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General US Politics Discussion

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Melchior
  • Melchior

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#4141

Posted A week ago

 

Now, it should be said, I'm basing my comments on the articles.  I wouldn't know a proud boy from a proud man.  Having said that, if this group is involved in violence, count me out.  That's probably the reaction from most normal Americans.  Proud who?

The 'Proud Boys' are a group founded by Gavin McInnes, and can be described as 'alt-light'. The purpose of the group is Western chauvinism. Gavin is kind of a strange figure politically. He used to be a punk rocker, and he founded Vice media. He seems to have turned himself into a shock value comedian and pseudo conservative trolling the politically correct, and playing a male chauvinist for laughs. He's actually really funny sometimes. I like this vid he made about it:

Woah, what a wacky dude!

 

 

 

Well, yeah really. Except if you think wearing a MAGA hat makes you deserving of pepper spray to the face, which you of course will ironically agree with, because you are just so damn rad.

You said they "pepper spray people unprovoked all the time" but I think what you actually meant was that they "pepper sprayed someone unprovoked one time" which is a bit different and in no way relevant here. 

 

 

 

How exactly? Isn't it legal to use pepper spray in self defence anyway?

Well yeah, but not to drive down a street spraying everyone in retaliation for things being thrown at your car. 

 

Do you actually now deny that the police have far-right sympathies? Are you that far gone? 


Eutyphro
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#4142

Posted A week ago Edited by Eutyphro, A week ago.

Well, if wearing black masks can qualify a person as a "terrorist", then yeah, wearing a MAGA hat should be an equally broad qualifier of someone's agenda.

Some points to this completely confused response you've given: Firstly, I'm skeptical of considering Antifa a terrorist organization. I think that downplays the more murderous terrorism. So I've never argued for calling them a terrorist organization, actually. Furthermore, Sure a MAGA hat qualifies an agenda. A ski mask actually doesn't. But a skimask signifies heinous intent, and cowardice. Finally, the point about the MAGA hat was a response to the requirement to get maced by Antifa. A MAGA hat is enough to get that treatment. The fact that Antifa wear face covering material is irrelevant in this context. It's besides the point.

Edit: I now see this was somehow aimed at Spaghetti Cat, though it was a response to something that I said.

 

You said they "pepper spray people unprovoked all the time" but I think what you actually meant was that they "pepper sprayed someone unprovoked one time" which is a bit different and in no way relevant here. 

No, they use pepper spray aggressively all the time. And I don't really get why you bother denying it. I think you know they do.

 



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfSP5hHa2GU


Saggy
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#4143

Posted A week ago

 

Well, if wearing black masks can qualify a person as a "terrorist", then yeah, wearing a MAGA hat should be an equally broad qualifier of someone's agenda.

Some points to this completely confused response you've given: Firstly, I'm skeptical of considering Antifa a terrorist organization. I think that downplays the more murderous terrorism. So I've never argued for calling them a terrorist organization, actually. Furthermore, Sure a MAGA hat qualifies an agenda. A ski mask actually doesn't. But a skimask signifies heinous intent, and cowardice. Finally, the point about the MAGA hat was a response to the requirement to get maced by Antifa. A MAGA hat is enough to get that treatment. The fact that Antifa wear face covering material is irrelevant in this context. It's besides the point.

 

Yeah I edited, I was mostly talking to Spaghetti Cat 'cause he's all kudos to the DoJ for calling antifa terrorists.

 

But what I meant was that the guys in the truck might have been attacked by the counter-protestors because they were wearing MAGA hats, I wasn't harking back to what you're talking about, but in reality I think the requirements for committing violence against any leftist are equally as low if you really want to be truthful about it.

 

What I'm saying is that there's a reason they threw rocks at the truck, and there's a reason they pepper-sprayed the people who threw rocks, but it's really just a matter of opinion and conjecture who "started it".  They could have shouted something unpopular and became surrounded by people, and I have seen enough of them bold enough to pound car windows and stuff.  Versus running someone over, masing them to get them the hell away from your car is a pretty restrained choice.  There's a lot of anti-BLM types who talk about running free-way blockers over and somehow justifying that.  But I wouldn't go so far as to say that the guys in the truck didn't provoke the counter-protestors.  They clearly provoked some kind of response which needed pepper-spray to disperse.


Tchuck
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#4144

Posted A week ago

Wanna have another go at it?

 

I'd like you to actually address what I said. You're condemning one side without any real evidence, based on police action, while letting the other side go and not questioning why because "well the police was probably right".

 

And again, explain how:

 

 

The evidence doesn't support this claim. 

