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A World Is a Terrible Thing to Waste

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D9fred95
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#31

Posted 2 weeks ago Edited by D9fred95, 2 weeks ago.

@D9fred95
 
Going indoors is a death sentence in GTAV because the interiors, unlike actual buildings, have only one entrance.

The cops are going to follow you inside anyway. Going inside a building won't stop the "telepathic police department". The most useful this strategy could be would be the Assassin's Creed style where the character quickly sprints through the room and jumps out the window somehow losing the pursuers.

@D9fred95
  
How would it take "way way way too many resources" when the entire world--everything but the interiors is already completed? Did you not get a main point of my post--that if resources are not spent creating an entirely new world from scratch, then this would be possible? Look, I understand that you might not agree on the benefits of doing this, but you can't claim that Rockstar doesn't have the resources. They could do this and purchase a small African nation if they so chose.

 
Yeah they could do this. It'd also take many years since unless they want their game to become bland after an hour, they'd need to split the development team up for missions and writing. They'd use up resources making interiors so people can reenact Assassin's Creed chases when being pursued by police rather than just stealing a car. But like what was said, V's map was made by 1,000 people. Either 1,000 people work on interiors and everything else suffers or 500 people work on each and the game is released in the year 2031.

You want more gameplay opportunities and story. Expanding the world lays the framework for providing this. Gameplay opportunities created to take advantage of fully realized, inhabited buildings is, again, my point.

Buildings that the mission is going to take place in yes. There's no point making the ENTIRE city have interiors because some missions take place within interiors.
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ChiroVette
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#32

Posted 2 weeks ago Edited by ChiroVette, 2 weeks ago.

I think we can all agree that there should definitely be more interiors than there actually are in pretty much all GTA games. I also think that even if Rockstar would have simply officially added all the interiors that are already coded into the game in V, and not had to have modders do it for them, that a lot of people would have been very happy.

I do not, for one second, want all interiors to be enterable. I think that it would take up a huge amount of console/pc resources and developer time, that in my opinion, is better spent on many things that would be more than just a novelty.

Look, I remember back in the III and VC days, even SA, being a little put off by so many stores (like in Vice Point Mall and the outdoor mall in Ocean Beach of Vice City) and so few of them being open to enter. But I also understand that the work and system resources it would take for such a minor aesthetic addition would very rapidly reach a point of diminishing returns.


raebbitos
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#33

Posted 2 weeks ago Edited by raebbitos, 2 weeks ago.

I don't understand why whenever someone suggests more interiors,everyone talks about it like it's some f*cking trivial sh*t like window shopping;"Oh, I haven't been here yet!" ,NO!,at least in my eyes interiors should come with a PURPOSE like for example :
Your mission is to kill some guy you could take the obvious approach and shoot him then and there but he's gut bodyguard and he'll run away if you don't manage to do it smoothly or you could go on a nearby building and snipe him from there, this adds replayability and depth to the game, also rewarding the player for exploring the map.

 

Obviously this is the most basic example out of thousands but you see how interiors can aid gameplay.

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Dryspace
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#34

Posted 2 weeks ago

@raebbitos

 

Exactly. To be honest, not everyone has the ability to imagine things they haven't experienced yet. In other words, they imagine the game *as it is now*, and then just imagine that it's just opened-up interiors slapped on top of it. They can't imagine a game they haven't played yet.

 

As I said earlier, many of the things that people can't understand the value of now are going to be gaming reality eventually. I admit that if, say, 15 years ago someone talked about a game with a 400-square-mile world (Just Cause 2), I would have laughed uproariously and wondered what the point of such a ridiculously huge world was, how anyone would have the resources to make it, and how one would even find a way to make use of it.


Am Shaegar
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#35

Posted 2 weeks ago

@Am Shaegar

 

 

"The only viable solution....is to copy, paste, or repeat the interiors..." Yes, this was the only option for entire worlds 10 years ago: copy-pasted buildings, people, textures, rocks. Then technological innovation occurred. You seem to be not taking that into account.

 

It still needs artists, level designers, mission designers, number of original assets (if we don't want the copy/paste approach), testing, etc. I don't know anything about the game designing, but I do know that's not an easy task. Its not about technological innovation. The technology can address the issues of poor performance in game for optimization purposes, because the engine has to be designed to handle such a massive load of interiors. There is only so much the RAM can handle in rendering the whole process. I know the game doesn't load all interiors at once, but still it can affect the performance.

