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Certainty of Atheism


BenMillard

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Max1millionP
A true sign of genius is the ability to refute other people arguments, no matter how simple or illogical, while still maintaining your composure.

 

No matter how intellegent you were in certain respects, Mortukai, you were still an elitist asshole and you wont be missed. 

 

if nothing else, you need some one to play the devil's advocate.

No one needs to play devil's advocate

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You just said that God did not create anyone, the first "human" came from a sperm and an egg. Where did the sperm and the egg come from? It's just simple logic my friends. Matter can not be created, nor destroyed. It's a simple scientific formula. The way you guys are arguing, your making it seem like all the matter in the universe was just there, from no where. Who's to say that the universe never stops?

 

Lets touch on a few key points that you are trying to tell people.

At first, you said that the universe contains everything. You know this... how? Right, you don't. Nobody can comprehend the sheer size of the universe no doubt, but we have no idea if it ends, and if it does, where does it end. No human will ever know if the universe ends. Even traveling at light speed, It would take 100,000,000 years to reach the other end of the milky way galaxy. You cannot comprehend the amount of matter and mass that exist in the universe. So who's to say it was just there one day?

 

Many say science. Well, that's the problem. Everything that science states is against what your arguing for. As I stated earlier, matter can not be created, nor destroyed. So, how was it just there? All the matter that is whirling around in space, and all the matter that makes up every celestial object in the universe is the same matter that came from the big bang. Where did it come from, I ask you.

 

Now, we'll go onto intelligent life. Where did it come from? Some argue evolution, some argue fertilization, and some argue with many other invalid points. The problem is, for these life processes to happen, something had to create the first sperm and egg, the first microbiological organism, the first walking human. Life did not just form one day, and atoms didn't get together one day and say, "Hey, lets form an organism!"

 

 

Just think, is it really possible for a single man/thing to sit there and control EVERYTHING that goes on in the world at any given time?

Who's to say that God can control everything at once? Which is why prayers can't always be answered. If you do to much, the universe comes dependent, and if you do to little, the universe ceases to believe that such a being every existed. That's where you guys come in, but I still find it ridicules that you can say "It was science."

 

 

The universe contains absolutely everything

Where did that crawl from? How do you know that the universe contains everything? Have you been to all 4 corners? Or in case of a circle, around the perimeter? No, you haven't. The reason you guys can get away with what you believe around here, is because so many other people around here believe the same. Sure, there is no real way to prove there is a god, but there is no way to prove there isn't one, either...

 

 

My counter to creationism being required to explain the finite nature of the universe is not complicated. Because the universe contains everything and is finite in every way, all properties of everything are therefore finite. If any property of any entity was infinite it could not be contained within the universe - and therefore could not exist.

First of all, by saying something is "finite" is saying that it is limited. There are a finite number of apples in a basket. So, if something does end, how can it contain everything?

 

 

Actually, despite his poor reasoning andsimple stupidity

Your calling me stupid because I don't believe in something as ridicules as atheism? That's sad, sad my friend. This country was founded on christianity, and christian morals, how can you forget that?

 

I'm sorry if I'm going off the bible to much, because the bible isn't true word for word, and I think it was ment to be a guideline, rather than something to just look at and believe. How can you guys be so certain that a god does not exist. Well, we won't know, and the only way we will know is in death, and that time comes for everyone of us. I will believe in God until the day I die, and nothing will change that.

 

Thanks for your time, and please, don't bash me. I gave my opinion just as you guys stated yours.

You know, Kahuna, that it was neigh on 400 years ago that people were being burned for even thinking that the earth was not the center of the solar systen/universe.

 

Science explains things. However, your god (not capitalized for a reason), does not explain anything. What kind of a god is that that kills innocent babies?

 

You know, now all good christens are against baby-killing? God did it to the egyptians! (Supposedly, at least).

 

Christianity is flawed. Religion is flawed. There is no god.

 

The only thing that has to change in science is the fact that matter cannot be created. It will be disproven sooner or later.

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You know, Kahuna, that it was neigh on 400 years ago that people were being burned for even thinking that the earth was not the center of the solar systen/universe.

 

Science explains things. However, your god (not capitalized for a reason), does not explain anything. What kind of a god is that that kills innocent babies?

 

You know, now all good christens are against baby-killing? God did it to the egyptians! (Supposedly, at least).

 

Christianity is flawed. Religion is flawed. There is no god.

 

The only thing that has to change in science is the fact that matter cannot be created. It will be disproven sooner or later.

Physically prove to me that there is no god. Sit there, and prove it.

 

Science can't explain everything, like you said...so that means, nothing will ever be really answered. There are things we'll never be able to touch, or even grasp. You know there are more then 3 dimensions right? You yourself can't physically explore, or even see them. No one can you tell us that it explains everything. Our existence is finite, so we will never know everything because we are on a limited existence here.

 

You can't prove it to me.

 

A god can't be proven. But neither can the existence of no god.

 

I think many of you forget this arguement is at a stalemate for the simple fact that it is impossible to prove either point.

 

Oh, about "baby killers." Who are you to say all "good" Christians disbelieve in abortions? I'm sure there is many an atheist who thinks it is morally wrong. It doesn't make them a Christian either.

 

Religious books are meant to be interpreted. Some people interpret them literally, and that's where problems come into effect. People will abide by the things in them, and it's scary. Only a dolt would read it word for word, and take it into reality. Let's read the Illiad and believe it word for word. People confuse this, it's meant to be interpreted, and that is all. All holy books have many parables. Who is to say that the entire book isn't just a big parable? Lessons to live your life by. Not literally believe them.

Edited by Lazzo
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Hello Gangstarr Guru, , you was asking if the meaning of my life is to blindly obey a set of rules that some people a thousand years ago wrote for me.

Well thats where faith comes in. I think everybodys life has a certan amount of faith in it. And we take a lot for granted too.

Every time you turn on a light, do you think to yourself, will it come on?

If you believe in sciance, you don't really know if they are telling you the thruth about everything.

"We are all blind. Like the clothes you are wearing now, thrift or not, you're just a product. We all are, right down to our shampoo". but don't be sold.

Lazzo, speaking of products, what do you think of millionares constantly begging?

but thats another topic.

So anyway, the world is blind to everything.. how much do you really know?

I do know this..

Just like you said Gangstarr Guru, " there are motherf*ckers fighting wars, killing millions, and all sorts of bad sh*t that stunts progress of humanity"; But it's not all based on a bunch of he said she said that happened a thousand or more years ago.

Good or evil, what will you choose? Will what you choose efect others in a good way or a bad way? and do you care. wars and killing are because people don't care.

We want...and thats bad because we want what we want and will do whatever it takes to get it.

Would Gods law that I bebieve in stop it?... No!

This is what I believe..

Beyond the will of God and the will of Satan, there is the will of man. Since the fall, mankind did not want to retain the knowledge of God and therefore became a slave of his own degenerate mind. Ignoring God’s righteousness, man set out to establish his own righteousness and do what seemed right to him. Influenced by Satan, the will of man has brought suffering and sorrow and ruin to every generation. Man as a fallen creature, living in a fallen world, is primarily responsible for the chaos and misery which has affected eveybody.

So Tehhunter, why do you blame God for what we do?.

Everything we do in this world is what we want, not what God wants.

And if you create somethimg and you want to distroy part of it because it is not working the way you want, it is yours, thats up to you. Not the creation it self.

God let us be free to do in this world what we want, so why do you think he is controlling it? Freedom is not control.

And do you really think that God ansers all the prayers of this world? We rejected him, remember?.

And if you read the bible, tehhunter, and study what is for you, Romans, books by paul, and not what is history, or what is an example for you, you will see God explans everything. why do everyone think the bible has to be interpreted? God knows what kind of people will be reading it. And people that are slow, depend on the church, but the church (most of them) just want to make money. And just because you can't create matter, don't mean it can't be created. Can you create anything that was not put here for you to create something out of? Come on, you can't take everything literally. There is a such thing as a figure of speech. Can you understand?

God is no respecter of persons. Law is no respecter of persons. Justice is no respecter of persons. If it were possible for you to be good for one million years and then you sinned one little sin, Justice would not care about the million years--it would only care about the sin. A million years of doing good is not the concern of Justice. Sin is! Justice has to be satisfied or it would not be Just. If the justice of God would fail just one time, God Himself would become a sinner.

God told Adam that he would die IN the day that he ate of the forbidden fruit. He did not say that Adam would die if he murdered, or committed adultery. Adam rebelled against Heaven by deliberately disobeying a plain command. He knew in advance that this would bring instant spiritual death. He made a choice with his eyes wide open. Though Adam had been created "in the image of God," when he fathered a son, it was "in his own image" ...in the image of fallen Adam. Here is the first indication that the sin nature is trasmitted, not from the female parent but from the male. Through conception and birth you and I received a lost, fallen nature. Make no mistake: "All sinned." It is a reference to our fall in Adam. We were seminally present in Adam's loins, as much a part of him as hands and feet, as thoughts and actions.

Adam didn’t need a whole lot of sins to bring on spiritual death...just one. Since Adam was all of the human race there was, when he sinned...the race sinned. You and I sinned. Adam became a sinner because he sinned. You and I sin because we are sinners by nature, sinners by conception and birth. The fact that all people are born sinners, and therefore sin, explains the torment that is human history. I herd that it could be as many as twenty or more wars going on in the world right now. If it takes a minimum of two nations to fight a war, does this mean that at least 40 or more of the two hundred and seventy-three nations of the world are locked in combat? Even if some of the wars are civil wars, this much conflict demonstrates that there is something radically wrong with the human race. In this "most enlightened century" four hundred million people have died violent deaths. The second "War to end all wars" took from fifty to eighty million lives, depending on which chronicler is counting. The "peace" that ensued has taken more millions of lives than the war did! Mental health institutions, because they cannot accommodate the flood of people requiring their services, are graduating clients in three weeks that ought to be locked up for a lifetime. Child abuse is widespread, divorce rampant, teen age pregnancy prolific, and sexually transmitted diseases epidemic. Our streets and even our homes are no longer safe. The womb, designed to nurture and protect, has become a place of danger, dismemberment, and death. Public schools attack "knowledge, religion, and morality," the very things they were invented to promote. A doctor can grow rich by taking more lives than a thousand other doctors will ever save. Food exporting nations become starving countries because outside forces with foreign philosophies force "improved economic policies" on them. Parents kill children and children kill parents. Prisons overflow. All of this cruelty, brutality, and bloodshed flow from one sin, the first sin of Adam, the first sin of the human race...your first sin and mine. Surely the debacle that is human history, written in blood and tears, built of broken dreams held together with heartache, bears witness to the Bible’s claim that earth needs a Heaven-sent Savior. But supposing there were no wars, no prison-camps, no venereal disease, no mental illness. Would man not need a Savior? Not everyone enslaves, tortures, kills his fellow man. Not everyone soils himself by engaging in sex outside of marriage. Not everyone commits crimes punishable by society. Yet everyone is lost. Equally lost. The moral person is as Hell-bent and as Hell-deserving as the immoral person. When God describes the righteousness that He has a right to require of man, all stand condemned. None but Christ has ever satisfied the Law’s requirement to love God perfectly and our neighbor as we already do ourselves.

