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How much Satire should the next GTA have?

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Journey_95
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#1

Posted 04 February 2018 - 02:28 AM

So GTA has been about satirizing America since it went 3D but it seems it has recently increased a lot. GTA IV already had more than the 3D Era titles but V seemed to be even more focused on it and it was at the center of the game.

 

How should GTA VI be?


Racecarlock
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#2

Posted 04 February 2018 - 06:12 AM Edited by Racecarlock, 04 February 2018 - 06:16 AM.

The thing is, GTA wants to be "Dramatic", but the problem is that GTA is not a drama. It's a comedy that occasionally has dramatic elements. It's similar to scrubs, in a way.

 

While the 3 protagonists of GTA V were slightly less serious than niko, the problem is that they were still really serious. Or at least, the game wanted me to take them seriously. Trevor and Michael's drama, Franklin's ambitions, the organizations that want to exploit and control out of that.

 

But GTA V doesn't want me to take it's world seriously. So we have this serious as all get out crime drama going on in the same state as billboards that say "E-cola: Deliciously Infectious!", not to mention in the same game that came from the roots of "Blowing stuff up is fun, let's have a right laugh!" and still has those mechanics, and even put special abilities for the protagonists on top of those mechanics.

 

I'm about to mention a massive target around here, so heads up. Say what you will about Saint's Row, but even with the earth being blown to bits in the last one, it never, for one second, wants you tot take it seriously. The second game had some "Dramatic" moments, but it's clear they were lifted from action movies so the game could let you live out your fantasies of being a big star, and 3 and 4 wanted to be more like comic books. So the characters became parodies along with their worlds. Some said that reduced their depth, but I don't agree. Sure, they're silly, that's the point. Saint's Row is a silly, silly series, and that's what makes it great.

 

GTA doesn't want to admit it with it's courting of controversy, but it too is a very silly series. Even GTA V. I mean, for f*ck's sake, after the jewelry store heist it expects me to be concerned about the FIB, but later on in the game we're pretty much shooting hordes of government and PMC agents, and the game wants me to think lester and Dave Norton can silence all questions about it.

 

You know what, though? That would be fine. I've played games with superpowers in them for god's sake, I can suspend my disbelief in service of a good time. But GTA V has all this drama and history between the characters and it wants me to take it so seriously. But I don't play the funny haha shoot the cops game to take it seriously, and furthermore, you have super hackers, special abilities, satirical soft drink companies, satirical companies for everything else, and endless satire on the radio, but I'm supposed to get all serious and teary eyed every time a dramatic rescue or drama between the characters happens? Uh, no. Besides which, they're miserable the whole game. Michael is about as happy in his suburban family life as he is trapped in the desert with a cannibal canadian meth dealer and professional heister. Franklin doesn't even smile when he has a mansion. Trevor only smiles when he's on meth, and otherwise hates everything.

 

So I'm supposed to take this image comics in the 90's "Grim and Gritty" story seriously, and I think the characters were made to be miserable so I'd take the story seriously, but we've still got super hackers and one man armies and police departments so forgetful they make new york in ghostbusters look like it has a photographic memory. Furthermore, it wants me to get invested in a story where the characters never grow beyond being miserable, sarcastic pricks.

 

The point is that for the next game, rockstar should go all in on satire. Forget the drama, I know it appeals to some people, but it just causes tonal whiplash in a series best known for being that game where you find out how long a hood gangster or a miami mafia boss in a hawaiian T-shirt can last against SWAT teams and the military while listening to rock on the radio or a talk radio station where funny men make the jokey jokes. Have the protagonists enjoy themselves for god's sake, this isn't edgar allen poe or the godfather, it's GTA. The punk rock shoot the cops drive dangerously do drugs off a stripper's titties mature rated motherf*cker of the games industry. It's not a drama, it's a fun action movie. You ever watch Hot Fuzz? That's what GTA should be. Hell, you ever play GTA Vice City? That's what GTA should be.

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Journey_95
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#3

Posted 04 February 2018 - 06:44 AM Edited by Journey_95, 04 February 2018 - 07:17 AM.

The thing is, GTA wants to be "Dramatic", but the problem is that GTA is not a drama. It's a comedy that occasionally has dramatic elements. It's similar to scrubs, in a way.

