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Was Obama a good president?

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Leftist Bastard
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#331

Posted 13 May 2017 - 06:44 AM

It always fascinates me how general lack of empathy and pragmatism to a fault is a point of pride to certain conservative folk. It's like middle school all over again only these people potentially chart a course for the whole country.

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The Yokel
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#332

Posted 13 May 2017 - 07:22 AM

It always fascinates me how general lack of empathy and pragmatism to a fault is a point of pride to certain conservative folk. It's like middle school all over again only these people potentially chart a course for the whole country.

It's called being a sociopath.

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#333

Posted 13 May 2017 - 08:24 AM Edited by Svip, 13 May 2017 - 08:25 AM.

When you are blinded by propaganda, it's easy to see things that way and only that way.

No, what is more curious, is why they bother arguing? I mean, do they honestly believe that they could convince someone to their point of view? Or do they yearn for those moments of slight victories in debates, where their opponents give slightly in?

But this thread is about President Obama. We just recently discussed his foreign policy and anti-gun policies. Both were - to put it bluntly - somewhat fruitless for the previous President. His attempts at resetting relations with Russia failed, and given the US' entanglement in Afghanistan and Iraq, he was ill-prepared to handle Syria, and made blunders in his public statements towards those affairs.

His anti-gun policies yielded nothing. There were quite a few mass shooting incidents during his Presidency, and every time he tried to get the ball rolling, but Congress would not budge.

However, neither of those two points makes President Obama a candidate for worst US president ever. His anti-gun policies were, after all, inconsequential (hell, during his Presidency, gun laws around the country got more relaxed in general). And his foreign policy, while not a success, did not get the US entangled in conflicts abroad to leave for the next administration to handle. And no, Syria doesn't count. You can argue that indirectly the US started it, but then that wouldn't be under the Obama administration either.

On his more positive aspects were his economical policies. President Obama understood the proper relation between government and corporations. During good times, the government should save money and repay its debts. During bad times, the government can then spend its saved money to help out the fledging industries to make things less miserable for the people at large.

You may consider the bailing out to be an inaccurate approach in a free marked economy. But truth be told, with all the tax code loopholes for corporations, we don't really have a free marked economy anyway. Or rather, not a perfect one at that. So the government stepping in is right in line with this.

This is also what bothered me about the counter European approach, which was austerity. Indeed, the European approach did not work as well as the US approach. The US economy got faster back to normal than its European counterparts, and parts of Europe are still suffering from these policies.

President Obama's stance on civil rights, drugs, law enforcement, etc. were also progresses in the right direction. Most of which have been rolled back under the new administration. Particularly on drug enforcement, the US has seen a major shift backwards, because AG Sessions just don't like 'em.

But someone in this thread countered one's suggestion that President Obama was the worst US President ever with a picture of President George W. Bush. However, even Bush isn't the worst US President.

Indeed, looking through history, there are better candidates (and that's ignoring President Trump). Buchanan, Johnson and Harding are far better candidates for 'worst US President'. It's not without reason that Buchanan and Johnson often compete for that position among US historians. Buchanan, for so blatantly missing the start of the civil war, and Johnson for so blatantly mishandling the aftermath of the civil war.

Which also serves to counter another argument against Obama I keep hearing; Obama was a bad President, because Trump is successor. By that logic, Lincoln should be the worst US President ever, as he was juxtapositioned by both Buchanan and Johnson.

But I think President Obama is in the top twenty, particularly for his handling of the financial crisis. Even if there were blunders, it was ultimately good for US citizens. The ACA, while a worthwhile goal, was terribly implemented, but primarily due to concessions made to Republicans.

But President Trump said it himself, the Australians have better healthcare, because they have a single payer system. (Well, he left the clarifier out, but that's why.)
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#334

Posted 13 May 2017 - 06:49 PM Edited by Eutyphro, 13 May 2017 - 06:49 PM.

It always fascinates me how general lack of empathy and pragmatism to a fault is a point of pride to certain conservative folk. It's like middle school all over again only these people potentially chart a course for the whole country.

Neither empathy nor pragmatism are absolute ethical principles though. Too much empathy for those who struggle can be marginalizing to the individual. And 'pragmatism' can lose track of important principles and values.