 

When it clearly does. English is not my first language, and I'm surprised it is yours. But allow me to repeat myself:

 

I mean, one side tried to ram his truck into a group of people, and had another truck with people pepper spraying others. The other side had people that threw rocks at cars. One of these groups was arrested and the other wasn't. This is not a terribly difficult logic jump to make, and lord knows you've jumped across grand canyonesque jumps before. But in this case, since it was antifa and black blocks and all the evil in the world on one side, it was warranted. Right. 

 

Now have another go and tell me why the police isn't at the very least being extremely complacent with violence on one side.


Eutyphro
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#4145

Posted A week ago

Yeah I edited, I was mostly talking to Spaghetti Cat 'cause he's all kudos to the DoJ for calling antifa terrorists.

But what I meant was that the guys in the truck might have been attacked by the counter-protestors because they were wearing MAGA hats, I wasn't harking back to what you're talking about, but in reality I think the requirements for committing violence against any leftist are equally as low if you really want to be truthful about it.

 

What I'm saying is that there's a reason they threw rocks at the truck, and there's a reason they pepper-sprayed the people who threw rocks, but it's really just a matter of opinion and conjecture who "started it".  They could have shouted something unpopular and became surrounded by people, and I have seen enough of them bold enough to pound car windows and stuff.  Versus running someone over, masing them to get them the hell away from your car is a pretty restrained choice.  There's a lot of anti-BLM types who talk about running free-way blockers over and somehow justifying that.  But I wouldn't go so far as to say that the guys in the truck didn't provoke the counter-protestors.  They clearly provoked some kind of response which needed pepper-spray to disperse.

I think most of what you are saying is reasonable. We seem to agree on the point that we just don't know enough to completely judge what happened. But your claim that wearing a MAGA hat is 'provoking' at a 'Patriot Prayer rally' is dubious. It's not. They might've unnecessarily provoked the Antifa rioters, but we don't know whether they did. Let's leave it at that.


Saggy
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#4146

Posted A week ago

 

Yeah I edited, I was mostly talking to Spaghetti Cat 'cause he's all kudos to the DoJ for calling antifa terrorists.

But what I meant was that the guys in the truck might have been attacked by the counter-protestors because they were wearing MAGA hats, I wasn't harking back to what you're talking about, but in reality I think the requirements for committing violence against any leftist are equally as low if you really want to be truthful about it.

 

What I'm saying is that there's a reason they threw rocks at the truck, and there's a reason they pepper-sprayed the people who threw rocks, but it's really just a matter of opinion and conjecture who "started it".  They could have shouted something unpopular and became surrounded by people, and I have seen enough of them bold enough to pound car windows and stuff.  Versus running someone over, masing them to get them the hell away from your car is a pretty restrained choice.  There's a lot of anti-BLM types who talk about running free-way blockers over and somehow justifying that.  But I wouldn't go so far as to say that the guys in the truck didn't provoke the counter-protestors.  They clearly provoked some kind of response which needed pepper-spray to disperse.

I think most of what you are saying is reasonable. We seem to agree on the point that we just don't know enough to completely judge what happened. But your claim that wearing a MAGA hat is 'provoking' at a 'Patriot Prayer rally' is dubious. It's not. They might've unnecessarily provoked the Antifa rioters, but we don't know whether they did. Let's leave it at that.

 

Well, that's precisely the issue, should it be left at that? I mean we don't know why the truck was attacked, if it was attacked before or after the occupants used pepper-spray on a crowd of pedestrians, etc.  The details of who to blame should have been hashed out under an investigation, but the police who were at the scene apparently felt it was within their discretion to deem this a justified use.  Of course, that begs the question: Is that because it was actually a justified use, or because the police are sympathetic with the conservative/right?

 

I believe it's really hard to answer that question without just more speculation, conjecture and bias and so I think that's what makes it evident that some kind of investigation should have been made.  Fortunately there's nothing stopping them from conducting that investigation in retrospect, but still it just does not seem very just that the police will let some groups go under their own discretion, while they will use the full extent of the law to detain other groups until further investigation.  It is a pretty glaring double standard, if not indication of some kind of conspiratory or sympathetic view by the local PD.  So while it might surprise some that I actually think the pepper-spraying was probably a legitimate lawful use of pepper-spray for self-defense, I still think it's troublesome the police didn't at least detain them and fully investigate it.  There doesn't even seem to be a police report or anything of that nature to review.

 

Basically, best case scenario: These guys mased a crowd of people surrounding their truck to get them away so they could flee, which despite whoever started it, is a perfectly justified use of pepper spray. Then the police witnessed the entire incident, and decided that apparently they did nothing against the law to deserve being attacked, and were let along their way.  They then crashed into a police cruiser, or "nudged it" as they contend, under duress from the incident, and the police allowed them to leave.

 

Worst case scenario: These guys mased a crowd of people because they're assholes, claimed-self defense after the crowd started hitting them with rocks, and the local PD was sympathetic with their politics and so turned an eye to this incident and allowed them to leave the scene and even crash into one of their vehicles and the police simply let this go as well for the same sympathetic reasons.

