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Why do people consider "Deconstruction" a disturbing mission?

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The Coconut Kid
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#31

Posted 2 weeks ago

How anyone can justify murdering a bunch of construction workers then burying a foreman alive (to which it isn't even known if he did anything in the first place) because Kendl got her feelings hurt is beyond me really. I understand that from her perspective, dressing the way she wants and such then proceeding to get called a hooker is insulting but it does not justify literally massacring people doing their day job, the same as any other characters committing acts of domestic terrorism isn't justified with or without context.

You don't actually have to murder a bunch of construction workers, though. Your instructions are to 'scare off the construction firm' and to do this you're told to destroy five portables and kill the foreman. It's completely up to the player to massacre people who are just doing their day job, if you can consider standing around all day and attempting to solicit hookers (or women they presume to be hookers) a day job, as it often is throughout the series. It's brutal on CJ's behalf to bury a foreman alive in order to claim some land, true, but let's not pretend that Niko didn't murder three union officials on a construction site so that Playboy X could 'impress' Yusef Amir, or that Tommy didn't blow up an entire building and its workforce just so Avery Carrington could build condos for rich people.

 

Also, I was actually unaware until now that CJ clears out the land in order to take it over himself. If I'm honest, that actually makes the mission (or at least the idea of it) a lot more appealing to me than when this was just a topic about CJ burying a guy alive. To me, he's just doing what every GTA protagonist past and present has done except for himself, which I find quite favorable. Looking at the "Deconstruction" mission it's basically just a rehash of "Demolition Man" except the motive for the mission is the protagonist's own gain, which I don't find disagreeable.

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Journey_95
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#32

Posted 2 weeks ago Edited by Journey_95, 2 weeks ago.

Did you guys suddenly forget what kind of people the protagonists are in GTA?

The problem is the inconsistent part. CJ acts like a bitch around Catalina for an example, yet somehow buries a foreman because he insulted his sister. He never again does something as ruthless as he did in that mission and never behaves like that.

 

In general his character is supposed to be more "human" than previous protagonists but things like this just make him a messy character who Rockstar didn't write that well.

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Am Shaegar
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#33

Posted 2 weeks ago

MASSACRED a group of workers? That's a wrong term to use. It depends on the player. CJ is simply asked to destroy those portables, not to massacre those workers.

Its very easy to actually complete the first part w/o killing the workers, because most them don't carry guns. Only one or two are a threat and even they can be easily avoided.
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RetroMystic
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#34

Posted 2 weeks ago Edited by RetroMystic, 2 weeks ago.

 

How anyone can justify murdering a bunch of construction workers then burying a foreman alive (to which it isn't even known if he did anything in the first place) because Kendl got her feelings hurt is beyond me really. I understand that from her perspective, dressing the way she wants and such then proceeding to get called a hooker is insulting but it does not justify literally massacring people doing their day job, the same as any other characters committing acts of domestic terrorism isn't justified with or without context.

You don't actually have to murder a bunch of construction workers, though. Your instructions are to 'scare off the construction firm' and to do this you're told to destroy five portables and kill the foreman. It's completely up to the player to massacre people who are just doing their day job, if you can consider standing around all day and attempting to solicit hookers (or women they presume to be hookers) a day job, as it often is throughout the series. It's brutal on CJ's behalf to bury a foreman alive in order to claim some land, true, but let's not pretend that Niko didn't murder three union officials on a construction site so that Playboy X could 'impress' Yusef Amir, or that Tommy didn't blow up an entire building and its workforce just so Avery Carrington could build condos for rich people.

 

Most other missions that have hostiles/NPC's that may become hostiles required to kill as objectives either but out of instinct I'd say 80% of players probably killed all of the construction site workers because they become a pest if you don't. If one wants to say to themself "because the game doesn't explicitly tell you to kill anyone (not including the foreman obviously) so canonically CJ didn't kill anyone on the construction site" I'd say that's completely fair and to a certain extent one who says that is right, but that entire point is debatable by itself, the point at the end of the day is that nothing can really justify burying some poor bloke alive however most people in this thread attest to how OTT that is. My problem is with the people here saying that it isn't inconsistent and CJ was doing it for the greater good.