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#335

Posted 15 May 2017 - 05:55 PM Edited by thatstupidbug, 15 May 2017 - 05:56 PM.

The only perspective I can add about obama, as a "foreigner", it's the influx in media.

 

It has always baffled me how pretty much every president in the groening/seth mcfarlane cartoons were either forgettable or pretty much bad person (nixon, clinton, Bush sr and jr)...EXCEPT OBAMA!

 

He was pretty much flawless, except for one or two friendly jabs

 

FG810STILL3A.jpg

 

2aps06_696_STILL_0044.jpg

 

2008134.jpg

 

and michelle too was an inspirational, strong woman

 

michelleOsimpsons_1601091c.jpg

 

 

I'm not judging if it's a true or false depiction of Obama... just that's weird that almost EVERY president has been derided one way or another (even when still in charge), except him...

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#336

Posted 17 May 2017 - 12:43 AM

yeah it's pretty funny, with everything that's going on right now, how much people already miss Obama and how much better George WBush looks after all these years. the Trump trainwreck sort of exonerates all the bullsh/t that people used to say about Obama and Bush. called em' the antichrist. call em' Hitler. called em' dictators. said they were trampling on the Constitution. attacks that were used by both Democrats and Republicans. but now we actually have a president who is as close to being impeached or convicted as anyone since Nixon. suddenly everyone can take a step back and examine other politicians in proper context.

 

people passionately hated Bush.

they passionately hated Obama.

 

we can point to things that they did rightly or wrongly, and find a lot to agree on. Bush was simpleton but he could've been a lot worse. Obama was cool but he could've been a lot more effective. fortunately, the one thing that nobody had to worry about was basic competency or trust. we could at least trust Bush and Obama (and Nixon, for that matter) to be intelligent and sympathetic human beings. we cannot trust that our new president is intelligent or competent or empathetic or even patriotic. it's just amazing what can happen in 6 months. absolutely amazing. makes the former presidents look better and better every day.

 

I miss these folks.

VzbNE9n.jpg

 

and this BAMF

mklYh0n.jpg

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#337

Posted 17 May 2017 - 08:04 AM Edited by The Yokel, 17 May 2017 - 08:05 AM.

I want Joe Biden to run in 2020. And I want Obama to be his VP. Best duo ever! They should have their own sitcom!

 

Well not really. I still prefer Sanders. But Biden would be my second choice. If I had any say in the matter lol.

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#338

Posted 17 May 2017 - 08:41 AM

Obama cannot be VP.

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#339

Posted 17 May 2017 - 12:19 PM

Obama cannot be VP.

He can if it's a sitcom.

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#340

Posted 24 May 2017 - 02:28 PM

Way better than Dickhead McGee in the office right now. He's f*cking everything up with the trade which affects me because I'm on the other side of the deal.

F*ck you Trump. Grow up.

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#341

Posted 25 June 2017 - 04:43 PM

I think he had good intentions but is essentially a hypocrit.


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#342

Posted 06 July 2017 - 06:49 PM

How much would you kill for Uncle Joe to be our president now?



2020 would be nice. Not sure I'd wish the job on him though. He's had a challenging life already.
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#343

Posted 08 July 2017 - 06:50 AM

How much would you kill for Uncle Joe to be our president now?

trip confirmed as Stalinist. 

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#344

Posted 08 July 2017 - 08:25 AM

How much would you kill for Uncle Joe to be our president now?



2020 would be nice. Not sure I'd wish the job on him though. He's had a challenging life already.

That challenging life that he's had is exactly why I'd like to see him run. Being a good guy is obviously a good thing, but being a good guy with a lot of tragic experience in life might be even better. I think the US would benefit from a more empathetic president. The current one is a sociopath without a clue and it's not going so well.

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#345

Posted 13 July 2017 - 03:17 AM

Well, civil servant is one of the professions that attracts sociopaths the most, along with lawyers and CEOs ...


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#346

Posted 18 July 2017 - 08:25 AM

I want Joe Biden to run in 2020. And I want Obama to be his VP. Best duo ever! They should have their own sitcom!

