[SA] Myriad Islands

[mickarrow]

mmm, not much response so far

 

@ Alexxx: Could you be more specific please.

 

@ aad: seeing your conversion idea makes me think you mean we should use the one we had in vc, wich is basically the vc generic folder?

 

I think it would be a shame to ditch all those nice new trees SA has.

But I just noticed GForce is back, maybe he can clear some stuff up.

[Gforce]

this is also a section of things i've been looking into myself, from what i have worked out atm it seems that most of the VC generic objects we have used in MI are still present in SA although some never got used ingame, with the same object name but with new id numbering and txd files have been renamed in some of the files i've been investigating, most of which can be found in the multiobj.ide, also from what i can figure out, the placement of generic objects in SA was done using the binary ipl files in the img.

 

an example of one object that i cannot find ingame SA is wglasssmash.dff even though the object is still in the img, i got this object ingame months ago and showed screens in the PPT but for some reason the glass is only single sided but it does break, i'm still trying to find a placement entry in the binary ipl files but given the amount of binary files and the limitations of the tool im using ..... progress is slow. this is part of the generic glass pack i made originally for VC which i'm converting to SA.

 

if my memory serves me correctly there is a generic object renumbering tool available somewhere around gtaf for converting the VC generic object ID numbering to SA numbering.

 

i think alexxx is refering to the use of a seperate ide/ipl folder in data for MI specific generic objects like the folder used in the GTI release.

 

on another note i did create a conversion thread for posting links to converted MI files...................feel free to use it

[mickarrow]

You're right about the VC objects being in SA. I came across them too. And from what I could see on Steve M's print-out of the binary ipls you're right too, though I noticed some of the trees were in the regular IPL's.

I did some read up on binary ipl's and noticed a lot of talk about car placement, but not so much about generic objects. I also read that it's not really necessary to put them in binary IPL's.

 

So how do you think it will evolve in the future making of lots. If, let's say, I want to populate a lot with trees and trashcans and so on... do I attach them to the lot and export it as part of the model, or do I add them in the lots' IPL, or in the binary IPL?

 

'Cause what I had in mind was just an overview of what's available for people to use in ther lots

example: pic of object - ID - Model name - Texture name

 

So, when you're for example looking for a certain kind of tree, bush, flower,... you'd have an overview of what's available. Now I don't know if this will be still usefull if we're going with the binary IPL's. Or am I totally wrong here (that's quite possible, I'm trying to get my head around this binary stuff, so far without success)

 

As for the renumbering of VC IDE's, I suppose it's from the VC ID to the SA ID, right? Or the other way around?

 

As I remember correctly, SadMac has shown some new generic objects for Necrosis, so I guess a separate folder with MI-made generics could be usefull.

 

 

On a side note: I didn't convert anything yet. I'm still learning about shadow meshes and such...

[chickenplucker]

Very nice work going on here guys, keep it up:D ! I need to get off my but and relase a lot that I've had for over a year, just waiting to figure out zmod2 and SA modding (blaah).

[BenMillard]

I've finally managed to find enough time amongst everything elseto finish off the 3D draft. Version 2 of the draft can be downloaded from that link and viewed in a 3D map viewer which supports GTAVC. This includes MooMapper, KEd by Delfi as well as MEd by TonyWob.

 

I am making this draft publically available so that any lot owners can check to see if anything they have built or planned to build will be interfeered with. The railway won't be altered to accomodate AleXXX's bridge because creating more island when we've got about two square miles of it completely unused is madness.

 

 

(This post might not make any sense because it's 0625 and I didn't sleep last night.)

[AleXXX]

Empty illnorth - not "madness"? Three times smaller illcom till now is filled on 50%. What bad in one more island? Why not? (my island will be Fully FILLED). You don't like my roads - say what exactly, I'll alter it.

I don't argue - you in GTA-modding longer than I, and not to me decide destiny of a new island for MI. Likely is ridiculous - " Russian guy to nobody known wants to make island for such project ". But you give reason it by emptiness of other islands, and not the fact, that I'll do for Illnorth same, that would make for my island. Where you hurry? We don't make new game - this is amateur TC modification. Want, that Ukrainian bad boys began to earn the large money on sale of "GTA: Myriad Islands" illegal copy?

 

I've edited a little your ways, that they were compatible to the bridge. I have lifted the bridge on +5 (now it is 20,5). The

rails are reduced with 25 down to 13. I hope, so will approach.

3dRailDraft2.1

[Gforce]

here are some update screens showing GTI using new coords.

