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Liberty City Differences in 1987

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Atari-Dude
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#1

Posted 05 March 2017 - 12:37 AM Edited by Atari-Dude, 05 March 2017 - 12:39 AM.

If Liberty City from the 3D universe was shown in 1987, when Carl Johnson moved from Los Santos to Liberty City, what would be different about it? Obviously the ferries would still be thriving as the Callahan Bridge and tunnels had yet to be created at the time. But what else would have changed? I haven't played much of GTA III or Liberty City Stories, but I want to make a fan games based on CJ's stories from the East Coast. That would actually be the name of it - Grand Theft Auto: Episodes of the East Coast. Any suggestions would help. I already posted this under "Grand Theft Auto III", but there are some people that follow Liberty City Stories more than GTA III


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#2

Posted 05 March 2017 - 01:18 AM

Obviously, no Callahan Bridge. Not even a stump. Portland Island would be isolated from the other two cities, barring the Ferry. This could lead to gangs fighting over control of the Ferries, as control of these = control of the city. The Forellis were the big players at the time. Their power actually decreased over time in the GTA games. As Sonny Forelli died recently, there would be a power wrestle between other criminal organizations and within the Forellis, which ultimately led to them leaving Portland. Around that time, the Sindaccos may have arrived at LC from Las Venturas in order to expand their power. CJ was working for Joey Leone, but may have worked for someone else too
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#3

Posted 05 March 2017 - 10:33 PM

Obviously, no Callahan Bridge. Not even a stump. Portland Island would be isolated from the other two cities, barring the Ferry.

Usually I don't post in this part of the forums, however your comment left me thinking.

I'm fully aware that the old 3D Liberty City isn't meant to fully represent New York or other major American cities, however we can agree that LC is an important city in its own in the 3D universe. Considering that, I find hard to believe that, in such an important place, they took a very long time to realize that they needed bridges to connect their boroughs. From what I've heard (this information could not be reliable) Shoreside's lift bridge is fairly recent in 1998 and obviously the Callahan bridge was still being built at this point. I'm saying this because some people claim that the 3D era is more grounded in reality than the HD era, yet some aspects like this kinda contradict that.

I'm not trying to start an 3D / HD war or anything, just wanted to point out that.
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DimitriFaustin
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#4

Posted 05 March 2017 - 11:18 PM Edited by DimitriFaustin, 05 March 2017 - 11:52 PM.

 

Obviously, no Callahan Bridge. Not even a stump. Portland Island would be isolated from the other two cities, barring the Ferry.

Usually I don't post in this part of the forums, however your comment left me thinking.

I'm fully aware that the old 3D Liberty City isn't meant to fully represent New York or other major American cities, however we can agree that LC is an important city in its own in the 3D universe. Considering that, I find hard to believe that, in such an important place, they took a very long time to realize that they needed bridges to connect their boroughs. From what I've heard (this information could not be reliable) Shoreside's lift bridge is fairly recent in 1998 and obviously the Callahan bridge was still being built at this point. I'm saying this because some people claim that the 3D era is more grounded in reality than the HD era, yet some aspects like this kinda contradict that.

I'm not trying to start an 3D / HD war or anything, just wanted to point out that.

 

Boston's "Big Dig" project that lasted from the early '80s to the mid-2000's always comes to mind when thinking of the Porter Tunnel. Both were delayed for many years by corruption and other mishaps.

I've heard people from the area say that the Big Dig made traffic worse because it would've perfectly worked should the project have been completed on schedule as people greatly anticipated the project's completion. Not to mention that both projects have many flaws in the design and routing.

The 3D Liberty City is really more a mish-mash of New York, Boston, Philadelphia and other North Atlantic locations.

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DragonpokeZ
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#5

Posted 06 March 2017 - 01:48 AM

So if the Lift Bridge is recent in LCS, then it may have very well been on construction, maybe even nonexisting. I guess that means a whole another set of Ferries, with all the corruption that comes with that

Atari-Dude
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#6

Posted 06 March 2017 - 09:53 PM

So if the Lift Bridge is recent in LCS, then it may have very well been on construction, maybe even nonexisting. I guess that means a whole another set of Ferries, with all the corruption that comes with that

So do you think there may not have been either bridges back then? That would be interesting

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#7

Posted 07 March 2017 - 02:55 PM

The Industrial Part must have been still in development in 1987. From what I've fathomed in the other LC based games, the Portland was always a different and isolated sort of district from the other two. In 1987, Ferries would be thriving as usual, being the only way out of LC. No Callahan Bridge. Subway might have been a regular mode of transportation around LC. No Stadium in LC and Fort Staunton would still have that shopping area, maybe in construction. Hepburn Heights must have been a field or a patch of land with no big apartments in the area yet. Harwood and Radio Stations related to Love Media would exist (maybe).

