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RollsReus1959
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#91

Posted 08 May 2017 - 07:38 PM Edited by RollsReus1959, 08 May 2017 - 07:40 PM.

Looks like there was a huge protest today against the newly elected President of France.

 

We'll see what happens from here.

 

http://www.express.c...-Elysee-Protest

 

I am just a curious to find out more who this Macron guy is because nobody heard of him up until the election. 


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#92

Posted 08 May 2017 - 07:57 PM Edited by Uncle Sikee Atric, 08 May 2017 - 07:58 PM.

Looks like there was a huge protest today against the newly elected President of France.
 
We'll see what happens from here.
 
http://www.express.c...-Elysee-Protest
 
I am just a curious to find out more who this Macron guy is because nobody heard of him up until the election.

 
100 protestors isn't a huge protest.  The huge FEMEN protest against Le Pen last week was far larger.  (I will not say more as you'll be ogling the protestors from that march for weeks, supporting The Groper as you do.)
 
As for your lack of Macron knowledge, he's a former Hollande minister who started his own party to take a new political center line.  You can read all about it here.
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El Diablo
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#93

Posted 08 May 2017 - 09:32 PM Edited by El Diablo, 08 May 2017 - 09:33 PM.

nobody heard of him up until the election.

lol wut

 

literally millions of people knew who he was before the election.

just because you didn't know doesn't mean that "nobody" knew.

 

you sound like Donald Trump.

GOVERNMENT IS HARD WORK! WHO KNEW?

 

literally everyone knew :sigh:

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#94

Posted 08 May 2017 - 11:14 PM Edited by Street Mix, 09 May 2017 - 11:08 AM.

Looks like there was a huge protest today against the newly elected President of France.
 
We'll see what happens from here.

He will get impeached, that's for sure. Cause he's a leftist liberal who copes with people's will. And then Le Pen gets his seat and saves Soviet Republic of France from dirty infidel muslims.

 


RollsReus1959
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#95

Posted 08 May 2017 - 11:33 PM Edited by RollsReus1959, 08 May 2017 - 11:38 PM.

He is basically Trump then?

Rich White businessman with no political experience.

I'm not French but will see what he does for them.

P.S. Is there an Asia-Pacific political thread? I like to talk about their policies.

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#96

Posted 08 May 2017 - 11:35 PM

Speaking of Le Pen, she sure knows how to be carefree after a brutal landslide.

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#97

Posted 09 May 2017 - 01:01 AM

He is basically Trump then?

 

Rich White businessman with no political experience.

 

Can't you frigging read?

 

 

As for your lack of Macron knowledge, he's a former Hollande minister who started his own party to take a new political center line.  You can read all about it here.

 

Or for a summary: 

-Inspector of Finances at Inspectorate General of Finances (IGF)

-Deputy Secretary-General under Hollande in 2012

-Minister of Economy, Industry and Digital Affairs in 2014

President of France in 2017

 

He has more political experience than the entire Trump family tree combined.

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sivispacem
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#98

Posted 09 May 2017 - 05:54 AM

Rich White businessman with no political experience.


Do you suffer from some kind of affliction that renders you incapable of processing text? Or do you just enjoy the sound of your own voice as you batter away incoherently on topics you're evidently completely clueless about?
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RollsReus1959
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#99

Posted 09 May 2017 - 07:13 AM Edited by RollsReus1959, 09 May 2017 - 07:19 AM.

 

He is basically Trump then?
 
Rich White businessman with no political experience.

 
Can't you frigging read?
 

 
As for your lack of Macron knowledge, he's a former Hollande minister who started his own party to take a new political center line.  You can read all about it here.

 
Or for a summary: 
-Inspector of Finances at Inspectorate General of Finances (IGF)
-Deputy Secretary-General under Hollande in 2012
-Minister of Economy, Industry and Digital Affairs in 2014
President of France in 2017
 
He has more political experience than the entire Trump family tree combined.
 
 
English is actually my second language.  Do you have a problem with people that don't speak the language well?
 
I ask if there was Asia-Pacific political discussion from a few post ago and I was wondering what you thought about Japan's strict immigration policy?  I think it is very smart on their part.  In 2016, Japan rejected almost every applicant that tried to enter the country.  They only allowed 28 people and 2 of them ended up raped a woman.  2 out of 28 which is about 7 percent of what they bring in.  Whether that number consistently stays in a range, go up or go down is unknown.  It may drop or go up.
 
With that said....I think Eastern Asian countries policies towards immigration is very fair.
 
Source:
 
http://www.independe...d-a7718111.html
 
Gang rape
http://www.tokyorepo...-rape-of-woman/

Thank you for explaining Macron to me.

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#100

Posted 09 May 2017 - 07:30 AM

I ask if there was Asia-Pacific political discussion from a few post ago

You're welcome to make one.