If this world were characterized by morality instead of immorality and peace instead of war, if our pantries were full and our streets safe we would be no less lost and in need of a Savior. The Law of the Lord (ten commamdments) shows us what God has a right to require of the flesh--absolute perfection. The Law never marked on a curve. It never approved of anything less than constant, complete obedience. It never accepted "trying." It couldn’t. A law that departed from the principle of Justice once would be an imperfect law, an unjust law. Mercy is not the business of Divine Law. Unadulterated Justice is! Uncompromised Justice is the business of Divine Law. One sin unpunished and the Law itself would become a sinner. A god who could overlook the demands of Justice regarding the least of all sins just once in all of Eternity would be an unjust god!

Adam lost all claim on God and so did we. Our verse goes on to tell us that, as a consequence of our sin in Adam, we "are coming short of the glory of God." This is God's assessment of the human race...of you and me, that we are coming short. The constant proof of our original sin is our continued daily, hourly sinning. But sinning doesn't make us lost, it never did. It does prove the fact of our lost condition.

How lost was Adam after just one sin? Completely! How lost was King David at birth? Completely! How lost was the priest at birth? Completely! How lost were you and I at birth? Completely!

Men have a tendency to believe that certain sins disqualify us for Heaven while others do not. I'm sure that some people believed that his own sins weren't serious enough to keep him out of Heaven...But someone elses were. He had murdered; I had not. He had committed adultery; I had not. His sins were evidently terrible; mine by comparison were not. "By comparison;" that's the problem. No man has ever become convinced of his lost condition by comparing himself with others less moral than himself. It only took the human race one sin to become lost...Adam's act of rebellion. I should be considering my own sin viewed in the light of God's infinite holiness. His sin was none of my business. It was his business...and God's.

We are not acceptable to God because we are better than others, nor unacceptable because we are worse. God cannot accept the best individual that ever lived on the basis of that individual's human righteousness. Nor will He reject the worst individual who comes to Him through Christ. David did not become lost and undeserving of Heaven when he murdered Uriah. David was born lost and undeserving of Heaven. Nor did murder make him more lost. Uriah's integrity kept him from descending to the level of David's immorality, but human goodness did not save Uriah any more than it could save us.

Now you mite ask the question : Could God have saved John Gacy on his way to the death chamber? Many will say, No, and explain that his sins were too great for God's forgiveness. But if men are born lost, and Scripture says that we are, then John Gacy was as lost as he could be long before he committed his 33 murders. And no more lost afterward than Adam, or you, or me! It took the death of the Son of God to save fallen Adam. It would have taken that death if Adam had died physically after having committed only one sin. Nothing less than Christ's death could save Adam, and nothing more than that was needed! The death of millions of sacrificial animals could not remove one sin for the sinner. The one death of the Son of God removed trillions of sins for millions of believers. Would Gacy's 33 murders have been harder for God the Father to forgive...Christ the Son having died for them, than David's one murder? Is it ever the amount of man's sin that makes salvation possible or impossible? it is always the efficacy of Christ's death.

I do not expect to meet John Gacy in Heaven. Not because God doesn't love him, nor because Christ didn't express that love for him at Calvary. But because, to my knowledge he never came to a saving faith in Christ. Because I know that Christ died for me, I know that He died for John Gacy. Because I know that He died for Gacy, I know that He died for me.

Our problem is that we are slow to see the monstrous nature of even one sin. Once we do, and grasp the magnitude of our own lostness, it is not hard to believe that God's grace is sufficient for the sins of others. Even more sins. Even greater sins. I have yet to get over the marvel of God's grace in forgiving my sins. I cannot believe that, having forgiven me , he would have the least difficulty in forgiving others.

So what is all this Jesus salvation stuff I believe?

"He who knew no sin was made sin for us, that we, in Him, might be made the righteousness of God." God the Father did the most difficult thing that He will ever do in giving His Son to the cross for us. If it took God the Father giving His Son, and God the Son taking our sins upon Himself to cancel even one sin, then our lost condition came about through the quality, not the quantity, of our sin.

Now that I believe that heaven is a shure thing for me, how do I believe I shuld live?

the person I was as I came from Adam’s loins was executed through the death of my Substitute on the cross. However, the sinful nature of my former person--my "old man"--continues to dwell in and seek to rule my mortal body. God sees me now, not as the person I was under condemnation and death, but as the person I am in righteousness and life. I was taken out of the realm of the flesh and placed in the realm of the Spirit the moment that I was saved , but the flesh was not then taken out of me. That old sinful capacity is still with me this side of Heaven. Christians are saved people living in unsaved ("mortal") bodies.

Life is to be lived! A baby has human life but knows nothing about how to live it. Babies must be taught how to exploit the gift of life. Until they learn this, most of their lives are "lived" by others. They live by the attitudes, plans, and decisions of others. Left to themselves, they would not fare well for very long. Spiritual babies are no different. I must be taught the nature of my new live and how to exploit it or I don’t fare well either. The one difference is that my physical life is temporal and may be forfeited through neglect. My spiritual life is eternal and can never be forfeited. At death or rapture I join the Lord regardless of the amount of neglect my spiritual live have suffered. But our purpose on earth is never realized unless God is glorified, and God is never glorified until we understand who and what we are and what to do with who and what we are.

 

So thats what I believe.

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Oh my God I simply cannot let ctel's post go unmolested by reason. And that's exactly what would happen if I didn't post this. And if anyone here is thinking "Haha I knew he wouldn't be able to stay away", here's my response: "Grow the f*ck up". This forum is about Debates and Discussion (funnily enough), not interpersonal relationships and slapping each other on the back for irrelevant ad hominem bullsh*t.

 

ctel. Seriously. Thank you. Despite my cold logic, I still harbored doubts about whether maybe God does exist; probably a remnant from being born and raised as a Christian. But I did what you said, and revisited the Bible. The last time I'd actually read it, was when I was 12, and at that age I still had family and other religious people to interpret things for me. But I still ended up falling away from the belief. But now, 11 years later, I re-read it, and I'm astounded at just how right I was, and just how much I missed. The Bible is truly far worse than I ever remembered. So thanks ctel, you affirmed solidly my belief that God does not exist, and that even if he did, he is far, far, far from worthy of being worshipped by anyone. So before I mutilate your post, let's look a little bit at some of the things specifically related to that book you keep referring to: Romans.

 

Oh, and before we start, this post will be very long. So for all you pussies who get headaches from large volumes of information, just f*ck off now and don't bother posting anything like: "I didn't read all that because it was too long but here's my view anyways....". Try reading a book sometime, it might expand your mind and increase your tolerance for text.

 

So anyways, Romans.

 

1:31-32: Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

What a nice way to start a book in the bible: by declaring that homosexuals (those without natural affection) should be killed. Not just homosexuals, those who are friendly to them (have pleasure in them). Wow. That sure is alot of people who need to be killed nowadays, because everyone knows at least one person who is friends with a gay person. God forbid.

 

 

7:18-20: For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

This is nice to know. It sure does make believing what he's (Paul, the speaker) saying that much easier, knowing that he cannot do good. I also admire his courage in owning up to his misdeeds... by blaming them on some mystical force within him called "sin" (FFX?).

 

 

8:29-30: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

And you say that humans have free will? Paul (the speaker in Romans) doesn't seem to agree with you there.

 

 

9:14-15: What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Well that's nice to hear. Apparently there is no law or justice, only the whim and will of God. Also I like this argument. It's funny. "Is God unrighteous? No, because he does what he wants". I should be able to use that in a court of law.

 

 

9:16-23: So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Again we see that no man has free will, and all is subject to the will of God. Neither can we complain if we percieve any injustice, because, wait for it, "he does what he wants to do".

 

 

10:17-18: So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Riiiight. So EVERYONE has heard the word of God huh? Even Australian aboriginals, New Zealand mouries, native americans, islanders, and asians? That's pretty clever. I wonder if anyone bothered to mention that to them?

 

But if what Paul says is true, then Jesus is a liar, because he stated that he would return before the gospel has been preached to everyone (Mathew 10:23).

 

 

11:7-12: What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

More stuff on free will, this time concerning a whole nation (Isreal), that God decided to blind so that they would not recognise Jesus as the Christ. That sure was nice of God, to condemn a whole nation. God sure does love to play favourites with his little human clay chess pieces.

 

 

16:17-18: Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Hmm, now I understand why religion has always been so intolerant. God sure is a loving sort of guy huh?

 

-----------------

 

Ok, that's enough stuff specific to Romans. There's much, much more, but I'm trying to be picky and concise. In short, Romans is full of crap.

 

But Romans is only one part of the Bible. The rest is much, much funnier! Also depressing. It leads me to wonder where the hell all these religions actually get the idea of this perfect and loving God. I mean, it's almost as if they totally ignore everything in the bible that proves otherwise (a sh*tload, as we'll see), and only take his word at face value. Like if your dad said "I'm an honest hardworking respectable man", and you believed him even though every day he never moved from the couch except to scratch his nuts while trying not to spill the beer that is perpetually in his hand. My mind reels at the pure stupidity that this sort of delusion must require.

 

So let's look at ctels post, and see what the Bible has to say about his beliefs:

 

Beyond the will of God and the will of Satan, there is the will of man. Since the fall, mankind did not want to retain the knowledge of God and therefore became a slave of his own degenerate mind. Ignoring God’s righteousness, man set out to establish his own righteousness and do what seemed right to him. Influenced by Satan, the will of man has brought suffering and sorrow and ruin to every generation. Man as a fallen creature, living in a fallen world, is primarily responsible for the chaos and misery which has affected eveybody.

So Tehhunter, why do you blame God for what we do?.

Well, I'm not tehhunter, but he might have gotten that impression from reading the Bible. In particular, these parts:

 

Acts 13:48: And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

 

Romans 8:29-30: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

Romans 9:11-22: For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. .... For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? ... Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.

 

Ephesians 1:4-5: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

 

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12: God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned.

 

2 Timothy 1:9: Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

 

Jude 1:4: For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Proverbs 16:4: The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

 

John 12:40: He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Gee. That sure is alot of scripture telling us that no-one has free will. So I wonder where the hell all you Christians actually got the idea that you have free will? Well, I did find this one verse:

 

Deuteronomy 30:19: I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Hmm. That doesn't quite stack up now, does it? I guess it just all comes down to interpretation then...

 

 

And if you read the bible, tehhunter, and study what is for you, Romans, books by paul, and not what is history, or what is an example for you, you will see God explans everything. why do everyone think the bible has to be interpreted? God knows what kind of people will be reading it. And people that are slow, depend on the church, but the church (most of them) just want to make money. And just because you can't create matter, don't mean it can't be created. Can you create anything that was not put here for you to create something out of? Come on, you can't take everything literally. There is a such thing as a figure of speech. Can you understand?