 

 

the screens don't show that i'm now using 3 img files in my installer, 1 for illnorth 1 for illcom and 1 for GTI, nor do they show i am using 3 ipl files for GTI generic objects ( gti_dynamic.ipl, gti_veg.ipl and gti_streetlamp.ipl).

 

i have all islands moved and ingame all i need to do now is collect all the illcom and illnorth generic objects data from the VC version and move it all, renumber the ID's and put them into seperate generic ipl files.

 

the GTI coord's have been moved X 1800.01 Y 1849.00 from the official GTI release coord's, i originally intended to use 1800 and 1850 but somewhere human error got them slightly wrong and i only found out after i got it all ingame and working.

 

Edit: @chickenplucker : it's good to see you back

[JasonB]

Alex, it's not that we don't appreciate your efforts, it's just that it is unreasonable for us to change the railway to accomodate your bridge. It is also impossible for such height changes to happen in your modified draft, much of the height change will occur on my lot and the railway there goes over dockland, and the railway needs to stay high off the ground, it is not possible to maintain a realistic environment with the track that low. Not to mention the height changes seem very extreme and don't seem realistic at all.

 

Later today I'll export test sections of my docks and bridge to my island to see how well it goes with the train draft. If I think everything is where it is, it should go smoothly

[Gforce]

i feel that all generic objects could be added to the ipl files as per VC modding then transfered to a dedicated generic objects ipl for each island, then possibly at a later date converted to binary ipl files, if we ever get a tool to reconstruct binary ipl files that is.

[aad]

Good work Gforce hopefully i now can convert and replace my lots to their final location. But first i will make an new Devkit for GTI so all members of gti can have their new coordinates of their lots. Thanx already.

 

 

[AleXXX]

Really, good work Gforce.

aad,

Nice building, but ladder texture isn't combined with style of the building.

Is glad to see you again here, chickenplucker.

And soon wait screens of parking place, house, and police departament.

Edited February 9, 2006 by AleXXX

[aad]

Ehrm Ladder texture, do u mean the glass frames for my small fences? if so i would need to find something to replace it with,

[AleXXX]

Explanatory of my message.

I think, it's necessary to create a folder "generic" where to insert IDE/IPL with all generic-objects from VC and SA. If the object repeats it's necessary (for example, VC palm) to remove it(him) and to use the same object from SA.

Besides it, SA supports creation of new IMG-archives - it's possible to use this function and to create separate Generic.img archive.

Also it would be good, if someone will create the list of all generic-objects.

[AleXXX]

Idea 2.

The rails will be pass through a massive bridge design. It will not prevent any LOT, and will looks quite realistic.

Now bridge is displaced on former height (15.5). I've made the preview-version (bad rails texturing and sharp corners).

Download 3dRailDraft2.2

And please, comment.

 

[mickarrow]

I took a look at the draft Cerbera made. (edit: sorry Alexxx, I haven't had the time yet to look at your draft) Overall it's looking good and fits quite niceley. But I got 3 comments(/ideas). I altered a screenshot so it'll be less confusing.

 

 

[1] : I see it goes slightly upwards here before entering Black Mesa. Why not keeping it the same height and make it turn upwards in the tunnel under Black Mesa? That way the track doesn't have to bend like that just to enter the land, but could instead run on the side of the cliffs.

 

[2] : The track enters Illres at ground level here so it crosses the road. No problem with that, but it's really close to a T-section. Are you planning to integrate it into the T-section (in that case, how?) or adjust it so the track doesn't run so close to it?

 

[3] : This is not so much a technical comment, but more a thought about the atmosphere concerning the zonal layout of MI. I know the track must pass around illsub, but does it have to pass so closely by an island that's supposed to be high class/residential. I think it'll kinda spoil the view the mansion-owners would have . (Just a shot, but can't you run it under Illcom instead, make an exit at the southern point of illcom and continue the way it is, passing JB's lot?)

 

While looking at the screenshot, I wondered if there were allready decisions made about the placing of stations?

Edited February 9, 2006 by mickarrow

[mickarrow]

I believe most (if not all) vc generics are in SA. So it's most likely that people, when converting their lots, adjust the IDE number, object name and txd name (if necessary) to what it is in SA.

As for the list, I'm in the middle of making one. I don't know when it'll be ready though, there's quite a lot of generic objects you know.

 

@ Gforce: It's good to hear we might start of using the same manner we had in Vice. If possible, in time, when time is right yada yada...I agree there might be better organizational solutions. But for now, I think VC-wise would be good.

