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Certainty of Atheism


BenMillard

Recommended Posts

 

God exist. Otherwise, when did the universe start and how? Spontanious generation has already been proven not to exist.

When I saw this, I decided to just give up on this thread. Some people are just way too f*cking stupid. Like trying to teach my cat to type, and getting frustrated at it. So I decided to just give up.

 

But now I've calmed down a bit, and decided to be far more selective in who I respond to.

 

 

I disagree. Let's say there are six basic colors (Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Violet). Now, we are living in a state right now that is lacking a seventh basic color. We don't understand the lack of the seventh color, because we have no alternative to compare it to, but surely, we live in a state lacking it. Just like if light did not exist, we would be in a dark state. We wouldn't understand the alternative, because we aren't familiar with both scenarios (having and lacking), but the state of darkness would be just as real as the state of light.

You've missed my point. My point wasn't talking about the specifics of a given condition over another. I was using light as an analogy, meaning it was not a perfect fit, but illustrated general principles. If it was a perfect fit, it wouldn't be an analogy.

 

But you've helped me with my point. You can't describe a "seventh" colour without reference to the other six. It's not a matter of understanding, it's a matter of relativity. Einstein proposed that all things are relative. I couldn't agree more. He used simple examples so that normal people could understand what he meant, like size, speed, and direction. These are things we all have experience with, and we can easily undertand how these properties are purely relative. But his principle is universal. EVERYTHING is relative. No exceptions.

 

So what happens when you take away everything that a thing could be relative to? This is where the light/dark analogy fails, because even though we've removed light, we still have the rest of the universe to compare things to. So long as there are two things that exist, there is always something for everything else to be relative to. These two things don't even need to be seperate physical entities. They can be two aspects of the same object. If a ball is the only thing which exists, and nothing else exists, not even the possibility of non-existence, then we can still see that the colour of that ball is different from the shape of it, and thus it has at least two properties which can be relative to each other.

 

But at the most absolutely fundamental level, when you take away everything else in the entire universe, we have existence and non-existence. These things cannot be reduced any further than that, because EVERYTHING can be understood as either existing or not existing, even to the point where existence and non-existence themselves can be understood to either exist or not. This is the most basic of all conditions. And without anything else, if these two things were the only two things that could ever exist, then neither can exist without the other, because relativity doesn't allow it.

 

I grant that it is a very difficult concept to grasp, especially when all you have to work with are human experiences, but I can assure you the logic is impeccable. If you want, you can try to describe how existence could exist without non-existence, or vice versa, but you will always fail.

 

 

For objects to only have properties relative to other things requires other things to have properties. These other properties then have to be relative to yet more things and the argument becomes recursive and regressive without foundation.

It's a matter of breaking things down to the lowest common denominator. When you do, you find that infinity is an underlying principle, and by its nature, infinity requires infinite regression, progressoin, recursiveness, etc. The only foundation necessary is this principle. Logically, if we extend investigation back as far as is possible, we either come to a single point where we cannot understand the lowest foundation because there can be no logic beneath it to support it (it is the prime orginator of existence, and thus logic, and cannot be reduced and understood any further than itself), OR, we find an infinity, which looks almost the same because we cannot break it down into anything more fundamental.

 

 

The Universe is one object, yet you often refer to properties it has. What are you comparing it to? The Universe contains everything, so there would be nothing left to compare the Universe to and so, by your reasoning, it could not be given any properties. This means your point A cannot be true because it prevents the Universe from having properties and cannot find a starting point from which to define any properties anyway.

I'm comparing the "everything" of the universe to the "nothing" of "not-the-universe". "Nothing" is a property, because, as you so rightly note below, properties are descriptions of human observations (where observations is extended to include internal investigation). The "starting point", as noted above, is between nothing and something, beyond which no more fundamental aspect can be understod.

 

 

My understanding was that when Humans talk about properties, they are describing their observation rathar than what actually might be in front of them.

Are you familiar with Kant's distinction between the noumenal and the phenomenal realms? Quite applicable, I think. To everything, really.

 

 

What is to prevent time from terminating? You have previously suggested that other dimensions terminate, so why not time too?

BUZZZZ! WRONG! You should know this cerbera, shame on you! Spacial dimensions do not terminate. But they also do not extend linearly infinitely. The spacial dimensions ARE infinite, but if you were somehow able to float outside the universe, it would look like a big sphere. So how can these two things be true? Because the dimensions are curvi-linear, and they "compress" around the "surface" of the universe. This is because the dimensions exist, so they are contained within the universe, which from an external vantage point, would appear to be of finite size. If you travel to the "edge" of the universe in a straight line, nothing will seem to change for you. You could do this for eternity without noticing anything. But relative to someone sitting just inside the edge of the universe, you would appear to fly right at them, then turn at the edge, and start travelling around the surface of the universe. But because it was the dimensions themselves which curved, you'd not notice a thing, and would think you were still travelling in a straight line. Only relativity allows the truth to be seen. (actually, technically, the observer wouldn't notice anything either, because even light would be bent by the dimensions, but that's getting too complicated).

 

No dimensions (spacial or temporal) ever terminate. But all are contained within the universe.

 

----

 

Regarding agnosticism, you can't very well espouse being "open-minded" to the possibilities if you will never actually choose one over another. There's no point in keeping your options open if you'll never take any option. You'll be on your death bed thinking "Ahhh, my life is fulfilled because I never took a stand on anything, took any risks, or believed in anything. Now I can die with no idea what the hell is going to happen, but I guess I'll find out when I get there, and then I'll keep my options open to not discount the possibility that things could have happened contrary to how they did". Being truly open-minded is not the same as having an empty head, its being willing to accept and integrate new knowledge as it arises, and adusting your position accordingly after rigorous analyses of the positions. You can't adjust your position if you don't have a position inthe first place.