 

Well not really. I still prefer Sanders. But Biden would be my second choice. If I had any say in the matter lol.

these two are terrible as hell


Obama was a horrible one, the debts he left are far from 10 TRILLION DOLLARS, he got the government noses into a lot of bussines moreover tried to mess up 2nd ammendment in states like Texas, from far I know and read, Trump is doing way better than him


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#347

Posted 18 July 2017 - 09:20 AM

the debts he left are far from 10 TRILLION DOLLARS

It's actually closer to $20tn with all factors included, but the figure that's really important is not the outright debt but debt as a percentage of GDP. That's currently high (circa 76% excluding intragovernmental holdings), but not exceptional- it was much higher between, say, 1945 and 1950. And the projections are for it to hit over 80% by 2020.

The interesting fact here is that the policies championed by the Trump administration are going to worsen the issue, not improve it. Large scale infrastructure spending to try and pull dying industries out of the downward spiral, combined with cuts in taxation for higher earners and cripplingly expensive vanity projects like the Mexico wall are likely to accelerate the growth in national debt, not arrest it.

he got the government noses into a lot of bussines

In what respect? Moreover, why is this a bad thing?

tried to mess up 2nd ammendment in states like Texas

Eh? This doesn't even make sense.
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#348

Posted 18 July 2017 - 09:38 AM

these two are terrible as hell

Nope.
 

the debts he left are far from 10 TRILLION DOLLARS

Ya sure you're not talking about Bush (a Republican, btw)?

moreover tried to mess up 2nd ammendment in states like Texas,

Restricting access of Arms and/or defining where one should be able to bring their weapon with them or not =/= anti-2nd Amendment.
 

 from far I know and read, Trump is doing way better than him

Drumpf? Better than Obama?

obama-laughing-800x430.jpg

 

A cat is better than that orange f*cktard.

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#349

Posted 19 July 2017 - 08:41 PM Edited by Waifus_2, 19 July 2017 - 08:47 PM.

did someone told it was under Bush administration? if you look since obama took administration the debt higky increased since he screwed up and after 2008 crisis he gave more power to FED, and then, the mess was done, obama was bad to internal economy of USA
otherwise Trump manage to get the Inflation on the goal, so doing well in the economic for now is important and bgot more jobs to people in USA

restricting is the opposite of the 2nd amendment, who can say what someone should have a gun or not? if he or she want to have an AR-15 or an Colt come from his wishes to selfdefense

and no, "a cat is better than orange f*ucktard" is not an argument

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#350

Posted 19 July 2017 - 08:54 PM

You do realise that the budget is technically written by Congress and the President has to sign it, yes? So in reality, Congress doesn't care about the deficit, particularly not after former Vice President Dick Cheney declared that the deficit didn't matter. There are a few fiscal conservatives left in Congress, but they don't have much of a say anyway. Republicans just get some moderate Democrats on board and keep the budget big and unwieldy.

A story that got lost in all the ACA repeal failure was the introduction of a proposed budget, which, while doesn't increase the deficit, doesn't decrease it either.

The national debt increasing steadily under President Obama's watch can be attributed to two things: A terrible economy (see 2008 financial crisis) and opposition in Congress.

And you ask who can say what sort of gun one should have? Well, the government. That same government that says what sort of cars can drive on the roads legally. Plus a lot of the restrictions on guns are done on a state level. Additionally, a vast majority of Americans approve of background checks for gun purchases or restrictions on certain types of weapons. I don't really see the need for an AR-15 in a private home, unless they are expecting to be attacked by zombies or church rebels or some such.

But while President Obama was in office, gun control laws became a lot more relaxed across the board.

Plus the question is 'was Obama a good president?', which becomes ridiculous if you rate based on your own political views. I rate it in terms of how much he managed to accomplished based on his own agenda, how he tried to strived to be a unifying figure in US politics, how he worked with Congress, how he appeared internationally and worked diplomatically, and so forth. Not whether I actually agreed with his policies or agendas, because then the question becomes too easy and without any substance.
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#351

Posted 19 July 2017 - 08:55 PM

restricting is the opposite of the 2nd amendment, who can say what someone should have a gun or not? if he or she want to have an AR-15 or an Colt come from his wishes to selfdefense

The government and the people... we made the document and we can change it.