[BenMillard]

I've got a deadline on the school website contract I am working on. It has to go live by the 20th so I might not be very active in the railway planning over the next week or two. I'm not going to be abandoning it, though.

 

 

Mickarrow, since you've very helpfully numbered your questions and given a visual plan I'll start with you. Firstly, the 3D draft differs slightly to the 2D draft in a few details, so you might want to have a fly around it in a map editor if you havn't already.

 

Responses to your questions:-

1. The railway rises along the face of the illURB cliff so that trains won't become hidden as soon as they reach the island. It makes for a nicer view when approaching Black Mesa and allows some fancy support structures to be modelled as the railway goes through cuttings and spans a small bay.
2. The railway will sort of be included in the intersection. Basically, the "stop" line for the northbound traffic will be the southern edge of the railway. If the traffic light objects affect vehicle paths in the same way as they do in GTAVC, this will work fine.
3. In the 3D draft there is quite a bit of space between illSUB and the railway. JB and I intend the architecture of the railway to look fairly nice, so it shouldn't be an eyesore for the illSUB residents.

There are some ideas about the placement of stations but they aren't all decided yet. One station will be on South East illCOM on JasonB's dockland. Another will probably be on North illURB, near where the railway exists from Black Mesa. There will probably be one just to the West of the number 2 in your picture, since that is a nice piece of flat, open land.

 

The illSTA island is just a big station, really, which JasonB has volunteered to make. It is probable that stations will be given to authors like a normal lot would be. Obviously we can't let everyone with a property near the railway to build a station. Only a small number of modellers will get to build a station. It is easy to fit a station into any section of track, so we can decide thier locations at a later date.

 

 

AleXXX, we cannot change the height of the railway; the height cannot be changed while it crosses the sea to get to Necrosis. If you want to make a bridge which cross the railway route you will have to make your bridge fit the railway. Are your changes to the design a joke? You've put a sharply kinked piece of railway in the route.

 

I quite like the idea of Myriad Islands being completed before the end of this century. If people keep adding new islands when most of the official land hasn't even been used, the project will never be completed. What would be the point of that? By using the official land, we can fill it up before we die of old age. New islands could be added after the official ones have been filled up.

 

 

I've been discussing the architecture for the railway route over the sea with JasonB. We are thinking that the Tay Bridge is a bit too old and shabby. The basic construction method of the railway supported on a metal frame (deck) which is then supported by big pillars will work nicely, but it needs a nicer style. The Forth Bridge has high pillars with nicer framework at either end (ignore the massive stuff in the middle).

 

The panorama of the Forth Bridge shows the big towers at each end of the main structure; these are the size we think the MI railway would use. A shot from under the deck shows the sort of framework it uses. Looking down the length of the bridge you can see that even the "small" pillars are pretty big, so this design looks like it could work well. We would use clean concrete instead of old stone, though.

Edited February 12, 2006 by Cerbera

[GT-1]

here are some update screens showing GTI using new coords.

 

Good work, looking forward to a release sometime in the near future.

[AleXXX]

 

AleXXX, we cannot change the height of the railway; the height cannot be changed while it crosses the sea to get to Necrosis. If you want to make a bridge which cross the railway route you will have to make your bridge fit the railway. Are your changes to the design a joke? You've put a sharply kinked piece of railway in the route.

I hadn't enough time, and I made it for 5 minutes, therefore much made crookedly. Without change of yours Railway plan fail to create the realistic bridge (your ways pass practically on a diagonal through the bridge). Certainly it is possible, to create the underwater tunnel, whether but it will be good?

 

I quite like the idea of Myriad Islands being completed before the end of this century. If people keep adding new islands when most of the official land hasn't even been used, the project will never be completed. What would be the point of that? By using the official land, we can fill it up before we die of old age. New islands could be added after the official ones have been filled up.

The century is very much. In the future (I think) will be not how now. Very convenient 3d-modeling (4d? or 5d?) tools will be appear.

Also it isn't necessary to forget, that except for the island I develop illsub_c1_r2 (75-80% done), illcom_c2_r2 (90 % done), and when they'll leave, necessarily I'll take any LOT.

 

In the 3D draft there is quite a bit of space between illSUB and the railway.

Make the station on the island with mansions is silly (without insults).

The good bridge, but make it is difficultly.

 

[Knife]

Maby you should just make an underground tunnel and be a bit different... makes sense really doesn't it?

[BenMillard]

AleXXX, your island is simply not required. There is lots of spare land on illCOM, illRES and illURB which should be used first. There is no point making new islands when the official islands are still empty. Your island is not necessary. It is a waste of time. Time should be spent filling the official land first.