 

While the 3 protagonists of GTA V were slightly less serious than niko, the problem is that they were still really serious. Or at least, the game wanted me to take them seriously. Trevor and Michael's drama, Franklin's ambitions, the organizations that want to exploit and control out of that.

 

But GTA V doesn't want me to take it's world seriously. So we have this serious as all get out crime drama going on in the same state as billboards that say "E-cola: Deliciously Infectious!", not to mention in the same game that came from the roots of "Blowing stuff up is fun, let's have a right laugh!" and still has those mechanics, and even put special abilities for the protagonists on top of those mechanics.

 

I'm about to mention a massive target around here, so heads up. Say what you will about Saint's Row, but even with the earth being blown to bits in the last one, it never, for one second, wants you tot take it seriously. The second game had some "Dramatic" moments, but it's clear they were lifted from action movies so the game could let you live out your fantasies of being a big star, and 3 and 4 wanted to be more like comic books. So the characters became parodies along with their worlds. Some said that reduced their depth, but I don't agree. Sure, they're silly, that's the point. Saint's Row is a silly, silly series, and that's what makes it great.

 

GTA doesn't want to admit it with it's courting of controversy, but it too is a very silly series. Even GTA V. I mean, for f*ck's sake, after the jewelry store heist it expects me to be concerned about the FIB, but later on in the game we're pretty much shooting hordes of government and PMC agents, and the game wants me to think lester and Dave Norton can silence all questions about it.

 

You know what, though? That would be fine. I've played games with superpowers in them for god's sake, I can suspend my disbelief in service of a good time. But GTA V has all this drama and history between the characters and it wants me to take it so seriously. But I don't play the funny haha shoot the cops game to take it seriously, and furthermore, you have super hackers, special abilities, satirical soft drink companies, satirical companies for everything else, and endless satire on the radio, but I'm supposed to get all serious and teary eyed every time a dramatic rescue or drama between the characters happens? Uh, no. Besides which, they're miserable the whole game. Michael is about as happy in his suburban family life as he is trapped in the desert with a cannibal canadian meth dealer and professional heister. Franklin doesn't even smile when he has a mansion. Trevor only smiles when he's on meth, and otherwise hates everything.

 

So I'm supposed to take this image comics in the 90's "Grim and Gritty" story seriously, and I think the characters were made to be miserable so I'd take the story seriously, but we've still got super hackers and one man armies and police departments so forgetful they make new york in ghostbusters look like it has a photographic memory. Furthermore, it wants me to get invested in a story where the characters never grow beyond being miserable, sarcastic pricks.

 

The point is that for the next game, rockstar should go all in on satire. Forget the drama, I know it appeals to some people, but it just causes tonal whiplash in a series best known for being that game where you find out how long a hood gangster or a miami mafia boss in a hawaiian T-shirt can last against SWAT teams and the military while listening to rock on the radio or a talk radio station where funny men make the jokey jokes. Have the protagonists enjoy themselves for god's sake, this isn't edgar allen poe or the godfather, it's GTA. The punk rock shoot the cops drive dangerously do drugs off a stripper's titties mature rated motherf*cker of the games industry. It's not a drama, it's a fun action movie. You ever watch Hot Fuzz? That's what GTA should be. Hell, you ever play GTA Vice City? That's what GTA should be.

So you want this series turn into Saints Row? I disagree with that. It was an average GTA clone and they reinvented it to go full crazy. Its fine for that series because I never cared for the first games & enjoyed something new (instead of a GTA rip off) but I would hate for GTA to go like that.

Even then you have tons of fans still saying the second one was the best because it felt more real and combined serious moments with goofy one's.

 

And even VC and especially SA had serious moments. Like for an example Big smoke's betrayal & death is supposed to be serious,same for Sweet being in the prison. VC also has Sonny as a serious threat and Lance turning on you. Its not all comedy. The moments you are talking about are more free roam and not the story.

They aren't really comparable with Saints Row 3 +4 at all, the latter have zero serious moments. Like you said the earth is blown up and no one gives a sh*t. The villians are complete joke's (unlike Tenpenny, Sonny etc.). 