 

In other words, get some f*cking balls and use your brain to make actual decisions, instead of as some tollgate merely collating data on the various possibilities you COULD choose, were you that way inclined.

 

@ctel: Please, dude, read up on evolution. Go to a library and borrow "Origin of the Species" or surf the web for scientific accounts (NOT religious accounts) of evolution. You'll soon discover that the whole "custom made specifically for us" load of sh*t would actually be more accurate if it was "we were tailored specifically to our place this world". The fact that we have food, water, air, plants, etc, is no more an argument for God than it is an argument for technologically advanced aliens who planted us here, or any other number of gods from any of earth's religions. But if you learn about the truth of evolution (and don't just dismiss it because it is not in accordance with your beliefs), you'll find that it makes a hell of a lot of sense.

 

Oh, and thanks for reminding me about this. It's from an email I recieved a little while ago, that I thought was absolutely priceless. Definitely ranks highly with the whole "religious people are absolute nutters who selectively interpret the bible to mean what they want it to mean, and ignore everything that they don't personally agree with":

 

Laura Schlessinger is a US radio personality, who dispenses advice to

people who call in to her radio show. On her radio show recently, she said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination, according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The following response is an open letter to Dr. Laura, penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as thought-provoking.

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination...End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.

 

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

 

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

 

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness -Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

 

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is, my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them.. Should I smite them?

 

5. I have a neighbours who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

 

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

 

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

 

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

 

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

 

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16). Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14) I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging. Your adoring fan,

Ahh, God: what a crazy monkey!

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QUOTE: Mortukai"s QUOTE

Oh, and thanks for reminding me about this. It's from an email I recieved a little while ago, that I thought was absolutely priceless. Definitely ranks highly with the whole "religious people are absolute nutters who selectively interpret the bible to mean what they want it to mean, and ignore everything that they don't personally agree with":

QUOTE

Laura Schlessinger is a US radio personality, who dispenses advice to

people who call in to her radio show. On her radio show recently, she said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination, according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The following response is an open letter to Dr. Laura, penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as thought-provoking.

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination...End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.

 

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

 

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

 

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness -Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

 

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is, my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them.. Should I smite them?

 

5. I have a neighbours who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

 

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

 

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

 

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

 

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

 

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16). Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14) I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging. Your adoring fan,

 

Now just what do that bull crap have to do with anything???...

QUOTE

Instructions on how to live in one time period does not apply to us in this time period.

Some people don't know what instructions to follow.

and religion don't help any.

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Ok, first ctel, learn how to use the quote tags. It's not hard, they've even got a little button and everything.

 

Second, notice how I said "thanks for reminding me", not, "you are a moron and here is why". I was not attacking you. I know what you said, and it reminded me of that part you quoted. That is all.

 

But now that you've misinterpreted me already, let's play.

 

I'm amused by the concept of a supreme God, omniscient and perfect in all ways, who changes His mind to fit with the social era of humans. So things that were once sins, now become fine and dandy. Something that was once punishable by death, is now only deserving of a slight frown. It's almost like God was wrong back then, and now that humanity has advanced so much, He's seen the light and changed his opinion.

 

It's almost like He wasn't actually perfect back then when He made up those crazy rules, which we modern and enlightened humans can see for the folly they are.

 

I just love how we know more about how we should live than God does. He sure is a pretty neat guy then, to be so accomodating to our desires.

 

But hang on. Didn't God predict the complete deterioration of all morals and values before the end? Didn't He prophecy that even His church would fall away from Him? Like way back when He was saying what was right and wrong, He knew the future and told of how all of mankind would turn their back on Him, thinking that they know best?

 

I'm pretty sure that's in the Bible.

 

So maybe, just maybe, God hasn't changed His mind. Maybe, God was right all along, and mankind has truly fallen away from His word, thinking themselves to know better than God. Even His own church. Maybe when God, in all His holy wisdom, declares that X sin is punishable by death, maybe he really actually meant that, and wasn't really just saying it for the people who were alive around the time of Jesus. Maybe God's Law is eternal?

 

Or then again, maybe He doesn't give a sh*t and was just f*cking with your heads?

 

Perhaps it's more plausible that the reason tbe Bible is outdated, is because it was written by man, for man, and man, unlike the concept of a perfect God, changes over time. Perhaps the whole idea of God is just a load of sh*t, and people need to wake up to reality and stop deluding themselves about their own microcosmic interpretations of reality based on a fairy-tale told to frighten children into being doing what their parents tell them to do.

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OK Mortukai I know how to use them I just don't use them the way you do.

I did not misinterpreted what you quoted, its just that you are trying to make

Christians look bad in contrast to science.

The old testament is out dated, basically its just world history about God and his

relationship with us then. Just like you studied science, you need to studied God

from experts that know what they are talking about. God does not change his mind.

that was the reason for Jesus. the rules that he made could not be fulfilled by us.

God knows that the people he created would not be perfect, with free will...

A sacrifice was made by God. because we will always sin, even in our minds.

So his son died for the sins that we did.. that is why he called it a gift. you can't earn it by doing anything. but religion will tell you that you have to earn it by being good. sins cannot be reversed. but they can be taken up by some one els. Jesus is like a lawyer that speaks for you, takes the blame for you, goes to jail for you, then takes the death penalty for you. Then God is free to except you. you are spiritually baptized to become a child of God. Nothing you do will change that because the gift is not based on what you do, but on what you believe. Most religion will never tell you that because they will lose money. just like that Email you got. She did not tell her adoring fan the truth.

