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Mapping Off-the-Map Turf and Zone Glitches

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Bender ุ
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#31

Posted 3 weeks ago

Zones don't color for somereason on any save, i've checked  it after i was done with each test (Enabling/Disabling Gang Wars Colors) nothing seems to color.


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#32

Posted 3 weeks ago Edited by OrionSR, 3 weeks ago.

Grovel Test for PS2v1 - Grovel?

 

I moved the Queens save disk to the beach at Angel Pine, a changed CJ's start disk to match. I swapped in a set of aircraft for Caddies but could never get the runway object to spawn properly. The Nevada needs a bit of a turn or it's liable to run into the sea, but ended up being a good choice for a long flight into a featureless sky and sea. It looks like you might be able to see the horizon if you fly a tad under the cloud later. I just let the Nevada fly itself and nudged it a little to reduce the roller-coaster effect. 

 

I also cleaned out a few more gang stats. You'll want to enable gang areas on the map, and verify with the Mission Hill Ballas turf.

 

Blips are in rainbow order from red to violet. Roy G Biv. It looks like the violet has the top layer for display on the map so aim for that and keep everything else in-line or behind. My results look good. After the death, and enabling the gang areas, the game map displayed several green grove turfs. On repeated attempts, when I glitched Grove and Ballas into the save zone then the colors were a dull gray and hard to pick out on the map. Toggling brown thunder was enough to repaint the map.

 

It shouldn't take long to put together a check of the "term" sectors in the southern sea now that I've got a makeshift airbase in Angel Pine. 

 

Angel Test for PS2v1

 

This is the same save as the Grove Test that's been renamed and had the blips moved. It's got the same RoyGBiv color pattern but these aren't in as straight of a line as the string lengths vary. It's a much shorter trip though. It only took about 3 to 4 minutes in a Shamal.

 

The Grove test took nearly 10 minutes, but that was in a coasting Nevada - pleasant flight though, and reduced the aggravation of no horizon in view. I ran my color tests with a Hunter on the Grove Test save. It wasn't too tough to test the first few sectors but I wasn't about to complete the full course in it.

 

Angel Pine - my results, for reference. The last 7 zones have their terminators glitched so their zone names should not display properly. The final test is to verify this glitch in game. I'll look up the zone list again after dinner.

 

Zone Map

  • STAR1, Starfish Casino, off main strip
  • RING, The Clowns Pocket, single zone
  • LDOC2, Ocean Docks, northeast near Willowfield
  • LIND3, Willowfield, just north of LDOC2
  • LIND4A, Willowfield, gully and Loco mod shop
  • WWE1, Whitewood Estates, thin strip near freeway
  • LDT8, Downtown Los Santos, top of tower

I have completed my observations of the PS2 zones with glitched terminators on their gxt keys. I was expecting these zones to display a county name but instead they displayed nothing at all. But the zone does appear active in that as CJ switches between zones the game can detect the name is different. It's a subtle effect, but usually the game doesn't display the zone name if CJ switches between two zones with the same name. I think the county name bug is associated with glitched Z1 coordinates and I just couldn't tell the difference before.


VercettiKiller
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#33

Posted 2 weeks ago

Great topic Orion, but why on the fly off the map glitch doesn't toggle any turfs on Las Venturas? I tried multiple times (No corruption glitch has occured), with no success. I read the zone glitches ps2, and no LV territory is glitched, only RING (Clown´s pocket) is listed but on the corruption zone if I understand it.


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#34

Posted 2 weeks ago

Yeah, it looks like you are right. There are no LV zones included on the turf glitch list because when they organized the zones they put most of the LV zones last. PC has a nice mix of cities because the PC glitch works from the bottom of the list where it seems like they were throwing in the finishing touches for zones around the map, so they're mixed up a bit more.

 

RING, WWE1, and most of STAR1, all LV zones, can suffer from zone info corruption on PS2. If you aren't looking for trouble, like you are willing to mess up your save to confirm the predicted glitches, then I can't see any good reasons for PS2 players to risk corrupting their zone info. This structure is relatively easy to repair on PC as SnP can detect and repair any problems. But most PS2 players can't manage their saves, so best to keep out of the southern seas.