 

So there's probably a lot of truth and middle ground to be meshed out there, but it looks very bad any time a person runs into a police vehicle and the police simply wave them on by.  Compound that with them having pepper-sprayed a bunch of people before hand, and it definitely seems like the police were giving these people carte blanc to get the hell out of there.  But again, was that because they somehow agreed with their politics, or because the police witnessed the entire thing and were 100% sure this was a lawful use of force against an attack.  The fact that there's no incident report for this is very, very troubling, and if they had even made a simple detainment there would probably be such a report.

 

I'm not saying they should have cuffed them and given them cavity searches, but just letting anyone go in a circumstance like this is 100% favoritism.  That favoritism might not have been unjustified, but we'll never really know it seems.  I think that is the fault of the police more than anyone, and it's certainly hard to argue the perspective that the police let them skate because they're all pro-Trump good ol' boys versus, in my honest opinion, was a judgement call by the police that the pepper-spraying was in self-defense.  Again though, since it's all so uncorroborated, you could really make as strong an argument the other way.

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Spaghetti Cat
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#4147

Posted A week ago Edited by Spaghetti Cat, A week ago.

^didn't see this earlier, but agree.  It could be either way IMHO.  Hope you don't mind if I quoted you below.  Thought it made the point that we don't know either way. Kudos.  

 

 

 

 

Now, it should be said, I'm basing my comments on the articles.  I wouldn't know a proud boy from a proud man.  Having said that, if this group is involved in violence, count me out.  That's probably the reaction from most normal Americans.  Proud who?

The 'Proud Boys' are a group founded by Gavin McInnes, and can be described as 'alt-light'. The purpose of the group is Western chauvinism. Gavin is kind of a strange figure politically. He used to be a punk rocker, and he founded Vice media. He seems to have turned himself into a shock value comedian and pseudo conservative trolling the politically correct, and playing a male chauvinist for laughs. He's actually really funny sometimes. I like this vid he made about it:

Woah, what a wacky dude!

 

 

 

Heh Mel, thanks buddy ya made me laugh.  

 

Look the McGuiness guy says he's an anarchist.  So isn't this blue on blue?  I don't have a dog in this fight.  Pox on both of them I say.  

 

This is the deal, I am a Constitutional Originalist, a conservative if you will.  If you want to peacefully protest, that is your First Amendment Right.  If you are assaulting police officers or running people down, that is breaking the law.  You should be arrested.  Period.  

 

Which brings us to...

 

 

 

 

Wanna have another go at it?

 

I'd like you to actually address what I said. You're condemning one side without any real evidence (not true), based on police action(arrest reports, real evidence), while letting the other side go and not questioning why (nope) because "well the police was probably right". (they need evidence to arrest someone, if you are talking about the police cruiser that would be a civil matter)  

 

And again, explain how:

 

 

The evidence doesn't support this claim. 

 

 

 

 

Actually Saggy had a pretty good response to this:  

 

 

 

 

What I'm saying is that there's a reason they threw rocks at the truck, and there's a reason they pepper-sprayed the people who threw rocks, but it's really just a matter of opinion and conjecture who "started it".  They could have shouted something unpopular and became surrounded by people, and I have seen enough of them bold enough to pound car windows and stuff.  Versus running someone over, masing them to get them the hell away from your car is a pretty restrained choice.  There's a lot of anti-BLM types who talk about running free-way blockers over and somehow justifying that.  But I wouldn't go so far as to say that the guys in the truck didn't provoke the counter-protestors.  They clearly provoked some kind of response which needed pepper-spray to disperse.

 

 

 

The point is, we don't know.  The article that everyone quotes doesn't go into detail.  If you have some other evidence to support one way or another I'll be happy to look at it.  

 

 

 

 

When it clearly does. English is not my first language, and I'm surprised it is yours. But allow me to repeat myself:

 

I mean, one side tried to ram his truck into a group of people, and had another truck with people pepper spraying others. The other side had people that threw rocks at cars. One of these groups was arrested and the other wasn't. This is not a terribly difficult logic jump to make, and lord knows you've jumped across grand canyonesque jumps before. But in this case, since it was antifa and black blocks and all the evil in the world on one side, it was warranted. Right. 

 

Now have another go and tell me why the police isn't at the very least being extremely complacent with violence on one side.

 

 

 

That's a claim that you have to prove also.  There is a police conspiracy to arrest one group of protesters and not the other?  Help me out here.  

 

Allow me to be clear, the article I've linked to earlier happened in Portland.  After that, the protesters moved.  The events with the trucks happened in another city.  This is a totally different police force.  