They only allowed 28 people and 2 of them ended up raped a woman.  2 out of 28 which is about 7 percent of what they bring in.

What's your point here? Is it that Japan are bad at vetting immigrants? Or that immigrants are a dangerous? To me it sounds more like the former but you seem to present it as the latter, though in reality it's obviously neither given that it's a cherry picked example from an unworkable small sample size.

Also, according to the article you've posted, the two rapists were asylum seekers. That means they hadn't actually been granted leave to stay and therefore wouldn't comprise two of the 28 migrants that Japan permitted to settle. It might help if you developed an understanding of the terminology.
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RollsReus1959
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#101

Posted 06 July 2017 - 06:25 PM

I was amazed by the great people of Poland.  They are one of the few countries that got their stuff right.  Great to see the alliance with them. 

 

They are also pitching in that 2% towards NATO.


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#102

Posted 06 July 2017 - 06:38 PM

No G20 thread so:

Watching the protests via CNN and I have to give super extra credit to the one protester who was using a orange comfy chair as a shield. Fantastic.

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#103

Posted 06 July 2017 - 07:05 PM

 I was amazed by the great people of Poland.  They are one of the few countries that got their stuff right.  Great to see the alliance with them. 
 
They are also pitching in that 2% towards NATO.

So.. the geezer who makes sure to douse us with a bi-weekly dose of r/the_donald bootlicking hails the country with a far-right quasi-authoritarian government that openly attacks the free press and undermines the rule of law? I'm shocked, SHOCKED I say!

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#104

Posted 06 July 2017 - 07:22 PM

I was amazed by the great people of Poland.  They are one of the few countries that got their stuff right.  Great to see the alliance with them.

Yeah because cracking down on public protest, enforcing stringent restrictions on the media and arresting opposition politicians as foreign agents just sings "free and democratic state" doesn't it.

Mind you, it's basically the cryptofascist blueprint for Trump's perfect American so I can see why you're embracing it.
 

They are also pitching in that 2% towards NATO.

They have since, AFAIK, 2015, but not before then.
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#105

Posted 23 September 2017 - 09:11 PM Edited by Demoscat, 23 September 2017 - 09:21 PM.

 

The Basque independence movement has died out in recent years. Since 2000, their representation in local governments, both in Spain and France, have heavily declined. The Basque people just aren't interested in independence.

The Catalonia question is far more real, though, as Catalonia actually has a substantial part of the Spanish economy - unlike the Basque area - but where Spain can block Catalonian entry into the EU, the UK - being outside the EU - cannot block Scottish membership. Indeed, I wonder what the reaction from the UK would be, if the EU let Scotland in.

In Northern Ireland, they are talking about unification again, with the prospect of a hard border, whereas in Scotland, they are talking about creating a hard border between Scotland and England.

However, all this reporting on a hard border seems to miss the CTA, which has been in place since the 1910s. EU or no EU, I doubt that is going to change. Ireland and the UK are outside the Schengen area because of this. And I am certain Scotland would be allowed to get an opt-out as well, to remain in the CTA with the "UK" and Ireland.

I mean, Scotland won't be allowed to keep the pound, for obvious reasons, England simply wouldn't allow it. And Scotland would likely be required to use the Euro by the EU. It would therefore make sense for an independent Scotland to immediately start using Euros, rather than some transition period with Scottish pounds.

I am confident Scotland would be allowed into the EU after independence. But I don't know how quickly. But probably quicker than you'd think. It would be bad for the UK to attempt to block that.

PM May is also in a dangerous position right now. If she blocks Scotland's request for another independence referendum, she will heavily enforce the SNP in Scotland, it would be political gold for Nicola Sturgeon. If she accepts Scotland's request, she very likely risks losing Scotland and will likely upset members of her own party.

However, SNP can do little to get rid of May as it is. Even having all the Scottish MP seats, the Tories can still maintain absolute control of the chamber.

So while blocking the referendum is sure to create a lot of resentment in Scotland, it seems to me to be the option for the Prime Minister.

 

Basque Separatism was resolved both by taking care of ETA, and Giving the Autonomous government of the Basque Country more control of their region when it comes to Taxes and how to distribute money.

 

Catalan Separatism is going down, because for three reasons:

 

1. Catalan Separatist are not fighters. If they have to skip a day of work to go to a Separatist strike, they wont, because that's a day  your company won't pay you, and they prefer getting paid than fighting for their ideas. (That's why separatist strikes are NEVER on work days but rather on weekends or holidays)

 

2. Catalan Separatists are seeing how their politicians promise and promise, and things never happen. Also, a lot of them end up arrested for corruption scandals, which make Catalan people upset.

