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The People vs Take-Two: OpenIV mod shut down

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Pedinhuh
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#31

Posted 16 June 2017 - 04:32 PM Edited by Pedinhuh, 16 June 2017 - 04:45 PM.

Well written Kirsty (edited in, forgetting my manners initially).
 
Very much a novice modder here, but my 2 cents.
 
I've made my own IV Multiplayer mod. Nothing malicious - I've made a new Cops 'n Crooks set of getaway locations. The mod is in tight distribution with trusted friends, and the title of the server is hard coded so it's clear anyone is playing a modded game mode (before I get flamed). I have enough knowledge, if I'd have wished, to do things such as enable god mode for specific players and vehicles - but I chose not to.
 
Open IV couldn't be used to make this kind of mod. I haven't tried to edit any GTAO scripts, but at my best guess, it would be the same story. It's not impossible of course someone might have used Open IV in conjunction with other software I'm not aware of, but from my perspective the amount of experience you'd need to do that sort of thing, you'd be fully capable of starting from scratch anyway. At most I would say Open IV might be a CONVENIENT tool for cheaters much in the same way it is for all of us (working out what R* have changed with a patch for example), but I suspect it is neither necessary nor sufficient for the trouble makers.
 
Arguably that's speculation on my part, tempered with experience, but here's exhibit A for the defense: the most notorious and cancerous mod menu has released a new version AFTER Open IV was shut down and the gunrunning update came out. So clearly, shutting down Open IV has not stopped cheating. I'm fairly certain the mod menus causing the problems are all written in languages like C. It might have been more plausible if they'd gone after the Script Hook as we know at least one cheat is utilising this (ripped of without AB's permission it should be noted).
 
In my mind there are two possibilities:
1) In response to cheating, Take2 have adopted an extreme stance banning the most major modding tool (most likely IMHO without full knowledge of it's capabilities).
2) There is another reason for shutting down Open IV, that they are not sharing. The Liberty City in V project the Open IV team were working on is one possibility, Open IV being used to inspect game files and leak pre-release info is another.
 
My money is on 2) and 1) being used as a (very faulty) PR smoke screen.

According to what Ash-274 has said, you're right on the money.

Which is really ridiculous when you think about it, I thought that they LOVED the leakers so much they asked the leakers to participate in their streams, and R* has said in the past that they "fondly remember" the mod that made old GTAs maps available on IV.

It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
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junior731657
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#32

Posted 16 June 2017 - 04:39 PM

It will stop the money hackers for a little while, but they'll find a way round it soon enough, but honest creators & coders of the singleplayer element still won't be able to mod through fear of getting banned or reset, it's the modding community that have given GTA games through the years a new leases of life, I've even heared of people buying ancient GTA titles just so they can run certain mods, be they TCs or just simple texture imporvements, I do hope Rockstar & Take2 reconsider, I've even been told that OpenIV stops you from going online anyway.

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Claude_Lib
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#33

Posted 16 June 2017 - 04:49 PM

It will stop the money hackers for a little while

It will NOT change ANYTHING regarding cheating in Online. If you haven't noticed there are ALREADY assholes using the updated Force HAX menu in Online.
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#34

Posted 16 June 2017 - 04:58 PM

It will stop the money hackers for a little while

Not even a little bit. While OpenIV makes it easier to inspect contents of data files, which can be useful in developing certain hacks, there are alternative ways to get to that data out there already, and the actual hacks developed do not involve OpenIV either way. The cumulative delay this creates on money hacking is about five seconds it takes the hacker to process just how mind-numbingly stupid Take-Two has been, and then go on on their merry way to make new hacks.
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Great Britain
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#35

Posted 16 June 2017 - 04:58 PM

I don't know where people are getting this whole "This is the root of all evil hacking" bs. 

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Happy Hunter
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#36

Posted 16 June 2017 - 05:14 PM

Down with Take Poo.

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frazzlee
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#37

Posted 16 June 2017 - 05:47 PM

So from experience with OpenIV (including some internals), ScriptHook, and the kind of tools you'd actually use to crack a game, the claims that R* is making about OpenIV connection to on-line hacking are total bull.

This was an action taken by clueless managers who have no f*cking idea how modding or hacking works. And they've made false claims about it. OpenIV has not contributed to the on-line hacking. Just the opposite.