 

But let's jump that grand canyon together.  I'll go with you and say that the drivers of both trucks intentionally did what they are accused of.  If that's the case, condemned, done.  Full stop.  Now, you claim the police have purposefully let these people go.  Help me out here Louise (That's an old movie reference Thelma and Louise, they drove a car over a cliff and into a canyon...nevermind.)    

 

Actually the police did a pretty good job, in both places.  They held the crowds apart.  When they showed up at another location the police there did a good job as well.  And I've been critical of the police force in Charlottesville.  It was after the main group dispersed that these knuckleheads, ON BOTH SIDES YEAH, started trouble.  


acmilano
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#4148

Posted A week ago

Rest in Peace to all victims of 911 attacks. It will stay in memory of everyone.

 

RIP to all of the innocent lives lost on this day.  :/ #NeverForget

hey guess what; you know who did forget?

president Donald Trump.

 

most US politicians tweeted or sent out messages today about 9/11

Biden, Obama, Hillary, Bush. all living former presidents. many members of congress. the Pentagon.

 

Trump has 2 twitter accounts and the platform of the executive office.

he remembers to send out messages demeaning immigrants and gay people and minorities. he remembers to tweet about celebrity feuds and gossip. but the leader of the free world couldn't be bothered to say something about 9/11 on 9/11...

 

Spoiler

 

These people dress in all black and use intimidating tactics because they are against nazi's, it's a form of irony.

I'm not sure you understand the definition of "irony."

using intimidating tactics against would-be Nazi's is not ironic; it's virtually entirely justified based on basic human logic.

 

the only thing here that's ironic (although quickly becoming routine) is how you've once again found yourself on the side of defending Nazi's. bravo. encore.

 

The event with the car occurred after the violence came from antifa.  If I need to say that people shouldn't run over peaceful protesters, sure count me in. Let's see if those on the far left wish to condone the violence coming from their side...been waiting for a while now.

what are you talking about?

I'm not even sure you understand the definition of "violence" at this point.

 

there's no universe in which being hit by some pepper spray is justification for running people down with your car. it really doesn't matter who started it or what side they're on.

 

It's nice to see an effective response, about time too!  
 
Thanks PDT!

lol...

you're such a boot licking moron. POTUS stopped by for a handful of photo-ops with his wife in high heels, both of them sporting new hats that were for sale on his website, neither of them breaking a sweat, neither of them getting anywhere near the wind or water, and trying to feign sympathy like aliens from another planet.

 

our dumbass excuse for a president had the gall to stand up in front of an audience of hurricane survivors who were already waiting for assistance and tell them "WHAT A GREAT TURNOUT..." as if they had a f/cking home to go to or a happy hour to be at instead. as a man, as a human, Donald Trump is too stupid a person to comprehend proper tone. he has no empathy in his body.

 

but you see nothing wrong with this picture, as usual.

 

twilight-zone.jpg

 

He did gave entire speech on 911 remembrance ceremony at Pentagon:

 

 

And put on his tweeter.

 

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump

 

Much sadder is that ordinary people forgetting. Politicians come and goes,but people sty with their problems.

 

https://www.cbsnews....d-trade-center/


seven50iL
  • seven50iL

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#4149

Posted A week ago

Look's like Lyin' Ted Cruz got caught liking porn on Twitter. Long story short, Twitter is kind of like Tumblr where you're allowed to post sexual content as well. Ted was caught liking a video from the company Reality King's. If you guy's wanna get a good laugh go on Twitter and look up the account SexuallPost.  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:


The Yokel
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#4150

Posted A week ago

Trump didn't even bother to say a few kind words to Mexico after they've been hit by an earthquake and hurricane, despite the fact that Mexico offered to help Texas after the hurricane. In fact he attacked Mexico on Twitter after they offered to help. The man is a despicable excuse for a human being. And his supporters aren't far off. Some are even worse than he is. History will remember you as the bad guys. I hope you're not deluded enough to think otherwise.


El Diablo
  • El Diablo

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#4151

Posted A week ago Edited by El Diablo, A week ago.


He did gave entire speech on 911 remembrance ceremony at Pentagon:
 
youtube.com/watch?v=O8udSoXSYA4
 
And put on his tweeter.
 
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump

yeah he managed to read a short, clearly prepared-for-him statement during the national moment of silence and he eventually put out a tweet. one of the last prominent people to actually do so. you wanna' give him credit for the the weakest possible show of bare minimum support, go ahead. but it's more evidence of how totally unqualified he is for the job of Commander in Chief.

 

Diablo, good to see you.  Are the nurses letting you use the computer lab, or have you escaped the padded cell again?

why don't you answer the questions you defenseless little pussy?
oh right...
 

Ok.  I denounce violence used in rallies, protests, etc. to promote political gains. Care to do the same?  Would be nice if it wasn't so one-sided for a change.

who here is endorsing violence?

you're such a supreme douchebag. you make fun of Tchuck like English isn't his first language while you casually ignore counterpoints and put words in other people's mouths.