So basically what you are saying is that God is all-powerful and can create that which cannot be created, right? Whatever. Ok, so let's look at just how all-powerful God really is:

 

Judges 1:19: And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

 

Mark 6:5: And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.

 

Hebrews 6:18: That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

So chariots of iron huh? Gotta get me one of them. Then I'll be beyond God's "omnipotence". Also, Hebrews 6:18 pretty much answers any of those paradoxes you hear like "can God create a rock so big even he can't lift it?". If he can't lie (not won't: cant), then he's not omnipotent, therefore the answer is "No, he can't".

 

So if he's not omnipotent (or if chariots of iron are like kryptonite to him), then where the hell do you get the idea that he can actually create something like the universe? Well, he probably told you he could:

 

Jeremiah 32:27: Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for the Lord?

Well, that clears that up then. If he says so, then that's good enough for you Christians.

 

 

God is no respecter of persons. Law is no respecter of persons. Justice is no respecter of persons. If it were possible for you to be good for one million years and then you sinned one little sin, Justice would not care about the million years--it would only care about the sin. A million years of doing good is not the concern of Justice. Sin is! Justice has to be satisfied or it would not be Just. If the justice of God would fail just one time, God Himself would become a sinner.

Well, firstly, you are wrong about the law. Law MUST respect people, and so too must justice. If this were not the case, then there could never be any conception of justice, because there would be no limit to the punishment for a crime. You could be tortured with electricity for the rest of your life for swearing, merely on the whims of whoever created the law. True justice requires that the punishment fits the crime, and that there are such things as mitigating circumstances. A poor man who steals a loaf of bread to feed his sick and starving pregnant wife surely deserves a less harsh punishment than a rich man who steals a loaf of bread because he is a tight-ass. If you don't agree, then you have no conception of justice.

 

But anyways, back to the fun stuff: your bible. On one hand, it seems to agree with you that God does not respect any person.

 

Deuteronomy 10:17: For the LORD your God  is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

 

2 Chronicles 19:7: Wherefore now let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take heed and do it: for there is no iniquity with the LORD our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.

 

Acts 10:34: Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

 

Romans 2:11: For there is no respect of persons with God.

 

Galatians 2:6: But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me

 

Ephesians 6:9: And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.

 

Colossians 3:25: But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

 

1 Peter 1:17: And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Funny how that last verse disagrees with a central tenet of your beliefs, but we'll get to that in a minute. First, though, there are also verses in the Bible which, funnily enough, seem to contradict this concept that God respects no person:

 

Genesis 4:4: And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

 

Exodus 2:25: And God looked upon the children of Israel, and God had respect unto them.

 

Leviticus 26:9: For I will have respect unto you, and make your fruitful, and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you.

 

2 Kings 13:23: And the LORD was gracious unto them, and had compassion on them, and had respect unto them, because of his covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and would not destroy them, neither cast he them from his presence as yet.

 

Psalms 138:6: Though the LORD be high, yet hath he respect unto the lowly: but the proud he knoweth afar off.

Well, I'm sure glad all that is cleared up. Wouldn't like to think the Bible, the sole basis for belief in God, was actually sending mixed messages...

 

 

God told Adam that he would die IN the day that he ate of the forbidden fruit. He did not say that Adam would die if he murdered, or committed adultery. Adam rebelled against Heaven by deliberately disobeying a plain command. He knew in advance that this would bring instant spiritual death. He made a choice with his eyes wide open. Though Adam had been created "in the image of God," when he fathered a son, it was "in his own image" ...in the image of fallen Adam.

He did say that, didn't he. But you know what's funny? God fibbed. He said:

 

Genesis 2:17: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

But then, in defiance of God (the nerve!), Adam went on and lived for a while:

 

Genesis 5:5: And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

Now, I know what you are thinking: "but it was a spiritua death God was talking about", and to that I respond "show me where it says that". You can't, because it doesn't. So why do you think that? Because that's how you chose to interpret it.

 

I've never seen this before though:

 

Here is the first indication that the sin nature is trasmitted, not from the female parent but from the male.

Where the f*ck did you get that idea from? Because that's completely contrary to what the Bible says.

 

Revelations 14:3-4: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

 

Genesis 3:16-17: Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

 

Leviticus 12:2: Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.

 

Leviticus 12:4-7: And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying three and thirty days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled. But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days. And when the days of her purifying are fulfilled, for a son, or for a daughter, she shall bring a lamb of the first year for a burnt offering, and a young pigeon, or dove, for a sin offering, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest: Who shall offer it before the LORD, and make an atonement for her; and she shall be cleansed from the issue of her blood. This is the law for her that hath born a male or a female.

Certainly doesn't sound like sin carries down through the father to me. But regardless of whether sin carries over from the father or the mother, the consequence of this ridiculous proposition is that Jesus was born a sinner. Indeed, even Mary needed to be cleansed and purified after giving birth to the Christ. And before you say "but if it carries down from the father alone, then Jesus was not born a sinner, because his father was not a man, but a God", and to that I say "not according to the bible". Behold;

 

Acts 2:30: Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

 

Acts 13:23: Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

 

Romans 1:3: Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

 

2 Timothy 2:8: Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

 

Hebrews 2:16: For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

 

Revelation 22:16: I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Thus no matter how sin transfers, Jesus was born damned to hell. It's a good thing he was killed, so that he might be saved by his own death....

 

 

Mercy is not the business of Divine Law. Unadulterated Justice is! Uncompromised Justice is the business of Divine Law. One sin unpunished and the Law itself would become a sinner. A god who could overlook the demands of Justice regarding the least of all sins just once in all of Eternity would be an unjust god!

You really are whack, you know that right? All through the Bible God is praised as a merciful God (seriously there's way too many for me to quote, but it's already popped up in a few earlier verses). But you do hit on a wonderful hypocrisy: God cannot be both perfectly Just and perfectly Merciful at the same time, and yet he is supposed to be both, because he is supposed to be perfect. Would not a perfect being be merciful? Would not a perfect being be just? A perfect being cannot exist because it creates paradoxes.

 

But the real reason you are whack is because you rant on about justice, but then claim that God saves only by grace. Why does he need justice when he saves by grace? And if he saves by justice, why does he need grace? Well, let's see what the bible has to say about this:

 

Mark 16:16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 

John 3:18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

John 3:36: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

Acts 16:30-31: And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

 

Romans 1:16-17: For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

 

Romans 3:20: Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

 

Romans 3:28: Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

 

Romans 4:2: For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

 

Romans 4:13: For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

 

Romans 5:1: Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

 

Galatians 2:16: Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

Galatians 3:11-12: But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

 

Ephesians 2:8-9: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

Titus 3:5: Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ok, so it agrees with you so far (must be why you like Romans so much), let's see if there's anything in there that suggests, that maybe, what you do might be at least as important as your faith.

 

Psalms 62:12: Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

 

Jeremiah 17:10: I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

 

Matthew 12:37: For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

 

Matthew 16:27: For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

 

Matthew 18:8-9: Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

 

Matthew 19:17: And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

 

Luke 10:25-28: And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? How readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

 

John 5:29: And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

Romans 2:6: Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

 

2 Corinthians 5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

 

2 Corinthians 11:15: Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

 

James 2:14: What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

 

James 2:17: Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

 

Jjames 2:20-26: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

Peter 1:17: And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

 

Revelations 20:13: And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Wow, did you see that? Even Romans contradicted itself! But hmm, all this confusion is kinda messy. Maybe what we should do is simply add up all the verses saying that salvation is by faith alone, and compare that number to the number of verses that say that salvation is by works also. That makes 18 for faith alone, and 26 for works also. Hmm, I guess that means you're wrong no matter how we play with the Bible. Better luck next time huh?

 

I've tired of typing out all these quotes, so my final argument is concerning whether or not we needed Jesus' sacrifice to absolve ourself of sin. Read up on Leviticus (specifically chapters 4, 5, and 6) and Numbers (chapters 15 and 29) about the blood of sacrifical animals taking away sin.

 

------------

 

Seriously ctel, looking back at all this, I come to wonder just what Bible you get your beliefs from. Because the Bible that I know disagrees with you about everything, except where it also agrees with you at the same time, though in less verses and books.

 

Although I won't quote the versus (I've quoted enough for one post I think -maybe another time), I can assure you that if you challenged me to prove that God was imperfect, sinful, and unworthy of love and worship, that I could in a heartbeat, using nothing more than quotes from the Bible and the most rudimentary common-sense. I've never seen or heard of a God so angry, jealous, vengeful, hateful, malicious, sadistic, war-like, impatient, unforgiving, unmerciful, unjust, or just plain old mean, than the Christian God of the Bible. He might tell you how loving and peaceful and merciful he is, but his actions speak far louder. If you were to compare the Christian God to, say, Buddha, on righteousness, peace, and love, Buddha would kick the sh*t out of God any day of the week. Except he wouldn't, because Buddha only promotes peace and love. I swear, the most sickening thing I've ever seen is the number of times God talks about killing children, how many, and how they will be killed, and how great it will be (for one example of many: Psalms 137:9: Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.). I mean, wow. What a wonderful and loving God! Just wait till you get to the parts where he starts ripping pregnant women up and forcing parents to eat their children. Those parts are golden, and if anyone wants me to post them here, I'll be glad to.

 

So in conclusion, I've found that even though religious people are notorious for their complete inability to grasp even the simplest logical concepts if they interfere with their faith, the best weapon of all against their faith is their own: the Bible. I recommend any athiest to read the Bible, take notes, understand it, and show all Christians just what it is they are placing all their belief in. The Bible is the one thing they cannot afford to argue against, and goddamn, it's the funniest sh*t ever.

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Read that post ctel. Read it and read it good. Don't skip over it, damnit. If there's anything you do for the rest of your life, make it reading that post. For the love of all that is good and holy.

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Hmm. That doesn't quite stack up now, does it? I guess it just all comes down to interpretation then...

Interpretation. Keyword there chief. Let us think about this. Because a group of Muslim's declare jihad, and start attacking all of the "infedels"...does that mean all of the Muslim's declare jihad, and attack the "infedels?"

 

Your views Mort are always extreme. You're always sure you are so right.

 

Have you ever thought that the Bible was written hmm...maybe over 2,000 years ago? Yeah, that's right. In 2,000 years, there is going to be change. Things change. Like you changed from a Christian, to an Atheist who is bent on proving something wrong, that he himself can't, nor anyone else can.

 

You're parents must of been real fundies, and must have beaten it down into your skull, and you must have rebelled. Gone against the grain, went against mummy and daddy.

 

Oh, and I read your entire post. It was better, although, you did resort to childish "f*ck offs" and the sort. But I see you're getting better, although you did use a lot of sarcasm, rather than observations, and beliefs...and logic! Oh my! Mort's best friend! Better read Alice in Wonderland a few more times, and take notes on that...you'll probably get farther trying to put your logic to that than the Bible.