Back in the days of San Andreas modding, making a comprehensive mod required a lot of know-how and hours spent on IRC channels. Until a few days ago, making GTAV mods was comparatively easy. The underground community for GTA mods has shrunk considerably thanks to the availability of OpenIV.

This is about to be reversed. Modders who still want to make modifications for GTAV are going to flood right back into the same IRC channels and message boards, fueling new growth of underground modding community. Among the notable fallout, we will see faster development of hacks designed to bypass any security designed to prevent on-line cheating. Take-Two just shot themselves in the foot big time.

Unfortunately, as usual in such cases, the entire community is going to suffer. Everyone except for cheaters, of course, who will be thrilled.

They know full well OpenIV doesn't contribute to online cheats , they are aware of this

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MissingNoGuy55
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#38

Posted 16 June 2017 - 05:52 PM

All GooD would have to do is disable online in OpenIV.asi, yes? It seems like this is the only issue with OpenIV. If you'd do that, you would take the target off the program.

 

Would that work?


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#39

Posted 16 June 2017 - 05:53 PM Edited by Jimbatron, 16 June 2017 - 06:01 PM.

They know full well OpenIV doesn't contribute to online cheats , they are aware of this


I suspect you may be right. Please don't take offence by me asking - is this known, or an educated guess?

I think I have a good idea what open IV can and can't do. I have no idea how much R* know about Open IV.

How much effort do they put into researching the work of the modding community? Do they do more than take a cursory glance when deciding whether to draft a C&D. Because most miss you could argue break the EULA if you took a pedantic and harsh legal perpestive.

My view is for major mod developers like the Open IV team R* would be best served by maintaining informal contact - offering advice along the lines of "this stuff is ok, but don't stray into this area.". I don't know if they do that or not.

The modding community may not be the majority of the fans, but I believe a lot of the non-malicious mods have helped the franchise popularity. They should be concerned about this.
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MissingNoGuy55
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#40

Posted 16 June 2017 - 05:59 PM Edited by MissingNoGuy55, 16 June 2017 - 06:00 PM.

Just because people think "they're aware but want to kill modding" doesn't make my question invalid.


unbid
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#41

Posted 16 June 2017 - 06:04 PM

So I posted this earlier:

U: Do you think R* will give you any warnings for leaking the next game update content?
Y: Rockstar never said anything about my leaks, and I made it clear to them several times that if they ever get tired of them, they can simply send me an email or a Twitter DM to tell me to stop posting leaks or whatever they would want, and I would happily do what they say. Sure, I post leaks, but I'm still a big Rockstar fan and I still have a lot of respect for them, and even though leaks might seem disrespectful, if they don't say anything I just assume they're ok with that. And judging by what I heard, I actually believe they're ok with my leaks, probably because I'm not being an asshole (unlike someone else).


I need to clarify this with Yan if R* personally emailed him to stop leaking future contents. If they are, then that should be the main reason why T2 send C&D to OpenIV.


and this is Yan's response:

84fd802eb2ef8ff288abf3d29fa29143.png

R* and T2 didn't personally emailed Yan as he's one of the most notorious GTA Online leaker, which is kind of baffling that they directly attack the tool creators yet doesn't even seem to care about the leakers themselves.

Then again, FoxySnaps is pretty much the one who leaked the Gunrunning update hidden contents, so I wonder if R* and T2 emailed him instead.
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MissingNoGuy55
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#42

Posted 16 June 2017 - 06:04 PM Edited by MissingNoGuy55, 16 June 2017 - 06:10 PM.

 

They know full well OpenIV doesn't contribute to online cheats , they are aware of this


I suspect you may be right. Please don't take offence by me asking - is this known, or an educated guess?

I think I have a good idea what open IV can and can't do. I have no idea how much R* know about Open IV.

How much effort do they put into researching the work of the modding community? Do they do more than take a cursory glance when deciding whether to draft a C&D. Because most miss you could argue break the EULA if you took a pedantic and harsh legal perpestive.

My view is for major mod developers like the Open IV team R* would be best served by maintaining informal contact - offering advice along the lines of "this stuff is ok, but don't stray into this area.". I don't know if they do that or not.

The modding community may not be the majority of the fans, but I believe a lot of the non-malicious mods have helped the franchise popularity. They should be concerned about this.