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Spaghetti Cat
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#4152

Posted A week ago

This Trump hatred has gone to your head. Take a breather for a while. I'll complain about the 20 trillion debt mark we just passed under this new Admin, but when they do a good job like in Texas and Florida I'll give credit to where it's due. Please come back when you got something other than insults.


@seven: yeah saw that too, Ted should have done that in the primaries, who knows lol.

Saggy
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#4153

Posted A week ago

 

Well, if wearing black masks can qualify a person as a "terrorist", then yeah, wearing a MAGA hat should be an equally broad qualifier of someone's agenda.

Some points to this completely confused response you've given: Firstly, I'm skeptical of considering Antifa a terrorist organization. I think that downplays the more murderous terrorism. So I've never argued for calling them a terrorist organization, actually. Furthermore, Sure a MAGA hat qualifies an agenda. A ski mask actually doesn't. But a skimask signifies heinous intent, and cowardice. Finally, the point about the MAGA hat was a response to the requirement to get maced by Antifa. A MAGA hat is enough to get that treatment. The fact that Antifa wear face covering material is irrelevant in this context. It's besides the point.

Edit: I now see this was somehow aimed at Spaghetti Cat, though it was a response to something that I said.

 

You said they "pepper spray people unprovoked all the time" but I think what you actually meant was that they "pepper sprayed someone unprovoked one time" which is a bit different and in no way relevant here. 

No, they use pepper spray aggressively all the time. And I don't really get why you bother denying it. I think you know they do.

 



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfSP5hHa2GU

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdyxPqSnTJk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TN6AcWzlEys

 

Honestly this is kind of the same dynamic where news media plasters the TV with images of black looters and then everyone assumes only black people loot; meanwhile you can go google "white people looting" to see otherwise.  It's really that baseless.

 

There's two instances right there of Trump supporters using the same pepper spraying tactics, and I'm sure there's more if I really wanted to go dig around and try to discern who was who in a crowd.  There are a lot more videos that are alleging that a Trump supporter was pepper-sprayed by a Trump-protester; again I didn't actually review those, so who is to say it's not people that are uploading and titling the videos that are distorting things, perhaps even without the intention of doing so. If you're an angry Trump supporter and you see a video of unidentifiable people and someone gets pepper sprayed, your natural inclination is going to assume that it was as a Trump supporter that got sprayed by a protester, and you'll upload and label the video thusly. Then you have to factor in just the happenstance of some incidents not being captured on video versus the ones that are. Are Trump supporters bringing cameras and using them more proactively? There's a lot of factors to consider here.

 

So seriously, are these videos really a good gauge of either side's propensity to use "chemical irritants" as the press has liked to dub them? I think this is the leading part of the concept that it's anti-Trump and liberals that are doing most of the pepper spraying or violent acts in general, and I don't believe it really has anything to do with one side using violence more frequently than the other. What's really happening is that the right has capitalized on these publicized and exhibitionist acts of violence as a way to spin and smear the other side as being the violent ones. It's kind of like the rope-a-dope, they use the other side's own anger and unruliness to paint the picture that they're all a bunch of hysterics and lunatics, and they've been doing it for the last couple of years, so they're pretty well practiced at crying, "Violence!" to try to debase the idea of lawful and peaceful protest.  That's why there's no shortage of media clips of "rioters" breaking windows after a protest, because the media-right wants to cast the "voice of dissent" in a specific light.  People have simply taken the same strategy and applied it to these protest marches, but instead of being led by media propagandists, it's generated by social media and related mediums.

 

It should be pretty obvious to anyone that videos of incidents like these aren't useful to remark on the frequency that either side resorts to violence.  To believe otherwise is to take the bait, line and sinker.

 

Oh, and while we're talking about pepper spraying, keep in mind that the only use of LETHAL force at one of these incidents so far was exercised by a right-winger at a Milo rally at UW.  The man that was shot didn't actually want him charged and to go through the traditional justice system,  Meanwhile the shooter(s) were found to have gone to the rally with the deliberate intent of provoking confrontations, and guess what provoked the confrontation that led to the man being shot?  They were pepper-spraying people in the crowd!

 

http://www.seattleti...o-yiannopoulos/

 

Marc and Elizabeth Hokoana had armed themselves — him with pepper-spray and her with a Glock semi-automatic handgun in a holster under her coat — and went to the protest intending to goad demonstrators they knew would be there, King County prosecutors allege. Some witnesses said Marc Hokoana appeared to be intoxicated.
 

According to the charges, the day before Yiannopoulos was scheduled to talk at Kane Hall, Marc Hokoana had messaged a friend on Facebook, stating, “I can’t wait for tomorrow. I’m going to the milo event and if the snowflakes get out off hand I’m going to wade through their ranks and start cracking skulls.”

