Quantcast

Jump to content

» «
Photo

Dutch's Gang: Everything We Know Compilation

14 replies to this topic
RedDeadRenegade
  • RedDeadRenegade

    Outlaw

  • Members
  • Joined: 02 Dec 2017
  • United-States

#1

Posted 03 December 2017 - 04:24 AM Edited by RedDeadRenegade, 07 December 2017 - 01:10 AM.

Dutch's Gang 

 

Now that it's widely known we'll be playing alongside Dutch's gang in RDR II, I thought it'd be a good idea to compile all the information we have about it from the first game. I recently replayed the game and wrote down any and all references to Dutch and his gang. I thought this might help us get some speculation going while we wait out this news drought. 

 

1. They've Never Been To New Austin- In RDR, John remarks to Bonnie that he and Dutch's gang never made it down to New Austin, but that they always wanted to, due to it's status as a mostly lawless place. 

 

Bonnie: How well do you know New Austin? 

                                                  

John: don't. We talked about coming down here many times, but we never made it.       

 

Bonnie: Who's "we"? 

 

John: Me and the folks I used to, used to work with.Yeah, New Austin, the last real outlaw country. Where the old ways still hold true. You do a man wrong, he'll shoot you for it. You do a man right... Well, he may still shoot you for it. But at least you have an idea of what's right and what's wrong here.                                                                                                                                                                                                            

2. They Were Active In West Elizabeth- Dutch and his gang were active in West Elizabeth, terrorizing and robbing from it. This makes sense, especially because West Elizabeth looks to be making a return in the new game, as per the leaked map. Newspaper excerpts from RDR make this clear:

 

"Not  since Dutch Van Der Linde's crew was operating up in West Elizabeth has a criminal group caused so much consternation, nor gained so much publicity."                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

3. They Were Also Active In "The West"- â€‹Before they came to New Elizabeth or any of the areas in the new map, they were active out west. This can be easily surmised from a few statements. The Stranger from the I Know You missions tells John:                                                           

                                                                                                                     

"I know you from back out West..."       

 

In the trailer, Arthur also states:                                 

                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                     

"They chased us from the West, they chased us over the mountains..."                                                                                 

 

4. Members- In RDR, we're only made aware of five former members of Dutch's gang, those being John Marston, Bill Williamson, Javier Escuella, Dutch himself, and Abigail Marston. It would make sense if their was other members in the past that just weren't mentioned. The backgrounds we're given on each gang member is as follows: John Marston was saved from a hanging by Dutch and subsequently joined his gang, learning to read under Dutch's tutelage. Bill was a former soldier who joined Dutch's cause. Javier was an early Mexican revolutionary from Nuevo Pariso who joined up with the gang and idolized Dutch. Abigail was a prostitute who rode with the gang and slept with everyone in the gang.                                                                                         

5. Feats- They robbed over 40 banks, killed hundreds of people, robbed trains, and rustled horses. According to John, they stole from rich people and institutions and gave back to the poor, romanticizing themselves as some kind of western Robin Hoods. At one point they even raided a ferry.                                   

 

6. Dissolution- As the years crept on, Dutch slowly went insane, using meaningless violence to mask his pain. This caused his fellow gang members to go insane as well, especially Javier, who was hit the hardest by this turn of events. After a botched robbery in 1906, after John was left for dead, the gang dissolved, and it was thought that Dutch was dead too. 

 

7. Philosophy- The gang saw the encroaching government as just another more powerful gang, with no interest for the common people of the country. They were practically secessionists, who wanted to create a new and different society, which seems to resemble anarcho-communism. Despite all of their efforts, the government continued to expand their control of the population, and in the face of the futility of his cause, began to lash out With less and less discrimination. 

Dutch: Looks like it's me and you, John. You should have stayed at home. Working for the government, John. After all I taught you. I'm ashamed.

Marston: I don't have a choice.

Dutch: There's always a choice! You're just too blind to see.

Marston: They got my family.

Dutch: Your family? Abigail was any man's wife, John. And Jack, he's another whore's son, just like you. You're weak. You always were. You never had the stomach for this.

Marston: For what? You got no idea what you're killin' for.

Dutch: You never could see what I see, John. You were too scared. You'll never get me to surrender! You better kill me, John!

Marston: If that's how it's gotta be.

Dutch: Well come on and get it then. Come closer! I got a surprise for you!

Marston: There's no more surprises. It ends here! So this is it? Your savage utopia, up here in the mountains?

Dutch: You wouldn't understand.

Marston: It's all in your head, Dutch. That's what drove you insane. What have you done? Apart from murder people. What have you changed, Dutch?