 

 

They probably have busy lives and spend a lot of time doing things outside their development circle, so I doubt they know as much as we think they would. This is where the community steps in, to educate them on how wrong they are.


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#43

Posted 16 June 2017 - 06:23 PM Edited by _MK_, 16 June 2017 - 06:25 PM.

This tool has been up for ten years,ten straight years,this whole C&C thing began with FiveM a Multiplayer mod,then with RDRV a Map,now tell which one of these has anything to do with cheating ? forget FiveM,but RDRV which is just a map for f*cks sake ! and now OpenIV just when they were getting ready for Liberty City V (another map) they toke the whole thing down,no this is about the Modding community being a direct threat to their precious money making machine GTAO.

 

Really anyone at this point who thinks this is about cheaters is just being naive or likes to suck Rockstar's ass.

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Pastry
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#44

Posted 16 June 2017 - 06:45 PM

Spoiler

Well if they didn't contact Yan then they should have some other motive for taking down the tool, right? I'm almost certain Rockstar knows it doesn't help cheaters since they've allegedly used it before so that couldn't the real reason either. I want to believe that it's official modding tools but I highly doubt that.


DarkSavageDeathlyCloud
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#45

Posted 16 June 2017 - 06:49 PM

This is kinda problematic though...i mean about protesting, i wonder if it will really do anything.

 

As far i see rockstar is just only gonna care about consoles only soon, since those players bring in the most money, so i am really not sure pc as a whole is even that important to them :/


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#46

Posted 16 June 2017 - 07:06 PM

PC Gamer have updated their original article to say that Take-Two have declined to make any further comments to them. They've also published some new articles about the situation:

20,000 sign OpenIV petition as GTA 5 is hammered with negative Steam reviews

OpenIV closure 'devastating for machinima creators', says popular GTA 5 stunt creator
 
c5b79951134c303a39ffc3e18dc97975.png
 
 

84fd802eb2ef8ff288abf3d29fa29143.png


I think this type of "leaking" is different to the one being targeted and discussed here. This is about the game files, so it's technically not "leaking" which is why I put it in inverted commas in the OP, but it's not something everyone can easily access unless they know how to. When Rockstar releases an update, all the content can be found in the game files, including any vehicles planned for release by the drip-feed method. As soon as updates hit, a tool like OpenIV can be used to view them and share them out to the community, as far as we know. These assets are not something Rockstar intends for people to see ahead of release, even though they put it there themselves. It's complicated...

The insider source "leaking" is how members like Yan shares information, but we don't want to open up a can of worms by discussing that, it's similar to the above yet completely different due to the nature the information gets out.

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sjaak327
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#47

Posted 16 June 2017 - 07:34 PM Edited by sjaak327, 16 June 2017 - 07:37 PM.

I have spend considerable time modding R's games. I have always done this with much pleasure and relentless efforts. Now I cannot be bothered anymore. It all started with the absolute bollokcs, where people choosing to play this game in Single Player have been purposely being blocked from using additional DLC vehicles.

Sure they did it in such a way that it was easy to circumvent. But the very fact that some paying customers are apparently less important than others is all you need to know.

In over two years into this game, there has been absolutely NOTHING for people that want to play this game in isolation. It has all been about bloody online.

Now those people have precious little to look forward too, as R does nothing for them but trying to prevent them from getting the maximum out of this game.

No-one likes cheapskates, and I would be willing to pay for SP DLC, but there has been absolutely nothing, nada zero.

f*ck you Rockstar, I will not bother anymore.

As to leaking information, what utter bollocks, they release game files, and people inspect those. How could that ever considered to be "leaking". As far as I'm concerned they can stick their game where the sun don't shine.
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Viboxing (GTAGFX)
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#48

Posted 16 June 2017 - 07:47 PM Edited by Viboxing, 16 June 2017 - 08:02 PM.

It seems the Take-Two have had no regard for the content creators on YouTube or Twitch that this is heavily going to impact. People like TypicalGamer (A good friend with Rockstar) depends on Mods for his content in a lot of ways and my good friend GTAWiseGuy has created many trailers and friendly mods for his pleasing and his channel has revolved around mods for quite sometime now and it angers me.

