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A World Is a Terrible Thing to Waste

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Dryspace
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#1

Posted 30 September 2017 - 10:39 PM

I just completed the GTAV story, but have not tried going online yet.

 

The thing that impresses me the most about GTAV is the phenomenal level of variety and detail--overall realism--in the game world. There are several recent games that I have not yet played, but in my experience no game comes even close to GTAV's combination of world size and world realism. It is incredibly difficult to find an architectural asset that is used more than once.

 

I couldn't help but thinking about how much gameplay opportunity there was within such a realistic environment. And although I would love a new environment as much as anyone, it occurred to me that it is not even necessary to construct an entirely new world for a new game. Now please, hear me out, because I am the last person to defend laziness in any way.

 

First, understand that there is always a limit to what is possible at a given time (and within a given time)--hardware-imposed limits and financial/human resource-imposed limits. Let me propose an alternative to a new world:

 

What if all of Rockstar's resources were devoted to taking GTAV's world and making each and every interior accessible. Yes, I mean each and every interior of every building. Every store. Every floor of every skyscraper. Every last mansion and trailer. "Enters Everything You Ever Saw". I would really rather have this than a new world with minimally or partially accessible interiors.

 

The resources that would have been devoted to making an entirely new world from scratch would go to modeling the interiors with the same attention to detail that went into the exterior. To creating thousands of unique assets with which to populate the interiors. And although I consider that to be the greatest improvement because of what it would do for gameplay opportunities, that is by no means all.

 

There are plenty of open areas with which to add new structures and features of interest, but beside this, new areas can of course be added, either adjacent to San Andreas or accessible via air travel.

 

The world as a whole would receive a significant graphical improvement. Where necessary, polygon counts would be increased, and texture quality would be increased. General engine improvements would result in even more realistic lighting. Suffice to say it would be the same place, but it would be noticeably more realistic, which I think most of us can agree would be saying something.

 

Let's not forget physical realism. There is no reason that the world can not become more interactive, with the ability to pick up, push, throw, dent, break, mow over, scatter about, and utterly obliterate the free and fixed objects of the world. After all, violence is more fun when it leaves a mark, right?

 

In short, I think the creation of San Andreas was a marvelous feat, and I think that, even as it stands now, there are a wealth of gameplay opportunities for such a painstakingly fleshed-out world. I don't mean just within GTA, but entirely different genres such as first-person shooters. I'm not kidding when I say that such a world could be leased out in the same way that land is leased in reality for people to create games within (not that that would happen).

 

GTAV's San Andreas is astonishing, and I think the work that went into it should be built upon and augmented in order to offer the greatest gameplay opportunities possible.

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D9fred95
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#2

Posted 30 September 2017 - 11:06 PM

Each and every building having an interior? You got a console/PC strong enough to run that much stuff without slowdown?
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Dryspace
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#3

Posted 01 October 2017 - 12:34 AM

@D9fred95

 

For one, GTAV was originally coded and optimized for 360/PS3. Changes were made for the One/PS4 release, but the engine was still the same. An engine that is coded and optimized for One/PS4 will be even more efficient at rendering.

 

Secondly, interiors will be almost entirely invisible while outside, so the actual increase in simultaneously rendered assets would be small.

 

At any rate, you seem to be under the impression that the hypothetical GTA6 would not be any more advanced than GTAV. You don't really believe that, do you? My point was putting the advancement into improving an already amazingly impressive world instead of starting over from scratch.


CGFforLife
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#4

Posted 01 October 2017 - 12:36 AM

No thanks, I want to explore the world rather than stuck in a building

And beside, please take it to whine and complain thread rather than making pointless thread everytime

Dryspace
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#5

Posted 01 October 2017 - 12:39 AM

@CGFforLife

 

Exploring interiors isn't exploring the world? I'm afraid I don't understand.

 

Your second sentence is just...I don't even know.... This is my first post. Did I post in the wrong area?

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CGFforLife
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#6

Posted 01 October 2017 - 12:46 AM

Exploring interiors isn't exploring the world? I'm afraid I don't understand.
 
Your second sentence is just...I don't even know.... This is my first post. Did I post in the wrong area?

Well I mean is exploring the outer world (dunno how to describe it properly), I don't think it necessarily need to shrunk the map size just for interior

While I understand that you were new here, I don't think you have to make another complaining topic when we already have a dedicated topic for it

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#7

Posted 01 October 2017 - 12:55 AM Edited by Queen Elizabeth II, 01 October 2017 - 12:55 AM.

Sure, GTA V is a cool game. It also has many flaws. What's more to say?