 

It is all about prioritizing the time and money. Better technology does not mean it can automatically create 1000's of original assets, where you enter the requirement, and it'll start generating 1000's interiors immediately. It still requires workforce to model all those interiors, the performance and what not. 

 

 

Instead of spending so much time in making all those interiors, better create a handful of interesting interiors complete in all respects, while focusing on missions, activities, interactions, AI, etc to make the exterior world much more fun and exciting to play.


raebbitos
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#36

Posted 2 weeks ago Edited by raebbitos, 2 weeks ago.

@raebbitos

 

Exactly. To be honest, not everyone has the ability to imagine things they haven't experienced yet. In other words, they imagine the game *as it is now*, and then just imagine that it's just opened-up interiors slapped on top of it. They can't imagine a game they haven't played yet.

 

As I said earlier, many of the things that people can't understand the value of now are going to be gaming reality eventually. I admit that if, say, 15 years ago someone talked about a game with a 400-square-mile world (Just Cause 2), I would have laughed uproariously and wondered what the point of such a ridiculously huge world was, how anyone would have the resources to make it, and how one would even find a way to make use of it.

Of course this will be a standard later down the line but why I think people are kinda shuting down your suggestion is that you didn't explain what those interiors would help with,For example Skyrim;pretty much every building in that game is enterable but in there you can meet different people who'll give you quests or provide interesting dialogue they're not just enterable for the sake of being enterable,if you could explain how this would work in a GTA game it'd be much appreciated!


Dryspace
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#37

Posted 2 weeks ago Edited by Dryspace, 2 weeks ago.

@raebbitos

 

I will try to elaborate more, but for the record, I don't think I'm being shut down--not yet anyway, lol--it just appears that people who dislike something tend to respond, whereas those who like something tend to simply mark it as 'liked'. The record so far:

 

AGAINST

 

1. D95fred95

2. CGFforLife

3. ChiroVette

4. universetwisters

5. AmShaegar

 

FOR

 

1. D T

2. Raebbitos

3. Official General

4. Lock N' Stock

5. Cutter De Blanc

 

Also, let me clear up something: "Enters Everything You Ever Saw" is a pun on the Reyes "Renders Everything You Ever Saw" renderer that Pixar uses. I'm afraid perhaps some people assumed I meant that I expected a single player to literally enter every building on the map.

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gonnaenodaethat
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#38

Posted 2 weeks ago

No thanks, I want to explore the world rather than stuck in a building

 

Then again in reality you sir are stuck in a building playing a game pretending to be outside....

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maundy
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#39

Posted 2 weeks ago

If you want map size and plausible realism.....  FarCry 4. You're a guerrilla group against a low tech military living in the hills. Even the plot, based on the future of your people's culture either being restored or replaced to save society is entirely realistic. 


ChiroVette
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#40

Posted 2 weeks ago

 

No thanks, I want to explore the world rather than stuck in a building

 
Then again in reality you sir are stuck in a building playing a game pretending to be outside....

 


While that applies to all of us, lol I nonetheless enjoy ironic humor. :lol: :lol:

 

 

Dryspace, where did you get the idea I was against more interiors? I am only against wasting developer, not to mention console/PC resources on making every single building in every corner of the world open for entering by the player. But I definitely think more open interiors are a valid thing to ask for.

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raebbitos
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#41

Posted 2 weeks ago Edited by raebbitos, 2 weeks ago.


 

I'm afraid perhaps some people assumed I meant that I expected a single player to literally enter every building on the map

 

yes,you were a little hyperbolic in your post,and that gave people the wrong impression; also people aren't against interiors per se ,but how you presented your idea made it seem as though you wanted every building to be accesible for no other reason than " It's possible ".


D9fred95
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#42

Posted 2 weeks ago

Dryspace, where did you get the idea I was against more interiors? I am only against wasting developer, not to mention console/PC resources on making every single building in every corner of the world open for entering by the player. But I definitely think more open interiors are a valid thing to ask for.

 

Pretty much this. I'm all up for more interiors, the more the merrier. I'm just against every single building, no matter how mundane, having one.