 

If it's always worried them so much that it's ruining online, why have they let Open IV run for such a long time before GTA V was around? I know the answer to my own question. They're scared that people (who don't have a degree in Games Design) are capable of such amazing creations. The Liberty City Mod & The Red Dead Redemption map. Liberty City has been highly requested for a long time and many people have said they wouldn't mind if it was a paid DLC. People have proved that you didn't need a huge corporate company to pull it off and Take-Two didn't like that. Declaring modding illegal if f*cking stupid and "Rockstar's" statement seemed so forced its unreal. We need a newswire on this and a real explanation rather than a half-arsed one. I'm heading to NY next week to see the community team and I'm obviously gonna ask them some questions and there thoughts on the situation but, honestly, I'll probably get nothing from it because they're there to represent the company.

 

Anyway, I hope we get either some sort of detailed response or just something to hold on to because there's only one way I can describe this whole situation:

Censorship on Creativity.

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PsychoAnarchy666
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#49

Posted 16 June 2017 - 07:52 PM

I personally don't care considering when i was playing GTAV on the PC i didn't even know how to install mods or do this and that with em witch i guess is the same thing as i didn't know how to install em... but anyways i get some people's points and they definitely make sense,i love seeing cool like story telling machinimas and i understand that a lot of the people from the modding community who don't use there mods to F with others players,remember with great power must come great responsibility,don't know why i just said that but yeah i get what the community is saying but just personally don't really care idk.

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#50

Posted 16 June 2017 - 07:55 PM

I personally don't care considering when i was playing GTAV on the PC i didn't even know how to install mods or do this and that with em witch i guess is the same thing as i didn't know how to install em... but anyways i get some people's points and they definitely make sense,i love seeing cool like story telling machinimas and i understand that a lot of the people from the modding community who don't use there mods to F with others players,remember with great power must come great responsibility,don't know why i just said that but yeah i get what the community is saying but just personally don't really care idk.

You don't care x2 and admitted you don't know jack about modding but you still posted anyway, ...cool.
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PsychoAnarchy666
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#51

Posted 16 June 2017 - 08:07 PM

I personally don't care considering when i was playing GTAV on the PC i didn't even know how to install mods or do this and that with em witch i guess is the same thing as i didn't know how to install em... but anyways i get some people's points and they definitely make sense,i love seeing cool like story telling machinimas and i understand that a lot of the people from the modding community who don't use there mods to F with others players,remember with great power must come great responsibility,don't know why i just said that but yeah i get what the community is saying but just personally don't really care idk.

You don't care x2 and admitted you don't know jack about modding but you still posted anyway, ...cool.
Yeah i don't know how to install mods like i stated but i do know the concept of it. You don't got to come out on me dude instead you should've of asked me to elaborate.

I personally don't care considering when i was playing GTAV on the PC i didn't even know how to install mods or do this and that with em witch i guess is the same thing as i didn't know how to install em... but anyways i get some people's points and they definitely make sense,i love seeing cool like story telling machinimas and i understand that a lot of the people from the modding community who don't use there mods to F with others players,remember with great power must come great responsibility,don't know why i just said that but yeah i get what the community is saying but just personally don't really care idk.

You don't care x2 and admitted you don't know jack about modding but you still posted anyway, ...cool.
I type as my thoughts come plus sometimes my thoughts get mixed up.

EddieLTU
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#52

Posted 16 June 2017 - 08:10 PM Edited by EddieLTU, 16 June 2017 - 08:10 PM.

It seems the Take-Two have had no regard for the content creators on YouTube or Twitch that this is heavily going to impact. People like TypicalGamer (A good friend with Rockstar) depends on Mods for his content in a lot of ways and my good friend GTAWiseGuy has created many trailers and friendly mods for his pleasing and his channel has revolved around mods for quite sometime now and it angers me.

 

If it's always worried them so much that it's ruining online, why have they let Open IV run for such a long time before GTA V was around? I know the answer to my own question. They're scared that people (who don't have a degree in Games Design) are capable of such amazing creations. The Liberty City Mod & The Red Dead Redemption map. Liberty City has been highly requested for a long time and many people have said they wouldn't mind if it was a paid DLC. People have proved that you didn't need a huge corporate company to pull it off and Take-Two didn't like that. Declaring modding illegal if f*cking stupid and "Rockstar's" statement seemed so forced its unreal. We need a newswire on this and a real explanation rather than a half-arsed one. I'm heading to NY next week to see the community team and I'm obviously gonna ask them some questions and there thoughts on the situation but, honestly, I'll probably get nothing from it because they're there to represent the company.