 

If you insist on making this new island, it will not be supported by the railway. The railway will not be changed for unofficial land. If you want to make a bridge to an island in the South, you will have to wait until the railway is built. If you want to make a tunnel to an island in the South, you will have to wait until the railway is built.

 

When the railway is built you can see what space is available. You will not be allowed to alter the railway. The railway will not be altered to fit in with your unofficial island. You have ignored the fact that this is a community project, so the community will ignore you.

 

(EDIT) If you want to talk about your island any more, please make a new topic about it. Your island will not cause the railway to change, so it is irrelevant to this topic about the railway route.

Edited February 11, 2006 by Cerbera

[AleXXX]

 

Your island is not necessary. It is a waste of time.

Whether Jason's or REspawn's island is necessary to us?

Well, the development of the island is stopped (isn't closed). I'll reserve it to the best times. While I shall complete old LOT's and I shall take others. And please - do not select mine illcom_c1_r12!

All the best, AleXXX.

[JasonB]

Just so you don't feel like we are picking on you, I will justify the reasons for mine and Respawns islands:

Respawn started his island when MI was still young, at the time it was only illcom and illsub. At the time most of Myriad has been snatched up, not leaving Respawn much working space. And plus Respawns island is more industrial, whereas illcom is medium commercial for the most part, so having separated sections of industry throughout commercial areas wouldn't make sense.

 

My island is a high density commercial/high-medium density residential area. Whilst illcom shares is also like this, my project started before the north islands were released, in fact they had barely started. illcom likely wouldn't have suited the size of many of my buildings and how I wanted to design the island. If I had reserved a large section of illcom and crammed my designs in there, it would be incongruous with the rest of the island.

 

But now new islands aren't necessary, there is still illcom/illsub to fill up, the northern islands and now GTI as well.

[BenMillard]

I just sent the following message as a PM and e-mail to illspirit, Steve-M and Respawn. I also sent a copy of it to JasonB after we discussed its content over MSN.

 

Hi illspirit, Steve-M, Respawn and JasonB,

 

JasonB and I think we have now got a stable 3D draft together for the Myriad Islands Railway.  I released it in the thread for public viewing.  It includes three DFF files and a TXD (all by illy) with an IDE and IPL (by me) which lets you view the route in a 3D map editor/viewer.

 

It will not work in-game, so you'll need to comment out the IDE and IPL references from the DAT to play in-game.  Instructions are included in the readme.txt file if you need them (which you three probably won't!).

 

We are currently beginning design ideas for railway architecture based on the Tay Bridge and the ends of the Forth Bridge.

 

We think that pillars supporting a metal framework beneath the railway deck is the best option for the sea sections of the railway, but we havn't decided on the flyover sections.  We also don't know what the exact dimensions of the rails will be; we assume they will be identical to GTASA so we can use the standard trains until new trains are made.

 

JB and I would like to ensure that the route is approved by all influential MI contributers before JB begins modelling the Necrosis-illCOM-illRES sections.  I've tried to line it up with Necrosis from the beta Respawn released a while ago; if it doesn't line up with its final position we need to know!  We would like to gather as much input and ideas from other MI contributers as possible in the design of the architecture.

 

If previous URLs havn't worked in your e-mail client, the thread is here:

http://www.gtaforums.com/index.php?showtopic=230358

 

 

regards,

Ben "Cerbera" Millard

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

http://projectcerbera.com

http://sitesurgeon.co.uk

If anyone else has ideas about the architecture of the MI Railway sections, please post screenshots, photos, sketches and so on. Describing your ideas in words alone is not sufficient; we will need to actually see what you mean.

[AleXXX]

Some bridges...

The Ukrainian railway bridge - not so difficult architecture, but looks well.

http://www.pr-ukraine.kiev.ua/preview/80.jpg

Russian Bridges...

http://www.rzd.ru/images/viewimage.html?pi_id=2350

http://www.rzd.ru/images/u_img.html?pi_id=1927&he_id=117

http://www.rzd.ru/images/viewimage.html?pi_id=2360

http://www.rzd.ru/images/viewimage.html?pi_id=3527

Edit: Also don't try to speak with Steve M. He has left GTA-modding (at least, he has written on steve-m.com)

Edited February 12, 2006 by AleXXX

[BenMillard]

None of those bridge styles are suitable for curves. That's why I linked to pictures of th Tay Bridge, so that people can see that the structure needs to curve.

