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General US Politics Discussion

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Eutyphro
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#2251

Posted 19 April 2017 - 10:12 PM Edited by Eutyphro, 19 April 2017 - 10:12 PM.

Did you click that link? They document his history of spewing hatred on the internet towards white people, and praising a BLM inspired terrorist who shot up police.


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#2252

Posted 19 April 2017 - 10:54 PM

The line between "racially motivated spree shooter" and "terrorist" is somewhere between thin and nonexistent, but he very much sounds like a Colin Ferguson type character rather than anything else.

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#2253

Posted 19 April 2017 - 11:36 PM

I guess China is now seriously concerned that North Korea might start a nuclear war. How do you guys feel about North Korea? I was looking at some of their equipment they have, is Kim just jibber jabbering or this sad sack serious?https://www.thesun.c...rk-nuclear-war/


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#2254

Posted 20 April 2017 - 12:08 AM

The line between "racially motivated spree shooter" and "terrorist" is somewhere between thin and nonexistent, but he very much sounds like a Colin Ferguson type character rather than anything else.

The difference can be hard to grasp, but the difference is whether there is a political motive, and in the cases of Dylann Roof and also this BLM related attack there do seem to be political motives. So if a hate crime is not intended as a political act then it's not a terror attack.


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#2255

Posted 20 April 2017 - 01:33 AM

 a BLM inspired terrorist

The Dallas shooter was disillusioned with BLM, not 'inspired' by it.

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The Odyssey
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#2256

Posted 20 April 2017 - 04:03 AM Edited by The Odyssey, 20 April 2017 - 04:11 AM.

 

And no sympathy for people who vote for Trump. You put a racist xenophobic c*nt in place, left or right, you deserve to be punched. It's because of people like that that leads to us having to contend with people like Trump, which legitimize racist views by putting racists like Bannon in positions of power.

 

 

**sorry for the late reply, i didn't notice your reply until now when i was going through all the arguments**

 

See, the reason why Trump won wasn't strictly because of racism, but also the fact that people preferred him over Hilary. Which isn't racist.

 

If you by the logic that "all trump voters are racist" then you can easily say that all Hilary voters are fine with the heinous things Hilary has done. Maybe people voted for Trump because they didn't want someone who had received funding from the Saudi Arabian government, gave weapons to said donors, set up private e-mail servers and did many other corrupt things in office?

 

Maybe if you guys didn't allow for such a corrupt politician to represent the democratic party then yes, perhaps you could pull the race card on Trump voters. But since you didn't, it mainly boiled down to people having to decide the lesser of two evils. 

 

So with all that said and done, do you still agree that Trump voters deserve this?

 


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#2257

Posted 20 April 2017 - 04:44 AM Edited by Tchuck, 20 April 2017 - 04:44 AM.

**sorry for the late reply, i didn't notice your reply until now when i was going through all the arguments**

 

 

 

See, the reason why Trump won wasn't strictly because of racism, but also the fact that people preferred him over Hilary. Which isn't racist.

 

If you by the logic that "all trump voters are racist" then you can easily say that all Hilary voters are fine with the heinous things Hilary has done. Maybe people voted for Trump because they didn't want someone who had received funding from the Saudi Arabian government, gave weapons to said donors, set up private e-mail servers and did many other corrupt things in office?

 

Maybe if you guys didn't allow for such a corrupt politician to represent the democratic party then yes, perhaps you could pull the race card on Trump voters. But since you didn't, it mainly boiled down to people having to decide the lesser of two evils. 

The reason Trump won was because Hillary was just as poor a candidate as he was. He at least had the benefit of lying and being somewhat charismatic. She had the charisma of a dead duck lying on the pavement on a hot summer day.

 

And mind you, I didn't say all Trump voters are racist. I know that some voted as a form of protest, some who simply despised Hillary, some who believed he was going to do the things he said he would do. Sadly, these people were all badly informed when it came to vote, as most voters usually are. 

But if you vote for Trump and then complain your husband was deported for being illegal, or complain that you lost your job cause Trump cut a better deal with Mexico, or complain that you lost your land due to the construction of The Wall™, or complain that you can't afford healthcare after Trump butches the ACA, then I have zero sympathy for you. You deserve what you get for making a badly informed decision.

You can find justification for voting for Trump, or for not voting on Hillary. But you better put up with the consequences.

 

And yeah, if the Democrat party had listened to the people and actually selected a decent candidate, maybe all of this could have been avoided.

 

 

So with all that said and done, do you still agree that Trump voters deserve this?

 

That's a nicely selected snipped. Do you have the entire exchange or more information on what happened? Cause I'm pretty sure those black dudes wouldn't simply pull out a dude from a car to beat him up because he voted for Trump.