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Well, whether there is; god, gods, neither or what ever, I hope we all know the bible was written by MEN. Yes, I said it, people (sinning flesh and blood) wrote the bible.

Ask yourself, "Why did those PEOPLE know more about god than I do?" or maybie they know no more than you do.

 

You know you created god in your own image when he hates the same people you do.

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Eviscero, I read it and read it good. And damnit I read the hole damn thing. all I can say is, Wow,, out of context out of context out of context. He just looks for a good sentance without reading the hole chapter, or even considering who it is writen to, or what its about. Eviscero, why? why shuld this be important to me?

Just wondering

Eviscero, did you read mine? all of it?.

Mortukai!, welcome back from your little vacation.. biggrin.gif

So I see you don't study to understand what you are reading, you don't rightly devide the bible,

and you like to take qoutes out of context. Romans 1:31-32 (out of context) is only telling believers

what non believers deserve to get. Jesus never said if you are gay, you can't be saved.

7:18-20: Paul is explaining that believers have two natures, the old one you was born with, and the

new one you get when become a believer. And with the old nature you cannot do good.

He is describing his struggle to do good.

8:29-30: Out of context again, to be conformed to the image of his Son is a free choice.

predestinate to be justified. You don't have to if you don't want to. you are not. your choice. not Gods.

You can predestin your kids to go to a certan college. They don't have to go there, do they?

9:14-15: BUZZZZZZ! Out of context agian. He is explaining that God has mercy for bevievers not unbelievers. That mercy is Jesus.

he does what he wants to do, what does he want to do? Is what he wants to do outside of his law?

If you set up something for someone and then try to encourage them to be part of it, that is not taking

away your free will.

16:17-18: Guess what,, its out of context agian. He is only telling believers to stay away from people (like you and churches for money) who mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which we have learned.

"So chariots of iron huh? Gotta get me one of them. Then I'll be beyond God's "omnipotence"'.

Mortukai, you are just pretending to be ignorant, right? right....

The law can respect people,, our laws can but we are talking about Gods law. So when he said sin= death, any sin, nothing els matters. Again why we need Jesus.

you said, "But the real reason you are whack is because you rant on about justice, but then claim that God saves only by grace". "Why does he need justice when he saves by grace"? Because sin has to bejustified. "And if he saves by justice, why does he need grace"? Justice does not save, it satisfies sin. You say "True justice requires that the punishment fits the crime". What is the punishment for sin?

You say "A poor man who steals a loaf of bread to feed his sick and starving pregnant wife surely deserves a less harsh punishment than a rich man who steals a loaf of bread because he is a tight-ass. Yes, I agree, but according to God, they both sined, and sin is punished by death. God did not give the Law to see if man could keep it, but to show man that he cannot keep it. The Law is God’s righteous requirement of man. Keeping it perfectly would only be doing what man is supposed to do--nothing more. But now that we do sin, he don't want to distroy his creation because of it. justice would mean hell for all. Jesus satisfide justice on the cross, and he went to hell istead.

He can't save us with justice. Only with grace.

God's perfect Law could not declare the sinner righteous; it could only condemn and execute him (Romans 3:20; 2 Corinthians 3:7-9). God gave His perfect Law to demonstrate to sinners that we cannot stand before Him on the basis of our own merit...on law ground. Law can only condemn the law breaker; it cannot save him. The sinner must not seek his salvation on the grounds of law keeping, for, even if he kept the entire law and committed just one infraction, the Law would justly demand his doom (James 2:10). No, the sinner can only approach God on the grounds of God's Grace.

 

The Law is a prosecutor, and a good one--the best one that the Universe will ever see. Grace is a defense attorney pleading the finished work of Christ. Grace will never lose a case, even against the great prosecutor, Law, because the Judge is also the Savior.

After fixing the sentence for outlaws (Gentiles) and law breakers (Jews), this Judge arose, removed His judicial garments, came down before the bench, and Himself paid the bailiff!

 

The Law can never be defeated; that's why to be under Law is to be under Death! Grace can never be defeated; that's why to be under Grace is to reign in Life! Grace did not really defeat Law in the courtroom of Heaven. Grace met Law's demands, and, since Grace could not meet the demands of Law in us, it met them in Another...it met them in our Substitute, the Lord Jesus Christ, through His crosswork on Calvary! The trial has already been held! (John 5:24; Romans 8:1) The trial, yours and mine.. .every Believer's, is over! The verdict is in! We believers are free; and never to be tried again! No double jeopardy!

 

We have not just been pardoned, nor even acquitted. We have been justified...declared righteous...given a new and eternal standing before God. All Believers have, as a present possession, a positive righteousness (Romans 5:1-2). The wonderfully shocking news is that God Himself cannot lodge an accusation against us because it is God Himself Who declared us righteous! (Romans 8:33) Christ Himself cannot condemn us because it is Christ Himself Who died in our place and rose on our behalf (Romans 8:34). Yes, the Law is perfect, but it is "weak through the flesh," and because it is weak through the flesh, there is something it could not do; it made nothing perfect. It is a perfect Law that made nothing perfect! (Hebrews 7:19; 9:9; 10:1) Grace, the once-for-ever death of our Substitute on Calvary, perfects forever those who put their trust in Him! (Hebrews 10:14)

 

The will of God is not always explicit. Sometimes we obey God’s plan by living according to principle rather than following a direct command. Let me illustrate.

 

There were two farmers who argued over a boundary. George insisted that John’s fence was one foot inside George’s property. One day George saw John moving the fence not one foot, but two. When he asked why, John explained that their friendship was worth more to him than a foot or two of soil. George was so touched by John’s attitude that he insisted that the fence remain where it was. John was able to win George to Christ as a result of his willingness to sacrifice some land. Now, there is a command to flee immorality, but no command to move a fence. John simply made a sacrifice on principle...the principle that his neighbor’s friendship and, more importantly, his neighbor’s soul was worth more than a strip of farmland. John didn’t have to make that decision. There might have been another way to solve the problem and still be in the will of God as far as attitude and action are concerned. There may have been several paths for John to follow without sacrificing principle. Where there is no specific command of God to follow, sometimes there is latitude. Sometimes there is more than one right choice. John chose what he believed to be the best

 

of several right choices and not only made his enemy his friend, but won his neighbor to the Lord.

 

In The Collapse of Evolution, Scott Huse, not only opposes the theory, he buries it. Drawing from five different scientific fields - physics, mathematics, geology, biology, and anthropology - Huse systematically dismantles the evolutionary hypothesis. Employing data gathered by leading evolutionists, the Dr. demonstrates the absurdity of spontaneous generation.The first law of thermodynamics, a.k.a. the Law of Energy Conservation, states that energy can be converted from one form to another, but it can be neither created nor destroyed. Exit the "fact" of a universe, which is able to create itself. The second law of thermodynamics is known as the Law of Energy Decay. It states that every system left to its own devices tends to move from order to disorder. Evolution, in direct contradiction to this law, states that the universe and its systems are increasing in order. When charged with these two laws evolution falls predictably silent.

 

Huse uses mathematics to underscore the virtual improbable likelihood of increasing order. Using probability analysis and scientific studies of population growth he reaffirms the oft used analogy - Evolution is as likely to occur as a tornado blowing through a junkyard and completely assembling a Boeing 747.

In the chapter on geology he exposes the shell game used to determine extreme ages for rocks and fossils. He' uncovers the circular reasoning behind the use of the mythical "geologic column" as a proof of evolution. He questions radiometric-dating methods, which have been known to date recent lava flows at 200 and 300 million years. Then, having disarmed the stalwarts of evolutionary thought, he delivers a creationist interpretation, commenting on paleontology, astronomy, and the uniqueness of the earth.

 

His chapters on biology and anthropology document the bloopers, blunders and the general state of confusion that haunt the evolutionist. He conjures up quotes from men the likes of Darwin and Huxley, which seriously question their own assumptions, and in some cases, refute them altogether: "Not one change of species into another is on record. ... We cannot prove that a single species has been changed. " - Charles Darwin "Science has explained nothing; the more we know, the more fantastic the world becomes, and the profounder the surrounding darkness. Aldous Huxley The Collapse of Evolution is a conclusive inventory of well-founded knowledge, providing an ardent survey of the most riveting debate of our time. It is a must-read; not only for every Christian but for anyone who has ever pondered, "Where do I come from?" Does evolution have a leg to stand on or is it, simply a grown-up's nursery rhyme? The evolutionist waves his magic wand of random chance and with a kiss that lasts five billion years turns a frog into a prince. "And they have changed the truth of God for lies, and worshipped and served the created things more than their Creator." Romans 1: 25.

 

Out of context out of context one by one you take everything out of context.. Can you read? I am shure I could find alot of things you said, take them out of context, and make it look like you said alot of things you did not.. You know that.

 

Did an all-wise God write a Book that cannot be understood? That wouldn’t make a whole lot of sense now, would it? Especially since, everywhere in Scripture, God holds man responsible for responding intelligently to His Word. Some would agree that the Bible was written to be understood; it does say,

 

"The entrance of Thy Word gives light," but then suggest that it was written to be understood by some spiritually elite "clergy". But our verse goes on to say that "it gives understanding to the simple"

 

The Corinthians are not told that they are incapable of understanding the Grace Message and that they must depend upon some cleric who can explain it to them. They are told that the Spirit of God indwells them that they may know the things freely given (in the original Greek, "graced") to them by God (1 Corinthians 2:12). The Holy Spirit, then, is the Interpreter of the Bible...not the Church.

 

Do I say then, that every man can understand every verse in the Bible? Theoretically, yes; practically, no, for the Bible compares itself to a mighty ocean (Psalm 36:6) and no man can explore an entire ocean in a lifetime. But any man can recognize an ocean, master its fundamentals readily, learn to sail it correctly, profit from its bounty, explore it daily in a profitable search for new and wonderful facts, and explain what he learns to others.

 

The Bible is History’s greatest legal document and, like all legal documents, there are rules to be followed in order to understand it. My mortgage agreement may call for the monthly transfer of $800.00 from one party to another but I would wait in vain for a check to arrive. There is a great difference between

"The party of the first part" and "The party of the second part." I am the one who must remit the check; the Bank is the one who receives it. It would not do for me to ignore the rule of who is being addressed and fail to carry out the instructions of the mortgage agreement that apply to me.

 

Suppose a mother, when leaving the house to go shopping, places two notes on the refrigerator door--one for her eight year old daughter and one for her sixteen year old son. The daughter’s note instructs her to clean up her room, putting her toys away, and to set the dinner table with an extra setting as Uncle Fred is coming over for supper. The son’s note requests that he take the family car to the car-wash and have it washed and waxed as Mom and Dad plan to use it next day to attend a wedding.

 

Now the son can learn from reading his sister’s note. Her room is messy, her toys need putting away, Mom wants her to do it, and Uncle Fred is coming for the evening meal. Just so, the daughter can learn from her brother’s note. The car needs washing and waxing, Mom wants it done, and there is going to be a wedding on Saturday. All very well, unless the son mistakes his mother’s instructions to her daughter for his own, and the daughter jumps into the car and heads downtown without a license and without any driving experience. The notes are equally the word of the mother, but they are written to different people to accomplish differing ends.