Dryspace
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#8

Posted 01 October 2017 - 01:05 AM

@CGFforLife

 

I don't know how you can think this is a complaint post. The entire point of my post was to let everyone know about an idea I have that I thought was interesting.


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#9

Posted 01 October 2017 - 01:13 AM

@CGFforLife
 
I don't know how you can think this is a complaint post. The entire point of my post was to let everyone know about an idea I have that I thought was interesting.

I though you were complaining, sorry though. But it's not a good idea, atleast for me

ChiroVette
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#10

Posted 01 October 2017 - 01:16 AM

Each and every building having an interior? You got a console/PC strong enough to run that much stuff without slowdown?

 

Yeah this is a very true point. I, myself, hadn't even considered this from the standpoint of console/PC power.

 

 

No thanks, I want to explore the world rather than stuck in a building
 

 

LMAO!! Its funny, because you and I are on the same page in SO MANY ways about GTA games. I have never, and I mean EVER, cared about interiors.

 

But let me present you with an alternative point of view to ours. For whatever reason, GTA fans for well over a decade. have been clamoring for more interiors to explore, with greater detail, and greater variety. This has been a staple of fan desire for long enough that I think Rockstar should try, at least try, to give the fans what they want, even if player like you and I don't give a rat's ass about interiors.

 

What makes this discussion even more damning for Rockstar is that the interiors that most V fans want are already programmed into the game! Have you ever seen the PC mod "Open All Interiors?"

 

It is a wet dream for people who love interiors, because there is a huge number of them, and they are, from what I have explored on my game, quite nice. It is definitely a black mark on Rockstar that they couldn't be bothered to add them to the SP game, and modders had to, in effect, do their job for them. My only point is that I am not the kind of gamer who demands only the things ONLY that I desire in a game. And if interiors make people happy, there should be more.

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Dryspace
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#11

Posted 01 October 2017 - 01:24 AM

@ChiroVette

 

I did not know about that mod. I will check it out.

 

Also, I'm not sure if you read all of my post, but I didn't demand anything. I was making a suggestion as to what I thought would be a good use of development resources.


CGFforLife
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#12

Posted 01 October 2017 - 01:54 AM

 

No thanks, I want to explore the world rather than stuck in a building

 

LMAO!! Its funny, because you and I are on the same page in SO MANY ways about GTA games. I have never, and I mean EVER, cared about interiors.

But let me present you with an alternative point of view to ours. For whatever reason, GTA fans for well over a decade. have been clamoring for more interiors to explore, with greater detail, and greater variety. This has been a staple of fan desire for long enough that I think Rockstar should try, at least try, to give the fans what they want, even if player like you and I don't give a rat's ass about interiors.

I agree though, but since people opinion always change, I hope there's no critize toward Next GTA for having focusing on interior


ChiroVette
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#13

Posted 01 October 2017 - 02:04 AM

I agree, CG.

 

@ChiroVette

 

I did not know about that mod. I will check it out.

 

Also, I'm not sure if you read all of my post, but I didn't demand anything. I was making a suggestion as to what I thought would be a good use of development resources.

 

No, I know you weren't. My comment was more directed at CG.

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D9fred95
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#14

Posted 01 October 2017 - 02:32 AM

@D9fred95

 

For one, GTAV was originally coded and optimized for 360/PS3. Changes were made for the One/PS4 release, but the engine was still the same. An engine that is coded and optimized for One/PS4 will be even more efficient at rendering.

 

Secondly, interiors will be almost entirely invisible while outside, so the actual increase in simultaneously rendered assets would be small.

 

At any rate, you seem to be under the impression that the hypothetical GTA6 would not be any more advanced than GTAV. You don't really believe that, do you? My point was putting the advancement into improving an already amazingly impressive world instead of starting over from scratch.

But we're talking "Every building with every floor" having an interior. I mean, this isn't four or five buildings we are talking here. There's hundreds of buildings, some have more than 20 floors. Downtown would probably be the worst. Not to mention, what's going to happen to side activities? R* would have to dedicate 100% of their work base on this. If they did this with their current style, it's gonna be years before they'd finish fully. So they'd need to divert resources for something that'd be cool for a few days tops.


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#15

Posted 01 October 2017 - 07:02 AM

Hmm... Even though I really like the idea of "Visit everything", I'd rather see this balanced. For me, it would be great to have a huge map, with parts of interiors here and there. We had an example with GTA IV: parts of an hotel, buildings, a complete museum, nightclubs, restaurants etc, than what you are telling here. I don't think today's technology can run this yet.

 

Afterward, we could have an interactive world like you say, but again, only with things such as a low wall etc. Otherwise, in my opinion, it would be a mess. You'll try to escape from cops but you'll drive against the crane you just overturned in the middle of the road.