 

Though I would support them 100% if they did so, as putting Trump in power has made things objectively worse for minorities and immigrants in America. All for the sake of bringing back coal and building a wall.

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#2258

Posted 20 April 2017 - 04:55 AM

Trump won because he did something no other Presidential candidate has done: He appealed to the blue-collar workforce. It's just unfortunate it was thought of as just being only white people('white working class'). ://// I was in the US workforce(african american) for 20 years and that election made me feel invisible. But it is what it is..

But yeah blue collar workers should know better. Your employer will find a clever way around Trump, as they have found clever ways around the government. There wont be "more" jobs - they'll find a way to cut them as usual. You guys got suckered.


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#2259

Posted 20 April 2017 - 04:58 AM

The context for the video iirc is that he was a helpless old man that was pulled out of his car because he "looked like he voted for Trump" It's pretty disgusting, I don't think anyone deserves that no matter who they voted for. 

 

At least we can agree that America was put into a pretty sh*tty situation having to decide between two corrupt candidates. 

 

And the way I see it is that due to these circumstances, voting for Trump doesn't make you a bad person, but there are definitely bad people who voted for him.  


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#2260

Posted 20 April 2017 - 06:38 AM

The kind of people that voted for Trump because they didn't want Hillary aren't out there attending 'pro-Trump' rallies alongside a bunch of neo-Nazis, white nationalists, and fascists 3 months after he was inaugurated, so this notion that antifascists are just out there lumping up any person that voted for Trump is unfounded.


It'd be alright if they were tho lol

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#2261

Posted 20 April 2017 - 08:00 AM

The difference can be hard to grasp, but the difference is whether there is a political motive

Dylan Roof was definitely politically motivated, he wanted to start a Turner Diaries-esque race war. I'm not sure on the assertion that this shooting was a "terrorist" incident given that there doesn't seem to have been any wider political agenda to his actions. People are inferring one based on sh*t he's posted on social media which is a bit silly.

The fact police aren't treating it as a hate crime incident despite the fact the current default is to assume everything is terrorism, especially if there's an Islam link (no matter how tenuous, like shouting two words) speaks volumes to me.
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#2262

Posted 20 April 2017 - 01:33 PM

Did you click that link? They document his history of spewing hatred on the internet towards white people, and praising a BLM inspired terrorist who shot up police.

Yes. Not just this article, but also another one (Huffing Post Arabic) that literally say that this idiot isn't a Muslim AT ALL.

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Eutyphro
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#2263

Posted 20 April 2017 - 01:50 PM Edited by Eutyphro, 20 April 2017 - 01:52 PM.

 

 a BLM inspired terrorist

The Dallas shooter was disillusioned with BLM, not 'inspired' by it.

The two aren't mutually exclusive. You can be both inspired by something, and then disillusioned by it.

 

Dylan Roof was definitely politically motivated, he wanted to start a Turner Diaries-esque race war. I'm not sure on the assertion that this shooting was a "terrorist" incident given that there doesn't seem to have been any wider political agenda to his actions. People are inferring one based on sh*t he's posted on social media which is a bit silly.

I agree that Dylann Roof is a clearer case than this one, considering the manifesto, but it is also a pretty similar case.

 

Yes. Not just this article, but also another one (Huffing Post Arabic) that literally say that this idiot isn't a Muslim AT ALL.

He was barely a Muslim, but he was a black supremacist..


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#2264

Posted 20 April 2017 - 03:16 PM

The two aren't mutually exclusive.


 

 
 

It is, though. Disillusionment implies renunciation of a previously held belief or idea. If one is disillusioned with something, they are no longer 'inspired' by it.

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#2265

Posted 20 April 2017 - 03:19 PM

He was barely a Muslim...

This isn't even the dumbest sh*t you've said, but my god, your delusional mentality is giving me an intense headache.

You can't be "barely" of anything, you're either a Muslim or not, that's it. And just like how ten-a-penny said, the guy's not a Muslim, as simple as that.
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#2266

Posted 20 April 2017 - 03:53 PM

It seems like conservatives can't make up their mind whether they want to cast this as a terrorist incident to fear-monger about ISIS, or to spin it as a BLM-motivated hate crime to cast more animosity to undermine civil rights issues.

 

It seems like they can have their cake and eat it too though.

 

BlackLivesMatters inspires racially motivated terrorists attacks!  Also, don't look now, but the sky is falling.

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#2267

Posted 20 April 2017 - 04:17 PM Edited by acmilano, 20 April 2017 - 04:19 PM.

It says here that he was a member of Moorish Science Temple,predecessor of Nation of Islam.