 

However, there are some good northern country zones that border LV just to the west. IIRC, some of these zones will spawn gang peds. This can give you a wedge to drive other gangs into the area because if you can get a war started then you can lead the targets around to other zones. And... again, my gang war skills are a bit rusty. Um... If you can start a war in a remote zone with high density gangs that spawn reliably, then you can lead them to zones with one density, no ped paths and no gang members spawning in the rural zone so you can finally start a war.

 

Gang war glitches are often layers of tricks upon tricks; it can be difficult to keep track of all of the specifics and implications.


ric-013
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#35

Posted 2 weeks ago

Hey orionSR ;)

I still have most my notes... Maybe i can provide some missing info's.
😉
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OrionSR
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#36

Posted 2 weeks ago Edited by OrionSR, 2 weeks ago.

Oh, hey! Good to see you again ric. I was hoping that this topic would catch your attention. I can't think of anyone better qualified to verify my work on PS2. Um... I think I'll just let you get to work without much of an introduction and see what you can come up with. About the only info I could add in light of your unique skills is that we could probably manipulate blips with cheat codes. Let me know if you want more details but save editing offers a lot more control.

 

Did you ever get the 010 Editor? If not, I'd suggest that you give the trial version a whirl. I've been working on a multi-platform template that can parse most data in most SA save files. It's just getting to the point where I'm ready to publish a working example. So if you can still manipulate your PS2 saves, you can give me valuable feedback on the template and play with a cool new tool while exploring the new turf glitch map.

 

San Andreas Save File Companion

 

I was just getting ready to post a link to the SAS template on GitHub when I saw your post, so look for updates soon.

 

Okay, a hint: Confirmation is key right now, on PC and PS2. But more importantly, we need good strategies, especially for targeting remote glitches without editing in blips. PC players can use coordinate tools to help them learn to navigate, but obtaining coordinates from PS2 is usually a tricky proposition. 


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#37

Posted 2 weeks ago

nice man good job 


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#38

Posted 2 weeks ago Edited by RationalPsycho, 2 weeks ago.

Okay, a hint: Confirmation is key right now, on PC and PS2. But more importantly, we need good strategies, especially for targeting remote glitches without editing in blips. PC players can use coordinate tools to help them learn to navigate, but obtaining coordinates from PS2 is usually a tricky proposition. 

 

Although I currently lack technical information big time, therefore have next to nothing to contribute here, I think I might be able to help you with this one. If you want to target and reach certain areas, all you need is a timer and something that can fly fast and consistently. The Hydra is the vehicle that can reach the max speed limit normally set by the game (270 km/h I think?) the fastest, and once it does, you'll know you'll be flying at a steady speed. From there, all you have to do is run a test with blips and keep track of the exact time it takes the Hydra to reach the desired area, then you can update the informative posts for regular users with instructions like; fly from A set point of reference towards B for N seconds.

 

Keep in mind that the weather - rain in particular - can often mess you up by changing your rotation. Also, helicopters are hard to fly at their top speed consistently, take a while to reach it, and are generally slower than planes. Other aircraft capable of reaching the max speed limit are the Shamal, and even the AT-400 (haven't confirmed the Andromada though), although they take more time to do so, especially the latter, so they're not really recommended.


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#39

Posted 2 weeks ago

Oh, hey! Good to see you again ric. I was hoping that this topic would catch your attention. I can't think of anyone better qualified to verify my work on PS2. Um... I think I'll just let you get to work without much of an introduction and see what you can come up with. About the only info I could add in light of your unique skills is that we could probably manipulate blips with cheat codes. Let me know if you want more details but save editing offers a lot more control.
 
Did you ever get the 010 Editor? If not, I'd suggest that you give the trial version a whirl. I've been working on a multi-platform template that can parse most data in most SA save files. It's just getting to the point where I'm ready to publish a working example. So if you can still manipulate your PS2 saves, you can give me valuable feedback on the template and play with a cool new tool while exploring the new turf glitch map.
 
San Andreas Save File Companion
 
I was just getting ready to post a link to the SAS template on GitHub when I saw your post, so look for updates soon.
 
Okay, a hint: Confirmation is key right now, on PC and PS2. But more importantly, we need good strategies, especially for targeting remote glitches without editing in blips. PC players can use coordinate tools to help them learn to navigate, but obtaining coordinates from PS2 is usually a tricky proposition.


I meant that i still have old info's and test results that might be usefull.
But i could try to find a ps2, i have eveything else id need... So maybe.
I never got that hex editor,for i kinda quited everything shortly after android zone editor/ gang-war thing.