She want her to keep listening. if that adoring fan knew that they do not live by the old testament, and understood God, she would not listen station any more.

Religion wants you to keep giving money because the old testament said give 10%. Then they want you to keep asking to be forgiven for your sin that Jesus already died for.

"X sin is punishable by death, he really actually meant that". that is why Jesus had to die.

God's Law is eternal. "He was not just f*cking with your head".

But he wants us to be good with out the threat of punishment.

"He is not really being so accommodating to our desires", but you can't give a person supplies to make anything then dictate what to make. you can't expect a person to just be good with out experiencing what is bad. you can't expect God to set up a government and we accept it without knowing ours would fail.

everything that God wants us to be still applies. and there will come a time when we will be ready to fulfill God laws. but first we have to prove to ourselves that we cannot run he world with our vain ideas, or without his help.

Study God from experts, and stop listening to Christians looking for the answer. Ther is alot about God you could learn.

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ohokwelliguesshatsperfectlyalrightthensolongasyouknowhowtousethemandarejustchoosingtousetheminadifferentway

 

What's that? You had difficulty reading that last sentence? Don't worry, I know how to use spaces, I just don't use them the way you do.

 

Was I trying to make Christians look bad in contrast to science? In an atheism thread? Shame on me! I guess that makes me a mean and bad man then. tsk tsk

 

Also, I have studied God from experts that know what they are talking about. I was born and raised as a Christian. Which is why I know you are 100% wrong about something very important:

 

 

...the gift is not based on what you do, but on what you believe.

Holy sh*t you couldn't be more wrong. So Charles Manson is going to heaven huh? Hitler too? Gee, I guess I better jump on the "believe in God" bandwagon so I can do whatever I want with no fear of punishment. In fact, I'll be f*cking rewarded! Like I get to heaven, and St. Nobody is standing there at the Pearly Gates, and he says to me "Gee, it looks like you had quite a wild life! You murdered and tortured children, raped , pillaged, stole, vandalised, commited fraud, decieved your fellow man, and basically brought pain and suffering to everyone around you. But let me ask you one thing: Did you believe in Christ as your Lord and saviour?", and I'm all like "Hell yeah motherf*cker! That bitch be watching me back. The JC is down brother, y'kno wha' I'm sayin'?" (yes, I would speak like an illeterate gangsta wannabe), and the Saint would be all like "Well homie it's all good! Jesus already suffered for your sins, and only asked that you believe in him in return, so now it's party time nigga! Come right in and make yo'self at home!"

 

No. Sorry. Time to wake up. There are many instances in the Bible where people who believed in God, and indeed, actually had direct communications with Him regularly, were justly Smiten for going against His word. Now you could probably argue some stupid sh*t about how "well if you truly believed in God, then you wouldn't do bad things", but that's both a load of sh*t and ignoring the problem. If that were true, then no-one truly believes in God, because EVERYONE does "bad things". Also, cults who worship Satan definitely believe in God, because God is their enemy, and unlike Christians, most Satan worshippers are smart enough to "know thy enemy".

 

Therefore belief may be necessary (which is a whole other debate that I've visited many times before), but it is FAR from sufficient.

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ohokwelliguesshatsperfectlyalrightthensolongasyouknowhowtousethemandarejustchoosingtousetheminadiffe

rentway lol lol lol...........

 

the gift is not based on what you do, but on what you believe.

Holy sh*t you couldn't be more wrong. So Charles Manson is going to heaven huh? Hitler too? Gee, I guess I better jump on the "believe in God" bandwagon so I can do whatever I want with no fear of punishment

 

Thats why Fools like Charles Manson will not get there because

he will never believe that...

Believing in God or knowing there is a God is not the same as

believing Jesus died for your sins....

think about it.

EVERYONE does "bad things"...you are right, but what you don't understand the reson for Jesus.

in this world we will always sin in what we do and think, and without Jesus we would all go to hell.

People that believe that Jesus died for the sin they do will not stop sining. we can't stop.

But they will be given a new spirit that will not sin.

And the evil influence will not be there.

 

: Max1millionP

I still haven't seen indisputable PROOF that God doesn't exist. I just see opinions, thoughts, and lies.

 

and you never will see that PROOF,

just lots of anger and denial.

Edited by ctel
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I still haven't seen indisputable PROOF that invisible pink unicorns don't exist. I just see opinions, thoughts, and lies.

But this topic is about disproving God exists, not proving.

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I still haven't seen indisputable PROOF that God doesn't exist. I just see opinions, thoughts, and lies.

Well, what sorts of things would you consider to actually constitute "indisputable proof"? Seriously, if you can, think up something that would satisfy your criteria for indisputable proof, and explain why it is so. I'm also curious as to how this proof would identifiably differ from opinions and thoughts.

 

Also, I see no lies here. Falseties, perhaps, but not lies. A lie is when somebody says something that they know to be false. It requires the intent to decieve. Otherwise it is not a lie, it is merely not the truth.

 

 

Thats why Fools like Charles Manson will not get there because

he will never believe that...

Believing in God or knowing there is a God is not the same as

believing Jesus died for your sins....

think about it.

EVERYONE does "bad things"...you are right, but what you don't understand the reson for Jesus.

in this world we will always sin in what we do and think, and without Jesus we would all go to hell.

People that believe that Jesus died for the sin they do will not stop sining. we can't stop.

But they will be given a new spirit that will not sin.

And the evil influence will not be there.