Dutch: More than you'll ever know.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

  • Efreet, Duxfever, Race-n-Chase and 6 others like this

Yelda
  • Yelda

    Guilty? Sure ...Thatīs just the way it is

  • Members
  • Joined: 21 Nov 2017
  • Germany

#2

Posted 04 December 2017 - 08:18 AM Edited by Yelda, 04 December 2017 - 12:40 PM.

We could also try to analyze the relationship between the members of the gang. We can read a lot in the rdr wiki ...

Dutch-Member: Seems to have been almost a father-figure to the gang members, especially to young member like John and Abigail
Dutch-John: John followed him unconditionally for a long time till the failed robbery. Despite Dutch leaving him for dead he still holds respect for him.
Dutch-Javier: He seems to have been with Dutch for a long time, knowing he's in Colombia. Maybe he had a higher position within the gang?
John-Bill: Bill seems jealous of the good relationship between Dutch and John ... maybe Dutch has allways favored John.
John-Javier: Javier calls John his "brother" quite often, implying that they were close friends, but maybe only Javier saw it that way ... John says "brother" very cynically

Javier-Bill: Javier helps Bill escape. So they had contact after the gang split up
Abigail-Member: Serviced the gang as a prostitute until she falls in love with John
Jack-Member: Jack was born when his parents rode with Dutch´s gang. He named Dutch and Bill "uncle" and stated they used to tell him stories of their criminal exploits.

 

That's what I heard in the game, read from the wiki or how I interpreted that. maybe others have read something more. I'm curious what we still experience in RDRII :D
 

  • mombo2811, tsycho, zachsterosu and 1 other like this

tsycho
  • tsycho

    Just ignore the bodies.

  • Members
  • Joined: 22 Oct 2016
  • Germany

#3

Posted 04 December 2017 - 12:14 PM

Dutch AND John must have been leaders of the gang somehow... (RDR 1, Bill Williamson to John Marston before he shoots him:"...I'm in charge now! No more Dutch and no more you!")

  • Yelda likes this

Yelda
  • Yelda

    Guilty? Sure ...Thatīs just the way it is

  • Members
  • Joined: 21 Nov 2017
  • Germany

#4

Posted 04 December 2017 - 01:01 PM Edited by Yelda, 04 December 2017 - 01:45 PM.

Dutch AND John must have been leaders of the gang somehow... (RDR 1, Bill Williamson to John Marston before he shoots him:"...I'm in charge now! No more Dutch and no more you!")

Maybe he just had enough to see that John was always preferred, even though he had been riding so much longer with Dutch? Maybe he was already assuming that John would lead the gang after Dutch went slowly insane? But did Bill really think so far? He does not seem very smart to me in the first part, just self-serving, greedy and ruthless ...
That's just what i thought ... it will probably be completly different :colgate: 


 

  • zachsterosu likes this

Hunter S. Compton
  • Hunter S. Compton

    That's the paradox, John. You see?

  • Members
  • Joined: 06 Oct 2017
  • Nicaragua

#5

Posted 04 December 2017 - 02:38 PM

7. Philosophy- The gang saw the encroaching government as just another more powerful gang, with no interest for the common people of the country. They were practically secessionists, who wanted to create a new and different society, which seems to resemble anarcho-communism. Despite all of their efforts, the government continued to expand their control of the population, and in the face of the futility of his cause, began to lash out With less and less discrimination.

Dutch: Looks like it's me and you, John. You should have stayed at home. Working for the government, John. After all I taught you. I'm ashamed.

Marston: I don't have a choice.

Dutch: There's always a choice! You're just too blind to see.

Marston: They got my family.

Dutch: Your family? Abigail was any man's wife, John. And Jack, he's another whore's son, just like you. You're weak. You always were. You never had the stomach for this.

Marston: For what? You got no idea what you're killin' for.

Dutch: You never could see what I see, John. You were too scared. You'll never get me to surrender! You better kill me, John!

Marston: If that's how it's gotta be.

Dutch: Well come on and get it then. Come closer! I got a surprise for you!

Marston: There's no more surprises. It ends here! So this is it? Your savage utopia, up here in the mountains?

Dutch: You wouldn't understand.

Marston: It's all in your head, Dutch. That's what drove you insane. What have you done? Apart from murder people. What have you changed, Dutch?

Dutch: More than you'll ever know.
  • Efreet, Yelda, CowBoyKB and 1 other like this

Hunter S. Compton
  • Hunter S. Compton

    That's the paradox, John. You see?

  • Members
  • Joined: 06 Oct 2017
  • Nicaragua

#6

Posted 05 December 2017 - 04:51 PM

John also repeatedly refers to Dutch as a "good man" and in the mission "The Outlaw's Return" refers to both Dutch and Bill as "good men who went bad." Interesting because most people are only familiar with Bill as an absolute brute of a bastard. Seeing him as something resembling honorable or good would be interesting. In his defense, he probably didn't shoot John to death on purpose, when John approached Fort Mercer.