 

The charges allege Elizabeth Hokoana fired a single round from the handgun into the stomach of 34-year-old Joshua Dukes, a member of the Industrial Workers of the World (IWW), as Dukes confronted Marc Hokoana for using pepper spray in the crowd.

 

Dukes’ attorney, Sarah Lippek, has said her client did not want criminal charges to be filed and had hoped to engage in “restorative justice” with the couple.

“Being shot was devastating for Mr. Dukes, his family, and his community. The Hokoanas harmed many people by their violent actions,” Lippek wrote.

Dukes hopes the couple will take accountability for their actions, Lippek wrote, as well as taking weapons into “already unstable circumstances” and escalating the violence.

She said restorative justice allows dialogue between those who have caused harm and their victims to identify how accountability can be reached.

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TheFrank
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#4154

Posted A week ago

When assholes come together, expect a lot of sh*t.


acmilano
  • acmilano

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#4155

Posted A week ago Edited by acmilano, A week ago.

 


He did gave entire speech on 911 remembrance ceremony at Pentagon:
 
youtube.com/watch?v=O8udSoXSYA4
 
And put on his tweeter.
 
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump

yeah he managed to read a short, clearly prepared-for-him statement during the national moment of silence and he eventually put out a tweet. one of the last prominent people to actually do so. you wanna' give him credit for the the weakest possible show of bare minimum support, go ahead. but it's more evidence of how totally unqualified he is for the job of Commander in Chief.

 

Focusing that Much on Trump didn't really give some results. If Democrat party want to take elections they will need to actually offer something to those 63 million people who voted Trump last year. Something for Rust Belt,for problems of local people. Fix some of their problems. Bashing Trump and Antifa marches wont' do much,just polarise and divide USA more.

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El Diablo
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#4156

Posted A week ago Edited by El Diablo, A week ago.

This Trump hatred has gone to your head. Take a breather for a while. I'll complain about the 20 trillion debt mark we just passed under this new Admin, but when they do a good job like in Texas and Florida I'll give credit to where it's due. Please come back when you got something other than insults.

"this new Admin" didn't do anything for Texas or Florida that literally any other administration would do. you're "giving credit" to Trump like you'd give credit to an infant who used the potty like a big boy instead of dumping in his diaper.

 

the bare minimum is not "a good job."

your Trump praise is irrational. your Trump love has gone to your head.

 

you literally have nothing to counter when people raise legitimate criticism. your blind support of this woefully embarrassing man and his racist policies are getting old fast.

 

Focusing that Much on Trump didn't really give some results. If Democrat party want to take elections they will need to actually offer something to those 63 million people who voted Trump last year. Something for Rust Belt,for problems of local people. Fix some of their problems. Bashing Trump and Antifa marches wont' do much,just polarise and divide USA more.

I hate to break this to you: but the people who voted for Trump have no idea what they want.

 

what are you supposed to "offer" to these low-information assholes who actually believed Trump was the lesser of 2 evils? they're too ignorant to comprehend what is good for them. the map is clear. rural America voted for Trump. popular, urban, modern America voted for Hillary. but because Southern Plantation slave owners were afraid they'd be left behind, we have to kowtow to a minority ratio of people controlling the destiny of the country.

 

f/ck them. they can sleep in this mess of a bed they've made.

I'm not a politician. my job is not to win votes. I have the luxury of calling people stupid when they talk or behave stupidly. I don't need to win anyone over.

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Eutyphro
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#4157

Posted A week ago Edited by Eutyphro, A week ago.

 

The second video you posted is part of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuBMWgMn52I

Where you see she's the aggressor. But that's conveniently cut out.

But I'm kind of confused what Trump supporters pepper spraying has to do with Antifa using it. On the Vice clip of unite the right it is also used aggressively by Antifa against those on the far right multiple times. And not for self defence or deescalation, but completely unprovoked and out of the blue. So what I've asserted is that Antifa uses pepper spray aggressively a lot, which is true, which you want to cover up by a dumb tu quoque, because somehow you have a deep urge to be an apologist for leftist scumbags for some reason it seems. I wasn't defending Trump supporters.
 

It should be pretty obvious to anyone that videos of incidents like these aren't useful to remark on the frequency that either side resorts to violence.

Except I didn't use it for that. I used it to substantiate the fact that Antifa use pepper spray aggressively, which is true. I posted it because a clear and obvious truth was disingenuously being denied. If it had been admitted that Antifa use it all the time, which is true, then I wouldn't have bothered posting these clips.


El Diablo
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#4158

Posted A week ago

Antifa use pepper spray aggressively, which is true.

yes they used pepper spray.

against f/cking Nazi's.

 

context matters...

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#4159

Posted A week ago

yes they used pepper spray.

against f/cking Nazi's.