I like how you can claim knowledge as to exactly what Charles Manson believes, and what he doesn't. Has he confided these things to you? It's common knowledge that he's a Christian, but somehow you know which parts of Christianity he REALLY believes in, and which parts he doesn't. Amazing.

 

And you are right. Belief in Jesus' sacrifice and belief in God ARE two different things, but for a Christian, the former presupposes the latter. Conversely, Jews believe in only the latter, and not the former. I guess that because Jews believe in God, and only Christians go to heaven, and all that is required to go to heaven is a belief in God, then Jews must be Christians! That must be a shock to them!

 

So Christians have TWO spirits do they? A new "clean" spirit that they get when they believe in God, and an old "unclean" one that they always have. And somehow the new one can co-exist with the old one in the same body, despite the fact that the body is perpetually sinning. Hmm, something seems incredibly bullsh*t about all that. Maybe you should explain yourself a bit better.

 

But let me get this straight. Overall, you believe that not only is God real, perfect, and pure in all ways, but that he also does things for ABSOLUTELY NO REASON? Think about this for a second. He creates man, and creates man in such a way so that it can never NOT sin, thus ensuring all mankind finds a place in hell. So all his creations are thus imperfect by design. Then he thinks "Wait, this is f*cked up, I better do something about this", so he gives them a bunch of divine rules they must follow. Hell, they aren't even rules, they are COMMANDMENTS. And he also makes a whole sh*tload of other rules about all sorts of sh*t, like what you can wear and eat and touch, even going so far as describing the penalty for disobeying these rules (usually death in some nasty way). Then he realises that with all these rules, people are now sinning more than ever! Because there are now more things that are sins! So he gives his only begotten son, that he might die for everyone's sins, that all who believeth in him shall be saved....

 

So now all his rules and commandments are worthless. They mean absolutely nothing. It doesn't matter if you follow them or not, because adherence to the rules has nothing to do with entering heaven. Only belief in God. The whole bible could be reduced down to a single convincing argument that God exists and you should believe in him, and all that stuff about how to live and what is a sin and what isn't could just be thrown away. After all, once you believe in God, his spirit will guide you anyways.

 

And you believe this sh*t? That he has all these rules for no real reason? That belief is the only requirement for salvation?

 

Lemme guess... you're a catholic right?

 

 

But this topic is about disproving God exists, not proving.

Proving one side of an argument is the same as disproving the other side. But disproving one side is NOT the same as proving the other, because there could be another option. So this topic is about PROVING that God does not exist. If you wish to counter this proposition, then either present arguments that prove that God does exist, or present counter-arguments that disprove arguments that God does not exist. Otherwise stfu and go play in Gen Chat.

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Mortukai, I read your post! Aren't you proud of me? Although the long winded explinations and over extended responses (you know, if you used smaller words you could get your point across that much faster and save your fingers a load of typing wink.gif) were somewhat boring and repetitive but, despite that I did it! I hope you're proud of me.

 

You haven't proved a thing though. These are your beliefs, beliefs that cannot be backed up. As the beliefs for anyone who believes in a higher being cannot be backed up...or proven. A nice little paradox, I guess we won't know until we die. If there's nothing, well damn, you were right. I will give you credit. If someone else who believed in a higher power was right...well damn, good for them. You haven't been able to prove (like cold hard evidence) that nothing exists beyond though.

 

Now what I find somewhat humorous is that you claim to be so intelligent, and you obviously think of yourself as a very skilled debater...I took the time (my God, did it take some time) and liberty to find your childlike frustrations coming out when someone said something that either bothered you, you didn't agree with, or just felt like critisizing them.

 

 

When I saw this, I decided to just give up on this thread. Some people are just way too f*cking stupid. Like trying to teach my cat to type, and getting frustrated at it. So I decided to just give up.

 

 

Actually, despite his poor reasoning andsimple stupidity, kahuna has touched upon a point.

 

 

@ ctel: Jesus Christ motherfuker, did you even read Cerbera's posts? Who let you near a computer? f*ck off.

 

 

@soldier: What the f*ck is going on? Are we having some sort of asshole dipsh*t convention here or something? How do you breathe? f*ck off.

 

 

I treat swine like swine, and princes like princes.

Now, there are different types of intelligence, I will give you that...but I see you aren't very socially adapt.

 

Please, if someone doesn't agree with what you believe...take a step back...then take a breath...and say to yourself, "It's not a big deal." Then go and read some more Voltaire in your room which is probably painted completely black, with a matress with its left side flush against the wall, and a single light hanging down from the center of the room.

 

Oh and by the way...this is for everyone, those were only several insults. I didn't want to run out of space to type.

Edited by Lazzo
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Well, what sorts of things would you consider to actually constitute "indisputable proof"? Seriously, if you can, think up something that would satisfy your criteria for indisputable proof, and explain why it is so. I'm also curious as to how this proof would identifiably differ from opinions and thoughts.

The topic said that it showed God does not exist. I see nothing showing God doesn't exist.

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Clearly God doesn't exist, as Mortukai is still posting and I have made SO many prayers.... wink.giflol.gif

 

On a more serious note, I think the God issue is a very sensitive one but, as Lazzo says, we will never really know until we die and maybe not even then. I heard that God is very aloof regarding personal appearances, and he usually has his speech written for him by his angel helpers. You'll probably just get to speak to his second in command, or his secretary Brandy (the traditional spelling).

 

What I find interesting is that those who do follow religion these days believe in one specific God. However, in the times of the ancient Greeks there were a number of different gods, all with their own personalities and demands. I have never really asked a religious man from today what he thinks of that. After all, the belief in one God is based solely on faith - as has been raised here on a number of occasions there is no proof that a God exists. Yet, surely if we take this viewpoint then the ancient Greeks were equally valid in their worship of many different Gods.

