As far as I see it, the US is using "interrogation" as just an excuse to vindictively torture and humiliate the men they indisciminately captured. It may feel good for the guards to kick a handcuffed, blindfolded Arab in the stomach, and doubtless many who lost family in the attacks would love to join them, but it is getting us nowhere when it comes to fighting terrorism.

 

In return for this pleasure of torturing men who may or may not be guilty, the US has handed its enemies the perfect propaganda tool. Right now around the world, Guantanamo Bay and Abu Gharib are the symbols of America, not the Statue of Liberty. They are constant reminders of the fact that, while America insists on everyone else playing by the rules, it never seriously considered doing as it preached. It is an America that only pays lipservice to the rule of law... an America that the Founding Fathers would scarcely recognize. The principles behind Guantanamo Bay are a vicious betrayal of the principles on which America was founded and achieved greatness.

 

If we (and by that I mean all civilization, Western and otherwise) are to defeat terrorism, we cannot just kill terrorists... we must destroy their base of support. What concerns me is not just bin Laden, but the throngs of people who danced in the streets when they heard of the attacks. We cannot win the propaganda war when we have Guantanamo on our hands. It must be shut down if we are to win.

 

 

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just another thug

It's about time Guantanamo is shut down. The US hasn't been following the Geneva code with the prisoners held there, which is hypocritical. We signed the Geneva accords with intentions of having fair treatment of soldiers. Terrorists, no matter what you have heard, are still human. Most of these men have nothing pinned on them, yet the cerial killers and rapist from within the country live better than the "terrorist" who has yet been tied to any illegal activity.

 

It is also another rallying point for a growing population of the world who hates America. They can look on Guantanamo and talk about how the US tortures its captives, which is no help to America.

 

The government is fighting the American population more than the Arab population. They are fighting harder to keep American interest and support high more than they are of helping relations and creating better ties with the Arabs.

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Forelli_Boy

Of course if we try to make "better ties" with the Arabs, it'll just look like we're kissing up to the OPEC nations to get more oil, won't it? And by closing Gitmo, we'll look like we've succumbed, at least in part, to the Al-Qaeda threat. They'll claim a victory and add more to their ranks anyway, regardless of whether it includes released Gitmo "prisoners."

 

Rather than give up on the situation we ought to find a way to revise the methods of interrogation to fit within the general 'boundaries' of human rights.

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Red Hat Girl

I know I'm participating in this a bit late, but I had read about Dilawar

 

( http://rwor.org/a/005/united-states-of-torture.htm )

 

and how this has become and issue recently again. I also read this article:

 

http://rwor.org/a/005/brutal-logic-torture-madness.htm

 

"On another level, the team now running the White House had been looking for an opportunity to change all the rules of the game."

 

I thought this was particularly interesting side I hadn't seen before in other debate around torture.

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Lazzo

 

I know I'm participating in this a bit late, but I had read about Dilawar

 

( http://rwor.org/a/005/united-states-of-torture.htm )

 

and how this has become and issue recently again.  I also read this article:

 

http://rwor.org/a/005/brutal-logic-torture-madness.htm

 

"On another level, the team now running the White House had been looking for an opportunity to change all the rules of the game."

 

I thought this was particularly interesting side I hadn't seen before in other debate around torture.

Could you provide other sources beside a United States Communist party website?

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jheath

Well, try googling it. NY Times archive

 

My problem with Guantanamo isn't so much that torture occurs there; my problem is that we are paying the high moral costs of torturing others and trampling the rule of law, all without any gain. Guantanamo is utterly useless and self-defeating. It isn't helping save American lives or bring terrorists to justice... all it does is undermine America's war on terror, and the freedoms it claims to love so much.

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Red Hat Girl

One of the articles cites the New York Times article, but its been so all over the news that I wasn't providing the only source on this, just different and deeper perspectives and what spoke particularly sharp to me.

 

Anyway, I mainly wanted to let you all know that today is the UN International Day of Support of Victims of Torture

 

(http://www.amnestyusa.org/stoptorture/organizingguideb.pdf

 

((not a communist website, unless you are a rabid rightwing fanatic who considers Amnesty International to be communist))

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Lazzo
((not a communist website, unless you are a rabid rightwing fanatic who considers Amnesty International to be communist))

I'm very far from the left and very far from the right. I consider myself Independent. Anyone who lets a party preference dictate their beliefs are one of the saddest sights. I prefer sites that don't call for revolution and what not...it's not that I don't agree with revolution because sometimes in certain situations it's necessary but when it isn't...that’s when there's a bit of a problem.

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Magephil

Yeesh, I hate to get off topic, but amnesty international is way too wishy-washy and idealistic for my taste. I mean, their high-level spokesperson wouldn't even condemn suicide bombing in an interview. confused.gif I mean, come on.

 

On-topic: If America really wants to be respected in the world, it had better treat it's enemies and prisoners like human beings, or they will just be in the same cycle of "Abu Gharibs, Guantanamo bay, etc" abuse scandals that only serve to incite arab-islamic resentment against the West.

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addisonpeterson

I don't think gitmo should be shut down because they are holding people who they think have a threat to the United States and maybe our allies, but I do think that prisoners shouldn't be tortured unless there is really good reason to say that they have information leading to an terrorist attack. The prisoners should be treated fairly and if there is prisoners there that have been there for years and pose no real threat to the U.S. like some of Iraq's and Afghan soldiers then they should be released to there home countries.

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ISuck

Anybody find it funny that the current outrage over Guantanamo Bay started over a bunch of fake allegations and a manufactured news story?

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