 

3. Separatists are wasting all their money ONLY for their separatist campaign making many sectors to collapse. For example, Pharmacies are fed up with the delay in payments by the Catalan government.

 

Hello :D

 

Freedoom for Catalonia is granted on this point. To many catalans are compromised with independence. We will play the Gandhi card first, but we are wiser than Mariano Rajoy and will do anything to win.

 

I am a PdeCAT follower, the catalan president's party leading the right wing on the independentist coalition, and I can assure you many of us are very determined to never come back under sovereign of Spain. We will not go on violence if we can because the Gandhi card is more powerfull. Catalan independentist already have the greater 3 hackers names in the world: Julian Assange, Snowden and the swedish founder for The Pirate Bay. 

 

Here some questions:

 

Do you know Rajoy doesn`t speak english at all?

Do you know Trump feels some simpathy for Julian Assange because in campaign he exposed Hillary Clinton?

 

I could continue making points, like:

+700 majors compromised with independence and didn't regret even with arrests,

The catalan police don't want to fight for Madrid against peaceful unarmed popullation. It's different to 15M, this population on the streets aren't punks, they have the catalan president and a majority in catalan pariiament voted to do this!

 

Thousands of independentist kids are now protesting peacefully with a smile on universities and streets, Will police attack minors and peaceful kids? None on europe would allow this. Shall I continue arguing?

 

The procés has absolutely everything planned, to many talented people planned each possibility for several years,

 

Catalonia has to many civil associations for independence to be stopped.  Like the AMI, Omnium, ANC (including on other countries), Mossos per la Independència (police), Arran and Endavant (CUP), JNC (PdeCAT youth organization), JERC (ERC youth organization), FC Barcelona.... really do you think an idiot like Rajoy and his party that only had 1 major in Catalonia could do anything?

 

Don't forget Merkel, the best ally on Europe for Rajoy will be severely weakened after elections. Hungary already said will accept Catalonia independence, and it's certain the small countries WANT to back Catalonia after declares independence but are awaiting independence to be told internationally. Denmark feels a lot of simpathy for catalans because they got refered by PdeCAT like a model for Catalonia. 

 

Spain never had a greater coward and imbecile on Madrid like Rajoy, everything helps to at the last moment, indecise catalans will side with independentism. 

 

I dont represent the majority of catalans, I am a far right independentist, with deep simpathies for Identitat Catalana while mostly independentism and catalan population are socially leftist wich is good to have more sympathies around the world because the Gandhi card has better press on human rights, this will be decisive, and thats why Catalonia will win independence.

 

Ironically, the peaceful catalan spirit is the perfect muscle to win freedoom at this stage of modern history.


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#106

Posted 24 September 2017 - 05:36 AM

(I am going to respond in this thread, but can a moderator move our posts to the European politics thread?)

No one is saying that Rajoy is a great Prime Minister, he definitely isn't, but that does not mean Catalonian independence is certain. Catalonia still have way too many issues if it were to break free of Spain that it doesn't realise.

Have you seen how difficult it is for the UK to detach itself from the EU? Now imagine doing that just within a sovereign state. That's a whole other can of beans, you don't want to open. Plus, Catalonian membership of the EU is hardly certain.

You make some unfounded predictions, like Merkel being weakened after the elections. Polls show Merkel will continue to be chancellor, and her re-election will probably cement her power internationally, not weakening her at all. But let's see tonight, how it turns out.

Hungary's support for Catalonia is more talk than action, as Hungary just likes to be a torn in the rest of the EU's eyes lately. And Denmark is not going to support Catalonian independence unless Spain is supportive. Indeed, if Madrid is supportive of Catalonian independence, watch the rest of Europe fall in line. But so far they are not, and therefore Europe isn't.

European countries with their own separatist movements will definitely discourage Catalonian independence. With the UK leaving the EU, a big opponent to an independent Catalonia is gone, but several remain. And several opponents remain that don't have separatists.

Why is the international reaction important? Because international recognition is paramount to an independent Catalonia, particularly if they want to remain in the EU (which I believe they do). New membership requires a unanimous vote from all existing member states and Hungary isn't exactly one with a lot of power within the EU. Indeed, thinking having Hungary on your side is a good thing is a big mistake. Having Hungary on your side will likely start your movement's argument internationally at a disadvantage.

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#107

Posted 27 September 2017 - 11:37 AM

Well, as I said everything goes fine. Merkel is on a weak position now because socialist want to be opposition, so this time: the greens of germany that supported Catalonia before/during campaign and the other new party to coalition with Merkel  are in ALDE eurogrup (same as PNV or PdeCAT) and will not back Rajoy.