 

A slight anomaly....as todays worshippers would denounce such a position. Or do they?

 

I'd be interested to hear the views on this.

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Clearly God doesn't exist, as Mortukai is still posting and I have made SO many prayers.... wink.giflol.gif

 

On a more serious note, I think the God issue is a very sensitive one but, as Lazzo says, we will never really know until we die and maybe not even then. I heard that God is very aloof regarding personal appearances, and he usually has his speech written for him by his angel helpers. You'll probably just get to speak to his second in command, or his secretary Brandy (the traditional spelling).

 

What I find interesting is that those who do follow religion these days believe in one specific God. However, in the times of the ancient Greeks there were a number of different gods, all with their own personalities and demands. I have never really asked a religious man from today what he thinks of that. After all, the belief in one God is based solely on faith - as has been raised here on a number of occasions there is no proof that a God exists. Yet, surely if we take this viewpoint then the ancient Greeks were equally valid in their worship of many different Gods.

 

A slight anomaly....as todays worshippers would denounce such a position. Or do they?

 

I'd be interested to hear the views on this.

God could be some giant guy in a bunny suit for all that we know. It really does just come down to personal beliefs, and how you feel about the issue. People get offended when they don't agree with what you're saying. That's why, like you said, religion is such a touchy subject.

 

I don't really know much about Greek God's. From what I do know was that there was a social class...Hera and Zeus being married, Apolo being bisexual...in my opinion, and this is my opinion, it probably was just another story a story teller made up...but got blown out of proportion. I mean, Homer made up the Illiad and Odyssey. Why wouldn't someone be able to make up Zeus, Cronos and the such?

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Flashback666;, I never really thought about ancient Greeks, they did alot of

demented things. But as far as I know, this God has out lived them all.

It don't bother me when people don't agree with me. but if this is the way to heaven I would just like for my friends to go there too. So I tell them. but Every body got ther own ideas.

oh, Lazzo; I hope he is not a giant guy in a bunny suit, that sounds kinda scarry.

 

Mortukai, I am not catholic. If you really read my post you would know I am not religious. I don't like religion. and hay, if Charles Manson believes, that is Gods problem not mine. I don't care who he puts in heaven, as long as it is good and I get there.

So Christians have TWO spirits do they? A new "clean" spirit that they get when they believe in God, and an old "unclean" one that they always have. And somehow the new one can co-exist with the old one in the same body. Yes , the sinful one God calls the old man, and it it is possible for man not to sin but there is war in heaven and there are apposing forces that will later be removed.

Believing that Jesus died for your sins and letting him take all the credit for you going to heaven is not ez to do. impossible for some. I know your gonna have some smartass remark, so go on i'm listening.

Also, cults who worship Satan definitely believe in God, because God is their enemy, and unlike Christians, most Satan worshipers are smart enough to "know thy enemy".

and that shows even they know there is a God, they just don't like him. and I think you know there is a God, you just don't understand him...

"and just because your brian isn't able to comprehend infinity, doesn't mean it can't happen"

and just because your brian isn't able to comprehend if there is a power over it, doesn't mean it can't happen ether.

"because the universe is eternal, there can be no place for any creator God/force/anything".

but you don't really understand infinity, so how do you even know if infinity was created? and if it was, that could really mess with your head.

you long for intellectual reciprocation so Study "ROMANS" thats the one for us. I know you are a atheist and all but a little more knowledge won't hurt you..

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You haven't proved a thing though. These are your beliefs, beliefs that cannot be backed up. As the beliefs for anyone who believes in a higher being cannot be backed up...or proven. A nice little paradox, I guess we won't know until we die. If there's nothing, well damn, you were right. I will give you credit. If someone else who believed in a higher power was right...well damn, good for them. You haven't been able to prove (like cold hard evidence) that nothing exists beyond though.

 

I asked this of Maximillian, but apparently the request was beyond him: "What would you consider to constitute proof?" Seriously, you seem to know what isn't proof, so I'm interested in knowing what you think is proof.

 

Yes, I have a fairly good idea what you might argue constitutes proof (I've seen it all before, because this whole "I don't see any proof, only your opinion" sh*t comes up every single time someone can't deal with an argument. Nobody ever says that when they agree with the arguments presented), and yes, this is a trap. So to avoid it, try to come up with something different to what I think you are going to come up with.

 

Also that isn't a paradox. par-a-dox (noun): "An assertion that is essentially self-contradictory, though based on a valid deduction from acceptable premises."

 

 

Now, there are different types of intelligence, I will give you that...but I see you aren't very socially adapt.

 

OMFG I insulted some morons! wow.gif

 

First, I believe the word you are looking for is "adept". Either that or "adapted".

 

Second, I don't give a f*ck about morons. At all. Because they are morons. I don't care if they like me, or if they are gonna have a cry about anything. Why should I? They are morons. I don't need them for friends. I have enough friends, and none of them are morons. If being socially adept means being nice to every idiot I come across, then I'm glad I'm not. What a waste of f*cking time that would be. dozingoff.gif

 

 

The topic said that it showed God does not exist. I see nothing showing God doesn't exist.

That's because you wouldn't know it if it jumped up and punched you in the face. And if one line responses are all you can manage, please, stfu.

 

 

God could be some giant guy in a bunny suit for all that we know. It really does just come down to personal beliefs, and how you feel about the issue. People get offended when they don't agree with what you're saying. That's why, like you said, religion is such a touchy subject.