 

Also, I was actually unaware until now that CJ clears out the land in order to take it over himself. If I'm honest, that actually makes the mission (or at least the idea of it) a lot more appealing to me than when this was just a topic about CJ burying a guy alive. To me, he's just doing what every GTA protagonist past and present has done except for himself, which I find quite favorable. Looking at the "Deconstruction" mission it's basically just a rehash of "Demolition Man" except the motive for the mission is the protagonist's own gain, which I don't find disagreeable.

 

Given that context it makes the mission a little more bearable, but from a writing perspective it's still an odd choice to have CJ burying the foreman instead of just taking out whoever actually owns the land in the first place and letting the foreman, say, do his thing and continue to build the yard. Might not be the best compromise but it's still better than what we got. But most people are debating this from the context of it being for his sister.


Patrik2000_CZ
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#35

Posted 2 weeks ago Edited by Patrik2000_CZ, 2 weeks ago.

 

I don't have any proble​m with this mission..some other protagonist did some similar things too and I'm okay with that.

As anthony wrote this back here, I must say that CJ burying someone in cement isn't as disgusting as The Protagonist in SR2. It doesn't make sense that I'm talking about Saints Row here, but the cutscene where you bury Shogo with Gat is more disgusting, because when you hear someone screaming that his pants are full of sh*t, it isn't that frustrating as when you hear someone scream for mercy to just kill them, not to bury them..... So this mission is still better than the SR2's Rest in Peace.

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RetroMystic
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#36

Posted 2 weeks ago

 

 

I don't have any proble​m with this mission..some other protagonist did some similar things too and I'm okay with that.

 

It doesn't make sense that I'm talking about Saints Row here,

 

No it doesn't so why say it doesn't then proceed to do it anyway?

 

 

but the cutscene where you bury Shogo with Gat is more disgusting, because when you hear someone screaming that his pants are full of sh*t, it isn't that frustrating as when you hear someone scream for mercy to just kill them, not to bury them..... So this mission is still better than the SR2's Rest in Peace.

 

The thing is, both the Boss AND Gat in SR2 are written and portrayed as legitmate psychopaths.

 

Besides, unlike Kendl getting her oh so precious feelings hurt, Gat buries Shogo Akuji due to the fact he ordered the hit on Gat which ended up getting his wife (Aisha) killed, THEN Shogo had the audacity to rock up at her funeral and attempted to assassinate both the Boss and Gat at the same time.

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anthony
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#37

Posted 2 weeks ago Edited by anthony, 2 weeks ago.

No normal person goes out and kills people who have physically/emotionally hurt a family member

Carl is not what you can call "a normal" person, how many people did he killed prior to this mission anyway ?

How was killing a group of construction workers helping Kendl, Cesar or himself?

He took the land.

But CJ isn't portrayed as someone who is quite literally a psychopath

Carl can have feelings for peoples so he is not a psychopath, he is more like a sociopath.
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lil weasel
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#38

Posted 2 weeks ago Edited by lil weasel, 2 weeks ago.

watersgta3 & Journey_95

A reminder, keep to the topic.

And mind the Huge Quote Trains.


Femme Fatale
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#39

Posted 2 weeks ago

I don't think it's disturbing, just weird, random filler. So Kendl was catcalled by some dudes, shouldn't she feel flattered? I know I would. 💅
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Lock N' Stock
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#40

Posted 2 weeks ago Edited by Lock N' Stock, 2 weeks ago.

What makes it so disturbing is just how casual he is about it. Once learning about what happened to Kendl, he just says he'll "teach them some respect", and off to work he goes.

 

At least guys like Claude, Tommy and Trevor know they're genuine psychopaths and don't try to mask it. CJ however acts like he's some sort of moral higher-up yet goes ahead and does sh*t like that out-of-the-blue. Bizarre.

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Am Shaegar
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#41

Posted 2 weeks ago Edited by Am Shaegar, 2 weeks ago.