 

context matters...

No, not just against Neo-Nazi's. Also against Trump supporters or alt-righters.
 

But to go back where this discussion started. It was a response to MTD condemning people for using pepper spray. What I'm pointing out is the hypocrisy in that. But of course the response will be "but we are the virtuous, and therefore rules don't apply to us. Rules only apply to other people. Not us." As always.

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El Diablo
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#4160

Posted A week ago

but you're pretending like Antifa came out of nowhere and was like "f/ck yeah let's hit people with pepper spray."

 

the conclusions you're trying to draw are disingenuous at best.

the movement you're describing is a direct response to the resurgence of White Nationalism.

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Saggy
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#4161

Posted A week ago

 

 

 

It should be pretty obvious to anyone that videos of incidents like these aren't useful to remark on the frequency that either side resorts to violence.

Except I didn't use it for that. I used it to substantiate the fact that Antifa use pepper spray aggressively, which is true. I posted it because a clear and obvious truth was disingenuously being denied. If it had been admitted that Antifa use it all the time, which is true, then I wouldn't have bothered posting these clips.

 

 

Since you apparently have no idea what frequency means....

 

fre·quen·cy
ˈfrēkwənsē/
noun
noun: frequency; plural noun: frequencies; symbol: f
  1. 1.
    the rate at which something occurs or is repeated over a particular period of time or in a given sample.
     

 

It's you like you don't even know what you're rambling about yourself.

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#4162

Posted A week ago

It's you like you don't even know what you're rambling about yourself.

It's pretty silly for you to say that after continually devising strawmen of me, such as that Antifa should be called terrorists, or that Trump supporters never used pepper spray, which are clearly positions I've never argued for.


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#4163

Posted A week ago

 

It's you like you don't even know what you're rambling about yourself.

It's pretty silly for you to say that after continually devising strawmen of me, such as that Antifa should be called terrorists, or that Trump supporters never used pepper spray, which are clearly positions I've never argued for.

 

 

I've not made any straw men, you've simply come to your own faulty interpretations of my post because you keep moving the goal posts about what we're actually arguing about. First it was the frequency in which Antifa uses pepper spray, after you consistently say they "use it all the time" (I'm just gonna skip over the asinine idea that you can use this as a gauge to measure how much they resort to this ) fully implying it's not a tactic being fully embraced by the Right, and meanwhile the whole point of this endeavor is to again paint the left as more violent, despite the irony that the only 100% verified unprovoked-use of pepper spray I could find, was carried out by some right-wing asshole, and ended up escalating into a shooting to boot.

 

You keep acting like the left is just tilting at windmills and don't have any legitimate grievances, so of course you don't see how you're railing against the side that represents what the consensus finds moral. You keep saying you don't condone the pro-Trump white nationalists, but you sure don't seem to have as much negative to say about them from what I've seen.  You're trying to put on this veil of neutrality that's practically see-through.

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#4164

Posted A week ago Edited by Eutyphro, A week ago.

I've not made any straw men, you've simply come to your own faulty interpretations of my post because you keep moving the goal posts about what we're actually arguing about.

It has been about this: "But to go back where this discussion started. It was a response to MTD condemning people for using pepper spray. What I'm pointing out is the hypocrisy in that." all along.
 

First it was the frequency in which Antifa uses pepper spray, after you consistently say they "use it all the time"

Which is true.

 

fully implying it's not a tactic being fully embraced by the Right

This is a really obvious non sequitur.
 

and meanwhile the whole point of this endeavor is to again paint the left as more violent

This is an appeal to motive. It's another fallacy.
 

despite the irony that the only 100% verified unprovoked-use of pepper spray I could find, was carried out by some right-wing asshole

That just exemplifies how ridiculously biased your judgement is.
 

You keep acting like the left is just tilting at windmills and don't have any legitimate grievances,

This is besides the point, but I'll go along with it. Everyone has legitimate grievances. Life is hard, confusing and causes suffering. Society can be a mess. So everyone has legitimate grievances. Does Antifa behaviour originate in 'legitimate grievances'? It originates in some sort of grievance. But what it also originates in is an ideological possession, and a desire for a contrarian lifestyle with no responsibility and only a self imposed sense of virtue. This ideological possession doesn't really originate in grievances as it does for Rust Belt Trump supporters who have been hit by economic decline. Of course there are also ideologically possessed Trump supporters who don't have much grievances as the origin of their ideology. The people with the most grievances, the working class, are increasingly less on the left in Europe or America.
 

You keep saying you don't condone the pro-Trump white nationalists, but you sure don't seem to have as much negative to say about them from what I've seen.  You're trying to put on this veil of neutrality that's practically see-through.