Pfft. I've found that people only get offended when their beliefs are weak and fragile. People who have strong solid beliefs that they have explored thoroughly tend to never get offended when those beliefs are challenged. This is probably because of two reasons: one, they themselves have explored their beliefs fully and understand all the weak spots that exist, so they have become somewhat detached from their beliefs; and two, they know that any counter-argument that could be brought up against their beliefs is easily accounted for by their own arguments which they have dedicated alot of time to refining. Thus any differing opinions are no longer threats to their own. Thus if you get offended by differing opinions, your opinions are too weak and underdeveloped.

 

 

I am not catholic. If you really read my post you would know I am not religious.

Ok, when you say religion, I guess you are talking very specifically about organized religions. When I talk about religion, I'm talking about a set of beliefs that are commonly shared among many people. You don't have to go to church to be a catholic in my book. You just have to share common beliefs with them. For catholics, these are typically the following beliefs, which distinguish them among all other Christian religions:

 

-A belief in the holy trinity

-A belief in saints (like Mary and junk)

-A belief that all humans are born sinners

-A belief that belief alone is sufficient to be saved

 

The more of these your believe, the more catholic you are in my book.

 

But seriously ctel, you haven't actually engaged with any arguments. You've only dodged them. Here's what I see when I read your last post:

 

Me - But this idea is clearly ludicrous

You - It's God's problem, not mine. I don't care so long as I get to heaven.

Me - A sin-free spirit cannot logically exist in a sinful body, wtf?

You - God calls the sinful spirit the "old man", and now I'ma talk about the apocalypse.

Me - Again pointing out the problems with belief as being sufficient.

You - It's not easy to believe.

Me - Talking about how by your definition, Satan worshippers would get into heaven.

You - See? They know he's there they just don't like him.

 

Notice how not once did you ever actually properly respond to a critique of your position? You merely sidestepped and changed the subject.

 

Being able to understand a higher power above you is simple. Extremely simple. Even the most inbred redneck toothless f*ck can comprehend the concept of a "father-figure" God (and statistically, they are VERY likely to be Christian). I DO understand God. I've had to. My whole family is religious. Very religious. And I have more families than most people because of divorce and re-marriage. And because I am athiest (as opposed to merely agnostic), knowledge about God is very important because it is the entire "enemy" position. "Know thine enemy". Hell, knowledge about God is what drove me to atheism in the first place: because it just sounds like a big pile of sh*t.

 

Also, consider this: the concept of God, at its core, requires a perfect being. Even if we can't fully understand every nuance of every aspect of God, we can understand this core concept. Nothing about him can ever be imperfect. Right? Good. Now, the concept of infinity, at its core, requires that there is no beginning or end. Even if we can't comprehend fully all the implications of infinity (we can, but only in a high-level abstract way), then we can still know with certainty that there can be no beginning nor end to infinity, just as there can be no imperfections in a God.

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Mortukai, where do you see imperfections in God?

Making a provision for an imperfect man, to save him from distrution is not

a imperfections on his part. and I never said Satan worshippers would get into heaven.

I don't know how you came up with that. and its not easy to believe that is why you have a hard time believing it. you even said it "just sounds like a big pile of sh*t".

like you said, we can still know with certainty that there can be no beginning nor end to infinity, so how do you know that God don't exist along with it. or part of it?

and how God runs his creation is God's problem, not mine. If it is not evil, tell me why I should care who he puts in it? at that time all problems should be fixed.

A sin-free spirit cannot logically exist in a sinful body, wtf. who said it can't? you?

Did you ever make a body or a spirit? Acording to the God,

Gods holy spirit can live with you along with your sinful spirit.

"The more of these your believe, the more catholic you are in my book".

Thats your book, call me what you want. I know what I am.

"Also, cults who worship Satan definitely believe in God, because God is their enemy"

you said that Mortukai, I did not.

"knowledge about God is what drove me to atheism in the first place"

Thats because you listened to a lot of church crap for money and you did not

study Romans. but who knows, maybe you did. you got your mind made up.

enjoy life..

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You haven't proved a thing though. These are your beliefs, beliefs that cannot be backed up. As the beliefs for anyone who believes in a higher being cannot be backed up...or proven. A nice little paradox, I guess we won't know until we die. If there's nothing, well damn, you were right. I will give you credit. If someone else who believed in a higher power was right...well damn, good for them. You haven't been able to prove (like cold hard evidence) that nothing exists beyond though.

 

I asked this of Maximillian, but apparently the request was beyond him: "What would you consider to constitute proof?" Seriously, you seem to know what isn't proof, so I'm interested in knowing what you think is proof.

 

Yes, I have a fairly good idea what you might argue constitutes proof (I've seen it all before, because this whole "I don't see any proof, only your opinion" sh*t comes up every single time someone can't deal with an argument. Nobody ever says that when they agree with the arguments presented), and yes, this is a trap. So to avoid it, try to come up with something different to what I think you are going to come up with.

 

Also that isn't a paradox. par-a-dox (noun): "An assertion that is essentially self-contradictory, though based on a valid deduction from acceptable premises."

 

 

Now, there are different types of intelligence, I will give you that...but I see you aren't very socially adapt.

 

OMFG I insulted some morons! wow.gif

 

First, I believe the word you are looking for is "adept". Either that or "adapted".

 

Second, I don't give a f*ck about morons. At all. Because they are morons. I don't care if they like me, or if they are gonna have a cry about anything. Why should I? They are morons. I don't need them for friends. I have enough friends, and none of them are morons. If being socially adept means being nice to every idiot I come across, then I'm glad I'm not. What a waste of f*cking time that would be. dozingoff.gif

I said cold hard evidence. If you read my entire post carefully.