Dryspace
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#43

Posted 2 weeks ago

I'm really confused on this one: How do you know an interior is going to be mundane until you actually enter it? I get the impression I'm not really getting my idea across. Anything could be inside of, or be happening inside of, any given building. You don't know until you walk--or sneak--inside of that house, or mansion, or trailer, or workshop, or telemarketing office, or mill.

 

Just as in reality, a ratty trailer could have a collection of gems worth $40K inside...or just 40 piles of cat sh*t. You might sneak into a mansion hoping for an easy score on some jewels or electronics, and end up walking in on a snuff film. You check out an abandoned warehouse and overhear a gang making plans for a heist. And 6 out of 7 times you may enter a place to find nothing more than you expected to find--no big deal. Most of the out-of-the-ordinary things you come across would tie into other things, some starting missions of their own.

 

As I said, I don't mean to be negative, but I really think some people are just imagining slapping crappy opened-up interiors onto the game we have now. Yeah, that would be pointless. I'm talking about what could be done--using the already-created San Andreas map--to make a new game so that the work already done on the amazingly detailed world isn't put to waste.


CGFforLife
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#44

Posted A week ago

Lol, my name is on your list

 

I'll explain, and (hopefully) clear everything

 

Having all building accessible might sounds great, but it's easier said than done. It's a challenge for the developer to make all interior accessible, different, and detailed. I mean, if they make interior for maze bank tower for example, it takes efforts to make every floor detailed and different, and it's only one of thousand building still left. And beside, people will only enjoy it after a few day and will probably complain: If R* didn't focus in making all building accessible, then the map would be much bigger than we have now. Because you know, opinion always change 

 

They should add more interior to the game, and only if it was necessary. But no! Every building shouldn't have interior


Dryspace
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#45

Posted A week ago

If only a few handsful of the thousands of structures in the world are accessible, how are you going to know which ones they are? Are you willing to get shut down by 20 fake doors just in hopes of lucking across the 1 out of every 20 that you can actually enter?

 

There are only really two ways to deal with this: The first is what we have now: only specific businesses or types of businesses can be entered. But in my opinion that is boring. And obviously it wouldn't work for residences.

 

The other is to have every accessible structure labeled on the map. I'm sure there are those who wouldn't mind this at all, but this is not at all what I want. It ruins the mystery and potential for exploration. And no, it can't be solved by simply allowing the mapping to be disabled, as one then runs into the same kind of problem one has in Skyrim when quest markers are removed.

 

Again, although I don't agree that resources are lacking when the world is already completed, and interiors are the only things that need to be done, I understand the concern that people have on that issue--but I am positive that, whether or not one thinks "Every building shouldn't have [an] interior", it is only a matter of time before every building in a game has an interior. It will happen eventually!


ChiroVette
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#46

Posted A week ago

If only a few handsful of the thousands of structures in the world are accessible, how are you going to know which ones they are? Are you willing to get shut down by 20 fake doors just in hopes of lucking across the 1 out of every 20 that you can actually enter?


That's what the Intrawebs are for. Let the post-release-retail-beta-testers spend a few hours walking into every wall in the game that looks like a door, and post the results for us normal players!

Isn't that what always happens anyway? When booting up a brand new GTA game, who the hell knows what buildings can be entered and which cannot? I know I certainly don't.
 

There are only really two ways to deal with this: The first is what we have now: only specific businesses or types of businesses can be entered. But in my opinion that is boring. And obviously it wouldn't work for residences.

I think that coupled with increasing the number of structures with accessible interiors, this is clearly the best way to handle this.
 

The other is to have every accessible structure labeled on the map.


While this is admittedly cumbersome, it is similar to the PC mod for V, called Open All Interiors. When you install this mod, you get a little icon on the map, both the minimap and the pause map, for every structure that you can enter. This is also a possible solution.
 

I'm sure there are those who wouldn't mind this at all, but this is not at all what I want. It ruins the mystery and potential for exploration. And no, it can't be solved by simply allowing the mapping to be disabled, as one then runs into the same kind of problem one has in Skyrim when quest markers are removed.
 
Again, although I don't agree that resources are lacking when the world is already completed, and interiors are the only things that need to be done, I understand the concern that people have on that issue--but I am positive that, whether or not one thinks "Every building shouldn't have [an] interior", it is only a matter of time before every building in a game has an interior. It will happen eventually!