Ill read every info's posted so far,
I shall see if i can add something.

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#40

Posted 2 weeks ago

Oh uh... Yeah. Sorry. I don't know why I should expect that you'd still be set up to play. It took me the longest time to dig up enough working pieces. Old USB thumb drives are the tricky part. It looks like small drives are available new in bulk packages. I'm not sure if they work for AR-Max though. I've got one working PS2 and another that can't read disks anymore. I might be able to clean it up one more time but if I'm going to do that then I'd prefer to try to mod it with a hard disk and whatnot so it's available for easy file transfers. And, get that LaunchELF stuff working with network transfers - it looks awesome but I don't think I can install it with my current setup.

 

Old notes were very helpful. I've been scouring our old topics looking for anything that could nail down a glitch to a location but found no consistency. Your notes in particular, did not match my expectations. They're quoted on the first page for reference. This conflict is one reason I've been stressing the need for confirmation. I trust your observations as much as my own so it's really hard to just throw out what doesn't fit my expectations. Only you, because they're your observations, can resolve this last outstanding conflict between observations and theory. You may not need to play if you can remember what you did well enough to plot the glitches on the map.

 

But if you can play, nothing would increase my confidence in the PS2 map more than replication of results on your system. Bender's test saves have been very helpful (and I'd still love to see the test results saves from the newer western saves, please). But if your system produces the same results then I no longer have any reason to suspect anything other than - The glitch is identical on PS2 and PC except the zone information and zone population structures are switched in position so it works in reverse. PS2 needs a different lookup table for the map, otherwise the Sheets are the same.

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ric-013
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#41

Posted A week ago Edited by ric-013, A week ago.

Alright OrionSR , i read everything... Again, im totaly impressed by the lenght and details of your documentations.

That said, while reading all this i had the feeling something similar was done before... memory is fuzzy, but i kinda remember a topic detailing the differences between ps2v1 and ps2v2, among various things and info's someone explained why the territory glitch didnt work anymore and how zone un-shader command was partially fixed.
i tryed to track back that topic without any luck... i mention it just in case you would remember such topic too.

You said you read our old topics...lol, Sorry i butchered mine badly back when i was trying to fit everything in 1st post and to remove useless codes.

I asked a co-worker his ps2, but he dont know if it still works....ill have it monday, cross fingers.

Edit :
I forgot to mention the quoted test results on 1st page, i looked in my personal notes and found very same results along this note " need re-test"... Now, did i wanted to confirm results or else, i dont know, for theres no results for a 2nd test. I known this aint helping at all, but thats what i got.
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VercettiKiller
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#42

Posted A week ago Edited by VercettiKiller, A week ago.

Yeah, it looks like you are right. There are no LV zones included on the turf glitch list because when they organized the zones they put most of the LV zones last. PC has a nice mix of cities because the PC glitch works from the bottom of the list where it seems like they were throwing in the finishing touches for zones around the map, so they're mixed up a bit more.

 

RING, WWE1, and most of STAR1, all LV zones, can suffer from zone info corruption on PS2. If you aren't looking for trouble, like you are willing to mess up your save to confirm the predicted glitches, then I can't see any good reasons for PS2 players to risk corrupting their zone info. This structure is relatively easy to repair on PC as SnP can detect and repair any problems. But most PS2 players can't manage their saves, so best to keep out of the southern seas.

 

However, there are some good northern country zones that border LV just to the west. IIRC, some of these zones will spawn gang peds. This can give you a wedge to drive other gangs into the area because if you can get a war started then you can lead the targets around to other zones. And... again, my gang war skills are a bit rusty. Um... If you can start a war in a remote zone with high density gangs that spawn reliably, then you can lead them to zones with one density, no ped paths and no gang members spawning in the rural zone so you can finally start a war.

 

Gang war glitches are often layers of tricks upon tricks; it can be difficult to keep track of all of the specifics and implications.

Yeah OrionSR, fortunately when I fly to the south and see no changes, I turn off the console without saving, and when I do the glitch, I check every zone and starting taxi missions, I have my main game and a memory card with the glitch prediction, anyways I was able to put gang9 on JEFF3? (territory with safehouse) and Mafia on HASH, 

 

So the sheet you posted of the ps2 map is something similar that I was doing, avoid flying south, going east creates turfs on SF and going west creates turfs on LS and countryside, but why north can't add more turfs. Similar to why LV can't be glitched. And one last thing, when doing the glitch, it glitches the airport tickets, i doesn't allow you to use it, a black screen shows and the game continues, unless you save before using it and load the game again, then It will be functional again. 