 

Oh, and pointing out my spelling errors just looks silly on your part. A single letter? Are you shamed about not being very social adept Mort? Are you? And your friends...for some reason I see your friends as people who...well I won't insult them becasue I won't bring myself down to your level...then again, if I believed that you had friends it would give me more reason to insult you.

 

About paradox, I probably gave the meaning my own little twist...both Atheists and Christian views cannot be proven, so neither one can be (there's no way Mort). I mean what would you consider proof? Words don't count, because words can be taken in different ways. You're not perfect, so why do you feel as if you're right, and everyone else is wrong?

 

About the proving it...no, it's said because you're speaking of it as a fact. You can't do that, because it's not. That is the point, nothing you say in your belief will be proven, because when you die, well your existence ceases to be, and you're nothing. So what's the point in arguing when it all goes to the gutter in the end? You still haven't proved anything. So why try? Give up.

 

Oh, and pointing out any grammatical errors is a waste. It doesn't support your agruement, so don't talk about setting traps. It confuses me that you say something like that, and right after it you bring up spelling errors. It seem's a bit silly.

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Holy crap. It's like I'm talking into a vacuum. I'm flabbergasted at these responses. Even I, with my extremely low opinion of other people, am astounded at this sh*t. You'd think I'd learn, wouldn't you? Clearly I am a moron for expecting better and more reasoned responses.

 

 

Mortukai, where do you see imperfections in God?

Where the hell did I say that? Oh that's right, I didn't.

 

But now that you mention it, off the top of my head, let's see... he's a VENGEFUL God (wrath is a sin), he's an ANGRY God (his patience clearly has a limit), he's a PROUD God ("thou shalt have no other gods before me"), he's a JEALOUS God (jealousy is also a sin)... and all these by his own admission. If I could be f*cked, I'd hunt through many of my older posts in other threads and on other forums and I'd show you many more. But I couldn't. Be f*cked, that is.

 

Hell f*ck it. I can't be bothered to respond to the rest of your post. Half the time I don't know where the f*ck you are digging up that sh*t from, and the other half is so peripheral it's not worth mentioning.

 

 

I said cold hard evidence.

Oooohh!

 

Proof has to be both cold AND hard!

 

I can't believe I missed that bit! Especially because I DID read your whole post.

 

Jesus lazzo, what the f*ck is "cold hard evidence"? Is that where someone hands you the frozen severed arm of a dead person? If physical "right in front of your eyes and you can touch it with your hands" evidence is the only thing that constitutes proof in your book, then clearly there is no proof that you can think, or that time is a dimension, or that atoms are made of electrons, neutrons, and protons.

 

And then you say that words don't count as proof. Holy sh*t. Amazing. I guess that means you should shut the f*ck up forever then huh? I mean, you can't prove to me that words don't count as proof, unless you use words, thus defeating your whole argument that words don't count as proof. Words = thought. They also are not the only things which can be misinterpreted. Anything can be misinterpreted. Someone might hear a sound and think it is a child screaming in fear. Another might interpret it as a woman shrieking in laughter. Another might hear the brakes on a car squeeling. Another person might be deaf and won't hear it at all. Someone might see a woman hit a man and think "he must have deserved it". Another might think "that's abuse". Another might think "they are only mucking around". Another might think "that dude's a pussy". And another might be blind. So I guess that means that NOTHING can ever be proof for ANYTHING at all EVER?

 

Either that or you don't know your ear from your asshole.

 

What would I consider proof? Logical arguments. I don't trust my senses, because they can be very decieving and I know all too well how the mind can distort perceptions tremendously. Is the sky blue? No. The sky has no colour at all. Any colour we see is merely the way our brain interprets the light wavelengths that hit our retina, and with the sky these wavelengths are only percieved because of the light scattering effect of the atmosphere. The "blue" that we see is actually the sunlight itself, devoid of the other hues which get scattered too much for us to see them. Atoms don't have colour. The sky is not blue.

 

I don't trust my senses, I trust only logical deduction, and sometimes, if there is sufficient support, logical induction. And yes, this means thought, and thus words.

 

 

About the proving it...no, it's said because you're speaking of it as a fact. You can't do that, because it's not. That is the point, nothing you say in your belief will be proven, because when you die, well your existence ceases to be, and you're nothing. So what's the point in arguing when it all goes to the gutter in the end? You still haven't proved anything. So why try? Give up.

This has to be the most incoherent sh*t I've ever read. First, fact is merely popular opinion. Most american people will tell you that it is a fact that God exists. Most middle-eastern people will tell you that Allah is fact. Most people will tell you that it is a fact that the sky is blue. Most people don't know sh*t.

 

But I love your argument: "Nothing can be proven, because one day my existence will cease. "

 

Brilliant. So brilliant, in fact, that it is completely beyond my abilities to understand how you came to this conclusion (nothing can be proven) from this single premise (one day I will cease to exist).

 

So "there's no point in arguing, because one day I'll die. I haven't proven anything, so I should give up."

 

That's awesome. Building on your previous conlusion, you then introduce an unsupported declaration (that I haven't proven anything), and conclude that there is no point in trying to do anything.

 

Wow. I'm convinced! I might as well go kill myself right now, save me the trouble of waiting around in this pointless life never being able to achieve anything worth spit only to have my whole worthless existence annihilated into oblivion when I die.

 

Well, your logic may be nonexistent, and your arguments may look like a 4yr old scribbled them on a napkin with a crayon, but I sure do like your conclusion. That way I can completely avoid ever having to speak or interact with ALL YOU STUPID MOTHERf*ckERS WHO HAVE NO f*ckING CLUE ABOUT ANYTHING BEYOND YOUR OWN ASSHOLE.