 

Anyway, I hope we get either some sort of detailed response or just something to hold on to because there's only one way I can describe this whole situation:

Censorship on Creativity.

good luck man, also be sure to knock on Strauss Zelnick's office door and say f*ck you

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CRAZY AL WARD
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#53

Posted 16 June 2017 - 08:13 PM

If T2 is seriously gonna go & do this Bullsh!t...

 

Then they got another thing coming!


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#54

Posted 16 June 2017 - 08:20 PM

So, essentially. According to the original Take-Two vs. Modding (link to post) thread, the OpenIV plugin did allow you to go into Online

Now I feel so f*cking bad about bringing this up...

The OpenIV plugin does indeed allow you to enter online...or rather it did...BUT...there is one very huge caveat. Loading any modified assets would cause the game to put you in your own lobby; you could only play with people who had the exact same modified RPFs...therefore Rockstars statement still isn't factual. ScripthookV does block online access...and recently Rockstar added asi loader detection and refused access to online themselves.

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#55

Posted 16 June 2017 - 08:45 PM

 

 

So, essentially. According to the original Take-Two vs. Modding (link to post) thread, the OpenIV plugin did allow you to go into Online

Now I feel so f*cking bad about bringing this up...

 

The OpenIV plugin does indeed allow you to enter online...or rather it did...BUT...there is one very huge caveat. Loading any modified assets would cause the game to put you in your own lobby; you could only play with people who had the exact same modified RPFs...therefore Rockstars statement still isn't factual. ScripthookV does block online access...and recently Rockstar added asi loader detection and refused access to online themselves.

 

 

So, if GTAO now prevents ScripthookV from connecting program-side ... where was the issue?

 

I'm sorry, but this just reaffirms my opinion that we are nothing more than lost revenue to T2. This has nothing to do with interfering with other players in Online. It is solely down to the fact that legitimate modders aren't participating in Online at all. If we aren't playing GTAO, we aren't paying our way, and so we aren't even classed as collateral damage because we weren't handing over money post-purchase anyway. T2 has got all the money they were ever going to get from us when we plonked down the £50. A paltry sum which is completely irrelevant, at least according to Zelnick.

 

Symbolic and ineffectual as it may be, but there's no way I am wasting any more of my life grinding GTAO if this is the level of contempt T2 has for myself and the rest of its playerbase.

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Viboxing (GTAGFX)
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#56

Posted 16 June 2017 - 08:48 PM

 

It seems the Take-Two have had no regard for the content creators on YouTube or Twitch that this is heavily going to impact. People like TypicalGamer (A good friend with Rockstar) depends on Mods for his content in a lot of ways and my good friend GTAWiseGuy has created many trailers and friendly mods for his pleasing and his channel has revolved around mods for quite sometime now and it angers me.

 

If it's always worried them so much that it's ruining online, why have they let Open IV run for such a long time before GTA V was around? I know the answer to my own question. They're scared that people (who don't have a degree in Games Design) are capable of such amazing creations. The Liberty City Mod & The Red Dead Redemption map. Liberty City has been highly requested for a long time and many people have said they wouldn't mind if it was a paid DLC. People have proved that you didn't need a huge corporate company to pull it off and Take-Two didn't like that. Declaring modding illegal if f*cking stupid and "Rockstar's" statement seemed so forced its unreal. We need a newswire on this and a real explanation rather than a half-arsed one. I'm heading to NY next week to see the community team and I'm obviously gonna ask them some questions and there thoughts on the situation but, honestly, I'll probably get nothing from it because they're there to represent the company.

 

Anyway, I hope we get either some sort of detailed response or just something to hold on to because there's only one way I can describe this whole situation:

Censorship on Creativity.

good luck man, also be sure to knock on Strauss Zelnick's office door and say f*ck you

 

 

If security isn't in my way, i'll try haha


ChengizVlad09
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#57

Posted 16 June 2017 - 08:51 PM Edited by ChengizVlad09, 16 June 2017 - 08:54 PM.