 

Also regarding killing hundreds of FIB agents etc. thats just how games are. They can't be "realistic" in that regard because then it would be boring as hell. But in every game, even the really serious one's like The Last of Us you kill hundreds of people and the characters don't react. Most protagonists are one man army's. I mean with that logic no game can be serious..

 

I think Rockstar needs a better balance and actually tone down the satire a bit (especially the radio/internet stuff), but I definitely don't want them to drop all the drama (or comedy, the mix is what makes GTA special).  And you are right that it would be better if the characters had more development.


Racecarlock
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#4

Posted 04 February 2018 - 07:54 AM

I didn't say I want it to become Saint's Row, but my opinion is that Vice City had the perfect balance of drama and comedy, whereas IV and V both had too much drama for games that are meant to be parodies.


Journey_95
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#5

Posted 04 February 2018 - 08:18 AM Edited by Journey_95, 04 February 2018 - 08:22 AM.

I didn't say I want it to become Saint's Row, but my opinion is that Vice City had the perfect balance of drama and comedy, whereas IV and V both had too much drama for games that are meant to be parodies.

VC had a good balance for sure but I think the only reason its at least not as dramatic as V (which is already heavily focused on comedy as well, especially compared to IV) is because it was made almost 16 years ago. The cutscenes are rather short, there is barely any dialogue when you are on missions (like when you are driving around with Lance), very limited phone calls etc.

 

If it was made today it would have at least GTA V's level of drama imho. VC is my second favourite GTA btw and I like that it had a protagonist who just enjoyed his work and didn't take sh*t from anyone. Not to mention the taking over the city story was compelling.


Aquamaniac
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#6

Posted 04 February 2018 - 08:44 AM

So GTA has been about satirizing America since it went 3D but it seems it has recently increased a lot. GTA IV already had more than the 3D Era titles but V seemed to be even more focused on it and it was at the center of the game.

 

How should GTA VI be?

 

I don't care about satire, GTA should be about cars and guns with the main focus on cars. I prefer a rather gloomy plot that is relaxed with some humour and the game should take itself not too serious. The Ballad of Gay Tony somehow got it right, Mafia II is an example of a game that had no humour at all, GTA should not be like that though I liked Mafia II.


Typhus
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#7

Posted 04 February 2018 - 08:47 AM

The satire isn't the problem, it's the form it takes. Social commentary is more complex than making dick jokes, or repeating the number 69 over and f*cking over again.

If you want a good example of satire done right, look at Robocop, which does it in a way which is both obviously fantastical and kind of nightmarish in how gaudy it all is. Rockstar has the ability to do this, as we saw in Manhunt and Grand Theft Auto III, but too often their idea of "satire" is more coloured by their immature sense of humour.

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Journey_95
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#8

Posted 09 February 2018 - 02:33 AM Edited by Journey_95, 09 February 2018 - 02:44 AM.

The satire isn't the problem, it's the form it takes. Social commentary is more complex than making dick jokes, or repeating the number 69 over and f*cking over again.

If you want a good example of satire done right, look at Robocop, which does it in a way which is both obviously fantastical and kind of nightmarish in how gaudy it all is. Rockstar has the ability to do this, as we saw in Manhunt and Grand Theft Auto III, but too often their idea of "satire" is more coloured by their immature sense of humour.

I feel like GTA V especially went overboard with the immature type of satire and parody. 

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PWGTA
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#9

Posted 09 February 2018 - 03:55 AM

Rockstar has an immature, unsophisticated sense of humor that caters to children/young teens (which is seriously messed up because of how graphic the subject matter is)

 

GTA V attempts to satirize/poke fun at literally everything. Some say that Rockstar is trying to give social commentary but that doesn't make sense to me because there are no positions taken on modern issues and there are no lessons to be learned from the narrative. There seem to be no likeable or relatable characters. The offensive humor is there for shock value and for the sake of being "edgy"

 

They've made this beautiful open world and filled it with unfunny jokes and unfun limitations. It's really sad to see an amazing feat of engineering like GTA V polluted with "adult" humor and a world more shallow than it could have been

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Lioshenka
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#10

Posted 09 February 2018 - 07:54 PM Edited by Lioshenka, 09 February 2018 - 07:56 PM.