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#16

Posted 01 October 2017 - 01:10 PM

Why would I want to explore every single interior? Why waste disc space on a random interior in a random house that I may or may not ever have a purpose to go into?
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Dryspace
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#17

Posted 01 October 2017 - 08:08 PM

@Neickup

 

Or you'll leave the cops behind that crane you just overturned in the middle of the road!

 

 

@universetwisters

 

I'm not sure you thought that through before you posted. According to your logic, GTAV's map should only have consisted of the locations one is required to visit for the story, with invisible walls preventing you from going anywhere else. Did you go to every single location in San Andreas? I know I didn't, and I know virtually no one did.

 

That's the point. *I* went to this location--*you* didn't. You went to that location--I didn't. That guy visited these places--and so did I. Those guys visited those places--only one of which I visited, etc., etc. One person playing the game won't experience the entire world, but 10 million people *will* experience the entire world--collectively.

 

It doesn't matter if *you* don't need to see what's available to steal in this particular house, or *you* don't want to rappel down to this particular floor of a skycraper and cut through the glass....another person might.

 

My entire point is gameplay opportunities--I'm not talking about adding interiors and that's it. I'm talking about adding interiors and also gameplay to along with them.

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universetwisters
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#18

Posted 02 October 2017 - 01:57 AM

I'm not talking about adding interiors and that's it. I'm talking about adding interiors and also gameplay to along with them[


 

What if all of Rockstar's resources were devoted to taking GTAV's world and making each and every interior accessible

 

JlHRHR5.png

 

So do you want every useless building to have an interior or not?

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#19

Posted 02 October 2017 - 02:37 AM

@universetwisters

 

Perhaps you can explain to me what the fundamental difference between interior and exterior is? If I don't want invisible walls preventing me from going somewhere outside, why would I want visible walls preventing me from going somewhere inside?


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#20

Posted 02 October 2017 - 03:33 AM

That still doesn't answer my question as to whether you actually want every building enterable or not.


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#21

Posted 02 October 2017 - 04:26 AM

@universetwisters

 

My original post answers that question.

 

If only *some* homes and businesses have interiors, people will get frustrated, and will not even try to enter buildings because they are tired of getting all the way up to one only to find it's a facade. Or worse, expecting to be able to cut through this third-rate fortune teller's shop to escape from the cops only to find a fake door.

 

If you know all buildings are real buildings, you don't have this problem. You might not want to go to this one or that one, but you know that you *can*, and you won't be wasting your time when you do want to.


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#22

Posted 02 October 2017 - 05:14 AM Edited by D9fred95, 02 October 2017 - 05:27 AM.

@universetwisters

 

My original post answers that question.

 

If only *some* homes and businesses have interiors, people will get frustrated, and will not even try to enter buildings because they are tired of getting all the way up to one only to find it's a facade. Or worse, expecting to be able to cut through this third-rate fortune teller's shop to escape from the cops only to find a fake door.

 

If you know all buildings are real buildings, you don't have this problem. You might not want to go to this one or that one, but you know that you *can*, and you won't be wasting your time when you do want to.

A fortune tellers shop is more interesting than some nondescript apartment building. I can accept an interesting shop having an interior, but some dudes house or an unmarked building?

 

Honestly, I cannot fathom the concept that someone would get frustrated enough with escaping the cops by going indoors that the answer is to make literally every building enterable. As if using a Pay "n" Spray wasn't a good enough way to lose police attention. Also, going indoors with a wanted level is a death sentence in V.

 

At what point has there ever been a game made where all buildings were 100% "real" buildings? The closest I can think of are Bethesda games but those reuse a f*ckton of assets and the inside rarely matches the outside. R* crafts their buildings from scratch and the interiors would need to match. It will take way way way too many resources and too much time for such a feat. 

 

I'd rather the development resources be directed to activities the player can do, the story and maybe worldbuilding. Interiors are great and I'd welcome more since I felt V was lacking in the amount of them, but I put my foot down on dedicating resources on giving ALL buildings interiors. There are priorities when making a game and making sure each and every building has an interior shouldn't be one of them (unless it's like Minecraft or something but that's purely up to the player).

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#23

Posted 02 October 2017 - 05:25 AM

If only *some* homes and businesses have interiors, people will get frustrated, and will not even try to enter buildings because they are tired of getting all the way up to one only to find it's a facade.


So why would anyone even make an attempt to enter each and every building here?

 

Chicago-suburbs-from-the-air-scorpions-a

Again, it's just a big waste of disc space to make unique interiors for each and every building that maybe 5% of people are going to enter.