 

http://heavy.com/new...ect-california/

 

https://en.wikipedia...mple_of_America


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#2268

Posted 20 April 2017 - 05:19 PM

He belongs to a Moroccan religion whose "prophet" died some decades ago. If my memory is correct (can't find the article again), its a bit independent of Islam. It do carry a few straits here and there from the Abrahamic religions but only a bit.
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Eutyphro
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#2269

Posted 20 April 2017 - 05:54 PM Edited by Eutyphro, 20 April 2017 - 05:59 PM.

This isn't even the dumbest sh*t you've said, but my god, your delusional mentality is giving me an intense headache.


You can't be "barely" of anything, you're either a Muslim or not, that's it. And just like how ten-a-penny said, the guy's not a Muslim, as simple as that.

Maybe you should chill the f*ck out. There are plenty of links between him and Islam, but he wasn't a completely devout exemplar. He was barely a muslim is an accurate thing to say. It is actually generous to your agenda. If someone right wing would come into this topic they would most definitely argue that he was an Islamic terrorist.

 

It is, though. Disillusionment implies renunciation of a previously held belief or idea. If one is disillusioned with something, they are no longer 'inspired' by it.

It depends on whether you completely renounce it. You can be disillusioned by the specific course of a movement but still remain inspired by it in terms of ideology. But that is theoretical hair splitting. I've read about the Dallas shooter now and you are right he was actually 'angry' at BLM so my original comment was not accurate.

 

BlackLivesMatters inspires racially motivated terrorists attacks!

Why would this be so impossible? Every activist movement has the potential to turn violent or inspire destructive behavior. There is a problem with excessive violence both against and by the police in the USA, because it is an excessively violent society. I also agree that African Americans are unfairly disadvantaged in many ways, by incarceration for drug offences and by having fewer opportunities. But the narrative that the police is a racist force that specifically targets and murders minorities is a false narrative, and it is a false narrative that will likely result in retaliation attacks like this one and the one in Dallas.


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#2270

Posted 20 April 2017 - 06:20 PM

But the narrative that the police is a racist force that specifically targets and murders minorities is a false narrative


Well you say that... In all fairness, the infiltration of US police forces by neo-Nazi and white supremacist groups isn't a new phenomenon. It's something that's currently being extensively investigated by the FBI, in fact.
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#2271

Posted 20 April 2017 - 07:12 PM

Read my respond, Euty. He's a follower of another religion, not a Muslim.

 

 

And you can't be a "barely" Muslim. You can't be a "barely" [religion here]. Barely follow the religion, yes, but being barely X? No.

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#2272

Posted 21 April 2017 - 10:05 AM Edited by DangerZ0neX, 21 April 2017 - 10:27 AM.

Here's the average teenage Trump supporter, can't wait for him to be embarrassed about his sh*tty life-choices five years from now, if he straightens up.
 
dgorhl9nxssy.png
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#2273

Posted 21 April 2017 - 10:46 AM Edited by Uncle Sikee Atric, 21 April 2017 - 10:46 AM.

The Social Media Generation!

 

Time to Ctrl-Alt-Right-Delete....

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#2274

Posted 21 April 2017 - 12:36 PM

Here's the average teenage Trump supporter, can't wait for him to be embarrassed about his sh*tty life-choices five years from now, if he straightens up.
 dgorhl9nxssy.png


From what I know of people like him - parading their Swastikas in the face of "liberal snowflakes" - is that they are pretentious edge lords, doing nothing more than to get a rise out of people. I doubt they have any actual intellectual basis for their ideology, not even a Wikipedia level of knowledge.

Although, this is what you get when you saturate politics with Post-Modernist garbage and Idpol nonsense. You get two sides: Black Lives Matter and White Lives Matter. Both are poppycock but inflated beyond reasonable degree thanks to the swelling provided by these gullible kids.
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#2275

Posted 21 April 2017 - 03:02 PM Edited by Eutyphro, 21 April 2017 - 03:12 PM.

 

But the narrative that the police is a racist force that specifically targets and murders minorities is a false narrative


Well you say that... In all fairness, the infiltration of US police forces by neo-Nazi and white supremacist groups isn't a new phenomenon. It's something that's currently being extensively investigated by the FBI, in fact.

The fact that there are neo-nazi infiltrants in the police force doesn't mean the entire police force, a majority, or a large part has policies that can be understood as intrinsically racist, or that all cops, a majority, or even a large part are racist. Only someone who has no grasp of nuance would claim that. Statistics don't really support the idea that violence aimed at African Americans by the police is based on racial profiling, considering about one in three people shot and killed by the police is black though African Americans commit about half of all violent crime.