Long post

 

Thank-you. I can't think of anything to add.

 

I really hope that GTA 6 can go back to the single player fun game roots, otherwise I am not buying it. I didn't watch GTA 4 and 5 gameplays before buying them as to not spoil them for me, but for this one I will. I am afraid it will be another boring average game.

 

Saint Row videos on Youtube look amazing, and the talk radio? Best thing since WCTR.

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anthony
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#11

Posted 10 February 2018 - 10:10 AM

Now at this point, I say: none.

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#12

Posted 10 February 2018 - 10:36 AM

Now at this point, I say: none.

 

What? Parts of the entire GTA franchise have been fundamentally based on satire. How can you just whisk it away like that? You can't.


anthony
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#13

Posted 10 February 2018 - 11:16 AM Edited by anthony, 10 February 2018 - 11:26 AM.

I just did; GTA 5 was for me the straw that broke the camel's back.

Wait, do you even think that they would go back to the 3D era and GTA 4 where the satire was just as needed ? I don't think so, imo.

Who cares about the satire at this point in Grand Theft Auto anyway..I don't; give me a story that took reflection and time to be written, something that the writters thought about, and I would be happy.

As I said before, that's still just what I think.

ClaudeSpeed1911
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#14

Posted 10 February 2018 - 02:37 PM


Racecarlock
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#15

Posted 11 February 2018 - 04:11 AM

A GTA game without satire would be like a forza motorsport game without cars. GTA is in kind of a weird position, at least the newer ones are. Too wacky, it's like saint's row, too serious, it's like a mafia game. Back in the day, nothing was like GTA. But now? This is the modern bandwagoning "Did that make money? COPY IT!" games industry, so in addition to Saint's Row and Mafia, there are also series like Watch Dogs, Far Cry, Just Cause, and more. GTA just isn't unique anymore. It was, and there are still unique elements to it, but it's got a ton of competition out there now.

 

That said, again, taking the satire out of GTA is like taking the cheese out of a ham and cheese, you'd still have a sandwich, but you can't very well keep calling it "Ham and cheese". That's because GTA in itself is very, very silly. No, really.

 

I mean, how many real life police chases involve swat teams chasing a car and firing guns out the window? While cops have been shooting more people in real life lately, that doesn't change the fact that in any "Serious" game, they'd send the military in in 30 seconds or the city would literally run out of police. Yes, those are optional, but get real, even if you do play for the story, you do do at least one of those. Even the stories themselves have these blues brothers-esque cinematic and nutty police chases straight out of the movies, it is very silly. Yes, the violence is... violent... but the same is true of a mortal kombat game and I guarantee nobody's comparing those to Shakespeare either. Saint's Row games might outdo it in the silliness area by letting you undergo the whole thing in a hotdog costume from the second game on upwards, but GTA is the first game to do it, and if you look up the origins of the series, you'll find that it was originally a racing game and the cops were a funny glitch that people had more fun with than the actual game, so they made the aggressive cops a main part of the experience and focused more on the mayhem and GTA was born.

 

GTA could be 100% dramatic, easily. But that wouldn't be fun. Even GTA IV had a fat comedy sidekick. GTA V had superpowers (I mean "Special abilities", sorry, TOTALLY different) and a cannibal canadian meth dealer as a character. You could take all of that out. Hell, you could take the free roaming police chases out, the massive arsenal could be gone just like that, and GTA could become a 100% serious, downer affair.

 

But it would no longer be GTA, and I guarantee it would lose a lot of fans, including me. It's not like I need GTA for sandbox free roaming anymore, there are many other series out there just waiting for me to try them. I guess it doesn't need me either, and that's fine. But you guys know you'd miss me around here.


Am Shaegar
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#16

Posted 11 February 2018 - 04:27 AM

GTA is in kind of a weird position, at least the newer ones are. Too wacky, it's like saint's row, too serious, it's like a mafia game.


This is why I consider SA (2004) to be Rockstar's best gift to GTA fans. It has a perfect balance of the two. Its can be serious when it comes to the story, and the characters, yet very much funny, outside of the cutscenes with plenty of humour sprinkled throughout the world that actually makes the world feel so much alive.
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