 

In the Bible, God has many messages to many individuals and groups. We can and should learn from all of them. They are all equally the Word of the Father, but they are not all the Father’s Word to us. We Grace Believers can no more apply everything God says to Israel to ourselves than we could apply everything God says to Satan to Christ. Shocking analogy? Purposefully so! For Church history is a history of making this mistake. All of the Bible is for us; the Pauline Epistles are to us and about us. As the daughter’s note is more important to the daughter and the son’s note more important to the son, the Pauline Epistles are most important to us.

 

Fallen Adam could not go back to his old responsibility as Eden’s landscaper after being evicted; that option no longer existed, even though it had once been based on a command of God. Jews living under the New Covenant in the future will not return to the provisions of the Old Covenant which has been done away. When God resumes Israel’s program after the Rapture of the Body of Christ, Israel will have the Holy Spirit’s Pentecostal power which she did not have before the events of Acts Chapter Two. Jews are not saved today by believing

in Christ as Messiah, the Son of God as previously, but are saved by trusting the finished work of Christ on Calvary, even as Gentiles. Most of the 36 values of the Cross which presently "work together for good" (Romans 8:28) to today’s Believer were not available to yesterday’s believer, and some will not be available to the believers who follow us in the next Dispensation.

 

Who is being addressed. You and I have not been told to tend a garden, build an ark, slay Canaanites, discard our wallets, keep kosher, observe Sabbaths, avoid Gentiles, live communally, repent and be baptized, receive the Holy Spirit...etc. We have been told to follow Paul! (1 Corinthians 4:16; 11:1).

 

Angry, jealous, vengeful, hateful, malicious, sadistic, war-like, impatient, unforgiving, unmerciful, unjust, or just plain old mean..

 

Sounds like you are describing yourself.

 

If not having mercy, why would he make himself into a human (Jesus) to be sacrificed ?

You keep going waaayyy out of context...

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No, I didn't read your post. I scanned it. Know why? Because it's damn near illegible. Mortukai writes a lot, and he writes well. You write like a moron. You don't have spaces between paragraphs, your grammar is horrendous, and it hurts my head to read your incoherent ramblings. With post sizes getting this big, instant messengers or IRC would be better.

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Eviscero, maybe your right, about instant messengers, or something. And I am not a good writer at all. I know this, I don't even know why I got into this. I'm a rock guitarist and drummer, thats what I do best. I never wrote this much in my life. I can't prove anything, nothing, whatever word I shuld use. just faith in whatever you have faith in.

I did not mean to hurt your head. Its starting to hurt mine too. Just trying to explain to "gangstarr guru" what I believe and why I believe it. then Mortukai came back and I just could not stop. Sorry, It was kinda long. But it won't be that long anymore, ever. ok

Remember i'm just your Average Thug .

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I also understand that no matter how much human logic and reasoning is put into an argument, you won't change a religious person who depends on a character like "god". That's why I haven't been writing as many books ( tounge.gif Mortukai) against you guys.

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Because no matter how much logic is put into something, it doesn't necessarily mean it's true. Just because you're logical doesn't mean you're right. I would not consider Mortukai very logical either. Putting sarcastic comments after each verse, and pointing how it contradicts itself isn't really a form of logic, it's criticism.

 

And where is his reasoning behind it? All I can see is this forceful and very uncharismatic way trying to persuade people. No offense Mortukai, but since I'm remaining neutral...I don't think I would really agree with you either. Your logic in my opinion is flawed. You take the Bible into a literal interpretation. Which is like (I said this before) reading something like the Illiad or the Odyssey and believing them word for word. Homer didn't mean for them to be taken in that sense though, the truth was streched to get people to listen. To listen to these parables with lessons...rather than sitting there unable to comprehend anything and being bored out of their minds.

 

The books of the Bible were written by different people. Different people, will take different things and interpret them in different ways. The way Roman's was written, was not the same way Luke was written...for the simple and obvious fact of that it was written by different people. You can't have a book like the Qu'ran, written all by one person...the opinion wouldn't differ because that opinion would remain constant throughout the book, unless the text was altered. The Bible has been manipulated, and changed. Times have changed since the book was written (if you haven't noticed), and so has the way people interpreted God, no matter how absurb you think it is.

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sofa_king

to me it dosnt seem it would take a really smart person to figure out there is a creator....the universe might be able to be explained...but go further back...go to the 1st piece of dust if you like..some 1 created it. all i know is that it wasnt me. and look and understand the periodic table sometime, its so perfect it could not of just happened..do not confuse god with religion..religion has brought so much blood with it sence its conseption its not funny.god gave only life....man destroyed religion...just pick the 1 that suits you and hope it works out! wink.gif

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to me it dosnt seem it would take a really smart person to figure out there is a creator....the universe might be able to be explained...but go further back...go to the 1st piece of dust if you like..some 1 created it. all i know is that it wasnt me. and look and understand the periodic table sometime, its so perfect it could not of just happened..do not confuse god with religion..religion has brought so much blood with it sence its conseption its not funny.god gave only life....man destroyed religion...just pick the 1 that suits you and hope it works out! 

 

Just to play the devils advocate, what about the possibility that some random bit of nature caused the universe just the same as some random event causing a huricane in the caribean (wich for scientific back ground could possibly be caused by a butterfly flapping it's wings in Africa)?

 

As the devils advocate I also want to point out that science and religion are also totaly separate, this is an analogy only meant to provoke thought.

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An interesting, if long, article that may be of interest to some here:

 

Title: The Atheism Of Astronomy

Subtitle: A Refutation Of The Theory That The Universe Is Governed By Intelligence

Author: Woolsey Teller

Link: Infidels.org

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@ctel: Wow, dude, seriously. You are beyond all hope. You can't even see what is right before your eyes, and you have to justify ignoring parts of the Bible by saying "that part isn't meant for us". I thought God's law was meant to be universal and eternal? But clearly he is just playing favourites again, with one law for some people, another for other people, and another for you. I mean, sh*t, I just can't compete with that sort of pure pigheadedness. But scariest of all is your concept of justice. f*ck. I'm going to run a little logical argument by you here, but I have absolutely no expectation that you'll understand it:

 

Imagine that your great grandmother, who died before you were ever born, killed your great grandfather by poisoning his food because he beat her one day. Now imagine that once the police discovered this, they put you on trial, and found that yes, your great grandmother did commit this crime, and so as a result you arae sentenced to life imprisonment. Is that fair? Is that just?

 

Now imagine that your great great great grandmother, who died before your great grandmother was born, stole some bread one day, and once the police built up a case around this, you were put on trial and sentenced to the death penalty. Is that fair? Is that just?

 

Now imagine that your great great great great great great grandmother disobeyed a silly rule that was made specifically so that it would be broken, and ate an apple, and once the police discovered this, they put you on trial and sentenced you to an eternity of burning torture and excruciating suffering that you could never ever escape from. Is that fair? Is that just?

 

If you answered yes to any of these questios, then truly ctel, you have absolutely no idea whatsoever about what justice is. And if you answered no to any of them, then God is unjust.

 

 

Interpretation. Keyword there chief. Let us think about this. Because a group of Muslim's declare jihad, and start attacking all of the "infedels"...does that mean all of the Muslim's declare jihad, and attack the "infedels?"

Yes, I understand the concept of interpretation. Perhaps I was being too subtle, but that was an attack on ctel's claim that the bible required no interpretation, which in case you haven't noticed, is directly contrary to your own views.

 

But if the Bible requires interpretation, then it is a flawed book, and God is sewing confusion among the people he supposedly loves.

 

 

Your views Mort are always extreme. You're always sure you are so right.

 

Have you ever thought that the Bible was written hmm...maybe over 2,000 years ago? Yeah, that's right. In 2,000 years, there is going to be change. Things change. Like you changed from a Christian, to an Atheist who is bent on proving something wrong, that he himself can't, nor anyone else can.

This, again, is something that I have argued. You are right. Things change. But the Bible cannot be one of those things, because it is supposed to be the divine and perfect Word of God. If the Word of God is not eternal, then God is not perfect. Thus saying "things change" is detrimental to any belief in the Bible.

 

 

You're parents must of been real fundies, and must have beaten it down into your skull, and you must have rebelled. Gone against the grain, went against mummy and daddy.

Ahhh, hello ad hominem, my old friend. Also you are dead wrong. My father is a Born Again, so he is a fundie, but I haven't lived with him since I was 4, and my mother is far more relaxed because she is a 3rd generation Christian, not a convert. Also my church experience was rather pleasant for the most part. I simply cannot accept its fundamental concepts as being true.

 

 

Oh, and I read your entire post. It was better, although, you did resort to childish "f*ck offs" and the sort. But I see you're getting better, although you did use a lot of sarcasm, rather than observations, and beliefs...and logic! Oh my! Mort's best friend! Better read Alice in Wonderland a few more times, and take notes on that...you'll probably get farther trying to put your logic to that than the Bible.

Good for you. Though I have no idea what you are referring to with that Alice in Wonderland insult. Was that meant to imply that the content of my post was nonsensical? I agree, because the content of my post was direct quotes from the Bible. But there was logic there: that's the only thing that kept it all together. You clearly have demonstrated, as you have numerous times before, that you are incapable of identifying logic, and even more incapable of engaging with it, simply resorting to insults and irrelevant personal attacks in a vain attempt to discredit me instead of countering my arguments.

 

 

Because no matter how much logic is put into something, it doesn't necessarily mean it's true. Just because you're logical doesn't mean you're right. I would not consider Mortukai very logical either. Putting sarcastic comments after each verse, and pointing how it contradicts itself isn't really a form of logic, it's criticism.

Wow lazzo. What sort of magical airy fairy world do you actually think this is where logic does not correlate 100% to truth? The definition of a paradox rests on the foundation that logic is truth, and a paradox is formed when the logical truth seems counter-intuitive to initial conceptions. All of science rests on the foundation that through logical analysis, the truth can be found. And so far it has been absolutely correct. And yes, the definition of "contradiction" requires logic: "Principle of contradiction (Logic), the axiom or law of thought that a thing cannot be and not be at the same time, or a thing must either be or not be, or the same attribute can not at the same time be affirmed and and denied of the same subject." Thus pointing out contradictions is, in fact, a form of logic, which also happens to be very effective at criticising arguments. Indeed, the only real way to criticise an argument is through logic. All other forms of criticism cannot criticise the argument and/or are fallacious.

 

 

And where is his reasoning behind it? All I can see is this forceful and very uncharismatic way trying to persuade people. No offense Mortukai, but since I'm remaining neutral...I don't think I would really agree with you either. Your logic in my opinion is flawed. You take the Bible into a literal interpretation. Which is like (I said this before) reading something like the Illiad or the Odyssey and believing them word for word. Homer didn't mean for them to be taken in that sense though, the truth was streched to get people to listen. To listen to these parables with lessons...rather than sitting there unable to comprehend anything and being bored out of their minds.