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#352

Posted 19 July 2017 - 09:13 PM

why are we arguing the merits of American presidents with a guy who can't even speak English or spell?

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#353

Posted 20 July 2017 - 03:55 AM

why are we arguing the merits of American presidents with a guy who can't even speak English or spell?

I was in my phone and I couldn't write well plus my keyboard is a cr*p(I don't like typewriting on the phone, but I am at the compute now, and your argument it was an Ad Hominem, stop)


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#354

Posted 20 July 2017 - 04:00 AM Edited by Waifus_2, 20 July 2017 - 04:00 AM.

why are we arguing the merits of American presidents with a guy who can't even speak English or spell?

argumentum ad hominem is now usually understood as a logical fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.
in the case if you don't know lmao


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#355

Posted 20 July 2017 - 04:35 AM Edited by El Diablo, 20 July 2017 - 04:35 AM.

oh you caught me. judging a book by it's cover.

guilty as charged.

 

even had your grammar and spelling been perfect, it's clear from the relative inaccuracy of your opening remarks that you're not prepared for this debate. everything you said was pure ignorance. you don't understand how the national debt works, for starters. and you don't seem to understand Obama's position on the 2nd Amendment.

 

Trump is failing miserably at his job thus far. his agenda is in shambles. in spite of Obama's naivete and timidness, he had already accomplished real legislation with higher approval ratings than Donald at the same point in his first tenure. there's no comparison between the 2 men. you're shamefully misinformed.

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#356

Posted 20 July 2017 - 05:42 AM

You do realise that the budget is technically written by Congress and the President has to sign it, yes? So in reality, Congress doesn't care about the deficit, particularly not after former Vice President Dick Cheney declared that the deficit didn't matter. There are a few fiscal conservatives left in Congress, but they don't have much of a say anyway. Republicans just get some moderate Democrats on board and keep the budget big and unwieldy.

A story that got lost in all the ACA repeal failure was the introduction of a proposed budget, which, while doesn't increase the deficit, doesn't decrease it either.

The national debt increasing steadily under President Obama's watch can be attributed to two things: A terrible economy (see 2008 financial crisis) and opposition in Congress.

And you ask who can say what sort of gun one should have? Well, the government. That same government that says what sort of cars can drive on the roads legally. Plus a lot of the restrictions on guns are done on a state level. Additionally, a vast majority of Americans approve of background checks for gun purchases or restrictions on certain types of weapons. I don't really see the need for an AR-15 in a private home, unless they are expecting to be attacked by zombies or church rebels or some such.

But while President Obama was in office, gun control laws became a lot more relaxed across the board.

Plus the question is 'was Obama a good president?', which becomes ridiculous if you rate based on your own political views. I rate it in terms of how much he managed to accomplished based on his own agenda, how he tried to strived to be a unifying figure in US politics, how he worked with Congress, how he appeared internationally and worked diplomatically, and so forth. Not whether I actually agreed with his policies or agendas, because then the question becomes too easy and without any substance.

It is impossible to make a unified in a democracy, but it isn't the case now, I said that economically in US was terrible(but I disagree with his foreign policy either an hypocrite he is), and well I appreciate guns, I would collect them, for an example an AR-15, Colt 1911, .50 magnum and others, certainly I agree with the background check and all, but who the hell the government thinks what guns should I get or not? it comes from the person per person
about horrible economy, the problem is obama trying to get his nose to intervene in the economy

To intervene
 

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#357

Posted 20 July 2017 - 05:57 AM Edited by Waifus_2, 20 July 2017 - 05:57 AM.

oh you caught me. judging a book by it's cover.

guilty as charged.

 

even had your grammar and spelling been perfect, it's clear from the relative inaccuracy of your opening remarks that you're not prepared for this debate. everything you said was pure ignorance. you don't understand how the national debt works, for starters. and you don't seem to understand Obama's position on the 2nd Amendment.