 

Rajoy meeting with Trump wasn't a success, Trump didn't fear the catalans, he just exhibed 'personal opinions' and even did recognize catalan referendum and he said he did know the catalan problem to be there for centuries :D and this soft declaration about Catalonia did cost Spain the purchasing of 21 airships for 3,400 millions, expulsing north corea ambassador, and many more things in trade for nothing...

 

Also one day before Rajoy went to visit Trump, Rajoy aborted a previous concerted meeting with the actual European rotatory president: the prime estonian minister. And  as he aborted estonian meeting he declared: "The little countries counts nothing in Europe" hahahaha Estonians are like 1,5 millions populaton only, that's the best way to get them angry.

 

I dont see Spain to have the abiity to stop independence. Here in catalonia we are laughing a lot of the Looney Tunes army ship, the crazyness of spain ultras celebrating polices fromm all spain heading to Catalonia repeteadly shouting "A por ellos!" "Go get them!" 

 

Being reasoneable I think independence to be completed could last one or two years but that's all. Independence is here and anything Spain does in revenge will push Catalonia to be an european country faster.


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#108

Posted 27 September 2017 - 12:46 PM

Again, Prime Minister Rajoy is handling this issue terribly. In fact, I'd say Madrid has been dealing with the Catalonian question ridiculously since Franco's reign started. (And possibly before, hence the greater autonomy granted to Catalonia under the Second Spanish Republic.)

In fact, if I was in control in Madrid, I'd up the Catalonians and call for a national referendum on Catalonian independence, since it requires a change to the constitution. And there is no way a majority of Spaniards votes for an independent Catalonia.

But the powers that be rises above Rajoy and Madrid themselves. And even in Catalonia, the polling data suggests that even if a recognised referendum were held, the outcome isn't certain. The two sides are at a dead heat.

As for the Greens and FDP in Germany, this is probably an issue they will have to swallow to be coalition partners, because Catalonian independence is not that important to them. Just because the Greens have been supportive of Catalonia in the past, doesn't mean they'll actually come out fighting for them when push comes to shove. You fail to answer how important it is to them. And the issue is really only important in Spain.

And if it is important outside Spain, it's opposition to the issue. I am sure Merkel's CDU is more against Catalonia independence than the Greens are supportive of it. Plus, the Greens have never explicitly said they are for independence, but rather that they are supportive of their causes. This shows their actual lack of interest in pressing this issue.

Suppose an independence declaration was made, how likely do you think the rest of Europe would recognise it? Particularly considering that Spain would be opposing? You might call it the height of hypocrisy since Western Europe supported Kosovo's independence despite Serbia's objection. But Kosovo was actually under military protection and Serbia could not in practical terms intervene.

That being said, Kosovo is still somewhat in limbo, and things certainly aren't progressing as fast as the locals would have hoped.

Spain won't recognise a peaceful independence declaration, so any declaration would have to immediate, which cause a huge amount of chaos as all sorts of ties are immediately severed. Most of which, even I don't know what's gonna be.

Assuming that Catalonia declares independence, and the declaration takes effect immediately. Spain, and the rest of Europe, will refuse to recognise Catalonia. But in this scenario de facto recognises it by not intervening, as to not risk a military conflict. But they also cuts all ties with the region. Some negotiations may begin in secret, but officially Spain refuses to recognise them.

Spain may still provide some humanitarian essentials, like water, electricity, etc., whatever Catalonia needs that would otherwise be lost without the supply from Spain. (I actually don't know what Catalonia imports from the rest of Spain on a daily basis.) But everything else will be cut.

You'd then seen a huge exodus of people leaving Catalonia, because job opportunities will plummet. The unstable situation will force many corporations to relocate to other parts of Spain or maybe other parts of the EU. Barcelona will - in terms of a financial powerhouse internationally - be set back 20-50 years. It's hard to say how big the damage will be, but it will be substantial. And every one in Catalonia will feel the downturn in their personal finances.

Catalonia needs Spain to be on board for the independence to work out, and without Spain in support, there will be no graceful move to independence for Catalonia. Spain can 'stop' Catalonia independence by simply refusing to recognise it. It won't be long before Catalonians start to reconsider their decision.

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#109

Posted 27 September 2017 - 05:09 PM

You don't seem to understand Europe, not just the Euro, is conformed by more than 25 countries with lesser population than Catalonia. Spain already did promises to some of them to block a potential recognization of Catalonia independence. But this is not going to work forever. Spain even couldn't force Trump to say "We will not recognize Catalonia" when you are terible on international diplomacy and Catalan embassies do very well, you end with countries awaiting the right moment to back the free Catalonia, sooner or later.

 

Catalonia is geographically so well situated to be ignored or blocked. If Spain doesn't recognize independence, catalonia will still in europe de facto and will not pay its part of spain duties, if spain recognizes but blocks commerce and europe to catalonia, catalan policies will be to to turn Catalonia a financial paradise with the army collaboration of Russia/China.  