It is completely understandable that the very top of the company wants to make sure they are doing everything to protect their product. But, as usual in life, somehow it ends up being a measure so drastic and draconian which results in hurting majority of those who aren't actually any part of the problem - in this case the real GTA community, those who, other than official game developers and creators, are managing to make something new and exciting and are doing it so in the way nobody is getting 'hurt', or quite the contrary.

Now, if I were to guess, I'd say a bunch of corporate mouses are behind this in that sense that they're doing what they are told without any real questioning and insight into the very essence of the problem itself. It's a dirty job, but hey, I guess someone's gotta do it.

What I'm really scared of, and I hope I don't need a tin foil hat and I really hope I'm plain wrong on this one, is that creating force in our community could actually be the problem, not those cheating scums.

If you think about it, in many occurrences the plans of corporate big shots oppose the wants of the community and vice versa, but indeed, there are compromises in majority of cases and things get balanced out in the end.

I don't know, probably I'm talking out of my a$$ here, but somehow I got the feeling those corporate masters don't like someone sticking their nose into their jobs, because of 'corporate' reasons, not even when it's something naive as game making, which is very far away from naive for the last decade, especially when it comes to Grand Theft Auto, after all they have entire teams of people under their payrolls for that.

I don't know really, after all game developers can learn a bunch just by listening to its community, hopefully things will balance itself in the way that suits every side and I really hope we'll see a propper anti-cheating seystem, as soon as RDR2 comes out, that will be a good sign of lesson learned and a right thing to do when it comes to protecting the game and the community at the same time.
  • Mister Pink likes this

Deji
  • Deji

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#58

Posted 16 June 2017 - 10:29 PM

It probably isn't going to catch on, but I'll just say it now... let's just f*cking boycott T2. That slither of me interested in RDR2 has just gone now, and I doubt I'll be interested in anything else they'll be offering any time soon.
  • K^2, MeatSafeMurderer, SilverRST and 1 other like this

Jimbatron
  • Jimbatron

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#59

Posted 16 June 2017 - 11:55 PM Edited by Jimbatron, 17 June 2017 - 12:03 AM.

I have spend considerable time modding R's games. I have always done this with much pleasure and relentless efforts. Now I cannot be bothered anymore. It all started with the absolute bollokcs, where people choosing to play this game in Single Player have been purposely being blocked from using additional DLC vehicles.

Sure they did it in such a way that it was easy to circumvent. But the very fact that some paying customers are apparently less important than others is all you need to know.

In over two years into this game, there has been absolutely NOTHING for people that want to play this game in isolation. It has all been about bloody online.

Now those people have precious little to look forward too, as R does nothing for them but trying to prevent them from getting the maximum out of this game.

No-one likes cheapskates, and I would be willing to pay for SP DLC, but there has been absolutely nothing, nada zero.

f*ck you Rockstar, I will not bother anymore.

As to leaking information, what utter bollocks, they release game files, and people inspect those. How could that ever considered to be "leaking". As far as I'm concerned they can stick their game where the sun don't shine.

 

I clicked on "like" for this out of respect for the author's opinion. This does not surprise me when people who have dedicated so much of their free time to creativity and positivity to have been cut short in an unjustified manner. But when I click like it does not mean that I am not sad at the same time.

 

This worries me. It may not be the end of the world, but so much that was fun and creative may be gone for ever. And for what? This will be for the good of no one. Decisions made by corporations who do not fully understand the consequences. This is a decision by Take2/R* where potentially everyone loses. Anyone who is in the know here realises this will not stop cheating in Online, and therefore, what is to gain for anyone from all this?

 

I've just got back in late, may post more fully when I have had more time to collect my thoughts. One thing is clear in my mind though. People like sjaak327 and GooD-NTS are the good guys. They've done more promote this genre than a TV advert ever could. This situation is wrong - end of story.

  • sjaak327, Beastly40 and Xiled like this

ChengizVlad09
  • ChengizVlad09

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#60

Posted 17 June 2017 - 01:27 AM

I don't know how it didn't occur to me before, but take a look at Bethesda and their Creation Club or whatever, could that be the direction things are going with games developed by Rockstar? The chance for Take2 to implement some kind of micro transaction system a la GTA:O ? They know they'll storm through the negative publicity at first and in their case any publicity is good publicity by the way, so that in the end they roll out some form of paid mods or something? Excuse my lack of modding knowledge, but I'd bet my balls it has something to do with micro transactions.





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