 

f*ck this sh*t. I just stopped giving a f*ck about what you morons think. None of you have any capacity for reason. I don't care if this gets me banned, I aint coming back.

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Yes! Ctel and I beat the more intelligent one out of us! Hoorrray! Huzzah! The ignorant ones can take out the enlightened one!

 

BTW, we reason, but you just don't agree with it. Your childlike frustrations came out again. Go back into your room, and now you can tear out the pages of Voltaire and wipe your eyes with them.

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f*ck this sh*t. I just stopped giving a f*ck about what you morons think. None of you have any capacity for reason. I don't care if this gets me banned, I aint coming back.

 

Hurray! There IS a God! And I have been an atheist for all this time.

 

I suggest Mortukai does not get banned though - that is what he clearly wants after his little rant, so I say we keep him unbanned thus allowing him to come back and argue some more. He won't be able to keep away. On a number of occasions he has vowed never to respond to me again, but does continue to do so. I suppose he must have his little ways.

 

And, as Lazzo says, we do have capacity for reason. You just come back and dismiss everything through a combination of poached philosophical terms, theories and nuances.

 

Entertaining - yes. Sign of intellect? Not really.

 

Multiple Gods is still an area which intrigues me though, getting back on topic. Is the singular God who is the centre of today's religion an amalgamation of all these? Or were the Greeks just plain odd? If it is hard proving one God, I would suggest it is equally difficult proving a whole cartload.......

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The topic said that it showed God does not exist. I see nothing showing God doesn't exist.

That's because you wouldn't know it if it jumped up and punched you in the face. And if one line responses are all you can manage, please, stfu.

Touchy Touchy...

 

Oh, and if you really are lraving, then:

 

Na na na na, na na na na, hey hey hey, GOOD BYE!

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A true sign of genius is the ability to refute other people arguments, no matter how simple or illogical, while still maintaining your composure.

 

No matter how intellegent you were in certain respects, Mortukai, you were still an elitist asshole and you wont be missed.

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A true sign of genius is the ability to refute other people arguments, no matter how simple or illogical, while still maintaining your composure.

 

No matter how intellegent you were in certain respects, Mortukai, you were still an elitist asshole and you wont be missed.

I wanted to say something like that, but I felt like he was going to make fun of me for it or prove it wrong in some way. Glad you posted it though, at least it's out there smile.gif

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Multiple Gods is still an area which intrigues me though, getting back on topic. Is the singular God who is the centre of today's religion an amalgamation of all these? Or were the Greeks just plain odd? If it is hard proving one God, I would suggest it is equally difficult proving a whole cartload.......

 

Ancient peoples used gods as means of explaining things. Depending on how you look at it, they either said "a god is this" and "a god is the reason this is". Kind of how one can believe in evolution and God at the same time. One doesn't exclude the other.

 

I've been wanting to try this explanation. You walk into an enclosed room. You see the remnants of burned and charred paper, cardboard, and the room smells like gunpowder. You can invesitage the remains and conclude a firework went off. You'd know that a firework goes off when a source of fire lights the fuse, which lights the explosives, and causes the explosion. What you do not know, is who lit the fuse and how exactly did they do it...

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Alright, well i haven't read much of this argument but i got a question and hopefully it hasn't already been raised. But if you are a believer in some sort of god, then wouldn't the meaning of your life be to blindly obey a set of rules that some people a thousand years ago wrote for you? I mean, is it just me or does that whole concept just make you realize how stupid we are as humanity? I mean, there are motherf*ckers fighting wars, killing millions, and all sorts of bad sh*t that stunts progress of humanity; and it's all based on a bunch of he said she said that happened a thousand or more years ago. So yeah, someone let me know if i'm either on something or i'm onto something.

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Alright, well i haven't read much of this argument but i got a question and hopefully it hasn't already been raised. But if you are a believer in some sort of god, then wouldn't the meaning of your life be to blindly obey a set of rules that some people a thousand years ago wrote for you? I mean, is it just me or does that whole concept just make you realize how stupid we are as humanity? I mean, there are motherf*ckers fighting wars, killing millions, and all sorts of bad sh*t that stunts progress of humanity; and it's all based on a bunch of he said she said that happened a thousand or more years ago. So yeah, someone let me know if i'm either on something or i'm onto something.

I suppose it's your belief on it. A lot of people who follow religions do follow them blindly, taking in literal interpretations of things...which is very scary. The last U.S. election is a good example of the things that came come out of it that aren't so good, but with that what about the many Christian relief aids around the world you know? I guess it is all in how you practice it.

 

We are all blind. Like the clothes you are wearing now, thrift or not, you're just a product. We all are, right down to our shampoo.

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A true sign of genius is the ability to refute other people arguments, no matter how simple or illogical, while still maintaining your composure.

 

No matter how intellegent you were in certain respects, Mortukai, you were still an elitist asshole and you wont be missed. 

 

I have not always "had the same opinion" as morty, but: honestly, he has put up some good debate and thought into this thread. I have not seen very much to refute what he has said here.

 

I think morty would agree, that faith (religion) is something you have FAITH in being true, even though you can not prove it. Even if your a devout christian, you and I both know you never met Jesus in person; however, you may (or may not) have faith in what (at least you think is true) Jesus actualy said and did.

 

No one can prove or disprove any religion, you either have FAITH in that religion or you don't. Just becuase your religious don't get angry at morty... if nothing else, you need some one to play the devil's advocate.

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