 

Believe it or not, Catalonia will not regret pursuing independence even if gets repression after repression because CAT are innate strategyst leading the cause and will do anything to not become a poor region. Catalan diplomacy is enoughly skilled to accumulate supports from the left, and europesceptics and regionalist of europe.

 

While outside of Europe if necessary CAT could obtain defense doing treaties with higuer powers like Israel. PdeCAT has much stronger links than Spain with Israel.

 

Also CAT has more sympathies from Russia, China and muslim countries because on their press they repeteadly did publish about it, and they know how open are catalan to their foreigner cultures. The renowned catalan peaceful spirit will payback and give worldwide good reputation to whatever country that protects Catalonia from being ignored or repressed by Spain and abandoned by EU. 

 

Also in this case of repression and abandoning from EU, will not pay debt, and will leave all the debt to their original owner, the kingdom of spain :D

 

You have no idea how bitchy can CAT be if forced to. Being peaceful and greedy doesn't mean CAT will be a sheep. Anyways I dont think Europe blocks Catalonia to join EU, because they know this would force the arrival of dangerous (for EU) actors to Catalonia. 

 

The opposition of Europe to catalan independence will not last if catalans revolt massively and peacefully. Gandhi did it on a distant place, but CAT is a lot more important than India to european press. And if this fails, others actors from outside Europe will intervene.


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#110

Posted 27 September 2017 - 07:24 PM

Catalonia is geographically so well situated to be ignored or blocked. If Spain doesn't recognize independence, catalonia will still in europe de facto


With regards to the EU specifically, this is basically the argument that the Scottish independence lot have been making. I don't see any reason why it would be fundamentally different from the response they got from the wider EU, which could fundamentally be boiled down to "if you secede or declare independence you have to go through the whole application process again".

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#111

Posted 27 September 2017 - 07:24 PM

I am not sure I approve of a movement who threatens to destabilise the continent in order to get what they want.

And I don't think the rest of Europe will either. China, Russia and Israel need Europe more than they need Catalonia.

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#112

Posted 27 September 2017 - 11:00 PM Edited by Demoscat, 28 September 2017 - 01:23 AM.

Catalonia has been threatened for years by Spain if you dont feel solidarity, its only your fault to be hearthless. Catalonia wants independence because is constantly threatened on broken promises of investments from spain, debt from corruption from all the regions of spain illegally paid by placing debt on catalans, giving little part of our own money back to Catalonia and in the form of CREDITS! Catalonia is the region in Spain with more debt by malevolent decissions made from Madrid. Catalonia culture is also theatened with corrupted tribunals of spains changing the rules of the game to devaluate catalan language, etc..

 

An example: a year ago the minister of security and internal affaires of Spain was caught on a voice record saying with a kind of evil gratefullness:

"Les hemos destrozado su sistema sanitario" "We had destroyed their (catalan) public healthcare" .  Also one or two years ago the minister of education said "Tenemos que españolizar a los niños catalanes" "We must  spanishation (or spanishate) the catalan kids".

 

Catalonia isn't destroyed yet,  is optimistic and hopes to survive and even be the wealthy nation that catalans work hard for.

 

Castile was centralized uniformed while Crown of Aragon was very different: a group of kingdoms and the principality of Catalonia, all confederated on a similar way than Europe today. Catalonia was conquered on 1714 and its parliament  and confederal selfdetermination abolished. Colonies and conquered territories have the right to selfdetermination based on international law.

 

Two of the three independentist parties leading the independentist coalition of Catalonia are very pro european, The third, the extreme left CUP is against staying in Europe but will accept the vote of catalans.

 

I am not representative of catalan society because i am more right that the catalan independentist right wing. I would ally Israel or anything to have the power to kill the menacing spanish fascist. But it's just my particular sentiment, I will do nothing, I am on my own peaceful business like every catalan citizen. 

 

I am proud and happy of catalan society being this much peaceful, pro european, and  have good press and diplomacy. I dont feel this way but I know the Gandhi attittude is the stronger muscle for a little nation on the west of Europe.

 

Catalonia in Spain itself have been widely known to be more european and socially tolerant with foreigners than the rest of regions, this weakens the criticize of catalan nationalism being exclusivist or opressive. Spain never had an elected catalan-origin president but Catalonia yes, Catalonia had an andalusian-origin president that even didn't speak decently our language. Catalonia is warm and ethical. Spain State is not. Has to much hate for Catalonia much years before the first massively peaceful rallies for independence at the Diada.

 

Press like Aljazeera or from the left from Europe dares at Catalonia gradually with more simpathy than expected. They are informed and know catalans are  very pro european and have solidarity with everyone by default. Thats why I don't think Europe will abandon CAT forever at the dirty hands of Spain.