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#24

Posted 02 October 2017 - 05:42 AM

@D9fred95

 

Going indoors is a death sentence in GTAV because the interiors, unlike actual buildings, have only one entrance.

 

How would it take "way way way too many resources" when the entire world--everything but the interiors is already completed? Did you not get a main point of my post--that if resources are not spent creating an entirely new world from scratch, then this would be possible? Look, I understand that you might not agree on the benefits of doing this, but you can't claim that Rockstar doesn't have the resources. They could do this and purchase a small African nation if they so chose.

 

You want more gameplay opportunities and story. Expanding the world lays the framework for providing this. Gameplay opportunities created to take advantage of fully realized, inhabited buildings is, again, my point.

 

@universetwisters

 

With due respect, you are arguing against points I haven't made. Of course a single player wouldn't enter every building. 5% of players would enter any one particular building. Almost 100% of players would, collectively, enter all buildings. Please see Post #17.

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#25

Posted 02 October 2017 - 07:51 AM

So what's the difference between going to one house and going to an identical house next door? Video games aren't a collective like a farm in the former USSR where everything is shared. It's just a waste of disc space to give every building an interior in case 5% of people want to poke around it. 


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#26

Posted 02 October 2017 - 07:54 AM

If only *some* homes and businesses have interiors, people will get frustrated, and will not even try to enter buildings because they are tired of getting all the way up to one only to find it's a facade. 

 

where did you get that impression from?

This "making each and every interior accessible" discussion is a decade old debate that I have seen for many open world games in the past, and the answer, in short, is NO.

No need to make each and every interior accessible for the two most obvious reasons - 1. Its time consuming for the developers, and 2. It takes a lot of disk space. The only viable solution to remedy (to some extent) both is to copy, paste, or repeat the interiors, as seen in The Godfather Game, and of course, 3D GTA's, and plent of other examples.

 

Additionally, you will also need to make them more interactive, and usable to the extent possible by add some purpose from the gameplay standpoint.

It's an insane amount of work when you take into account the massive size of the map.

 

Rockstar: More than 1,000 people made GTA V

 

Yet, the map still lacks the kind of interactions, and unique interiors, cult classics like GTA SA offered in comparison, which took, at least, 2 years to make that tiny map as well.

 

I don't think I have even spend more than 2 hours with the interiors out of my total time of over 5000 hours in playing GTA SA. Seriously, No point in making each and every interiors accessible.

Just make a handful of beautifully designed interiors that serve an important purpose in normal gameplay (like, side missions, activities, etc) with tons of interactions in them, and available even after the story missions.


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#27

Posted 02 October 2017 - 10:39 AM

I agree. Rockstar prattles on about creating a "living breathing world" but the illusion quickly dies when you realize the cars are driving around in circles because there's nowhere to f*cking go.

JpQHzvc.jpg

Look at this abomination.
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#28

Posted 02 October 2017 - 01:59 PM

@Am Shaegar

 

It's not an impression, it's an issue that has existed for 20 years--jokes have been made about it. You try to open a door and get nothing but a "door handle rattle" sound, or worse a "door" is just a flat painted-picture of a door. It's a particularly frustrating bait-and-switch.

 

"The only viable solution....is to copy, paste, or repeat the interiors..." Yes, this was the only option for entire worlds 10 years ago: copy-pasted buildings, people, textures, rocks. Then technological innovation occurred. You seem to be not taking that into account.

 

"It's an insane amount of work..." Actually, it's not, really. But even if I agree with that, you and me both would have thought 5 years ago that GTAV's San Andreas would have taken an insane amount of work and been impossible. I freely admit that.

 

At any rate, what I am talking about will be a gaming reality eventually, and when that time comes you will have forgotten that you called it pointless and silly. :)


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#29

Posted 02 October 2017 - 02:06 PM

@universetwisters

 

"So what's the difference between going to one house and going to an identical house next door?"

 

I admit I didn't know that you hadn't played GTAV yet, but when you do, you will be amazed that houses aren't identical. Literally every single house is unique, just as in reality.

 

And as in reality, every interior would be unique, with unique furniture, unique people/families, unique domestic problems, unique crazy secret goings-on that you desperately wish you could un-see, unique things to steal, etc.


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#30

Posted 02 October 2017 - 03:37 PM

I have played GTA 5. A lot of mirror house parks are identical, as are some in Ranchero, Davis, etc.

Still doesn't explain why we need every one of them to be accessible and unique from the inside. Want to play "the lives of others"? Go play The Sims. Doing trivial stuff like that for GTA is just a waste of time and space, regardless of whether or not 0.5% of people want it. They should suck it up, buttercup!




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