Oh no! Not forceful and uncharismatic! Whatever will I do? Listen dipsh*t, if I wanted to persuade people, I'd try to be friendly and agreeable, I'd compliment them, I'd sugar coat my words, and I'd stick up for them when they are attacked by other people. I don't do these things because I'm not trying to persuade people by appealing to irrelevant things like emotions. In this forum I am logic, that is all. I present logical arguments, and counter illogical arguments. It is up to the reader to be persuaded or not, and if they are, then they are clearly capable of seeing reason. If they are not persuaded, then they can only swallow reason with a teaspoon of sugar. I have no time for these people.

 

Now, the Bible is meant to be taken literally. It is not the Illiad. Nobody believes in the Illiad as a religious text. Nobody tries to force other people to believe the Illiad by using the stories within to frighten or inspire them. Nobody deludes themselves that the Illiad is literally divine providence. Nobody believes that the characters of the Illiad were very real and historically accurate. But religious people DO believe the Bible to be all these things. It it is not taken literally, then it is merely another fairy tale with a moral at the end. Certainly not something to devote your life to or live by without question. Once you stop taking it literally, it begins to mean anything. The whole of creation in Genesis could be taken as being a metaphor of evolution and the Big Bang. Jesus' sacrifice could be a metaphor simply to illustrate the virtue of being a martyr and how other's should be grateful when somebody sacrifices on their behalf. All those bits about ripping up women and burning heathens and stoning criminals could simply be a metaphor teaching us to take all punishment to the extreme, or maybe even just to illustrate how nice revenge feels when you can boost your own ego by stepping on others.

 

No, the Bible very much is meant to be taken literally. It is meant to be the Word of God.

 

 

The books of the Bible were written by different people. Different people, will take different things and interpret them in different ways. The way Roman's was written, was not the same way Luke was written...for the simple and obvious fact of that it was written by different people. You can't have a book like the Qu'ran, written all by one person...the opinion wouldn't differ because that opinion would remain constant throughout the book, unless the text was altered. The Bible has been manipulated, and changed. Times have changed since the book was written (if you haven't noticed), and so has the way people interpreted God, no matter how absurb you think it is.

I'm not sure what you are trying to argue here Lazzo. It certainly sounds to me like you are arguing that the Bible is not the Word of God, and that the rules set forth in the Bible are therefore flexible and can change according to how people change. If this is what you are saying, then you are very much arguing against God, because God is meant to be perfect: His Word eternal, His commandments absolute, His book clear and true. If it is nothing more than a collection of a bunch of people's opinions, then that undermines all of those things, and thus undermines the existence of God, because the Bible is the only proof for his existence.

 

 

You know you created god in your own image when he hates the same people you do.

Hehe, yeah. To me, the whole Bible just reads like "Do what I say or my God will destroy you in horrible ways because he loves only me".

 

 

I also understand that no matter how much human logic and reasoning is put into an argument, you won't change a religious person who depends on a character like "god". That's why I haven't been writing as many books ( tounge.gif Mortukai) against you guys.

Well, maybe I just had an undying hope in the intelligence of humans, that maybe, if they were shown an argument clear enough and logical enough, that maybe they might be able to see the truth. Unfortunately, every day of my life I discover this is far from the case, and logic plays almost no role whatsoever in most people's beliefs. Stupidity is far more rampant than even my pessimistic mind could ever comprehend. Maybe you are actually more pessmistic than I am? tounge2.gif

 

 

to me it dosnt seem it would take a really smart person to figure out there is a creator....the universe might be able to be explained...but go further back...go to the 1st piece of dust if you like..some 1 created it. all i know is that it wasnt me. and look and understand the periodic table sometime, its so perfect it could not of just happened..do not confuse god with religion..religion has brought so much blood with it sence its conseption its not funny.god gave only life....man destroyed religion...just pick the 1 that suits you and hope it works out!

You're right. It doesn't require a brain to believe in God. IQ tests have consistently found that religious people have lower IQs than non-religious people, though you'll have Buckley's chance of ever hearing about that because the papers are usually squashed and never seen again nor followed up on. I don't think anyone is confusing God with religion here. In fact, it seems that religion is the nicer of the two, as we'll soon see below:

 

 

Angry, jealous, vengeful, hateful, malicious, sadistic, war-like, impatient, unforgiving, unmerciful, unjust, or just plain old mean..

 

Sounds like you are describing yourself.

Are you serious? Is that the best you could do? "I know you are but what is God?" Jesus. Ok, let's finish this post by having a look at the real God, the one portrayed in the Bible:

 

Genesis 6:7: And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

 

Genesis 6:11-13: The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

 

Genesis 6:17: And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

 

Genesis 7:4: For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

 

Genesis 7:21-23: And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

So... the earth was filled with violence... so God, in his righteousness and Wisdom, decided to kill everything on the earth. Well that makes sense. I guess two wrongs do make a right, so long as the second wrong is bigger than the first wrong by a magnitude of about a billion. And so long as you also kill a whole sh*tload of newborn babies and innocent animals as well (God sure does love slaughtering animals).

 

 

Genesis 19:24-25: Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

And here again we see the total murder of every living thing in two cities: children, animals, plants, everything. He does save Lot though, despite the fact that Lot sacrificed his two daughters to a mob of rapists (Genesis 19:8). Apparently Lot was still considered righteous man despite that.

 

 

Genesis 15:9-10: And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon. And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.

God sure does love the needless slaughter of animals. See also: Gen. 4:4, Gen. 8:20-21, Gen. 15:9-10, Ex. 20:24, Ex. 29:11-37, Lev. 1:5, All of Lev.9, Lev. 23:12-18, Num. 18:17-19, and Dt. 12:27.

 

 

Exodus 4:21-22: And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

 

Exodus 7:4-5: But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments. And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them.

 

Exodus 9:14: For I will at this time send all my plagues upon thine heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like me in all the earth.

So just because he is a nice guy, God hardens the Pharoah's heart so he won't free the Isrealites, then threatens to kill all the firstborn children of Egypt if the Pharoah won't free the Isrealites. That sounds reasonable. Then he hardens his heart again, just so that he can bring in his armies and let the Egyptians know that he is the Lord (who else would be so cruel?). One might wonder why a perfect and loving God would resort to mass murder of innocent children and animals, and sending plagues and turning rivers to blood, just to prove his power. Why not do something nice instead? All that stuff sounds awefully evil, like the sort of things you see in games like Diablo and such.

 

Here's some more examples of how loving, peaceful, merciful, and holy God is:

 

Exodus 15:3: The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

 

Psalms 18:34: He teacheth my hands to war, so that a bow of steel is broken by mine arms.

 

Psalms 144:1: Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:

 

Exodus 22:20: He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

 

Exodus 22:24: And my wrath shall wax hot, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless.

 

Exodus 22:29: Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me.

 

Exodus 31:15: Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

 

Exodus 32:27: And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

 

Leviticus 20:9: For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

 

Leviticus 26:16-42: I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you. And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins. And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass: And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits. And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins. I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate. And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me; Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins. And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy. And when I have broken the staff of your bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall deliver you your bread again by weight: and ye shall eat, and not be satisfied. And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat. And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you. And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours. And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it. And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste. Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies' land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths. As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did not rest in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it. And upon them that are left alive of you I will send a faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a shaken leaf shall chase them; and they shall flee, as fleeing from a sword; and they shall fall when none pursueth. And they shall fall one upon another, as it were before a sword, when none pursueth: and ye shall have no power to stand before your enemies. And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up. And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them. If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me; And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity: Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.

 

Leviticus 15:32, 35-36: And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

 

Numbers 21:34-35: And the LORD said unto Moses, Fear him not: for I have delivered him into thy hand, and all his people, and his land; and thou shalt do to him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon. So they smote him, and his sons, and all his people, until there was none left him alive: and they possessed his land.

 

Numbers 24:8: God brought him forth out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn: he shall eat up the nations his enemies, and shall break their bones, and pierce them through with his arrows.

 

Numbers 25:3-4: And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel. And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.

 

Numbers 31:7-10: And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword. And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.

 

Numbers 31:15, 17-18: And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

 

Deuteronomy 2:30, 33-34: But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.... And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:

 

Deuteronomy 3:6: And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.

 

Deuteronomy 5:9: I the Lord am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sins of the fathers to the third or fourth generation of those who hate me.

 

Deuteronomy 6:14-15: Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you; (For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth.

 

Deuteronomy 7:16: And thou shalt consume all the people which the LORD thy God shall deliver thee; thine eye shall have no pity upon them: neither shalt thou serve their gods; for that will be a snare unto thee.

 

Deuteronomy 7:20-21: Moreover the LORD thy God will send the hornet among them, until they that are left, and hide themselves from thee, be destroyed. Thou shalt not be affrighted at them: for the LORD thy God is among you, a mighty God and terrible.

 

Deuteronomy 7:23: But the LORD thy God shall deliver them unto thee, and shall destroy them with a mighty destruction, until they be destroyed.

 

Deuteronomy 12:27: And thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, the flesh and the blood, upon the altar of the LORD thy God: and the blood of thy sacrifices shall be poured out upon the altar of the LORD thy God, and thou shalt eat the flesh.

 

Deuteronomy 13:15: Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

 

Deuteronomu 20:13-14: And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.

 

Deuteronomy 21:22: And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:

 

Deuteronomy 28:56-57: The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter, And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them for want of all things secretly in the siege and straitness, wherewith thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates.

 

Deuteronomy 32:39-42: See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever. If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me. I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.

 

Joshua 6:21,24: And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword... And they burnt the city with fire, and all that was therein: only the silver, and the gold, and the vessels of brass and of iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the LORD.

 

Joshua 11:20: For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses.

 

Judges 9:23: Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech: That the cruelty done to the threescore and ten sons of Jerubbaal might come, and their blood be laid upon Abimelech their brother, which slew them; and upon the men of Shechem, which aided him in the killing of his brethren.

 

1 Samuel 6:19: And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the LORD had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter.

 

1 Samuel 11:6-7: And the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard those tidings, and his anger was kindled greatly. And he took a yoke of oxen, and hewed them in pieces, and sent them throughout all the coasts of Israel by the hands of messengers, saying, Whosoever cometh not forth after Saul and after Samuel, so shall it be done unto his oxen. And the fear of the LORD fell on the people, and they came out with one consent.

 

1 Samuel 5:2: Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

 

2 Samuel 12:31: And he brought forth the people that were therein, and put them under saws, and under harrows of iron, and under axes of iron, and made them pass through the brick-kiln: and thus did he unto all the cities of the children of Ammon. So David and all the people returned unto Jerusalem.

 

1 Kings 16:4: Him that dieth of Baasha in the city shall the dogs eat; and him that dieth of his in the fields shall the fowls of the air eat.