CJ however acts like he's some sort of moral higher-up

No. Where does CJ intend to show himself as "a morally higher up character"? You surely have noticed somewhere in the game, right? Or you just decided to bring this out of the blue?
CJ is as much of a "criminal" as the rest of the protagonists in the series. I mean, everything about his character has been documented very well for years now. So, it really surprises me to see people still struggling to understand him, or maybe just acting like they DON'T, eh?

Personality:
What makes him different than the rest is that he's considerably >> LESS << violent and occasionally giving his victims a chance to redeem themselves. An example is his failed attempt at convincing Eddie Pulaski to see that he was no more than Tenpenny's pawn. Furthermore, CJ displays genuine remorse for having to kill >> FELLOW << Grove Street friends Ryder and Big Smoke, both of whom he considered close friends. However, CJ still has NO PROBLEM with killing members of other gangs, and willfully slaughters any that get in his way of reclaiming Grove Street Families turf or try to sabotage his businesses, though in return, the gangsters are trying to kill CJ also.


This incident falls into the category of killing those who tried to either hurt his family, or disrespect, esp. Kendl, for whom CJ had already talked about early in the game that he WONT spare any man that tries to disrespect her.
So, the question of him acting out of character, or out of the blue, totally makes no sense, unlike the killings that happen in other games where the motivation or reason is so petty, and low, killing people just for money, even if they are not criminals, or have done no harm to them directly, or indirectly.

CJ is still a criminal by personality, and not as violent as others unless having provoked. So, him being a very morally higher up character sounds so silly for a game like GTA :lol:
Every protagonist is violent by nature, or personality, because they are criminals. Can't believe I have to spell this out. It's only the motivation that drives them to kill people separates them, and CJ is considerably less violent and avoids unnecessary killings unless being forced or provoked.

Even those two or three killings that happen throughout the storyline have a specific purpose behind them that provoked him to anger, or leaving no choice but to help a FELLOW homie, or the mission was forced upon him by Tenpenny for his brothers safety.

These killings may be wrong for others but if I put myself in his position then I can understand why CJ would commit such a crime for various reasons. Though, CJ may be wrong in killing those few innocent people, but not completely out of character given the circumstances.
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Lock N' Stock
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#42

Posted 2 weeks ago Edited by Lock N' Stock, 2 weeks ago.

 

CJ however acts like he's some sort of moral higher-up

No. Where does CJ intend to show himself as "a morally higher up character"? You surely have noticed somewhere in the game, right? Or you just decided to bring this out of the blue?
CJ is as much of a "criminal" as the rest of the protagonists in the series. I mean, everything about his character has been documented very well for years now. So, it really surprises me to see people still struggling to understand him, or maybe just acting like they DON'T, eh? 

I'm just saying that compared to Claude or Tommy, he certainly feels less psychotic and homicidal personality-wise. That's why what he did to those foremen felt a bit random and out-of-character, even if he was simply just looking out for Kendl, 

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Am Shaegar
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#43

Posted 2 weeks ago

You clearly mentioned CJ was A C T I N G like a "morally higher up" character personality wise, which is different from being a psychotic and homicidal personality-wise. I can't comment about them but I find it hard to consider "psychotic and homicidal" and "morally higher up" both mean one and the same, unless some examples are put up.

Evil empire
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#44

Posted 2 weeks ago

I never considered the Deconstruction mission disturbing, I find it entertaining and original, it's all about fictional characters in a fictional story.

 

What I find disturbing is the fact some people can do the same thing IRL and easily remain unpunished through bribes.

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Craig
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#45

Posted 2 weeks ago

I think what makes the analysis for this mission difficult is the optional actions you can take as a player, one that is already accustomed to murdering anybody in their way. We're literally taught to do so despite there being little need for it. If I've learned anything from the speedrunning community, it's that you can actually make decent progress through this game in particular whilst killing fewer people than usual. Take Madd Dogg's Rhymes for example - you're told where the book is, given a knife and you're offered a brief tutorial on stealth kills. Some are mandatory as it would be implausible to make progress without slicing through some of the guards, but there are number of them you can bypass without touching them. Not only that, but the mission can be quicker this way.