I don't know if I agree with this at all. I really don't see the rational behind devs spending time and resources creating an accessible interior for every, single building on a map that is as vast as your garden variety GTA map. Not only are you talking about a lot of time and resources, even if most interiors are cut and pastes, but then the idea of rubber-stamping interior after interior after interior onto a map that large would get even more boring.

What's the point of entering one of a thousand houses, if there are only a small number of different interiors all cut and pasted over and over again, ad nauseam, into the homes? That sounds incredibly boring to me!

I find that with Open All Interiors installed on my PC version of V, there are more then enough interiors to add immersion and to offer players the ability to roleplay, as Official General suggested.


Official General
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#47

Posted A week ago Edited by Official General, A week ago.

I've spoken on this issue several times and it's one of the staple reasons for my criticisms of V. So I will keep it short and simple.

No I do not agree that every interior should accessible in V or any GTA game for that matter, that would be way too much time, effort and resources that would put other important areas of game at great risk of being comprised or even outright neglected. There should be a fine balance.

What I will say is that a GTA game should have a significant amount of interiors relative to its size and they must be of a good variety. Restaurants, fast-food joints, cafes, various stores, bars, nightclubs, banks, police/fire stations, hospitals, stadiums, arenas, major public buildings, - basically places that are essentially where anyone living in a big city is very likely to visit at some point in a year. Just enough to make the city feel more alive and breathing in the interactive and immersive sense.

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ChiroVette
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#48

Posted A week ago

I've spoken on this issue several times and it's one of the staple reasons for my criticisms of V. So I will keep it short and simple.

No I do not agree that every interiorshould accessible in V or any GTA game for that matter, that would be way too much time, effort and resources that would put other important areas of game at great risk of being comprised of outright neglected. There should be a fine balance.

What I will say is that a GTA game should have a significant amount of interiors relative to its size and they must be of a good variety. Restaurants, fast-food joints, cafes, bars, nightclubs, banks, police/fire stations, hospitals, stadiums, arenas, major public buildings, - basically places that are essentially where anyone living in a big city is very likely to visit at some point in a year. Just enough to make the city feel more alive and breathing in the interactive and immersive sense.

 

 

Exactly.

 

Interiors seem to me to be a very immersive quality for many gamers, particularly those who often want a break from the chaos and action so they can rolepay. But even for everyone else, more interiors, such as an amount similar to the Open All Interiors mod would add a lot of life to a city. In my initial comments in this thread, I hadn't even considered malls, police stations, hospitals and stadiums, as well as other public buildings. I was thinking more in terms of houses and generic buildings.

 

But the North Point Mall added so much to Vice City, and not just for the Hidden Packages and for the Vercetti mission Shakedown. It is a cool place to hang out in. Actually, I thought it odd, in a cool sort of way, that VCS seemed to make more use of the North Point Mall than VC did. That crazy BMX checkpoint mission comes to mind lol.

 

In any event, I cannot, for the life of me, imagine what the motivation would be for devs to spend a lot of resources on being so fastidious as to open up access to every single building in a huge game. And as a player, I don't get the appeal. I am trying to picture what that would even look like in a game, and the amount of regurgitated interiors, basically cut and pasted in hundreds of buildings, would kill the allure for me.

 

And of course one thing that hasn't been even mentioned is, precisely how would such a diminishing-returns-undertaking enhance the game for most players? I just don't see the cost to benefit ratio of this.

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Official General
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#49

Posted A week ago

 

I've spoken on this issue several times and it's one of the staple reasons for my criticisms of V. So I will keep it short and simple.

No I do not agree that every interiorshould accessible in V or any GTA game for that matter, that would be way too much time, effort and resources that would put other important areas of game at great risk of being comprised of outright neglected. There should be a fine balance.

What I will say is that a GTA game should have a significant amount of interiors relative to its size and they must be of a good variety. Restaurants, fast-food joints, cafes, bars, nightclubs, banks, police/fire stations, hospitals, stadiums, arenas, major public buildings, - basically places that are essentially where anyone living in a big city is very likely to visit at some point in a year. Just enough to make the city feel more alive and breathing in the interactive and immersive sense.

 

 

Exactly.