 

2 Kings 2:23-24: And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

 

2 Kings 6:28: And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him to day, and we will eat my son tomorrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.

 

2 Kings 9:33-37: And he said, Throw her down. So they threw her down: and some of her blood was sprinkled on the wall, and on the horses: and he trode her under foot. And when he was come in, he did eat and drink, and said, Go, see now this cursed woman, and bury her: for she is a king's daughter. And they went to bury her: but they found no more of her than the skull, and the feet, and the palms of her hands. Wherefore they came again, and told him. And he said, This is the word of the LORD, which he spake by his servant Elijah the Tishbite, saying, In the portion of Jezreel shall dogs eat the flesh of Jezebel: And the carcase of Jezebel shall be as dung upon the face of the field in the portion of Jezreel; so that they shall not say, This is Jezebel.

 

2 Kings 19:35: And it came to pass that night, that the angel of the LORD went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.

 

2 Chronicles 14:8-14: And Asa had an army of men that bare targets and spears, out of Judah three hundred thousand; and out of Benjamin, that bare shields and drew bows, two hundred and fourscore thousand: all these were mighty men of valour. And there came out against them Zerah the Ethiopian with an host of a thousand thousand, and three hundred chariots; and came unto Mareshah. Then Asa went out against him, and they set the battle in array in the valley of Zephathah at Mareshah. And Asa cried unto the LORD his God, and said, LORD, it is nothing with thee to help, whether with many, or with them that have no power: help us, O LORD our God; for we rest on thee, and in thy name we go against this multitude. O LORD, thou art our God; let no man prevail against thee. []So the LORD smote the Ethiopians before Asa[/b], and before Judah; and the Ethiopians fled. And Asa and the people that were with him pursued them unto Gerar: and the Ethiopians were overthrown, that they could not recover themselves; for they were destroyed before the LORD, and before his host; and they carried away very much spoil. And they smote all the cities round about Gerar; for the fear of the LORD came upon them: and they spoiled all the cities; for there was exceeding much spoil in them.

 

2 Chronicles 21:14-15: Behold, with a great plague will the LORD smite thy people, and thy children, and thy wives, and all thy goods: And thou shalt have great sickness by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out by reason of the sickness day by day.

 

2 Chronicles 36:16-17: But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against his people, till there was no remedy. Therefore he brought upon them the king of the Chaldees, who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion upon young man or maiden, old man, or him that stooped for age: he gave them all into his hand.

 

Psalms 58:10: The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.

 

Psalms 68:21-23: But God shall wound the head of his enemies, and the hairy scalp of such an one as goeth on still in his trespasses. The Lord said, I will bring again from Bashan, I will bring my people again from the depths of the sea: That thy foot may be dipped in the blood of thine enemies, and the tongue of thy dogs in the same.

 

Psalms 110:6: He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.

 

Psalms 137:9: Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

 

Psalms 139:19-22: Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men. For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain. Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

 

Proverbs 19:18: Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying.

 

Proverbs 23:13-14: Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

 

Isaiah 9:19-20: Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire: no man shall spare his brother. And he shall snatch on the right hand, and be hungry; and he shall eat on the left hand, and they shall not be satisfied: they shall eat every man the flesh of his own arm:

 

Isaiah 13:15-18: Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished. Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it. Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.

 

Isaiah 45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

Isaiah 49:26: And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

 

Jeremiah 7:20: Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.

 

Jeremiah 13:14: And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

 

Jeremiah 18:11, 21: Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good... Therefore deliver up their children to the famine, and pour out their blood by the force of the sword; and let their wives be bereaved of their children, and be widows; and let their men be put to death; let their young men be slain by the sword in battle.

 

Jeremiah 19:3-9: And say, Hear ye the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah, and inhabitants of Jerusalem; Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, the which whosoever heareth, his ears shall tingle... And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them.

 

Jeremiah 25:31-33: A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD. Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth. And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.

 

Jeremiah 44:27: Behold, I will watch over them for evil, and not for good: and all the men of Judah that are in the land of Egypt shall be consumed by the sword and by the famine, until there be an end of them.

 

Jeremiah 45:5: And seekest thou great things for thyself? seek them not: for, behold, I will bring evil upon all flesh, saith the LORD: but thy life will I give unto thee for a prey in all places whither thou goest.

 

Lamentations 4:10: The hands of the pitiful women have sodden their own children: they were their meat in the destruction of the daughter of my people.

 

Ezekial 5:10: Therefore the fathers shall eat the sons in the midst of thee, and the sons shall eat their fathers; and I will execute judgments in thee, and the whole remnant of thee will I scatter into all the winds.

 

Ezekial 6:10: And they shall know that I am the LORD, and that I have not said in vain that I would do this evil unto them.

 

Ezekial 8:18: Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them.

 

Ok seriously that's enough for now I think. But all of that is not even one tenth of the cruelty, anger, hatred, impatience, injustice, horror, and suffering that God delights in and brings to humans he doesn't like, and even sometimes those he does like.

 

If anyone deserves an eternity of torture and damnation, it's God. In fact, the more I read, the more this God of yours sounds exactly like Satan. All the fire raining from the sky, burning people to death, mutilating their bodies and the bodies of their children, making them eat each other, laying waste to millions of people and sparing none, his obsession with blood, his insistence on male genital mutilation (circumcision -why did God even make foreskins if he hates them so much?), war, famine, disease, plagues, pestilence, fear... all these things pretty much sound exactly like Satan. Perhaps the greatest trick Satan ever achieved was not to make people think he doesn't exist, but to make people believe that he is God. Maybe all you Christians who so easily forget about him aren't giving him enough credit. After all, Satan was the first-born son of God, even getting first chance to come up with a divine plan before Jesus, and was renowned in heaven as a great General and tactician. You think he's been idle all these milennia? You think that the best he can come up with is terrorists and suicide bombers? You think his greatest achievement would be so obvious as Hitler? And you think he would be so easily thwarted? C'mon, I've done a sh*tload of religious reading in my life, and not just the Bible. The books of Enoch and the Dead Sea Scrolls are full of stuff the Bible doesn't touch on, not to mention various other texts found throughout history. And Satan (Samael, not Lucifer, who was Samael's first Leiutenant) was a pretty clever guy. He was second only to God until the creation of the Divine plan and his subsequent fall. He has access to all the knowledge you don't. He knows your mind inside and out. He is outside of the physical realm, and has all the advantages thereof. And he's a f*cking genius who managed to convince 1/3rd of the angels of heaven to side with him against the Creator God. Now, angels aren't stupid, and God is supposedly omnipotent, so you'd think that getting people to help you fight him would be harder than anything else in the universe, especially when they live with him and see his glory on a daily basis. But Samael managed to get a full third of the hosts of heaven on his side. I'd say he must be a pretty clever mofo.

 

And he has one major advantage. He doesn't care about free will. God might be happy to just let mankind find him in their own time and have faith through their own convictions, but Samael just wants to spite God, so will do whatever is necessary. You think he couldn't beat you at chess? You think he doesn't know what it would take to make you believe that he is God? You think he doesn't realise how easy it is to blind people? You think he would do anything at all that would strengthen your faith in the true God (like send terrorists to bomb your cities, which has the sole effect of strengthening the faith of the Christians)? sh*t, just look at the Bible, and I mean REALLY look at it. Look at all the things which God does (I've only provided a small sample). Look at the sort of sh*t he has people believing: "I'll be saved by faith alone, so I can sin however I want" = more sinners. Isn't that exactly what Samael would want? People who are blind to their own damnation? "All humans are born sinners" = you can't be sin-free so don't try + even newborn babies will go to hell. Isn't that the sort of thing that a hateful angel like Samael would want you to believe? It certainly doesn't look anything like the sort of thing a loving God would want you to believe. Intolerance, persecution capital punishment, war, fear, and pagan rituals, all thinly veiled and mixed in with hollow messages of love, mercy, peace, and kindness, and wrapped up in a fearful ribbon of perpetual apocalypse. Sounds exactly like the text of the father of lies to me. And damned if he hasn't succeeded admirably.

 

No, I don't believe in Satan, nor God. But c'mon people, at least try to open your eyes to things which maybe, just maybe, are more likely to be true than what you currently believe. It might be hard, but if you truly love your beliefs, set them free and see how they fair.

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someone please explain how is israel becoming a nation.

 

i found these and i thought that bible prophecies are becoming real

 

WORLD TERRORISTS STRIKE AT WILL - ANYWHERE - ANYTIME -

 

CRISIS IN MIDDLE EAST -

 

WORLDWIDE FAMINES AND DROUGHTS -

 

WORLD NEEDS A SUPERMAN -

 

UN CANNOT BRING PEACE -

 

WORLD PROSPECTS DARKEN -

 

WORLD'S ECO-SYSTEMS ON VERGE OF COMPLETE COLLAPSE -

 

WORLDWIDE DISEASE EPIDEMICS -

 

CRIME AND TERRORISM ON THE INCREASE -

 

IMPLANTABLE MICROCHIPS - HUMAN ID AND TRACKING SYSTEM NOW APPROVED -

 

GLOBAL WARMING THREATENS WORLD POPULATION -

 

EARTHQUAKES EVERYWHERE -

 

AFRICA SUCCUMBS TO AIDS, FAMINE AND WAR-

 

WORLD OIL CRISIS LOOMS ON HORIZON -

 

WORLD'S WEATHER OUT OF CONTROL -

 

WORLD-WIDE ECONOMIC MELTDOWN -

 

for me, i know that the bible aint bullsh*t.

 

 

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HAHAHAHAHAHA.

 

 

 

I did that once and it said TOM IS NEW GOD. I'm Tom. Worship me.

 

 

 

 

 

@Mort: I was just agreeing with you there. It's sad that people would take a book written two thousand years ago over simple human logic and reasoning. Logic is all we have, and when you don't use it, well, you have nothing.

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MoiRiv, what the hell are you talking about? Do you have any idea how many times over the last few thousand years people have been convinced that the end-times were coming? Hell, Jesus told the people that the apocalypse would come before they had died:

 

Luke 21:32: Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

 

Matthew 16:28: Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

 

Matthew 10:23: But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Many hundreds of times in the last two millenia, people have thought the prophecies of the Bible were being fulfilled. The prophecies even applied to people in Jesus' day, and were so convincing, they even convinced Jesus that the end was nigh.

 

 

WORLD TERRORISTS STRIKE AT WILL - ANYWHERE - ANYTIME -

Really? Where? Let's see, there was 9-11, then Bali........

 

OMG we're all in perpetual danger!!!!

 

Gimme a break. You probably bought all that sh*t about SARS too, didn't you?

 

 

CRISIS IN MIDDLE EAST -

 

WORLDWIDE FAMINES AND DROUGHTS -

When has there NOT been a crisis in the middle east?

 

Also I wasn't aware of any "worldwide" famines. I seem to be doing alright, and I haven't had to step over any wasting bodies when I walk down the street. Perhaps you are mistaking a few countried in Africa which have been desolated by capitalistic and militaristic governments for the world?