 

Let's return to Deconstruction. If you strip away the motive CJ has for visiting the construction site (that being, the harassment of his sister and by proxy, his close friend's partner) then you're given the choice to kill absolutely nobody but the foreman. The foreman leaves the portable toilet, sees a number of pre-fab buildings on fire and decides to wait it out. CJ then takes it upon himself to bury him alive under thick layers of cement and in utterly nauseating conditions - covered in piss and sh*t. What makes this brutal particularly is the manner of the killing. As far as Grand Theft Auto deaths go, this one is particularly cruel regardless of their reasoning. It isn't as if we've taken a life quickly and instantly; we've literally sent a man to his grave to either be crushed to death under the weight of cement, or suffocate with nothing but turds for company. People have long had an aversion to being buried alive or drowned because it's considered an unpleasant means of dying. It isn't particularly quick, and I imagine it's rather painful. It's a far cry from a single bullet to the head.

 

There's factors to consider about CJ's character too, and how he sees violence. I have always thought this mission was a stray away from CJ, who has done less heinous things to people that have done far worse. Compare the foreman's death to Pulaski's or Ryder's, and there's something that doesn't sit right with players. I think it's a combination of how brutal the death is with how CJ is presented as a character that creates an air of unease in how we're encouraged to complete the mission.

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#46

Posted 2 weeks ago

I agree with Craig, but, c'mon, you guys don't see the comic side of this death? :p

Was not to be psychotic but comic, even seeing the 3D Era, which is a comic era of GTA.
Also, the comment of the foreman just before death stands out the comic side of the thing.

You probably didn't notice it around 2004, but now with the HD Era everyone is taking things literally, forgetting that in 3D Era the sounds of punches were cartoon.
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lil weasel
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#47

Posted 2 weeks ago

We are all inured to killing: knifing, shooting, et certera.
The DISTURBING part was suffocating by burying the occupied port-a-potty in concrete with the foreman inside. On the face of it sure it's Black Humor.

But it is still unusually CRUEL.  Why could not Carl just murder him in "normal" ways, as an option.


Craig
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#48

Posted 2 weeks ago

I understand that is intended as comic relief, much like it is that there is an option to shoot the Vietnamese warrior on the boat when he's armed with only a sword. I must admit I never much thought about the foreman's death as a younger player. I'd drive over that patch of cement long after the credits rolled and remember the man I cast in there. I think age and experience adds context. I didn't spend much of my teenage years thinking about drowning.

 

The short of it is, I think people would much rather get shot in the temples that drown in cement with a turd swimming down your throat. If you really sit down and look at the game, it has plenty of dark moments tucked away under the dated graphics.


lil weasel
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#49

Posted 2 weeks ago

I would think that he did not drown, Suffocation would be more likely, with the little bit of air fouled by the stench.

Evil empire
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#50

Posted 2 weeks ago

Although the way CJ assassinates the foreman is horribly cruel since it all takes place in a fictional context it never bothered me at all.

 

What I find more annoying is the fact Rockstar didn't add any set of missions where CJ expands his activities on the construction site.

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watersgta3
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#51

Posted 2 weeks ago Edited by watersgta3, 2 weeks ago.

Although the way CJ assassinates the foreman is horribly cruel since it all takes place in a fictional context it never bothered me at all.

 

What I find more annoying is the fact Rockstar didn't add any set of missions where CJ expands his activities on the construction site.

I never really found the mission disturbing. it was just the reason why CJ does it. I mean doing something this heinous would've been much better had (yes, I know I sound like a broken record at this point, but I feel that I'm not being clear enough to those who keep misunderstanding) the construction workers actually sexually harassed Kendl or tried to rape her. That would make CJ's actions in this mission much more justified. It's pretty lame to suffocate (or even plain kill) a foreman just for saying Kendl looks like a hooker, something that even Sweet told her.

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Am Shaegar
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#52

Posted 2 weeks ago Edited by Am Shaegar, 2 weeks ago.