As for Gangs, the Leones would still be in their early stages. Sindaccos would be small with their ruling. No Columbians as usual. Yakuza might still be operating on Staunton, having major control over areas with no Yardies to slow them. The Southside Purple 9 and Red Jacks, they might still be there. Forelli Gang must be really big in this time. Sonny Forelli was in charge and must have major influence over the city.

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#8

Posted 07 March 2017 - 03:41 PM

I doubt that the Yakuza would be big at that time - there was almost no presence of them in early 1998 and they only become more common after weakening/removing the Forellis/Sindaccos.


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#9

Posted 07 March 2017 - 05:09 PM

I think Triads is not arrived yet in LC back in '87 which is mean there is no Punk Noodle and I guess the Lion Statue that appears in GTA 3 beta would be good addition to fill the blank space.

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#10

Posted 07 March 2017 - 09:11 PM

There could've been another bridge that was torn down when the Callahan Bridge was made to replace it?

Also why are there two identical threads in different sections?

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Atari-Dude
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#11

Posted 07 March 2017 - 10:41 PM

There could've been another bridge that was torn down when the Callahan Bridge was made to replace it?

Also why are there two identical threads in different sections?

I made this thread and the other one because some people follow certain games and not the other. I thought it was a simple way to have more people see it so that there could be a bigger discussion


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#12

Posted 07 March 2017 - 10:52 PM

You could've probably posted it in the series chat section since I know some regulars of both sections go there.


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#13

Posted 07 March 2017 - 11:47 PM

I think it's OK as long as the discussion is on-topic and relevant to the specific game, since these are quiet sections anyhow.

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Atari-Dude
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#14

Posted 08 March 2017 - 12:21 AM

Another interesting thing to note is the "Harwood Train Yard". It is an abandoned railroad with little bits of it remaining in the games. I wonder that if in 1987, this train system might have still been in use?


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#15

Posted 08 March 2017 - 03:37 AM

I doubt that the Yakuza would be big at that time - there was almost no presence of them in early 1998 and they only become more common after weakening/removing the Forellis/Sindaccos.

Kazuki owned a Casino which was there before the game's events, so the Yakuza must have started somewhere, probably a few years before 1998. 
 

There could've been another bridge that was torn down when the Callahan Bridge was made to replace it?

I doubt that. Nowhere, even in real life a bridge is torn to make another. Always the new one is constructed before tearing the old one.
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universetwisters
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#16

Posted 08 March 2017 - 04:35 PM

There could've been another bridge that was torn down when the Callahan Bridge was made to replace it?

I doubt that. Nowhere, even in real life a bridge is torn to make another. Always the new one is constructed before tearing the old one.


Do you expect the people running Liberty City to be smart enough not to tear down an old bridge before making a new one? They throw the money down for a subway system with only four stops, design roads with no room to parallel park, etc. so logic clearly isn't their strong suit.
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Jeansowaty
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#17

Posted 08 March 2017 - 08:21 PM

 

I doubt that the Yakuza would be big at that time - there was almost no presence of them in early 1998 and they only become more common after weakening/removing the Forellis/Sindaccos.

Kazuki owned a Casino which was there before the game's events, so the Yakuza must have started somewhere, probably a few years before 1998. 
 

Actually, the Big Shot Casino was owned by the Sindaccos at first, when Toni wiped them off the map, then Kazuki came in and took it over, simple ;)


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#18

Posted 10 March 2017 - 01:46 AM

So if the Lift Bridge is recent in LCS, then it may have very well been on construction, maybe even nonexisting. I guess that means a whole another set of Ferries, with all the corruption that comes with that

And the fact that the Staunton Island ferry terminal had two docks, meaning the other might have had a different ferry go back in forth from Shoreside Vale and Staunton Island

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#19

Posted 11 March 2017 - 11:02 PM

Physically there may be other changes. The Sindacco and Leone casinos were likely non-existent or under construction. As you are designing this, you can take some liberties and replace some buildings with construction sites or otherwise. Same thing for the car models. They were most likely closer to the VCS/VC models than the LCS/III or even SA models. The BnG course may be nothing more than a grass patch. The Train may be less modern. The Subway could be under construction for part of the story. Upstate may or may not link to other places (Carcer City or otherwise), or maybe it'll just have a school, or an armory, or a military base. The airport may be smaller. The Police Departments of any city, or even the Hospitals, could be under construction
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#20

Posted 13 March 2017 - 12:00 PM

Important thing is the old subway, a part of which we have seen in GTA LCS during 'Bringing The House Down' mission.

Under the Fort Staunton it is possible to see rather large part.