[AleXXX]

Respawn is only making 1 island not 2.

.

In my opinion, REspawn makes two islands (one small as illsub)

[mickarrow]

In your latest 3D draft I see there is indeed quite a bit of space between the track and the south-side of Illsub, but not on the left. I started copying existing turns in PS and came up with this:

 

 

I'm not doubting the architectural quality it will have, just the distance it has from the main land...

 

 

As for some bridge ideas, I'm gonna take the pic I posted before as a reference. I know the lay-out has slightly changed, but it'll give you an idea as to where I'm referring :

 

 

I think if the train near [1] was to go on the side of the cliffs instead of going on and off land, We could have an (imo) beatufull structure like this :

 

http://smokymountain.8k.com/train%20on%20bridge.jpg

 

 

Once the track enters Black Mesa, I'd like to see it make an upside turn within the mountain, so when it leaves the mountain on the left side, the track will be higher off ground, and you'd be able to make something like this:

http://www.monkeyview.net/id/955/france200...TrainBridge.jpg

 

This way, the wide road that connects illurb with illres and wich you cross near Black Mesa, can run underneath the 'viaduct.

Once you go more and more towards Illres, you could steadily lower the above construction.

 

As for an overall solution for track 'above ground', apparently just plain boulders are a very popular solution, like in the link here:

http://www.mexicohorse.com/images/Train%20over%20Bridge.jpg

 

 

That's it for now...

 

 

About the Tai bridge: I think this is a decent solution to overspan wide ranges over sea, but with the pillars not soooo close together. Of course they'd have to be still realistic close enough, but imo, if we go with the same amount of pillars as shown in the real-life pics, we'd have too many of them and it would look unrealistic. I was once explained the 'shrinkwrapped nature' of SA...this should be aimed for here too, I think.

 

[BenMillard]

Wow, good suggestions Mick! The images help a lot with understanding.

 

1. I guess we may as well put more distance between the railway and illSUB. The river there is very wide so boats will still be able to travel around in there. I've adapted the route:

1024 x 768, 48.7kB.

 

There are a couple of slight kinks in it because the route is constructed from straight sections. When the curves actually get modelled by Jason, I'm sure he'll smooth them out so the curves change radius and direction more gracefully.

 

 

2. The height changes you are describing for illURB are already present. The railway can't gain too much height inside the tunnel or it won't be able to get beneath the road which comes down from Black Mesa. Take a closer look at the 3D draft around that area. Here's a screenie of the tunnel exit:

1024 x 768, 111kB.

 

I havn't set the rotation of these items to make the slope smooth because MEd wouldn't do it properly. I don't think it's a big enough problem to try and use one of the older mapper tools, since you can tell what the slope is from the changes in height.

 

 

3. That valley crossing bridge is a very old fashioned style. The route along the East coast of illURB does travel along the side of the cliff, so it will alternate between a cutting through the rock and more modern support structures. I would like it to be on an artificial causeway on the approach to illURB to add a bit of a feature to that big open section of water. It would be constructed like a coastal defence, with sloped sides, so there could even be a unique stunt bonus for fast boats to use it as a jump.

 

 

4. Some sort of a flyover is required for the central illURB section of railway and a brick viaduct could be a nice structure to use. It could have quite decorative brickwork since it is just over the road from the posh housing on the plateau. However, brick textures can look bad due to the size of pixels in normal gameplay. A lightly coloured concrete structure might work better, perhaps with some decorative lines painted on?

 

A set of flyovers and embankments is required for the southern section of illRES. This could be a more industrial style since it is going over the low cost housing close to Necrosis. A metal structure like the New York Subway (the style Portland's railway in GTA3 is based on) might be suitable here.

 

 

5. That overground solution is the general idea for the railway sections which travel over the sea. We will use a more decorative style, though, since big concrete blocks with orange metal panels is pretty ugly!

 

 

6. The pillars on the Tay Bridge are much closer together than we will use for the oversea sections, yes. I think spacing the pillars more like the ends of the Forth Bridge would work better, especially since that will save a lot of polygons and COL faces.

[BenMillard]

I hardly ever write messages in this topic, this will only be my eigth in here. So, erm, here's the ninth.

 

Awesome stuff GForce. What program are you using to create IDE and IPL files?

 

The new route for the Myriad Islands Railway as it goes past illCOM:

1024 x 768, 48.7kB.

 

Looking West from Black Mesa on illURB. The railway runs slightly downhill as it goes over the freeway and continues to ground level on the East coast of illRES:

1024 x 768, 111kB.