 

 

WORLD NEEDS A SUPERMAN -

... sarcasm.gif

 

 

UN CANNOT BRING PEACE -

You can thank the USA for that. But I can't recall any specific mention of teh United Nations in the Bible, perhaps you could cite verses to support this as a portent of armaggedon?

 

 

WORLD PROSPECTS DARKEN -

Well, I don't know what "world prospects" are, but they've probably been darkening for the last... ooooh... few million years, ever since humanity evolved as a species capable of "intelligent" thought.

 

 

WORLD'S ECO-SYSTEMS ON VERGE OF COMPLETE COLLAPSE -

Really? Funny that I've never heard of this. Sources? A few extinct species doesn't mean collapse of eco-systems. Species have been going extinct since they first evolved, it's all part of evolution:the fit survive, and the unfit die.

 

 

WORLDWIDE DISEASE EPIDEMICS -

You DID believe that SARS sh*t didn't you? I haven't heard of a single disease epidemic that has ever been worldwide. Maybe nation wide, but that's a much smaller scale, and even then the actual impact is far less than you'd imagine. Even ebola, one of the deadliest diseases in the world, only kills 80% of the people who catch it.

 

 

CRIME AND TERRORISM ON THE INCREASE -

And funnily enough, so are population figures!!! But those two things could never be related... sarcasm.gif

 

 

IMPLANTABLE MICROCHIPS - HUMAN ID AND TRACKING SYSTEM NOW APPROVED -

OH NO! Technology!!! The tool of Satan! Run for your lives!!! Back to the caves and straw huts and sacrificing two goats daily!

 

 

GLOBAL WARMING THREATENS WORLD POPULATION -

Well I sure feel threatened... also it'd be great if you could show me the verse where it describes global warming as a sign of impending doom. Perhaps there's a verse in Revelations, 34:56: "And it shall come to pass that the average temperature will increase by about 3-7 degrees over a period of around 50-100 years due to industrial pollution, and yay, it shall be quite warm across all the earth."?

 

 

EARTHQUAKES EVERYWHERE -

No, not everywhere, mostly along faultlines. And occuring with no more frequency than they ever have.

 

 

AFRICA SUCCUMBS TO AIDS, FAMINE AND WAR-

Maybe God is just trying to say hello. That's how he does it, you know. Some people might walk up, shake your hand, and say "Hi, I'm the LORD". But when God introduces himself, he sends famine, pestilence, disease, death, and war. That's how we know his name.

 

But I was unaware the Bible prophecied about AIDS, or even Africa.

 

 

WORLD OIL CRISIS LOOMS ON HORIZON -

...or oil.

 

 

WORLD'S WEATHER OUT OF CONTROL -

That's odd, because it seems quite orderly to me. And the weatherman on TV seems to do a pretty good job at predicting it, which is remarkable because from the little I know about weather, it's exceedingly complex. But far from being out of control. I have yet to see a snowstorm in the middle of summer here in Australia, nor experience a scorching hot day in winter. Funny that.

 

 

WORLD-WIDE ECONOMIC MELTDOWN -

If this is happening (which I don't know if it is, it's probably too early to tell), then it's probably got something to do with the mechanism of captalism, making the rich richer, and the poor poorer, and forever excluding more and more people from being rich. But I can't remember ever seeing a prophecy about economic melt-down in the Bible, so I'm not sure how you see this as a sign of the apocalypse. If I were you I'd keep my eye out for the real obvious signs, just to err of the side of caution, like the moon turning red as blood, for example. That way people like me can't easily dispute everything you say.

 

 

for me, i know that the bible aint bullsh*t.

Then this I say unto you: verily, go ye in unto thyself, and get thee from my sight.

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Sonny Vercitti

The Bible is filled with too many contradictions for me to believe it. Yes it is very sad that people are so weak and out of control of their lives that they believe in a book that does not give any evidence that it is actually true. Hell, there is even a part at the start of the book that does not make sense since it says that God created two great lights which are of coure the moon and the sun. Since when was the moon an actual light? notify.gif

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@Sonny Vercitti:

If you use A type of mirror to reflect the light from your living room to light your bedroom, would you consider that A light for your bedroom?

 

@Mortukai:

Well the answer to your questions about the grandmother story would be no, no and no. But,

my punishment would not based on what the grandmother and the great grandmother has done,

its would be based on the nature that I have that is corrupted. The only way to fix my corrupted

mature is to replace it. Even thou I did not do that crime, I am still corrupted. I have a corrupt nature.

I don't love everybody as much as I love myself. If I was a millionaire and your computer broke, I would not buy you a new one and send it to your house. Why not? I got the money, but I am selfish. If my girl looked at a man I would be jealous. That would be understandable but if I got jealous because your car is better than mine, that mite cause me to do something to yours. That would be evil.

 

Angry, jealous, vengeful, hateful, malicious, sadistic, war-like, impatient, unforgiving, unmerciful, unjust, or just plain old mean.

ok, that also describes me. So why did I say you? Just to be mean. Did I hit you or kill you, no, but I was mean to you. Thats my corrupt nature. Because of that sin, I should not go to heaven.

I told you that you are ignorant and that I would not miss you. But I know that you are not really a ignorant person, and yea, I did kinda miss you a little. So why did I say the things I said?

Because you made me angry, and I was being vengeful, unforgiving, unmerciful, and just plain old mean. Also a lier. Undeserving of heaven.

 

With that type of attitude, how could I go to heaven?

I would never kill anyone, I don't steel, but what about being impatient. vengeful. angry. and plain old mean sometimes.

 

If I had everlasting life in a perfect world, with that type of nature what do you think would happen? We would end up with this kind of world forever.

You would have to give all the evil natured people in the world that wants to participate, a new nature, that do not crave sin through the flesh. Or distroy the hole thing, replace us with robot like humans that are good because they don't have the free will knowledge of good and evil. But what about my flesh and all the evil we have done? What about justice for all the sin. That mean talk that sinful talk I said to you has to be paid for. It was just a little talk but it was sin. Sin = death.

 

We shuld have built a utopia by now, wtf.

 

Their are good reasons why God hardens the Pharoah's heart, and sent plagues, why they were destine to eat the flesh of their sons and all that stuff. Allot of hard teaching, examples, and discipline. It is not ez to get through to us. And it is not just us. Angels too! what the hell, All that crap has to be fixed. It started up there anyway.

 

And you are right, satan is smart. Smart enough to be part of Gods plan, the destruction of sin. and his everlasting place in hell.

 

We will have a new body that do not get sick or dye. The new body will replace sinful flesh. Holy spirit will replace the sinful nature. The removing of satan. and man will be perfect. With free will and the knowledge of good, evil and more, but will only do good by our own choice.

 

And it wasn't "humans God did not like", those people were really evil. That part of his creation had to be taken out. They would have destroyed everything way before now and we would not be here.

I really don't want to make A long post, there is so much out of context, and this can go on and on and on and on and on.

 

I think proving that God do not exist, will never happen. The things you say, and the knowledge you have led me to believe that you know that there is a God.

Whether you want to believe in him is up to you.

 

MORTUKAI said.

"No, I don't believe in Satan, nor God. But c'mon people, at least try to open your eyes to things which maybe, just maybe, are more likely to be true than what you currently believe. It might be hard, but if you truly love your beliefs, set them free and see how they fair".

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Sonny Vercitti

 

@Sonny Vercitti:

If you use A type of mirror to reflect the light from your living room to light your bedroom, would you consider that A light for your bedroom?

 

But why doesn't God just say that than? He could explain the moon and sh*t like that but instead he just says two great lights and then he goes on to talk about something else.

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@Sonny Vercitti:

If you use A type of mirror to reflect the light from your living room to light your bedroom, would you consider that A light for your bedroom?

 

But why doesn't God just say that than? He could explain the moon and sh*t like that but instead he just says two great lights and then he goes on to talk about something else.

huumm Idonno Sonny Vercitti,

maybe he felt that the details of reflections was not important at the time.

Anyway, that would not be hard for us to figure out.

Edited by ctel
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Sonny Vercitti
@Sonny Vercitti:

If you use A type of mirror to reflect the light from your living room to light your bedroom, would you consider that A light for your bedroom?

 

But why doesn't God just say that than? He could explain the moon and sh*t like that but instead he just says two great lights and then he goes on to talk about something else.

huumm Idonno Sonny Vercitti,

maybe he felt that the details of reflections was not important at the time.

Anyway, that would not be hard for us to figure out.

That really does not make sense to me since if you've created the Earth wouldn't you want to add as many details as you could and even give some proof instead of writing down a whole bunch of rules? Hell, I still don't understand why I didn't hear God talking back to me whenever I prayed a while ago.

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Quote Eviscero:

"Or maybe he found out after the last copy of the bible was written". lol

 

Quote, Sonny Vercitti:

"That really does not make sense to me since if you've created the Earth wouldn't you want to add as many details as you could and even give some proof instead of writing down a whole bunch of rules? Hell, I still don't understand why I didn't hear God talking back to me whenever I prayed a while ago".

 

You know if I made the Earth, I wouldn't tell nothing about what I made cuss

the more you know, the better the chances that you will f#ck it up!

you no what i mean.

 

And I would only give you rules to keep you from killing somebody, yourself and or messing up my what I made.

And as far as talking back to you whenever you prayed,

if you are begging for the same old selfish stuff, I would not hear you.

But I would teach you how to pray. Teach you some communication skills.

 

But if I made A world you wouldn't need to pray cuss I would not give you free will, or no tree with no good and evil knowledge. you will have to be good because in my world you wouldnt know nothing els.

But hay, thats just me.

Edited by ctel
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Why is that funny? Jesus didn't know that the sun was the center of the galaxy. There's a lot Jesus didn't know. If he knew everything, why would he keep it to himself? Stupid little questions like these that lead nowhere are the precise reason that I hate talking about this sh*t.

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Sonny Vercitti
Quote Eviscero:

"Or maybe he found out after the last copy of the bible was written". lol

 

Quote, Sonny Vercitti:

"That really does not make sense to me since if you've created the Earth wouldn't you want to add as many details as you could and even give some proof instead of writing down a whole bunch of rules? Hell, I still don't understand why I didn't hear God talking back to me whenever I prayed a while ago".

 

You know if I made the Earth, I wouldn't tell nothing about what I made cuss

the more you know, the better the chances that you will f#ck it up!

you no what i mean.

 

And I would only give you rules to keep you from killing somebody, yourself and or messing up my what I made.

And as far as talking back to you whenever you prayed,

if you are begging for the same old selfish stuff, I would not hear you.

But I would teach you how to pray. Teach you some communication skills.

 

But if I made A world you wouldn't need to pray cuss I would not give you free will, or no tree with no good and evil knowledge. you will have to be good because in my world you wouldnt know nothing els.

But hay, thats just me.

But we're not talking about what you'd do. If you're trying to say that your God didn't explain because we'd f*ck up Earth than why did he even create the Bible?

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