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#43

Posted A week ago

 And one last thing, when doing the glitch, it glitches the airport tickets, i doesn't allow you to use it, a black screen shows and the game continues, unless you save before using it and load the game again, then It will be functional again. 

Thank you. That's a very useful observation - both the glitch and the fix.

 

And now that you mention it, I have a vague memory of other minor issues that don't persist. Or maybe it's your airport glitch and I just forgot about it. So keep an eye out for any other oddities related to this glitch. Let's collect it all here, even if it's minor.

 

PS2 is safe from the Taxi glitch.  I don't see any serious hazards in the southern seas for PS2. You might break a zone so the name doesn't appear anymore but it doesn't look like that can hurt anything. There is nothing good to be found by glitching zone info, so it might be best to stay out, but it might be worth the risk if you can use this area as a buffer to slip into a target zone without triggering glitches in surrounding zones. 

=9 + 10*(MOD(ROUNDDOWN((X+3000)/600),256)) - MOD(ROUNDDOWN((Y+3000)/600),256)

This formula explains why the glitch is limited to a memory range of -246 to +2559 centered on the start of the zone fog array. The first 100 bytes aren't glitches. Anything below 0 or above 99 is a potential glitch. I'm not sure it would help to try to explain the math. I suspect that most of the confusion is related to the difficulty of viewing game memory, especially on PS2. I found my old memory dumps, finally. I could post the hex data for all the good that would do. It's the same thing as the sector glitch map if you laid out the blocks from -246 to 2559. 

 

There are glitches far above and below what is shown on the map but it's all repeated data of what's in between. The map seems too large as it is. Extending it north would make finding the center islands all that more difficult. Extending it lower until the pattern repeats again might provide useful information to long distant explorers but the Sheet seems to big as it is - it's kinda laggy.

 

ric, I can't remember the topic you mentioned but that doesn't mean it didn't exist or that I didn't read it. On more than one occasion a web research project has ended with my own notes.

 

I suspect your comment on retesting your flight test was generated by the unexpected results. I wouldn't consider this more evidence to ignore the data. But as it is I already threw out that info to make the map fit recent observations; I'm just not sure if I need to keep it on the shelf or leave it in long term storage.

 

And wow, dude. You keep awesome notes.


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#44

Posted A week ago

ric, I can't remember the topic you mentioned but that doesn't mean it didn't exist or that I didn't read it. On more than one occasion a web research project has ended with my own notes.
 
I suspect your comment on retesting your flight test was generated by the unexpected results. I wouldn't consider this more evidence to ignore the data. But as it is I already threw out that info to make the map fit recent observations; I'm just not sure if I need to keep it on the shelf or leave it in long term storage.
 
And wow, dude. You keep awesome notes.


I think the topic may be from a old cheat-device forums that didnt survive. Dont bother with it, i just wondered if you remembered it.

Test results... I think its fair to discard them for many reasons, back it thoses days my testing methods were unexperienced and sloppy. I remember testing several things at the same time and not really understanding how one testing could corrupt further testing results...i learned, but it took time and several errors.

Awesome notes? Not really, handwritten, unorganized, erratic... Yes!

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#45

Posted A week ago Edited by OrionSR, A week ago.

San Andreas Sector Map - PC Google Sheet

San Andreas Sector Map - PC PDF

 

This is a new map sheet with a different link. The large files are difficult to manage so I made a copy before making changes. The original maps still exist. 

 

The goal of this version was to show the full glitch in the far south as this is where most of the action is for PC.The sheet was centered on a single map and trimmed to the west/east  boundaries at +/-76500 where the patterns starts to repeat. Part of the goal is to "show" the larger map. The sheets limit how small they can make things so I'm working towards and image.

 

I can't find a way to convert the google sheet to an image other than pasting together a series of screenshots so I saved it as a PDF in the hope of finding something that can convert PDF to image; no luck yet. The PDF can show the full map in the shape of an A3 sheet, so the map has been extended to fill the page and adjusted north and south to show the immediate area as best as possible.