 

Interiors seem to me to be a very immersive quality for many gamers, particularly those who often want a break from the chaos and action so they can rolepay. But even for everyone else, more interiors, such as an amount similar to the Open All Interiors mod would add a lot of life to a city. In my initial comments in this thread, I hadn't even considered malls, police stations, hospitals and stadiums, as well as other public buildings. I was thinking more in terms of houses and generic buildings.

 

But the North Point Mall added so much to Vice City, and not just for the Hidden Packages and for the Vercetti mission Shakedown. It is a cool place to hang out in. Actually, I thought it odd, in a cool sort of way, that VCS seemed to make more use of the North Point Mall than VC did. That crazy BMX checkpoint mission comes to mind lol.

 

In any event, I cannot, for the life of me, imagine what the motivation would be for devs to spend a lot of resources on being so fastidious as to open up access to every single building in a huge game. And as a player, I don't get the appeal. I am trying to picture what that would even look like in a game, and the amount of regurgitated interiors, basically cut and pasted in hundreds of buildings, would kill the allure for me.

 

And of course one thing that hasn't been even mentioned is, precisely how would such a diminishing-returns-undertaking enhance the game for most players? I just don't see the cost to benefit ratio of this.

 

 

That Open All Interiors mod is one of the best and essential mods for V - the amount of the interiors that mod added, plus the ones V had by default already, is the perfect number and variety of interiors to have. 

 

I'm telling you now, if LS had V already had what the OAI mod has, it would have been liked a lot more. 


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#50

Posted A week ago

I don't know why they can't put out a patch to open all the interiors that are already there. This is one area where the V critics do have a legitimate point.


Dryspace
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#51

Posted A week ago Edited by Dryspace, A week ago.

@ChiroVette

 

All of the questions you pose regarding motivation, resources, appeal, and game enhancement regarding interiors were just as applicable to the subject of making every one of thousands of structures in a game world *unique* back when open-world games consisted of hundreds of copy-pasted assets. "What would be the point?" "That would be a waste of resources!" "How would it enhance the game?"

 

The thing is, the fact that every structure in GTAV is unique adds immensely to the realism, atmosphere, and immersion, though technically it doesn't do anything for gameplay. Interiors (and I've made it clear more than once I do NOT want "regurgitated" "cut and pasted' interiors) would not only increase realism, atmosphere, and immersion--it would also increase gameplay opportunities, for which I've given a few humble examples in previous posts.


ChiroVette
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#52

Posted A week ago Edited by ChiroVette, A week ago.

I don't know why they can't put out a patch to open all the interiors that are already there. This is one area where the V critics do have a legitimate point.


Totally agree.
 

@ChiroVette
 
All of the questions you pose regarding motivation, resources, appeal, and game enhancement regarding interiors was just as applicable to the subject of making every one of thousands of structures in a game world *unique* back when open-world games consisted of hundreds of copy-pasted assets. "What would be the point?" "That would be a waste of resources!" "How would it enhanced the game?"
 
The thing is, the fact that every structure in GTAV is unique adds immensely to the realism, atmosphere, and immersion, though technically it doesn't do anything for gameplay. Interiors (and I've made it clear more than once I do NOT want "regurgitated" "cut and pasted' interiors) would not only increase realism, atmosphere, and immersion--it would also increase gameplay opportunities, for which I've given a few humble examples in previous posts.


We're going to have to agree to disagree then. Because I cannot, for the life of me, imagine how or why devs would spend an inordinate amount of time on developing a discreet and unique interior for every one of the thousands of structures in a GTA game's huge map. Talk about a resource and time sinkhole!

I would much rather all that time was spent on gameplay, story, and adding awesome features.

I see the value of more interiors, as Official General and woggleman suggest. But to create interiors for every solitary building? No way. Huge waste of time in my book.


ViceOfLiberty
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#53

Posted A week ago

I just want more practical interiors.

Dryspace
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#54

Posted A week ago

@ChiroVette

 

Just to be clear: When you say you disagree, do you just disagree regarding GTAV, or do you disagree that sooner or later there will be no such thing in open-world games as fake buildings?


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#55

Posted A week ago

@ChiroVette
 
Just to be clear: When you say you disagree, do you just disagree regarding GTAV, or do you disagree that sooner or later there will be no such thing in open-world games as fake buildings?


I don't want to say NEVER ever. Maybe there will be a way in the future to do it without using absurd amounts of human and system resources, and it may happen, I have no idea.




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