  • tsycho, zachsterosu and RedDeadRenegade like this

mombo2811
  • mombo2811

    You'll walk... WITH A LIMP!

  • Members
  • Joined: 08 Apr 2016
  • None

#7

Posted 05 December 2017 - 07:38 PM

arthur seems loyal to dutch but i think by the end of the game he will leave the gang

  • zachsterosu likes this

RedDeadRenegade
  • RedDeadRenegade

    Outlaw

  • Members
  • Joined: 02 Dec 2017
  • United-States

#8

Posted 05 December 2017 - 09:27 PM

John also repeatedly refers to Dutch as a "good man" and in the mission "The Outlaw's Return" refers to both Dutch and Bill as "good men who went bad." Interesting because most people are only familiar with Bill as an absolute brute of a bastard. Seeing him as something resembling honorable or good would be interesting. In his defense, he probably didn't shoot John to death on purpose, when John approached Fort Mercer.

 

 

7. Philosophy- The gang saw the encroaching government as just another more powerful gang, with no interest for the common people of the country. They were practically secessionists, who wanted to create a new and different society, which seems to resemble anarcho-communism. Despite all of their efforts, the government continued to expand their control of the population, and in the face of the futility of his cause, began to lash out With less and less discrimination.

Dutch: Looks like it's me and you, John. You should have stayed at home. Working for the government, John. After all I taught you. I'm ashamed.

Marston: I don't have a choice.

Dutch: There's always a choice! You're just too blind to see.

Marston: They got my family.

Dutch: Your family? Abigail was any man's wife, John. And Jack, he's another whore's son, just like you. You're weak. You always were. You never had the stomach for this.

Marston: For what? You got no idea what you're killin' for.

Dutch: You never could see what I see, John. You were too scared. You'll never get me to surrender! You better kill me, John!

Marston: If that's how it's gotta be.

Dutch: Well come on and get it then. Come closer! I got a surprise for you!

Marston: There's no more surprises. It ends here! So this is it? Your savage utopia, up here in the mountains?

Dutch: You wouldn't understand.

Marston: It's all in your head, Dutch. That's what drove you insane. What have you done? Apart from murder people. What have you changed, Dutch?

Dutch: More than you'll ever know.

 

Thank you for both of these, your responses are well thought out and interesting. In the GOTY manual, it says that Bill used to be a soldier, so maybe he suffers from some kind of PTSD? Maybe he felt betrayed by his government and decided to join Dutch's crusade against corrupt "civilization". 

 

Another thing I'd like to say is that I really hope they write Bill, Javier and Dutch three dimensionally. Don't just portray them as assholes or "bad guys" give them some redeeming qualities. Have them act like they really are "brothers" as they constantly say in the first game. If the game makes me care about them, even just a little, then that will make me feel bad about killing them in RDR as John. It will add more depth to it. That's the difference between a good prequel vs a bad prequel, it actually enhances the first game. That's probably the thing I'm most excited about for this game, the chance to gain more insight into Dutch and Co.

  • zachsterosu likes this

Birda13
  • Birda13

    Player Hater

  • Members
  • Joined: 20 Apr 2017
  • Canada

#9

Posted 06 December 2017 - 06:23 PM

Excellent write up. Another thing we should add to this list is the history that Uncle had with Dutchs Gang. Clearly he had a past relationship with John and his family but he also eludes to knowing Bill and Dutch who he considered friends. Cant wait to learn more.
  • zachsterosu likes this

PapasHota
  • PapasHota

    Meet one of the few benefits of your civilization.

  • Members
  • Joined: 17 Oct 2017
  • None

#10

Posted 06 December 2017 - 07:41 PM

Excellent write up. Another thing we should add to this list is the history that Uncle had with Dutchs Gang. Clearly he had a past relationship with John and his family but he also eludes to knowing Bill and Dutch who he considered friends. Cant wait to learn more.

  • In A Continual Feast, Uncle tells John that it was a shame he killed Bill and Dutch, as he and them were friends. To which John argues that they only kept him around as a joke.
  • zachsterosu likes this

zachsterosu
  • zachsterosu

    "My side ain't chosen. My side was given."

  • Members
  • Joined: 23 Sep 2017
  • United-States

#11

Posted 08 December 2017 - 06:53 PM Edited by zachsterosu, 08 December 2017 - 08:24 PM.

I'm re-watching the cutscenes from John's final confrontation with Bill(An Appointed Time), and Javier(The Gates of El Presidido). There's some interesting dialogue that I hadn't remembered.
 