 

The file is under 7MB but most PDF viewers are having a very difficult time displaying the map, and if you wait long enough for them to load they won't zoom in close enough to read the text. After failures with whatever is standard for Chrome and Edge, and giving up on the latest Adobe version, I finally found Xodo, which not only displays the required detail level and loads the file fairly quickly, but also remembers where you last viewing and the zoom level. The map fills in the detail level like a Google Map but it works well enough to get the big picture.

 

The main problem to the PDF is that the frozen boarders don't work so it's harder to find reference on coordinates.

 

Can anyone suggest a strategy that can lead to an image of appropriate size and quality? Are there better PDF viewers than Xodo?

 

A PS2 version should be easy enough to make but isn't as necessary; all the interesting stuff on PS2 is east or west. But I want to make sure the PC version is in good shape before copying the sheet and pasting in a PS2 lookup table.

 

@ric. Your notes are awesome because you can find and use them when needed many years later.

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VercettiKiller
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#46

Posted A week ago

OrionSR, So on PS2 nothing happens on south and north (or any hazardous glitch?), and one useful thing I do is counting minutes, if I fly towards east until I hit 5 min, then BAYS gets green, purple or yellow. Without hitting X button

 

PD: My "backup" of the PS2V1 Pal of San Andras had the taxi glitch, that time  I dind't know about the glitch and SUNMA, BAYV, and OCEAF1 had ballas and ELCO 1 and ELCO2 had the glitched vagos territory. That ocurred on 2007


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#47

Posted A week ago

I don't really have a big picture map for PS2 yet, but it's not really needed if you can follow how the glitches are flipped. But this doesn't matter quite as much for northern flights - maybe you just want to safely rack up some flight time. If you can view the PC pdf map posted above it shows how the grey Fog Sector 10x10 grids progress north, and one notch east, starting with the main map at the bottom. These fog sectors glitch on the main map and can't hurt anything. 

 

But the map doesn't extend very far north, and probably won't. To get an idea of what lies north look to the east of the main map and find another track of fog sector grids progressing south and a little west until they finally terminate directly below the main map. Picture the main map in the bottom grid. What lies north of this grid will look just like what's north of the main map.

 

Nothing about this glitch would predict a taxi glitch on PS2. There's no way for the math to work out to produce an identical glitch as PC, and I can't see how the available glitches could mess with taxi passengers. Maybe your glitch was transient, like the airport tickets? If you still have the save, and can figure out how to upload it to SnP, I'd love to take a look inside.


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#48

Posted A week ago Edited by VercettiKiller, A week ago.

Unfortunate that save Game was deleted way back whrn I bought the trilogy set. Sorry Orion

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#49

Posted A week ago

Fair enough. To be clear, it is not my intention to discount your observation. Weird things happen in San Andreas that I've never been able to explain, and it's often difficult to tell how everything interacts on late game saves. But glitching turfs by flying off the map was a very popular activity when San Andreas was still the hot new thing and there was no hint of any issues with the Taxi glitch until PC and Xbox versions were released. But then again, the forum communities weren't nearly as robust back in the dark ages of the internet.

 

Everything about the hypothesis that predicts the maps linked on the first page suggests that it is impossible to glitch the Taxi mission in the same way as PC and Xbox when playing on PS2. You might get some odd zone name glitches if you fly south of the map but it shouldn't break any missions. If you can export and import saves with SnP then please try to prove me wrong. Send me the link and I'll fix it for you if the Modifications fix tool doesn't work on PS2 - it wasn't expected to be needed.


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#50

Posted A week ago

@OrionSR

Sadly the ps2 i borrowed is unable to read disk, i cleaned the lens and tryed to find any problems without luck.

Ill try to find another, for id like to try a few things on ps2 myself... I might have a project, not sure yet.

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#51

Posted A week ago Edited by VercettiKiller, A week ago.

@OrionSR

 

SnP? i don´t know how to do that, my ps2 is unmodified. Or better yet, i don´t know about sending save files from ps2 memory card to pc. :'(


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#52

Posted A week ago

SnP = Save 'n Play, and is now synonymous with the save sharing services at GTASnP.com, the easiest way to share GTA saves. Support is available for most non-encrypted GTA save formats and it has extra features like glitch detection, repair and prevention, and completion progress analysis.