 



Look from 3:05


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#21

Posted 25 March 2017 - 06:11 PM

You could do that there was another bridge, but that it was too old by 1998 and it fell down because of an earthquake from a nearby city (and the bridge was the only thing that fell down because it was really really old and unstable), but in 1987 it was still usable. As for Shoreside you could make a non-lift bridge with the excuse that ferries didn't pass there until the late 90s so that they had to tear it down by 1998 to build the lift bridge.

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#22

Posted 26 March 2017 - 02:46 AM

Important thing is the old subway, a part of which we have seen in GTA LCS during 'Bringing The House Down' mission.
Under the Fort Staunton it is possible to see rather large part.
 


Look from 3:05

It's possible that the old subway was largely functional before the Porter Tunnel was constructed.
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Atari-Dude
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#23

Posted 28 March 2017 - 07:07 PM

I wonder if the abandoned subway system is somehow connected to the abandoned "Harwood Train Yard" in Portland?


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#24

Posted 31 March 2017 - 07:53 AM

I wonder if the abandoned subway system is somehow connected to the abandoned "Harwood Train Yard" in Portland?

What Train Yard are you talking of? The Harwood Yard is for crushing Junk. There's no sign of any rails in there area. The abandoned station is/was connected to the Chinatown station maybe, through the rest of Subway networks around the Liberty.

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#25

Posted 22 August 2017 - 08:40 PM

After Sonny Forelli got pasted himself all over Florida, Forelli Crime Family would likely loose their influence and title of the strongest organization in the city. I guess it was the time when Leones made their move, probably with the backing of Sicilian Mafia. I guess it would lead to gangland slayings of few key members of Forelli Family by Leones, who, in fact, succesfully muscled onto their rackets after Sonny's murder.

Also 1987 storyline could open some details from the past of characters like Toni Cipriani or Joey Leone, who employed CJ in a car theft ring from 1987 to 1992.


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#26

Posted 24 August 2017 - 01:00 AM

 

I wonder if the abandoned subway system is somehow connected to the abandoned "Harwood Train Yard" in Portland?

What Train Yard are you talking of? The Harwood Yard is for crushing Junk. There's no sign of any rails in there area. The abandoned station is/was connected to the Chinatown station maybe, through the rest of Subway networks around the Liberty.

 

 

Never saw this next to 8-Ball's garage?

 

whWtCdG.jpg

 

Also I doubt it since flatbeds don't go on subways but it is a good theory, like those trains would need to be repaired somewhere and maybe they would've been repaired here? Who knows. Maybe the flatbeds are actually old subway cars that've been so cut up and disassembled that they resemble flatbeds, but that's a far out there theory.


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#27

Posted 24 August 2017 - 01:18 AM

I wonder if the abandoned subway system is somehow connected to the abandoned "Harwood Train Yard" in Portland?

What Train Yard are you talking of? The Harwood Yard is for crushing Junk. There's no sign of any rails in there area. The abandoned station is/was connected to the Chinatown station maybe, through the rest of Subway networks around the Liberty.

 
Never saw this next to 8-Ball's garage?
 
Also I doubt it since flatbeds don't go on subways but it is a good theory, like those trains would need to be repaired somewhere and maybe they would've been repaired here? Who knows. Maybe the flatbeds are actually old subway cars that've been so cut up and disassembled that they resemble flatbeds, but that's a far out there theory.

Couldn't put it together back then. Probably a good theory that the Darkel's tunnel was connected to docks and the areas where Supa Save was built (long back) and the trucks were somehow brought to Harwood for repairs or transporting stuff probably.

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#28

Posted 24 August 2017 - 09:01 PM Edited by guard3, 24 August 2017 - 09:04 PM.

Here's a little theory of mine. Let's go back in time:

 

f0FC2Hf.png

 

We're in (insert old date here). Portland Docks isn't anything special, but it features some cement-expanded areas for ship access, and then a few buildings for storage and management purposes. And to top it all, a railway network connects the different parts of the docks, for easy transportation of cargo from one sector, to the other. In order to save precious space of the port area, the flatbed terminal was located in Harwood, connected to the rest of the docks through a tunnel under Saint Mark's district.

 

As time goes on, since the docks become more advanced and more cargo ships unload to Liberty City, a big investment is on the works: expansion to the sea shore and more buildings built to incorporate a road network (expanding Trenton area. Roads would be more convenient to connect denser building space). The railway network became redundant, so the tracks were removed, the sea shore was expanded, Trenton featured new facilities (bus terminal, sawmill) and the Portland View area benefitted with new buildings to manage shipments. Harwood (and the flatbeds) has since been abandoned, as it didn't have any other special role in the first place.

 

The tunnel could be used as part of the road network of the city, so the tracks were removed, but construction never continued any further. How nice...

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