Because if you disagree with Antifa, then you must be a Trump sympathizer right? It's a choice between fascism and communism these days. The middle ground is gone. The fact that I don't criticize the absent white nationalists in this topic, but only the present left wing extremism sympathizers, must mean I love white nationalism. It's not like this topic has some sort of bias or anything. It's a beacon of neutrality.


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#4165

Posted A week ago

 

First it was the frequency in which Antifa uses pepper spray, after you consistently say they "use it all the time"

Which is true.

 

Citation needed, though. Actual citations, not youtube videos.

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#4166

Posted A week ago

"Because if you disagree with Antifa, then you must be a Trump sympathizer right? It's a choice between fascism and communism these days. The middle ground is gone. The fact that I don't criticize the absent white nationalists in this topic, but only the present left wing extremism sympathizers, must mean I love white nationalism. It's not like this topic has some sort of bias or anything. It's a beacon of neutrality."

 

Boy you don't get it do you.  They're not absent at all.  They're the lone voice of dissent toward what they'd also label the "present left wing extremism".  Meanwhile, you're no where near the "middle ground" because you keep buying their brand of bullsh*t and calling it enlightenment. 

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#4167

Posted A week ago Edited by Melchior, A week ago.

"Antifa uses pepper spray unprovoked all the time" has not been proven and is not obvious. You posted two videos, one of which was of the woman wearing the MAGA hat, an instance we both agreed happened. The other one shows the aftermath of a pepper spraying, not who did it or what it was in response to. There's also like no antifa in the video it's just a bunch of random guys. A lot of people don't like the radical right, quelle surprise. 

 

 

What I'm pointing out is the hypocrisy in that. But of course the response will be "but we are the virtuous, and therefore rules don't apply to us. Rules only apply to other people. Not us." As always.

 

Yeah because MTD is totally all about riding around in a truck, rolling the windows down and belting pepper spray at crowds of people. 

 

Like are you listening to yourself? "Oh it was probably self-defense from those antifa goons" when they were riding around in a truck full of pepper spray, at a protest. Why did they bring their truck to the protest? Why did they bring a load of pepper spray? 

 

 

 

This is besides the point, but I'll go along with it. Everyone has legitimate grievances. Life is hard, confusing and causes suffering. Society can be a mess. So everyone has legitimate grievances. Does Antifa behaviour originate in 'legitimate grievances'? It originates in some sort of grievance.

hmm, what could young people be upset about in 2017? Think brain, think! 

 

 

 

 It's not like this topic has some sort of bias or anything. It's a beacon of neutrality.

Well what kind of neutrality do you expect? As if everyone's going to be like "well we've criticised white supremacists enough for one week, let's turn our ire to those damn Communists who think I should make as much as my boss, the savages!" Why should anyone be concerned about Communism?

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#4168

Posted A week ago

"Antifa uses pepper spray unprovoked all the time" has not been proven and is not obvious. You posted two videos, one of which was of the woman wearing the MAGA hat, an instance we both agreed happened. The other one shows the aftermath of a pepper spraying, not who did it or what it was in response to. There's also like no antifa in the video it's just a bunch of random guys. A lot of people don't like the radical right, quelle surprise.

This is what puzzles me about these videos and how they're presented. We have Euty asserting that these individuals are Antifa, but aside from mentioning them in the tagline of the videos what is there to say they're actually Antifa? I mean a black clad protester is a black clad protester, not like they're waving Nazi flags or covered in white supremacist tattoos like the far right have been in some of the recent protests. Even if we ignore the argument from anecdote, and the taking issues with "mis" characterisations which are then immediately corroborated by following comments, very little here is in and of itself evidence of Antifa in particular employing thus tactic.

Also Euty, isn't it a bit disingenuous to post a load of out of context fragments of videos that you say support your views, and then take issue with an out of context fragments of a video used as a rebuttal against you?
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#4169

Posted A week ago

No, not just against Neo-Nazi's. Also against Trump supporters or alt-righters.

What do you think the alt-right is? It's a term coined by Richard Spencer. They're Neo-Nazis in disguise. You'd have to be a f*ckin' moron to buy into the idea that the alt-right is something different from racists and the Neo-Nazis. And those Trump supporters that go out in the street to protest right next to Nazis and the KKK should be excused? You don't get to go protesting along with the Nazis and pretend to be a decent human being. If you march with the Nazis you deserve to get your ass kicked.

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#4170

Posted A week ago

 

But to go back where this discussion started. It was a response to MTD condemning people for using pepper spray.

 

Where did I 'condemn people for using pepper spray'? Did you not see the part I bolded that stated the police stopped them but didn't arrest them? Did you miss that part?


You know full well that if the roles were reversed, there would have been arrests made. I was pointing out that the police clearly side with the far-right, that the police and white supremacists walk hand-in-hand.

 

Supposedly the guy that drove his truck into the crowd wasn't even charged, either.

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