Why could not Carl just murder him in "normal" ways, as an option.

I think Rockstar simply wanted to introduce those "new" vehicles through this mission, which is why they came up with this unusual and overly exaggerated "mission objective". The fact that this cement truck never featured earlier, up until now, further mconvinces me that this could be a strong reason. Same applies to the bulldozer, the monster truck objective - again doesn't make sense. What is there for CJ to prove by driving a monster truck?
So, like Junior_djjr said, I think we're taking these mission's waaaaayy too seriously, when the intention and purpose of the developers could be completely different, esp., for a 3D era game, when you have plenty of examples of certain mission objectives that doesn't make sense for the protagonists, up until now, that people have now started judging all of this stuff through the lense of "HD era logic" (another SIDE EFFECT of HD Era :p, similar to gameplay vs story - what makes sense for character, and what not, litteraly turned GTA into a massive bore. :/) by associating them with either realism or so-called "inconsistency/out of character" factors.
As Evil empire has explained here, even Tommy did certain tasks as mission objectives that could also be considered as inconsistent or unusual for his character, and it's not limited to how cruel nature of violence is, to consider something lacking sense or meaning.
Though, unlike Tommy, CJ still had good reasons for the most part. It's just presented in a rather exaggerated manner, which isn't so shocking or unusual for the 3D era universe itself.
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Helegad
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#53

Posted 2 weeks ago

I don't think it's disturbing, just weird, random filler. So Kendl was catcalled by some dudes, shouldn't she feel flattered? I know I would.

Considering that 90% of your profile page is GIFs of men being skinned and shot in the head and sh*t like that, I'm pretty sure you're lying.

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piko
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#54

Posted 2 weeks ago

I think he was still pretty upset about the fact Claude gave him the garage instead of a pink slip and was acting out on his anger.

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Helegad
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#55

Posted 2 weeks ago

I think he was still pretty upset about the fact Claude gave him the garage instead of a pink slip and was acting out on his anger.

 

On that note, I've never understood CJ's perspective on this. A four car garage and workshop with fuel bowsers, no neighbours, and huge exposure on a main street in San Fierro is a way better deal than some sh*tty used street racer.

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Am Shaegar
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#56

Posted 2 weeks ago

But, you need people to make it work? He doesn't know anyone in SF.
CJ isn't a real estate genius with great experience of running a business. He's pretty much naive at that point in the story, learning things and getting a proper exposure as presented with new challenges as we progress into the story.
Simple.
This is the reason why there exists a nice conversation between CJ, Kendl and other characters in the mission Wear Flowers in Your Hair, where Kendl also raises the same point with CJ being upset on getting a garage.

Kendl: You know what, Carl, you are a f*cking idiot. Your whole life you've wanted something for nothing. Now you've got something, and you don't know what to do with it. Well, make it good enough. We'll help, right?


Everything is explained.

TheSangheili
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#57

Posted A week ago

The workers died with honor on the battlefield, even though they were pigs. But their leader dishonored himself when he fled the battle and took shelter in a toilet, for such act, no punishment is too great.

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Yo boy
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#58

Posted A week ago

They consider it disturbing because a construction worker said that Kendl looked like a slut, which she did, and CJ destroyed the whole construction site and buried the foreman alive. So..


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#59

Posted A week ago

This mission wasn't as bad as Body Harvest, which is in my opinion is a bit more disturbing.


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#60

Posted A week ago

Yes, Body Harvest was just a bloody way more gory mission almost like when Toni Cipriani ends his relationship with Giovanni Casa.

 

My two cents in this is when CJ is killing those guys he's not thinking about them as humble workers, he's just unleashing his criminal instincts for the reasons already explained before.

And burying the foreman alive maybe ''it was the heat of the mooment...!'' because of winning the territory, and I suppose that when you're an assassin, you kill first and later think about it.

 

By the way, one of my favorite games in my childhood was Hammerin' Harry where you kill construction workers all the time, maybe that had some influence on me about not finding this mission disturbing or something... :beerhat:

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