An Appointed Time
  • Bill: "You always was weak-minded!"
  • John: "You're the one who let Dutch drive you insane!"
  • Bill: "Dutch wanted you dead, we all did!"
The Gates of El Presidido(Skipping some non-relevant lines)
  • Javier: "Come on, you're not going to shoot your own brother, are you? We was family."
  • John: "Yeah, we were, then you and Dutch went crazy and family didn't mean so much."
  • John: "What you and Dutch did was wrong. And the way you left me was wrong."
  • Javier: "We thought you was dead, brother. I promise. I'm telling the truth."
  • John: "You left me to die, to save your own skin and now you expect me to care about you?"

I think the raid on the ferry might have been a set-up to get John killed, and it almost sounds like it could've been a straight up-massacre of innocent people, as John seems to have a strong disdain for what his former brothers took part in. Also, I find it interesting that John never mentions Bill when talking about Dutch and Javier going insane, and vice-versa.
  • Efreet, Duxfever, tsycho and 1 other like this

tsycho
  • tsycho

    Just ignore the bodies.

  • Members
  • Joined: 22 Oct 2016
  • Germany

#12

Posted 08 December 2017 - 07:16 PM Edited by tsycho89, 08 December 2017 - 07:17 PM.

I'm re-watching the cutscenes from John's final confrontation with Bill(An Appointed Time), and Javier(The Gates of El Presidido). There's some interesting dialogue that I hadn't remembered.

 

An Appointed Time

  • Bill: "You always was weak-minded!"
  • John: "You're the one who let Dutch drive you insane!"
  • Bill: "Dutch wanted you dead, we all did!"

The Gates of El Presidido(Skipping some non-relevant lines)

  • Javier: "Come on, you're not going to shoot your own brother, are you? We was family."
  • John: "Yeah, we were, then you and Dutch went crazy and family didn't mean so much."
  • John: "What you and Dutch did was wrong. And the way you left me was wrong."
  • Javier: "We thought you was dead, brother. I promise. I'm telling the truth."
  • John: "You left me to die, to save your own skin and now you expect me to care about you?"

I think the raid on the ferry might have been a set-up to get John killed, and it almost sounds like it could've been a straight up-massacre of innocent people, as John seems to have a strong disdain for what his former brothers took part in. Also, I find it interesting that John never mentions Bill when talking about Dutch and Javier going insane, and vice-versa.

We know that Dutch's gang had this Robin Hood philosophy. Maybe rich people were on this ferry and the gang "just" wanted to rob them. But Dutch (and some of his people - influenced by Dutch's philosophy) went crazy because he was annoyed by the decadence of these people. So he deviated from the "we take from the rich and give to the poor" thing and they started a massacre. John didn't like this at all, tried to stop them and a gangmember (maybe Dutch himself) shot him during all this chaos. The others thought (or have benn told), John was shot by an enemy.

 

Just pure speculation...

  • zachsterosu likes this

djb204
  • djb204

    Crackhead

  • Members
  • Joined: 17 Feb 2014
  • Canada

#13

Posted 2 weeks ago

Arthur isnt part of Dutch's gang. Dutch's gang is just a small part of RDR2s story line. Aurther has his own gang and he does some missions with Dutch's gang. This is what we see in the trailer. Dutch's gang is seen for hype in the trailer. He is not a major character.


RedDeadRenegade
  • RedDeadRenegade

    Outlaw

  • Members
  • Joined: 02 Dec 2017
  • United-States

#14

Posted 2 weeks ago

Arthur isnt part of Dutch's gang. Dutch's gang is just a small part of RDR2s story line. Aurther has his own gang and he does some missions with Dutch's gang. This is what we see in the trailer. Dutch's gang is seen for hype in the trailer. He is not a major character.


We have nothing to indicate this. Why even have them in the game then? Weve already seen Arthur, Dutch and Bill robbing a train together, that seems like a f*cking gang to me. If they put Dutch in the trailer and hes only a small part of the game, Id be pretty f*cking annoyed. Thats total bullsh*t
  • Heidi McCourt likes this

Heidi McCourt
  • Heidi McCourt

    Player Hater

  • Members
  • Joined: 17 Dec 2017
  • United-States

#15

Posted 2 weeks ago

Arthur isnt part of Dutch's gang. Dutch's gang is just a small part of RDR2s story line. Aurther has his own gang and he does some missions with Dutch's gang. This is what we see in the trailer. Dutch's gang is seen for hype in the trailer. He is not a major character.

This guy lol, Okay so your still not convinced. R* wouldn't put the whole of dutch's gang on almost every screen shot, trailer, and artwork if they were a small portion of the game. RDR2 is trying to accomplish telling us the story of dutch's gang before the events of RDR1 while mastering Arthur Morgans story. If it was for hype and they were that small I'm sure R* wouldn't have them throughout every image and trailer. R* know that would piss us off if they were that small in the game but hyped up so much so they are obviously going to avoid keeping them at such a small level.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users