 

Although, this is what you get when you saturate politics with Post-Modernist garbage and Idpol nonsense. You get two sides: Black Lives Matter and White Lives Matter. Both are poppycock but inflated beyond reasonable degree thanks to the swelling provided by these gullible kids.

So in effect you are arguing that the identity politics on the right is a reaction to identity politics on the left? Which effectively in terms of causality lays the blame for Trump and the rise of the alt-right at the feet of the left. Many politicians with center right economic ideas like Hillary Clinton support Idpol though, so 'the left' is pretty relative here.


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#2276

Posted 21 April 2017 - 03:11 PM

Has that kid actually done anything other than loselly affiliate himself with *insert ideology*?

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#2277

Posted 21 April 2017 - 05:46 PM

The fact that there are neo-nazi infiltrants in the police force doesn't mean the entire police force, a majority, or a large part has policies that can be understood as intrinsically racist, or that all cops, a majority, or even a large part are racist.

I don't know how aware you are of the way that US police departments are structured, but "police" is not a single homogenous entity. You have local law enforcement, state, federal. Some local police departments do have particular, endemic issues with violent racism which is either condoned or actively encouraged by senior figures, as noted in my link above. This is not really open for debate, it's an empirical fact. Similarly, it is a fact that members of far right, neo-Nazi and white nationalist groups are actively trying to infiltrate the local, state and federal law enforcement- they've said as much, as have the FBI.

I concede statements on how the "police is racist" aren't exactly helpful, but they're not necessarily incorrect or misleading. In some cases local law enforcement- the only law enforcement people really have day-to-day contact with- are endemically racist, and general statements from people living in their vicinity about police racism aren't unwarranted or unreasonable.

To be honest, we don't really how exactly how large a problem endemic racism is in the police, because when it is discovered it's often burried as "a few bad apples" and many forces are unwilling to actually address the subject openly.

Statistics don't really support the idea that violence aimed at African Americans by the police is based on racial profiling, considering about one in three people shot and killed by the police is black though African Americans commit about half of all violent crime.

Eh? I'm totally baffled by this. Do you really think there's a correlation between these two? Anyway, isn't the problem here the numbers of people killed by police who've done absolutely nothing to warrant violence against them at all? How are these figures even relevant, even ignoring the complete non sequitur?
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#2278

Posted 21 April 2017 - 06:23 PM

The fact that there are neo-nazi infiltrants in the police force doesn't mean the entire police force, a majority, or a large part has policies that can be understood as intrinsically racist, or that all cops, a majority, or even a large part are racist. Only someone who has no grasp of nuance would claim that. Statistics don't really support the idea that violence aimed at African Americans by the police is based on racial profiling, considering about one in three people shot and killed by the police is black though African Americans commit about half of all violent crime.

You need to watch this in its entirety. It's long but it's one of the most educational videos on the subject of police culture in the US and how it relates to African Americans.

 

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#2279

Posted 21 April 2017 - 08:28 PM

That's a nicely selected snipped. Do you have the entire exchange or more information on what happened? Cause I'm pretty sure those black dudes wouldn't simply pull out a dude from a car to beat him up because he voted for Trump.

 

Though I would support them 100% if they did so, as putting Trump in power has made things objectively worse for minorities and immigrants in America. All for the sake of bringing back coal and building a wall.

 

So anyone who's life gets made worse by a political candidate, can beat up people who voted for that candidate?

 

Interesting. Tell me Tchuck, what other riveting ideas do you have to improve society? 

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#2280

Posted 21 April 2017 - 09:00 PM Edited by Eutyphro, 21 April 2017 - 09:04 PM.

and general statements from people living in their vicinity about police racism aren't unwarranted or unreasonable.

They can be unreasonable. As in the case of Michael Brown where almost every African American witness of the incident testified in direct contradiction with the facts that followed from the forensic evidence. But in no way have I ever tried to argue racism in general is not a factor or an issue at all in policing in the USA. My point was mainly about the myth that police are more prone to pull the trigger on a black suspect, which is contradicted by facts and statistics that are easy to find. And I opposed the argument that you can conclude something is systemic or prevalent because of incidents in a large population over many years.

 

It also depends on whether you define racism according to effects or intent. The effects of US drug laws and the resulting incarceration rates are racist, but it is not clear at all whether the policy was designed or executed with racist intent. The testimonies on racial profiling are also quite disparate. It is not at all clear whether racial profiling is widely and systematically practiced, or whether it being practiced is incidental. 
 

Do you really think there's a correlation between these two?

Yes, because use of force by police occurs most often when they interact with violent or armed suspects. We could look into the statistics further as they are very easy to find, but they don't support a BLM narrative at all.





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