 

Kenneth Rogoff, former chief economist at the IMF "Catalonia alone would be one of the richest countries in the world".  Without Europe aplicance.

 

Or Read this article on Europe and Catalonia

https://www.creditwr...-secession.html


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#113

Posted 28 September 2017 - 04:35 AM

No one is denying that Catalonia is rich. Neither is anyone denying Madrid hasn't been dealing with the situation probably. But independence is not the answer, particularly not in this modern integrated society that we have. If Spain was collapsing/destabilising we could consider it, but that's not actually happening.

If Kenneth Rogoff thinks Catalonia would be rich without the rest of the EU, then he is no economist, so I won't believe he actually said that. To maintain its strong finance section, Catalonia would need to maintain good relations with Spain and the EU. I believe Rogoff is speaking of a situation where Catalonia left on good terms with Spain and was allowed to join the EU.

Also, I don't think the EU will prevent Catalonia membership forever, but while Catalonia is waiting for that, it will slowly see its economical situation shrink and/or fall behind of that of the rest of Europe.

Honestly, considering Madrid's handling of the situation, I don't know what options Catalonia actually has. I fully understand why they are pursuing independence, but you and other separatists are also suffering from confirmation bias. If independence is what you want, accept now that it will a rough road ahead the next - at least - twenty years.

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#114

Posted 28 September 2017 - 05:28 AM Edited by Demoscat, 28 September 2017 - 05:30 AM.

Independence will be done in 1 or 2 years, but will be a rough road for 2 or 4 years max.  Today's modern societies are addicted to information, and Europe will not leave Catalonia and Spain on a second civil war. I think Germany will guide the terms of independence. Catalonia will pay 24% spain debt, plus will maintain giving a bill to poor regions of Spain for some years of transition-adaptation, and Catalonia in exchange for that will gain fully access to european membership since the start of the agreement.

 

Catalans are easy to pact with. It's just I don't see Catalonia having faith never again to be ruled by Spain. I know Spain fascism and I envision that catalans would accept paying a spanish bill for some years but only independence could happen and be accepted by Catalonia on a future agreement.


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#115

Posted 28 September 2017 - 06:14 AM

 

Independence will be done in 1 or 2 years, but will be a rough road for 2 or 4 years max. 

 

On what basis are you making such optimistic estimates? I mean, look at Brexit. Far simpler than an independence situation, and it's been a year with virtually no progress. 

 

 

 Catalonia in exchange for that will gain fully access to european membership since the start of the agreement.

 

And anger Spain? Other countries who gained independence were not immediately accepted. Even Scotland would have to negotiate entrance to EU if it gets its independence. Why would Catalonia be different?

 

 

 

Catalans are easy to pact with

 

Great, other European nations really aren't. Neither is Spain. Ideally, it would be as simple as you say.

But reality has shown us how complicated these things are, and how difficult it will be to get it done.

 

All you're talking about is "Catalonia will pay off Spain, and everyone will be happy!", but monetary reparation is the least of the concerns. What about companies? What about trade deals? What about contracts and negotiations? Laws? What happens to Catalans living elsewhere in Spain while the process is happening? What happens to Spanish citizens living in Catalonia while the process happens? What happens to La Liga? Will sponsors accept Barcelona simply leaving and forming its own thing, or would they be allowed in on a special basis? And this is just the top of the can of worms.

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Demoscat
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#116

Posted 29 September 2017 - 06:26 AM Edited by Demoscat, 29 September 2017 - 06:40 AM.

 

 

Independence will be done in 1 or 2 years, but will be a rough road for 2 or 4 years max. 

 

On what basis are you making such optimistic estimates? I mean, look at Brexit. Far simpler than an independence situation, and it's been a year with virtually no progress. 

 

 

 Catalonia in exchange for that will gain fully access to european membership since the start of the agreement.

 

And anger Spain? Other countries who gained independence were not immediately accepted. Even Scotland would have to negotiate entrance to EU if it gets its independence. Why would Catalonia be different?

 

 

 

Catalans are easy to pact with

 

Great, other European nations really aren't. Neither is Spain. Ideally, it would be as simple as you say.

But reality has shown us how complicated these things are, and how difficult it will be to get it done.

 

All you're talking about is "Catalonia will pay off Spain, and everyone will be happy!", but monetary reparation is the least of the concerns. What about companies? What about trade deals? What about contracts and negotiations? Laws? What happens to Catalans living elsewhere in Spain while the process is happening? What happens to Spanish citizens living in Catalonia while the process happens? What happens to La Liga? Will sponsors accept Barcelona simply leaving and forming its own thing, or would they be allowed in on a special basis? And this is just the top of the can of worms.