 

Trump is failing miserably at his job thus far. his agenda is in shambles. in spite of Obama's naivete and timidness, he had already accomplished real legislation with higher approval ratings than Donald at the same point in his first tenure. there's no comparison between the 2 men. you're shamefully misinformed.

of course, no one of Republican Party liked him as well, just some hotshots, but not important purely because the party sold itself and that is a problem, but some of his actions are good enough i.e cutting taxes(wich I loved it) and get out ot the TPP(I hope he gets out of nafta soon) and the approval ratings, you should know that what is against media is always with bad approvals or wathever they call, I have friend in Texas that says a lot of people are liking Trump government(of course Texas one of the best states Tbh) and about national debts you should know that Obama spent with useless thing that indebted USA, so  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ it's your call if you believe it or not maybe


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#358

Posted 20 July 2017 - 07:17 AM

but some of his actions are good enough i.e cutting taxes(wich I loved it)

For the rich. Cutting taxes for the rich. Not for the middle classes, or the poor. Just the rich. If he'd had his was when it comes to healthcare reform he would have denied 20 million Americans coverage, and drastically increased prices and reduced competition for most of the rest, in exchange for cutting taxes for the top 5%.

I have friend in Texas that says a lot of people are liking Trump government

Right, and one person's second or third hand anecdotes is of more value that statistical polling? I don't think so.

and about national debts you should know that Obama spent with useless thing that indebted USA

What, like reversing a near economic collapse during the largest recession since the 1930s, and transforming that into a sustained period of economic growth and declining unemployment?
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#359

Posted 20 July 2017 - 07:24 AM

Wow, you should seriously inform yourself on topics before you attempt to discuss them. As well as back yourself up with evidence.

 

 

said that economically in US was terrible

 

By and large it was recovering under Obama, from the massive war spending created by Bush and the global financial crisis. Things were actually improving, so you are wrong.

 

 

but who the hell the government thinks what guns should I get or not? it comes from the person per person

 

I mean, seriously? The government is there to uphold the social contract between the people. Or do you think it's ok for anyone own any gun? Say, a rocket launcher, a minigun, a tank, whatever, as long as they wanted? Without any training? The government should work to ensure that people are minimally capable of operating/owning the things they wanna operate and own. Or else, who will do that?

 

 

about horrible economy, the problem is obama trying to get his nose to intervene in the economy

 

Repeating a statement doesn't make it true. sivis asked you to elaborate on this, and you simply repeated it. What do you mean by "getting his nose to intervene in the economy"?

 

 

 you should know that what is against media is always with bad approvals or wathever they call

 

Literally, what?

 

 

I have friend in Texas that says a lot of people are liking Trump government

 

Right. Doesn't at all mean that his government is good. His approval rate would validate it. Not to mention the fact he failed to do good on any of his major promises.

 

 

of course Texas one of the best states Tbh

 

Lol. 

 

 

you should know that Obama spent with useless thing that indebted USA

 

Surely then you could link us to the information regarding his useless things?

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#360

Posted 29 July 2017 - 02:00 PM

yeah it's pretty funny, with everything that's going on right now, how much people already miss Obama and how much better George WBush looks after all these years. the Trump trainwreck sort of exonerates all the bullsh/t that people used to say about Obama and Bush. called em' the antichrist. call em' Hitler. called em' dictators. said they were trampling on the Constitution. attacks that were used by both Democrats and Republicans. but now we actually have a president who is as close to being impeached or convicted as anyone since Nixon. suddenly everyone can take a step back and examine other politicians in proper context.

 

people passionately hated Bush.

they passionately hated Obama.

 

we can point to things that they did rightly or wrongly, and find a lot to agree on. Bush was simpleton but he could've been a lot worse. Obama was cool but he could've been a lot more effective. fortunately, the one thing that nobody had to worry about was basic competency or trust. we could at least trust Bush and Obama (and Nixon, for that matter) to be intelligent and sympathetic human beings. we cannot trust that our new president is intelligent or competent or empathetic or even patriotic. it's just amazing what can happen in 6 months. absolutely amazing. makes the former presidents look better and better every day.

 

I miss these folks.

VzbNE9n.jpg

 

and this BAMF

mklYh0n.jpg

 

About that Joe Biden guy...

 

He seems to be to close to children sometimes.

 





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