 

It's possible to copy saves between PS2 and PC but it's a difficult process to gather the required hardware and software this late in the game. I would suggest that you look for other forms of entertainment and avoid the southern seas on PS2; I doubt I'll be able to learn anything useful without viewing the save data. If you have any suggestions for how others might reproduce the glitch then this would be a good topic to record that information. How's the current map working out with recent observations?


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#53

Posted A week ago Edited by VercettiKiller, A week ago.

 
If you have any suggestions for how others might reproduce the glitch then this would be a good topic to record that information. How's the current map working out with recent observations?

 
Well, right now I'm not playing san andreas, I took a break for the game, but I will see what else happens but I won't fly to southern seas. Keep the good work, I will post some pics (from cellphone) of my findings later.

Testing Northeast seas. Edit: flown 16 min with shamal on auto, the popcycle on SFDTW1 changed to countryside even cars.


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#54

Posted 5 days ago

I was able to reproduce the glitch from saint mark's bistro mission, and happened different. First I was able to glitch SUNNMA again with vagos, then I flew again and SUNNMA was not affected, instead there were con PALISADES Vagos and Da Nang and SILLY1 was too but with Da Nang and Mafia but here the popcycle was countryside.

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#55

Posted 5 days ago

but here the popcycle was countryside.

 

Wow. I think that you must of discovered a completely new glitch. This glitch can't do that. You should take your glitch to it's own topic. I'll be very interested to learn the results of your investigation.


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#56

Posted 3 days ago Edited by VercettiKiller, A day ago.

Well Orion, this seems connected to the this glitch, right now, SFTDW1 is free of that glitch (loaded a previous save), another fact that, this actually works as COUNTRYSIDE but on evenings acts as Beach (Explorers peds and BF injections started to appear) and then changes to country and no gang appears on SILLY3 but SILLY4 has gangs spawning there. I remember that the archive that you posted the PS2 Map says popcycle, what about alpha?

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#57

Posted A day ago Edited by VercettiKiller, A day ago.

After checking the west part of the map trying to add gang8 in Los Santos, I was succesful, the gant bridge almost near SUNN is the directly flying path towards west, were JEFF1B and JEFF2 will gain: the first gang8 and with the help of Masterminds glitch now they fight against groove and JEFF2 has now ballas, Mafia 1 and gang8 1. So your map is almost accurate and can be used for ps2 predictions but without saying victory because on east the bistro path adds CIVI sometimes and other times BAYV, just flying off the full 3 mim. This gang8 spawn was made by flying off for almost 1 to 1:30 min towards west.

So flying towards west on SF area GANTB, SUNN glitches all JEFF area on the first couple of min. Now flying off for 20 min glitches most part of JEFF, IDLW, LIND, LAIR1, VERO then goes to MAKO, FALLO both on ballas then ROBAD, LA with groove, and finally WESTP1 ballas and CIVI with ballas, mafia and da Nang. Note that there is a strange behaviour with the air on the west side, somehow it pushes toward north even when is not raining.

OrionSR
  • OrionSR

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#58

Posted A day ago Edited by OrionSR, A day ago.

I think I figured something out with your zones glitched with countryside peds, maybe. Please repeat your tests after visiting the countryside, and then the desert, and visiting them each again until you are confident that you can tell one from the other.

 

Be specific about which zones are glitched. Avoid run-on sentences. Maybe try a bullet list format with only one zone and glitch per line. Or just use more periods. And spell the zone names correctly, please, so I can use it as a search key in my records.

 

The formula predicts that business zones can be glitched into desert zones. I suspect that business zones with gangs will be immune from the glitch (none by default), I'll need to sort through my data before updating the maps. In the meantime, I just completed a sequential zone list that includes the full zone name for each zone, the ethnicity flags (in hex, sorry), the popcycle, and which gang controls the zone by default. But it's formatted as a template enum so I'll post it in my other topic and link it back here.

 

Zone List with zone name, index, gxt key, full zone name, enthnic flags, popcycle and dominant gang. Open the spoiler.


VercettiKiller
  • VercettiKiller

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#59

Posted A day ago Edited by VercettiKiller, A day ago.

Sorry Orion, i was writing in it on my cellphone, so that's why I'm not doing in it on a list. I wrote it bases on areas like JEFF area, CIVI are. I´ll make that list later with pictures (cellphone) and I will look the contrysides and desert to see what happened to SILLY3.





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