 

Brexit is the opposite as they want to leave Europe, and a contry wanting to break with Europe weakens Europe. it's not the same. Catalans are already europeans and want to stay in Europe and leave Spain. It's very different. Germany did not need for a reapplicance to enter Europe after the Fall of of Berlin Wall, and reunification of East and West, and germany even changed and refounded its country name.

 

Others countries got independence yes, but their inhabitants weren't europeans citizen previously, Catalonia is the first case. If in the germany case european citizenship can be extended to a reunited and refounded nation, also european citizenship can be inherited for a refoundation of an european country on two countries, wich population already had european citizenship.

 

Spain must adapt to democracy. If Spain childish anger blocks our EU membership, we will not accept any part of Spanish debt, its internationally signed at Kingdom of Spain name, and a new country can start from zero, specially if its forced to start from zero like you insinuate, then all spanish debt will be for Spain in this case.

 

Catalans are easy to pact with, and if EU boicots Catalonia to please Spain, since the first moment Catalonia has everything planned and will find support on new international actors, like Latinamerica, China, Rusia, Israel, USA... really, catalans are very good and easy to pact with and this opens new doors. If Catalonia is boycottd, will become a tax finance paradise fast, with the support of some muslim countries, Russia, China and Israel.

 

Catalonia is very pro-european but if we aren't welcomed we aren't stupid.


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#117

Posted 29 September 2017 - 06:40 AM Edited by Svip, 29 September 2017 - 06:42 AM.

The comparison to German Re-unification makes no sense, as there was talk of two countries unifying. Also, at the time, the European Union hadn't been created yet, and it was still the EEC, making it less difficult to make big changes internally in member states. A proper comparison would be if Spain and Andorra decided to unify (for whatever reason), and Andorra would suddenly enter the EU as a part of Spain.

The comparison with Brexit is more apt, because it is about a jurisdiction leaving a larger jurisdiction of which it is a part. In Brext, it is the UK leaving the EU, here we are talking about Catalonia leaving Spain.

Additionally, you also seem to ignore all of Tchuck's questions (which I'll confess are better than the questions I've come up with). You act as if this is Spain's and the EU's problem, but it will mostly be Catalonia's problem.

Being a sovereign state means that if everyone else ignores your wishes, it all becomes your own problems. And I am not even sure a Catalonian government would agree on who to pursue partnership with.

I am sure Russia would welcome Catalonian independence, because Putin would wish nothing more than de-stabilising and dismantling the EU. But Israel, China or Latin America?

Nah, they need the rest of the EU more than they need Catalonia, and Spain in particular will push for a hard stance against countries appeasing Catalonia. And the rest of the EU is likely to follow suit. The EU can and will isolate Catalonia internationally. Israel, China and Latin America have little interest in upsetting the EU.
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#118

Posted 29 September 2017 - 07:09 AM Edited by Demoscat, 29 September 2017 - 07:22 AM.

HAHAHA. People from other worlwide countries as each day passes are getting documentaries and information on historic facts and refreshing what Franco was and still is in Spain.

 

We are not at dark ages and castile empire era. The third spanish politic party and the Basques are AGAINST repressing and making suffer catalan independentist. Half of the second spanish party, the Socialist are against repressing Catalonia population as a whole.

 

Barcelona FC spreads independentist information and sympathies for independence outside of Spain. BARCELONA FC is not worried, will offer to continue to play with Spain, if its rejected will play elsewhere: France, England or at the worst case Andorra. Actually Spain has three catalan football clubs.

 

Catalonia is one of the most visited by tourist, they google how catalans are, they know we aren't agressive, and they get informed on what spain did and still do under Franco and its fascism influence. It's easy to side with catalans after being a little informed. The free speech organizations like Wikileaks and famed hackers are siding with catalans. The marketing on foreigner TVs and press by the catalan side is also very well done.Spain president even doesn¡t speak well spanish, it's common to cause laughs because his nonsensical phrases. Catalan president speaks 5 languages fluently. And sympathies for catalan independence are very welcomed by the press and population from half of the small countries of europe because they can ident themselves of being opressed or menaced by larguer countries on history.

 

The more repression and future boycotts catalonia suffers, the more palestine feeling will be spread about us. Europe will not tolerate, misstreating Catalonia is a greater threat to Europe than the split of Spain. 

 

Catalonia has everything planned since much years ago. All the supposition cases are covered by independentist Think-tanks of ERC, PdeCAT, and international professionals of economics, diplomacy and lawmakers. Spain is different, with its antique Franco's elites and always bad organized, have 0 chance of stopping independence and a wealthy future for Catalonia.


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#119

Posted 29 September 2017 - 07:28 AM Edited by Svip, 29 September 2017 - 07:38 AM.

Again, I don't think anyone in here is suggesting that Spain can effectively prevent Catalonia independence,[1] but they - along with the rest of EU and the world - can effectively (and probably will) prevent a successful independence. That is, a separation of Spain without a prolonged period of downturn and hardship for Catalonians.

It's also easy to sit inside Catalonia and think a large portion of the rest of the world is sympathetic. But in reality, while there are sympathetic voices, they are in the vast minority and most of them don't care enough about Catalonia to actively do something when push comes to shove.

The fact that Catalonia has the largest percentage of tourists in Spain doesn't make a damn difference. Hell, if independence happens, and it throws getting to Catalonia into chaos (Will Catalonia be part of EASA? Will flights be permitted to cross Spanish airspace into Catalonia? Will France allow it? Airlines have deals with Spain, not Catalonia, how will they arrange flights to Catalonia immediately? etc.), the immediately reaction from tourists would be irritation at the Catalonia independence, because it is disrupting their holiday plans. It will hardly be sympathetic.

[1] That is, without the threat or use of force.
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#120

Posted 29 September 2017 - 07:39 AM

That's not how any of this works, though. You keep saying stuff as if it was all very simple: it very much isn't nearly as simple as you make it out to be, nor is Catalonia as important for Europe as you may think it is.
Since I think my questions are relevant, and you have simply refused to answer them, I'll state them again:
 

 

And anger Spain? Other countries who gained independence were not immediately accepted. Even Scotland would have to negotiate entrance to EU if it gets its independence. Why would Catalonia be different?

 

 

What about companies? What about trade deals? What about contracts and negotiations? Laws? What happens to Catalans living elsewhere in Spain while the process is happening? What happens to Spanish citizens living in Catalonia while the process happens? What happens to La Liga? Will sponsors accept Barcelona simply leaving and forming its own thing, or would they be allowed in on a special basis? And this is just the top of the can of worms.

 

 
Now as for the rest of the irrelevant stuff you said:
 

 

Catalonia is one of the most visited by tourist, they google how catalans are, they know we aren't agressive, and they get informed on what spain did and still do under Franco and its fascism influence. It's easy to side with catalans after being a little informed. The marketing on the catalan side is also very well done. And sympathies for catalan independence are very welcomed by the press and population from half of the small countries of europe.

 

 
People and tourists don't get to decide anything, though; governments and nations do. It doesn't matter if Catalans aren't aggressive, are very friendly, were oppresed by Franco 60 years ago, are treated badly by Spain etc etc. None of that matters, because people also have their own problems at home. Not to mention, since Europe is focused on unity, any news regarding the independence will be filtered through independence-unfriendly filters. I mean, it's a given. Unless you get everyone to go and make up their own minds (no nation can do this), they'll know about Catalan largely what their countries want to know. That's a fact. 
 
Just like most of EU would side with Spain, as would China, Latin America, US, Middle East. So all of those nations would simply portray the independence as bad, or give very little coverage to it, as they've done with the problems in Kosovo and other nations post-intervention. This is all fact that you are ignoring.
 

 

The more repression and future boycotts catalonia suffers, the more palestine feeling will be spread about us. Europe will not tolerate, misstreating Catalonia is a greater threat to Europe than the split of Spain. 

 

Europe will tolerate whatever it has to tolerate in the name of unity and stability. They've tolerated wars in the Balkans before up until it was better to intervene. They will do the same thing with Catalonia. As Svip put it, even if independence is granted, which would take many years to happen due to all aforementioned reasons, it will be on Europe's terms. And they will be harsh with Catalonia. And it is no threat to Europe, as Catalonia is basically one big famous city surrounded by other smaller villages.
 

 

Catalonia has everything planned since much years ago. All the supposition cases are covered by independentist Think-tanks of ERC, PdeCAT, and international professionals of economics, diplomacy and lawmakers. Spain is different, with its antique Franco's elites and always bad organized, have 0 chance of stopping independence and a wealthy future for Catalonia.

 

Have they now? How is the industry of Catalonia going to cope with having to manufacture pretty much everything by itself until it gets deals in places with an unfriendly Europe and neighbour Spain? How will business be handled if they are currently owned by Spanish citizens? Will Catalonia simply nationalize everything? Or buy off the Spanish? How will all the bureaucracy be handled? And more, what will happen in the inbetween years? Independence wouldn't be something that would happen in a day, a week, a month, or even a year. It would take several years to get everything done properly. What happens to citizens of both countries until then? What happens to the EU? If they simply admit Catalonia in, they'll have to do the same for other nations as well, as they were also granted independence, with the support of EU countries no less.

 

And more importantly, what happens if it all goes wrong? What are the plans in case a separation results in the economy of Catalonia breaking down, in tourists no longer visiting thanks to instability, if the industry can't compete with others, what happens then?

 





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